Modifié par Mykel54, 24 juin 2011 - 10:57 .
Guest_Guest12345_*
scyphozoa wrote...
Yeah I take issue with Dragon Age for this reason. Mass Effect advertised from day one, anyone who dies will stay dead.
But Dragon Age doesn't seem interested in this kind of consistency. Breaking player choices makes me feel like DA writers are not creating a story for players, they are creating a story for themselves.
To be fair, DA was never advertised as importing your choices like ME was, but if DA is going to offer the feature to import choices, then they should Accurately import those choices. By contradicting choices the player has made, you undermine the entire choice and consequence mechanic of your games. Players don't want to hear that their choices are irrelevant and reversed, regardless of if its just 1 choice out of 100 made.
This is partly due to loss aversion. Players feel loss more than they feel gain, so it is important not to make the player feel like they have lost something, in this case, the sense of consequence to making major choices in DAO.
TransientNomad wrote...
I really think it has to do with the amount of people who had Shale/Leliana/etc. live versus those that didn't. Its kinda hard to justify catering to the 1 to 5% of people who killed Shale or Leliana vs the 95% that didn't. I'm not saying they shouldn't or anything if they have the time and resources but you have to see it from the other perspective as well. At a certain point, allocating resources for the extreme minority becomes somewhat counter productive.
In any case, just figure that if Wynne & Shale died in your game, Wynne's spirit brought her back to life and she rebuilt Shale. XP
Modifié par Khayness, 24 juin 2011 - 09:55 .
scyphozoa wrote...
But Dragon Age doesn't seem interested in this kind of consistency. Breaking player choices makes me feel like DA writers are not creating a story for players, they are creating a story for themselves.
Giltspur wrote...
I'd prefer Bioware be very careful about who they let you kill. If it's an execution during a key scene--sure, make a character killable and respect it (Alistair or Loghain executions, Warden sacrifice--those are all good). For me, the Leliana death just wasn't very moving, and so it wasn't worth including in DAO. But there it was. So it's not the resurrection in DA2 that bothers me so much as it was the inclusion of what was essentially a Star Trek red shirt death for a party NPC in DAO.
Guest_Guest12345_*
Captain_Obvious wrote...
scyphozoa wrote...
But Dragon Age doesn't seem interested in this kind of consistency. Breaking player choices makes me feel like DA writers are not creating a story for players, they are creating a story for themselves.
You're assuming that this is relevant to everyone who plays DA2. If they have never played Origins, none of this has any effect on those DA2 games. Ditto for everyone who used a "generic" choose the events of Origins story.
Mykel54 wrote...
From the interview at bioware tv we know that the DLC will contain some old characters, David Gaider mentioned in the interview Shale and Wynne. Both of these could be killed in origins, and i would hate to see bioware pull another plot resurrection (like Anders and Leliana). Here is hoping that bioware don´t ignore player choices this time. Do you think it is too much to hope?
Captain_Obvious wrote...
You're assuming that this is relevant to everyone who plays DA2. If they have never played Origins, none of this has any effect on those DA2 games. Ditto for everyone who used a "generic" choose the events of Origins story.
scyphozoa wrote...
Well no, I assume it is relevant to everyone importing from DAO. Any game has to be a standalone product, but if the ressurections are being made for people who didn't play DAO, then they could easily have replaced Leliana with any other character, bc Leliana wouldn't mean anything to people who didn't play DAO.
Guest_Guest12345_*
Captain_Obvious wrote...
scyphozoa wrote...
Well no, I assume it is relevant to everyone importing from DAO. Any game has to be a standalone product, but if the ressurections are being made for people who didn't play DAO, then they could easily have replaced Leliana with any other character, bc Leliana wouldn't mean anything to people who didn't play DAO.
Why should they have replaced her for people who didn't play Origins? If they didn't play Origins, it wouldn't matter if they used her or not. Sure it would be easy, but why should they bother? They already have a character design, voice, etc.
This is nonsense, IMO. DA writers knowingly chose to retcon player choices. Like I said, DAO never advertised importing your choices, but DA2 did. And DA2 needed to be designed with all permutations from DAO considered. There is no such thing as half-way consistent data import, if you advertise the feature to import player data, then it is expected that data will be accurately reflected, not subject to being retconned when the writers feel it is appropriate.RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...
Sorry TC but Bioware never said importing saves would be full continuity. You'll just have to live with the usual partial continuity unless they have a change of heart.
Modifié par scyphozoa, 24 juin 2011 - 10:26 .
DreamerM wrote...
This whole debate reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbs cartoon I saw where Calvin has a watering can and tells a potted flower, "Ahahaha, you want water? Of course you want water! You need water to live! Well I got a whole can of it right here. I decide if you get water or not! You are completely dependent on me! Without ME you----"
And then he's cut off by a thunder-crack and a torrential downpour.
Moral of the story? It's Bioware's world. We just get to play in it.
RangerSG wrote...
I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...
Mykel54 wrote...
From the interview at bioware tv we know that the DLC will contain some old characters, David Gaider mentioned in the interview Shale and Wynne. Both of these could be killed in origins, and i would hate to see bioware pull another plot resurrection (like Anders and Leliana). Here is hoping that bioware don´t ignore player choices this time. Do you think it is too much to hope?
I like this poster.DreamerM wrote...
This whole debate reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbs cartoon I saw where Calvin has a watering can and tells a potted flower, "Ahahaha, you want water? Of course you want water! You need water to live! Well I got a whole can of it right here. I decide if you get water or not! You are completely dependent on me! Without ME you----"
And then he's cut off by a thunder-crack and a torrential downpour.
Moral of the story? It's Bioware's world. We just get to play in it.
Modifié par DrunkDeadman, 24 juin 2011 - 10:38 .
Kyda wrote...
RangerSG wrote...
I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...
In that case an explanation would have been welcome... and not only in her case but in all the cases of possible living corpses... just for the sake of continuity.
scyphozoa wrote...
This is nonsense, IMO. DA writers knowingly chose to retcon player choices. Like I said, DAO never advertised importing your choices, but DA2 did. And DA2 needed to be designed with all permutations from DAO considered. There is no such thing as half-way consistent data import, if you advertise the feature to import player data, then it is expected that data will be accurately reflected, not subject to being retconned when the writers feel it is appropriate.RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...
Sorry TC but Bioware never said importing saves would be full continuity. You'll just have to live with the usual partial continuity unless they have a change of heart.
RangerSG wrote...
A partial explanation IS given in the DLC. And DG has said a full one will come in time.
Your PC doesn't SEE Nightingale, or get to talk to her. So an 'explanation' doesn't fit the narrative. Why would they stop the scene to say, "Oh, this is why she's still here?" No, an explanation would NOT have been welcome there. It would've blunted the narrative.
Retour en haut