286 réponses à ce sujet

[dtruth]

I'm in the same boat as the OP. I'd probably get the Complete Mass Effect collection (including all 3 titles and DLCs) if Bioware\\EA end up releasing it in that form.  Hopefully the decisions made in the DLC will be done through conversations if we haven't played the DLC?

Modifié par dtruth, 25 juin 2011 - 01:57 .

[KotorEffect3]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Nitpicky, but I thought it was closer to 90,000+ Batarians and over 215,000+ individuals classified as "other" (most likely, at least half of those classified as "other" are non-Batarians).


http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Bahak

I noticed that to but whether or not most of those other slaves were batarians doesn't really matter when discussing this.  It was 300 k sapient beings.

[OdanUrr]

The OP raises a fair point that has been, I believe, mentioned before, if only in passing. Since DLC is sold separately ("accessories not included") one should expect each game to be a self-contained unit, with each telling a different part of a whole. If each installment is missing some integral part of the story, one would have a hard time connecting the dots.

In ME1 this wasn't an issue, since "Bring Down the Sky" and "Pinnacle Station" DLC add content, certainly, but that content isn't a key part of the story you're trying to tell. For instance, it would be a different story if the mission to Virmire had been offered as a DLC since it has direct bearing on the rest of the game (VS, Wrex lives or dies, Shepard talks to Sovereign and realises Saren is being indoctrinated).

In ME2, the situation is somewhat different. "Lair of the Shadow Broker" DLC doesn't really play a key part in the story, to my mind. You could very easily explain in ME3 that Liara was successful in her quest to defeat the Shadow Broker (if it even needs to be mentioned at all) and has, in turn, become the Shadow Broker herself. Let me rephrase, it isn't something that directly affects Shepard.

On the other hand, "Arrival" is expected to play a key part in ME3, largely because of Hackett's own admission that Shepard will have to return to Earth to account for his actions at some point. Assuming the trial alludes to Shepard having destroyed an entire star system during ME2, thus murdering hundreds of thousands of batarians, players that have not played "Arrival" DLC will find themselves wondering when exactly was it that Shepard (their character) found the time to do just that.

An alternative would be that, for players who haven't played Arrival, the Alliance makes no reference to this event and merely accuses Shepard of working with the terrorist organisation known as Cerberus, an equally impressive feat on its own right. In fact, it could even have been the VS who thwarted this particular menace, placing your old squadmate in a similar predicament to your own (that would be funny!). Either way, I believe "Arrival" can be successfully omitted/skipped without that implying a poorer, or lacking, gaming experience in ME3.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 25 juin 2011 - 02:00 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Cowboy_christo wrote...

Zweebs wrote...

 Why are you so stubborn? It's great extra content... they're not just going to hand it out for free.

Not everyone is a cash cow. Also im sure im not the only one, many just loathe the concept of DLC.

What happened to the good ol' Expansions?

My thoughts exactly.  I never buy any DLC either, although I'm pondering buying Witch Hunt for Dragon Age... eventually.  I'll need to save up for it if I decide to get it.  I am a sucker for creating a goody-two-shoes character who falls in love with the... well, the Morrigan.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
You could argue you are sacrificing the rest of the galaxy against their will if you don't blowup that relay.  Sometimes inaction can condemn people to death just as easily as action can.  Their are trillions of lives at stake not just 300k batarians.

No, I'm not doing anything to the rest of the gallaxy. The Reapers are. You can't blame me for their actions just because I chose not to be murderer.

I can't blame you for their actions, but I can blame you for the consequences of your inaction.

Are you pushing a straight Kantian line here?

[leggywillow]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Nitpicky, but I thought it was closer to 90,000+ Batarians and over 215,000+ individuals classified as "other" (most likely, at least half of those classified as "other" are non-Batarians).

this is unacceptable. I need to kill more batarians.

Hell yeah!

My renegade colonist will be disappointed to hear that news.

Prosecutor: You stand accused of causing the deaths of 90,000 batarians and 215,000 other species--
Shepard: OH MY GOD.  Are you seriously telling me there were only 90,000 batarians?!
Lawyer: This isn't helping your case.

[the_one_54321]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's within your power to murder 300k people and benefit from it.

How does Shepard profit from it?  He is put on trial.  You are telling me if you were in that situation you would have allowed the reapers to use the relay and end up killing or enslaving the batarians anyway just to soothe your councious just so you could say "well it wasn't me"

Just because you add a condescending tone to the statement doesn't make it less true.

It wasn't me. That is a statement of fact. Perhaps Sheperd only profits from the Reapers taking longer to kill him along with the rest, but fact that 300k are murdered and others profit from it remains a fact.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
You could argue you are sacrificing the rest of the galaxy against their will if you don't blowup that relay.  Sometimes inaction can condemn people to death just as easily as action can.  Their are trillions of lives at stake not just 300k batarians.

No, I'm not doing anything to the rest of the gallaxy. The Reapers are. You can't blame me for their actions just because I chose not to be murderer.

I can't blame you for their actions, but I can blame you for the consequences of your inaction.

Are you pushing a straight Kantian line here?

I don't know what a Kantian line is. If the law requires me to murder for the benefit of many, then the law can indeed punish me for choosing not to.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

This is appalling.  If I have an in-character reason for not doing them, what then?  Is my character simply not permitted?

What's the in-character reason for refusing to do Arrival? LotSB I can see, but they can just handwave that by saying Liara got it done on her own somehow.

[KotorEffect3]

the_one_54321 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's within your power to murder 300k people and benefit from it.

How does Shepard profit from it?  He is put on trial.  You are telling me if you were in that situation you would have allowed the reapers to use the relay and end up killing or enslaving the batarians anyway just to soothe your councious just so you could say "well it wasn't me"

Just because you add a condescending tone to the statement doesn't make it less true.

It wasn't me. That is a statement of fact. Perhaps Sheperd only profits from the Reapers taking longer to kill him along with the rest, but fact that 300k are murdered and others profit from it remains a fact.

So what would you do if given the choice?

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
No, I'm not doing anything to the rest of the gallaxy. The Reapers are. You can't blame me for their actions just because I chose not to be murderer.

I can't blame you for their actions, but I can blame you for the consequences of your inaction.

Are you pushing a straight Kantian line here?

I don't know what a Kantian line is. If the law requires me to murder for the benefit of many, then the law can indeed punish me for choosing not to.

Heh. I'd love to see them drafting that law.

But yeah, that's pretty much true. The US Army would have been perfectly within its rights to court-martial someone who refused to fly the Hiroshima mission. Or the Tokyo fire-bombing raids, or any of the others where we deliberately roasted civilians.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Lair of the Shadow Broker and Arrival are considered to have happened to Shepard even if you didn't play them.

This is appalling.  If I have an in-character reason for not doing them, what then?  Is my character simply not permitted?

I keep telling you that the ME franchise is not what you consider an RPG.

KotorEffect3 wrote...
So what would you do if given the choice?

It's hard to say. I've had time to sit here and think about it, but if I were really in that position I would not have. Given that, I can say now that I would like to think I would choose to not kill 300k people and relay back to the Alliance that we have massive incoming. Then I'd probably die fighting, or else run back to Earth to try to take part in constructing a defense.

In terms of metagame, it would seem that Sheperd murdering 300k people didn't have a whole hell of a lot of effect on stopping the Reapers anyway.

[sirgippy]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's within your power to murder 300k people and benefit from it.

How does Shepard profit from it?  He is put on trial.  You are telling me if you were in that situation you would have allowed the reapers to use the relay and end up killing or enslaving the batarians anyway just to soothe your councious just so you could say "well it wasn't me"

Agreed, and clearly true. I think there is just a lot of devils advocate going on in this thread.

That said, the DLC is an extension of the game, and it is illogical to enjoy a game, and not be willing to schill a couple of bucks for a continuation of it. Your ethical principle and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

[Praetor Knight]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I noticed that to but whether or not most of those other slaves were batarians doesn't really matter when discussing this.  It was 300 k sapient beings.

Too true. That's why I like to point it out.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
No, I'm not doing anything to the rest of the gallaxy. The Reapers are. You can't blame me for their actions just because I chose not to be murderer.

I can't blame you for their actions, but I can blame you for the consequences of your inaction.

Are you pushing a straight Kantian line here?

I don't know what a Kantian line is. If the law requires me to murder for the benefit of many, then the law can indeed punish me for choosing not to.

Heh. I'd love to see them drafting that law.

But yeah, that's pretty much true. The US Army would have been perfectly within its rights to court-martial someone who refused to fly the Hiroshima mission. Or the Tokyo fire-bombing raids, or any of the others where we deliberately roasted civilians.

And those in themselves are also very different scenarios. One can't really weigh lives. But if I had been ordered to fly one of those missions I cannot honestly say as I would have had the will to refuse to.

There's also the matter of enemy unity and the fact that the 300k on this side of the relay are non-hostiles AND unrelated to the enemy. Rather than being enemy civilians.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 25 juin 2011 - 02:11 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Since my post got buried and I am still bored I am posting again, haha, I win, lol.

To me not buying DLC is like the people (like my aunt) who refused (and maybe still refuse like my aunt) to buy DVDs and stayed with VHS (or even cassette tapes over CDs, or hell even 8tracks over cassettes).

DLC is the natural evolution of the full box expansions, they are cheaper for the devs to make and cheaper for us to buy (look at the full game of Kane and Lynch 2 which was 4 hours long and cost 60 bucks; yet all the story DLC for ME 2 maybe comes to the same [much less if you got it on sale or free even] and is well over 10 hours if you play it right), they can be put out faster and don't take up space on your shelf, lol. It's not a terrible thing, you aren't dumb or anything and I'm not attacking you; but the truth is your stubbornness is causing you to miss out on some awesome stuff (just like my aunt who is constantly missing out on new films because they don't come out on VHS).

Just wanted to drop my two cents because I am bored, take it or leave it.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's hard to say. I've had time to sit here and think about it, but if I were really in that position I would not have. Given that, I can say now that I would like to think I would choose to not kill 300k people and relay back to the Alliance that we have massive incoming. Then I'd probably die fighting, or else run back to Earth to try to take part in constructing a defense.

In terms of metagame, it would seem that Sheperd murdering 300k people didn't have a whole hell of a lot of effect on stopping the Reapers anyway.

Metagaming aside, it's a strange kind of morality that compels you to risk trillions of lives rather than sacrifice 300K of them.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

And those in themselves are also very different scenarios. One can't really weigh lives. But if I had been ordered to fly one of those missions I cannot honestly say as I would have had the will to refuse to.

But that would just mean that you were too weak to follow your own morality, so it's of no real significance.

And you can weigh lives. We do this all the time. Some things that pose risk to others are permitted, others forbidden.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's hard to say. I've had time to sit here and think about it, but if I were really in that position I would not have. Given that, I can say now that I would like to think I would choose to not kill 300k people and relay back to the Alliance that we have massive incoming. Then I'd probably die fighting, or else run back to Earth to try to take part in constructing a defense.

In terms of metagame, it would seem that Sheperd murdering 300k people didn't have a whole hell of a lot of effect on stopping the Reapers anyway.

Metagaming aside, it's a strange kind of morality that compels you to risk trillions of lives rather than sacrifice 300K of them.

Murder is wrong. Murder for profit is wrong. If it's our time to go then it is our time to go.

But it's really not that simple either. Only individual instances can be seen as simple because you do not draw parallels or seek similarities or differences with different individual instances.

In this case, it is a matter the deliberate killing of people that are 100% uninvolved with the actions that follow. It's like picking some random person and sayng "hey you, I'm killing you to save the life of my two friends." In fact, that's exactly what it's like because no single life weighs more than any other single life. Saying 300k<[x]trillions is the same as saying 1<2.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...
And you can weigh lives.

Just because we do it does not mean it is ethical.

[KotorEffect3]

This is kind of an interesting discussion. Anyone reading or involved in this thread a part of your country's military or formerly a part of your country's military? What is your take on the sacrificing 300k batarians to give the galaxy more time? I

[OdanUrr]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

This is kind of an interesting discussion. Anyone reading or involved in this thread a part of your country's military or formerly a part of your country's military? What is your take on the sacrificing 300k batarians to give the galaxy more time? I

The point is kind of moot since the only other alternative to sacrificing 300k batarians is "critical mission failure."

[KotorEffect3]

OdanUrr wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

This is kind of an interesting discussion. Anyone reading or involved in this thread a part of your country's military or formerly a part of your country's military? What is your take on the sacrificing 300k batarians to give the galaxy more time? I

The point is kind of moot since the only other alternative to sacrificing 300k batarians is "critical mission failure."

Oh I agree with you but some that have posted in this thread have a problem with killing 300k batarians.  I don't because of the stakes involved.

[the_one_54321]

OdanUrr wrote...
The point is kind of moot since the only other alternative to sacrificing 300k batarians is "critical mission failure."

That actually really sucks. I would have been very unhappy had I played Arrival.

[KotorEffect3]

the_one_54321 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...
The point is kind of moot since the only other alternative to sacrificing 300k batarians is "critical mission failure."

That actually really sucks. I would have been very unhappy had I played Arrival.

 

Well technicaly you can just wait in arrival but then when the clock ticks down you get a sequence that shows the reapers reaping the galaxy and a citical mission failure screen at the end of that sequence.  You can look it up on youtube.