169 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

The Book asunder has wynne and shale who might have been killed in another universe, not in My Thedas however! BOTH are alive and well just wanted to make that clear.
The DLC legacy is bwting act1 and act3. If you finish a game you can play DLC alone, you'll have all companions because is not after the end.
The end of DA2 hasn't change at all and it might never be changed.. pity act 3 is not a very good act at all.

[Mykel54]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

From the interview at bioware tv we know that the DLC will contain some old characters, David Gaider mentioned in the interview Shale and Wynne. Both of these could be killed in origins, and i would hate to see bioware pull another plot resurrection (like Anders and Leliana). Here is hoping that bioware don´t ignore player choices this time. Do you think it is too much to hope?

Are you talking about the interview about his new novel, Asunder?  That is not the DLC.

Damn, you are right. This is what i get for not a being a native speaker. I assumed he was talking about the next DLC, but you are right i re-checked it and Gaider was talking about his new book.

My apologies to everyone, i will change the title of thread to avoid confusion.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

RurouniSaiya-jin wrote...

Not really. In fact, the fact that Bioware made such a big deal that the Mass Effect trilogy would have full continuity suggests the opposite: having your choices reflected 100% accurately in an import save feature is an exception, not the norm. Which is understandable. Full continuity requires a lot more planning into the future as well as limiting the choices that a player can make. 

Yep. Having said that, from a purely business standpoint, it is worth doing the planning or (like you would do for a TV show screenplay for example) leave in a few "outs" for each character. If your main star in a TV show gets pregnant you better have a good explanation for that in the show. Star Trek writers seem to be the masters of that scenario, heh. So I disagree that your choices would be "limited" just because there is full continuity, it depends on how you write it.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 10:56 .

[Kyda]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

 So I disagree that your choices would be "limited" just because there is full continuity, it depends on how you write it.

Exactly my thoughts 

[Luvinn]

scyphozoa wrote...

This is nonsense, IMO. DA writers knowingly chose to retcon player choices. Like I said, DAO never advertised importing your choices, but DA2 did. And DA2 needed to be designed with all permutations from DAO considered. There is no such thing as half-way consistent data import, if you advertise the feature to import player data, then it is expected that data will be accurately reflected, not subject to being retconned when the writers feel it is appropriate.

Amen brother. If they give the option to import your character, then import all the decisions. Do it 100% or not at all, and just give the pre-built, generic choices that they already do for a background story. As is, they shouldn't of even included the option to import. Its like they figured, "oh but who would actually of killed Leliana". What is the actual purpose of importing anyway? It seems the only thing is the scene where you meet Alistar.

[RangerSG]

Kyda wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

A partial explanation IS given in the DLC. And DG has said a full one will come in time.

Your PC doesn't SEE Nightingale, or get to talk to her. So an 'explanation' doesn't fit the narrative. Why would they stop the scene to say, "Oh, this is why she's still here?" No, an explanation would NOT have been welcome there. It would've blunted the narrative.

In which DLC? and what do you mean by your PC doesn’t
see her? You mean Hawke or the warden?... I didn’t mean that she had to
explain... but the codex entry could have explained that... same with Anders...
I didn’t see any explanation as why he was alive after dying in the keep.

Hawke isn't in Kirkwall when Nightingale and Cassandra chat. There's no way he physically sees her. It's an inclusion outside Hawke's POV for dramatic purposes. And no, there shouldn't be a codex, because you don't see her INSIDE the story (without the DLC, which does give a partial explanation).

As for Anders, some have indicated Justice is the answer to that. There's bigger problems with Anders in DA2 than the presumed resurreciton (Like his whole timeline is borked).

And please don't ask for spoilers in a no-spoiler forum.

[Gunderic]

RangerSG wrote...

I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...

Why would the Warden be sloppy? What does being sloppy have to do with the Warden making callous decisions?

Moreover, how do you know what other players' Wardens are like -- what they would or wouldn't do? How can you tell for certain that all Wardens will act in a certain way?

Modifié par Gunderic, 24 juin 2011 - 11:01 .

[Gunderic]

RangerSG wrote...

Kyda wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...

In that case an explanation would have been welcome... and not only in her case but in all the cases of possible living corpses... just for the sake of continuity.

A partial explanation IS given in the DLC. And DG has said a full one will come in time.

So, good, but that won't retroactively make invalidating key player decisions a good thing to do.

I don't mean to say that the writing team's attempts to fill in the gaps of their setting is a bad thing, but really, trying to provide some sort of explanation after a retcon for the sake of internal consistency is the bare minimum you could do.

Modifié par Gunderic, 24 juin 2011 - 11:13 .

[Kyda]

RangerSG wrote...

Hawke isn't in Kirkwall when Nightingale and Cassandra chat. There's no way he physically sees her. It's an inclusion outside Hawke's POV for dramatic purposes. And no, there shouldn't be a codex, because you don't see her INSIDE the story (without the DLC, which does give a partial explanation).

As for Anders, some have indicated Justice is the answer to that. There's bigger problems with Anders in DA2 than the presumed resurreciton (Like his whole timeline is borked).

And please don't ask for spoilers in a no-spoiler forum.

Mmmm... I didn’t ask for a spoiler, I was just wondering which pc didn’t
meet her, something you stated in the first place, not me.... no need to get rude since it wasn´t my intention in the first place


Anyhow, the dlc does come with a codex for her...
so they could explain it there, probably just a few more lines anyway.



And also, I haven´t said there weren’t bigger
issues with Anders... just stating that this is one of them.

[RangerSG]

Gunderic wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...

Why would the Warden be sloppy? What does being sloppy have to do with the Warden making callous decisions?

Moreover, how do you know what other players' Wardens are like -- what they would or wouldn't do? How can you tell for certain that all Wardens will act in a certain way?

Why are you calling what YOUR Warden did once a retcon for ALL players? I've never understood the insistence that a minority choice of DA:O playthroughs should be elevated to canon for all. Especially since there's logical reasons for her survival in game lore without appealing to "retcon."

A "retcon" would be bringing the Archdemon back. They've said on the forum the reason for Leliana's survival will be explained in due course. How many times does the same scene have to be dredged up when they've already addressed it?

[Huntress]

Mykel54 wrote...

In DA2 we had several  plot resurrections (like Anders and Leliana). Here
is hoping that bioware don´t ignore player choices next time, and if there are returning characters in any future game or DLC content, make the death of characters meaningful. Do you
think it is too much to hope?

None of this characters have died on any of my games, are you trying to say that because you killed them, they shouldn't appear on my games?
My warden have leliana as Li, seen her in DA2 make perfect sense to me.
Reading about Wynne and Shale in Tavinter makes sense to me, seen Anders alive make sense to me, not getting nat quest in act2 make sense to me.. where are the ressurections? I think you made the wrong choices in DAO.:innocent:

[Gunderic]

RangerSG wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...

Why would the Warden be sloppy? What does being sloppy have to do with the Warden making callous decisions?

Moreover, how do you know what other players' Wardens are like -- what they would or wouldn't do? How can you tell for certain that all Wardens will act in a certain way?

Why are you calling what YOUR Warden did once a retcon for ALL players? I've never understood the insistence that a minority choice of DA:O playthroughs should be elevated to canon for all. Especially since there's logical reasons for her survival in game lore without appealing to "retcon."

I'm not. I'm talking about a retcon made to the Dragon Age: Origins story, more specifically, to a plot branch that is available to all players. I see no discernible reason to call it a retcon for "my Warden" ( though I've not even brought up this subject; you have ) since the term's use is applied outside any sort of roleplaying purposes.

A "retcon" would be bringing the Archdemon back. They've said on the forum the reason for Leliana's survival will be explained in due course. How many times does the same scene have to be dredged up when they've already addressed it?

You see, this is exactly  what I was referring to. The idea of a plot hole having "already [been] addressed" that will become "explained in due course" with "logical reasons" does not in any way invalidate what a retcon is to
a story.

For something to be considered a retcon, it is required that new information from the same setting/universe/continuity to be revealed, so that it shifts interpretation with regard to previous events, all while 'preserving continuity'. Nothing you have said exempts the decision in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest from being a 'retcon', no matter how many magical healing crystals the writing team can come up with.

Source:

/ret'kon/ retroactive continuity. 

The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals" things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the "facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of"Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.

Modifié par Gunderic, 25 juin 2011 - 12:00 .

[kglaser]

Are you guys saying that if in my son's game Zevran died, and then he imports it into DA2...and you run into Zevran?
If that's what you are saying, then...wow. I just...wow. <_<
Does that really happen?  Please tell me that wouldn't happen.

Modifié par kglaser, 24 juin 2011 - 11:56 .

[lv12medic]

I'm half and half about this issue. On one hand a dead character should be dead for obvious reasons, but on the other hand, you kill off a main companion character that already has a lot of development time devoted to said character, its probably easier and cheaper to use an established character than make a new one. With that said, if dead people do show up, it would be nice if there was a plausible explanation of some kind (may not be overly believable but oh well). Something like, "I fought the Warden and the Warden won and left me on the cold hard ground in the Sacred Urn room, when I woke, the Warden was gone and I booked it to Kirkwall."

Or something like that.

[Icinix]

I don't like the character resurrection issue --

BUT - I would prefer that to the Character butchering of Anders.

Please, if you must, raise up every character that ever died in any of the DA games - BUT DO NOT destroy the character they were, especially to get some cheap impact moment.

[TEWR]

Bring back Duncan and his beard of unmitigated badassery and epicness! I don't care if you confirmed he's dead Gaider, bring him back!


Please?

[Huntress]

Duncan died in everyones game, sorry can't do? Is like asking for cailan back and get him marry with celine in orlais. lol!

[seraphymon]

i think i remember the explanation given for Anders, was that it was only someone who looked like him died at the keep, and the real anders made it out alive. Cheap and lazy i think.

[Huntress]

kglaser wrote...

Are you guys saying that if in my son's game Zevran died, and then he imports it into DA2...and you run into Zevran?
If that's what you are saying, then...wow. I just...wow. <_<
Does that really happen?  Please tell me that wouldn't happen.

I can't answer that.. I haven't killed him, he is too.. yum!! tell you what, why don't you try playing you're son game and check it out for us?

[SleepyPerson]

I thought the reason Anders was resurrected, if he died, was because Justice joined with him while he was dying. Just like what Wynne tells the warden about her being resurrected by the spirit that watched over her when she was killed by a demon in the circle tower.

However Leliana's resurrection doesn't make sense. Maybe the Guardian saved her by using the ashes?

@kglaser If you killed Zevran he won't be in DA2.

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 25 juin 2011 - 12:21 .

[seraphymon]

people keep saying the ashes for leliana but arent they corrupted by pouring the blood on them already?

[Arthur Cousland]

Perhaps Leliana's corpse got back up after the warden left and glued her head back on?

Seriously, if the writers at Bioware think that there might be a chance of a character reappearing in a future installment in the series, then don't make them killable. They made the mistake with Origins in giving you the option to kill everyone but Morrigan. In that case, no one should have made a return appearance in DA2, or they shouldn't have been killable in the first place. Honestly, I don't think anyone at Bioware really cares.

[Giggles_Manically]

kglaser wrote...

Are you guys saying that if in my son's game Zevran died, and then he imports it into DA2...and you run into Zevran?
If that's what you are saying, then...wow. I just...wow. <_<
Does that really happen?  Please tell me that wouldn't happen.

Its a bug in his case.

Fixed I believe.

For Leliana though?
Nope its not.

Myself?
I dont give a ****.
I have read comics since I was a lot younger.

Dead people always find a way to come back.
ALWAYS. 

[Kyda]

Ok... but the thing is... if you make them come back, then give us an explanation. I didn’t kill any of my companions in DA:O, and Ander´s died because of a bug but my choices aren’t supposed to matter more than the choices of other players who decided they would role-play a warden differently. Alistair didn’t die for everybody and still he remained dead for the games where he was supposed to, it should be so hard to either do that with all the characters or at least give a short phrase in the codex of those that made it back to life saying... "and even though she/he was left to die in the mountain/road/etc a fellow dragon worshiper/crow/insert possible good Samaritan cured her/his wounds and gave her/him shelter til she/he was recovered..."
The thing with Anders and Justice is that the prologues don´t leave much to chance.