169 réponses à ce sujet

[Hatchetman77]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Hilariously, Morrigan was unkillable until Witch Hunt came out. So when she makes her reappearance we're either going to have to assume she just survived the murder knife or that Witch Hunt never happened.

Ok, with Morrigan you stab her and she falls backwards (still alive with that disbelieving look on her face) into the portal.  I think it would be a bigger shock to players if that actually turned out to kill her rather than her still being alive.  The classic comic convention of "if there's no body then they're not dead" comes into play here.  It's not like you left a decapiated Morrigan on the floor of a temple holding an ancient relic that apparently healed her after you dessicrated it and took away all its healing powers.

[PsychoBlonde]

Drasanil wrote...
 They could have just introduced a new chantry hating templar bothering mage and it wouldn’t have made a lick of difference.

Yes, it might actually have made the character MORE interesting, because then you'd have questions like, is this guy lying about being possessed by a benevolent spirit?  Is he actually an abomination?  Etc.  It would have made his increasingly-crazy actions more worrisome. 

[Mike 9987]

wynne is most likely dead by the end of da2 anyway

[Wolfborn Son]

The import feature in DAII is little more than fan service, something added to the game to give the player the illusion that his choice mattered. It didn't. And that's okay. It doesn't have to. Baldur's Gate II didn't give a **** what you did the first game. And its still the best goddamn RPG of all time.

Personally, when it comes to a cRPG, all I ask for is a good story that I can play along with. If I wanted a game that interacted with my every choice... Well, I'd play table top, not a video game.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Personally, I just wish that they didn't bring all these characters back at all. I was fine leaving Cullen to his epilogue fate, having Anders be a lovable subversive rogue back in Ferelden, and Merrill being a keeper's first whose only meaningful interaction with the player was refusing to accept the aid of one of the hunters until you got permission from Marethari. I just don't understand BioWare's strange desire to shoehorn characters from one game into the next, while completely ignoring their characterization and the events that happened to them in the first game. This is especially glaring when the NPC could have died, but it's always annoying to me.

[Dubya75]

In response to OP, I would say that the appearance of Leliana and Zevran was absolutely ridiculous, as it added NOTHING to the story and their appearance and Leliana's animation was just stupid. I cringe everytime I hear her heavy footsteps...
Nathaniel and Alistair's appearance in the game made a bit more sense, but it was still done quite shoddy IMHO.
Anders and Flemeth on the other hand was successfully brought back in (although I hope we see more of Flemeth).

[Dragonageloverrr]

i didnt kill off anyone who got Resurrected in the game so im fine

[In Exile]

scyphozoa wrote...
Essentially, anything that has happened in DAO or DA2 is subject to being contradicted in future titles when the writers feel it is worthwhile or appropriate. Partial consistency isn't an acceptable means to implement a data import feature. If the data is imported then it should be reflected accurately, or not at all.

But things like Leliana being alive when killed rely on a very particular outcome (killing her in the sacred ashes questline) and some very specific assumptions (that the magical healing room that caused multiple illusions couldn't raise the rogue whose skills included feign death from the dead).

All i can say is I hope it doesn't happen again in the future. I'm not interested in seeing any of the choices I have made in DAO or DA2 contradicted in DA3, for any reason.

Why does a choice being contradicted = a choice not panning out the way you thought? I agree with you that it's not satisfying when that happens, but why is it a contradiction?

[In Exile]

Hatchetman77 wrote...
It's not like you left a decapiated Morrigan on the floor of a temple holding an ancient relic that apparently healed her after you dessicrated it and took away all its healing powers.

Man, yeah, it's like - that crazy raving dude who thought a dragon was Andraste reborn might have been wrong about something. That's silly. How could a crazy raving ax dude who worships a dragon be wrong?

[Kyda]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

Baldur's Gate II didn't give a **** what you did the first game. And its still the best goddamn RPG of all time.

Xzar comes to mind (also Viconia), but even there you could tell him: "didn´t I kill you?" and he would reply something. Somehow they acknowledged the choices from your first game and that´s one way to at least leave you content.

For those talking about haters and making our own game I first would like to settle that I am actually (as I said before) enjoying this game quite a lot, I am playing it for the third time and I intend to keep on playing it for a while. Second I have no idea how to make a game and I don’t fool myself thinking that I could do something better than bioware if I could. I have been a fan of their games ever since I fell in love with Baldur’s Gate 2. Having said that it doesn’t mean that I have to blindly love every single part of their games just because they are Bioware. My opinions are only trying to improve (if they ever feel like reading feedback, that I believed they said they do) little (and not so little sometimes) things that could make the game more enjoyable for some people and at the same time not less enjoyable for others since if they gave the explanations about the possible deaths for those who actually killed the characters it wouldn’t change the game for those who didn’t kill them. It is all about acknowledging choices: yours, mines and other people´s.

[metalgirl-1]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

Personally, I just wish that they didn't bring all these characters back at all. I was fine leaving Cullen to his epilogue fate, having Anders be a lovable subversive rogue back in Ferelden, and Merrill being a keeper's first whose only meaningful interaction with the player was refusing to accept the aid of one of the hunters until you got permission from Marethari. I just don't understand BioWare's strange desire to shoehorn characters from one game into the next, while completely ignoring their characterization and the events that happened to them in the first game. This is especially glaring when the NPC could have died, but it's always annoying to me.

This. I was perfectly fine with Cullen's, Anders' and Merril's fates in Origins and I don't really understand the need to elaborate on them further. Though I think Cullen's and Anders' resurrection was more of an extreme case of fanservice. As for Merril I don't understand why they bought her back, and I liked her personality better in Origins even though I only got to see it for like 15 minutes or something.

[DreamerM]

Dubya75 wrote...

In response to OP, I would say that the appearance of Leliana and Zevran was absolutely ridiculous, as it added NOTHING to the story and their appearance and Leliana's animation was just stupid. I cringe everytime I hear her heavy footsteps...
Nathaniel and Alistair's appearance in the game made a bit more sense, but it was still done quite shoddy IMHO.
Anders and Flemeth on the other hand was successfully brought back in (although I hope we see more of Flemeth).

Even Alistair and Nathaniel would be pretty meaningless if they didn't happen to be familiar faces from a previous game. Well, if Alistair turns up as a Gray Warden, given that they are up to something mysterious anyway, that makes sense, but why did King Alistair turn up? Did he REALLY travel all that way just to chat up the Champion and add another voice to the chorus declaring that they get bad vibes from Meredith?

Leilianna's been a spy since the beginning (very obvious) but what did Zevran have to do with anything, really?

[21121313]

Being someone who's been around since gaming started and played numerous P+P games i was always believed that....

Reality: you die, you are dead unless you are fortunate enough to be medically brought back to life.

Fantasy: The only bounds are the ones created by those who developed the idea behind the game.

These guys go out of their way to make great games like the DA and ME franchises and all some people can do is complain. The more material that is poured into a series the harder it's going to be to keep the continuity. You are expecting perfection from humans....humans live in reality, we have to use our imagination to enjoy fantasy.

Some people are taking this way too seriously....

I'd love to see a story or three developed by some of the people complaining about this with full continuity while reminding themselves of how many people they are going to have to keep happy all at the same time.....

As for me, Leliana is (and always will be) my  after I got the trophies for the others. I was extremely glad to see her back...and while i admit i didn't much care for Alistair's whining attitude his VA is awesome and it was worth having him back just to hear him talk. I couldn't stand Anders(in DA2) to be honest(i liked Justice much more), and after my first play i took the "knife" route every time after that. I would have preferred a walking zombie called Justice instead....but i understood that was part of the story at the end.

After considering the above, i still believe that even if i like or don't like a character it's totally up to Bioware to decide to bring him/her back and how they do it. Like most i prefer they do it as right and proper as possible, but i don't expect or demand perfection out of it. At the end of the day one character isn't going to destroy my opinion of any game...but when it starts to i might have to consider giving up fantasy for reality.

[Tirfan]

Perhaps I just hate Leliana too much, but I just can't stand even her cameo-appearance, give me the chance to kill her for good in DA3 and I will buy that game no matter how much it will suck, and I will be happy. (and well, honestly, it did not ruin the game for me, but it was kind of a finishing blow that sent me to whine at these forums.)

[Phaelducan]

In all fairness, regarding Lelianna.... she DID have her own Origins DLC. It was pretty clear that Bioware thought she was important even before DA2.

As far as DA2... I thought her appearance was pretty cool. It fit with her background (unless you killed her during Sacred Ashes), and I thought it was a nice touch. What did confuse me though was that it appeared that it was part of the Sebastian Vael questline... so if you didn't pre-order you don't get the quest unless you buy S-bass separately?

In any case, Lelianna was never my preferred LI for either gender, but I did like the character... although she was specced poorly and until Awakenings Archery was lame.

[LobselVith8]

RangerSG wrote...

I've never bought this argument. Leliana in particular, seeing as the place she is "killed" is pretty obviously not normal. But of course, the PC couldn't have left her for dead and she survive. That 'never' happens. Sorry, I don't even see that as a "resurrection." I see that as a healing done after the PC left the room. After all, if the PC was vile enough to make the choice that led to that scene, they're probably sloppy enough to not take her corpse away from the Temple either...

If Leliana is trying to murder The Warden, why is he vile? If The Warden decided to make a choice to avoid a fight with Father Kolgrim and his Disciples, or wanted to prevent an organization they view as evil from gaining any more power, then why is The Warden vile for defending himself against a murder attempt? As for rectonning the decision for players who killed her, I don't understand why they opted to negate that choice and force a canon for everyone. I anticipate that the 'story' narrative of Dragon Age 2 will allow the writers to recton any decisions they want to for the future much more easily. Given how anti-mage Leliana is now and how vile she is for thinking the slaughter of an entire city is preferable to mage autonomy, I wouldn't mind putting an end to her.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Leliana is trying to murder The Warden, why is he vile?

Why is Leliana a murderer for defending her beliefs?

If The Warden decided to make a choice to avoid a fight with Father Kolgrim and his Disciples, or wanted to prevent an organization they view as evil from gaining any more power, then why is The Warden vile for defending himself against a murder attempt?

If the Warden believes the blight is the most important threat, and fighting Kolgrim is unjustified why should this belief on the part of the Warden work as a justification for an Andrastian?

As for rectonning the decision for players who killed her, I don't understand why they opted to negate that choice and force a canon for everyone. I anticipate that the 'story' narrative of Dragon Age 2 will allow the writers to recton any decisions they want to for the future much more easily.

They didn't force a cannon. Just like with the thermal clips in ME2, Bioware will have an explanation. Players will be free to like it or hate it, but Bioware doesn't overwrite actions; they just have the consequences always narrow to one thread. They did that in DA:O too.

Given how anti-mage Leliana is now and how vile she is for thinking the slaughter of an entire city is preferable to mage autonomy, I wouldn't mind putting an end to her.

The mages that immediately tried to kill her when she arrived? It's pretty clear that whatever faction she's working against is already at war with the Chantry prior to Kirkwall.

ETA:

The thing I find surprising is the potential shock people have at Leliana changing in DA2. She was always the fake trickster in DA:O; she just managed to be a lot more endearing there, I suppose.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 juin 2011 - 04:09 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Leliana is trying to murder The Warden, why is he vile?

Why is Leliana a murderer for defending her beliefs?

Leliana isn't defending her beliefs, she's trying to murder the only person who can unite the land against the Blight because he committed an action that she didn't agree with.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If The Warden decided to make a choice to avoid a fight with Father Kolgrim and his Disciples, or wanted to prevent an organization they view as evil from gaining any more power, then why is The Warden vile for defending himself against a murder attempt?

If the Warden believes the blight is the most important threat, and fighting Kolgrim is unjustified why should this belief on the part of the Warden work as a justification for an Andrastian?

I didn't say fighting Kolgrim was unjustified, I said that The Warden could be trying to avoid a violent confrontation with a man who seems to have a High Dragon readily avaliable.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for rectonning the decision for players who killed her, I don't understand why they opted to negate that choice and force a canon for everyone. I anticipate that the 'story' narrative of Dragon Age 2 will allow the writers to recton any decisions they want to for the future much more easily.

They didn't force a cannon. Just like with the thermal clips in ME2, Bioware will have an explanation. Players will be free to like it or hate it, but Bioware doesn't overwrite actions; they just have the consequences always narrow to one thread. They did that in DA:O too.

Actually, they did force a canon when they brought Oghren back from the dead for players who killed him in Awakening, when they had "not recruited" Anders meet "killed at the Dragonbone Wastes" Justice, and when the deceased Leliana was ressurected to have a cameo in DA2. Forcing a narrative that contradicts player choices is indeed forcing a canon into the storyline.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Given how anti-mage Leliana is now and how vile she is for thinking the slaughter of an entire city is preferable to mage autonomy, I wouldn't mind putting an end to her.

The mages that immediately tried to kill her when she arrived? It's pretty clear that whatever faction she's working against is already at war with the Chantry prior to Kirkwall.

ETA:

The thing I find surprising is the potential shock people have at Leliana changing in DA2. She was always the fake trickster in DA:O; she just managed to be a lot more endearing there, I suppose.

I'm not talking about the Resolutionists, I'm talking about how Leliana is planning on giving a one-sided report that ignores the Knight-Commander turned dictator and blames the unrest in the city-state entirely on a group that we only see once. My issue is with the fact that Leliana is going to recommend an Exalted March because mages might gain autonomy in Kirkwall.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not talking about the Resolutionists, I'm talking about how Leliana is planning on giving a one-sided report that ignores the Knight-Commander turned dictator and blames the unrest in the city-state entirely on a group that we only see once. My issue is with the fact that Leliana is going to recommend an Exalted March because mages might gain autonomy in Kirkwall.

You have no idea what Leliana is going to report or recommend.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 juin 2011 - 08:18 .

[TEWR]

Hatchetman77 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Hilariously, Morrigan was unkillable until Witch Hunt came out. So when she makes her reappearance we're either going to have to assume she just survived the murder knife or that Witch Hunt never happened.

Ok, with Morrigan you stab her and she falls backwards (still alive with that disbelieving look on her face) into the portal.  I think it would be a bigger shock to players if that actually turned out to kill her rather than her still being alive.  The classic comic convention of "if there's no body then they're not dead" comes into play here.  It's not like you left a decapiated Morrigan on the floor of a temple holding an ancient relic that apparently healed her after you dessicrated it and took away all its healing powers.

So you're arguing that killing animations are canon? Good, then you're arguing that goopy lego explosions are canon.

I'm sorry but death animations are a fancy game mechanic, not actual lore. I'm not going to believe that a game mechanic is lore because then I have to believe that Hawke is so powerful everyone he touches explodes into lego bits and loses their hair. It's not canon, it's a game mechanic. Gameplay =/= lore.

For one thing, Leliana's a Bard. Lying is her specialty, and Rogues get the ability to Feign Death.

For another, the ashes are magical. We have no idea what defiling them actually does. People who chose to believe Kolgrim are believing that a raving lunatic who drinks dragon blood, worships a dragon, and isn't a mage knows about things magical. For all we know the dragon blood did nothing, or may have actually amplified the healing properties.

God forbid that Kolgrim could've been wrong, because then the forums will explode with the classic "Bioware did a retcon!! I'm so fed up with them!" response.

Third, I find it hard to believe that the Warden would kill a friend and potentially the woman he loves. It's far more likely he just left her injured, and she went to the Ashes. The Warden didn't kneel down and take her pulse saying "Welp, she's dead." He just left. That's it. There is absolutely no way we could've known whether we had actually killed her or not.

Fourth, I remember somewhere in the DA universe they said that the soul doesn't immediately leave the body upon death. So what if she really was chosen by the Maker? What if the Maker actually intervened?

You can believe you killed her, but without proof there isn't enough to say "I killed her permanently. That's that."

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Third, I find it hard to believe that the Warden would kill a friend and potentially the woman he loves. It's far more likely he just left her injured, and she went to the Ashes. The Warden didn't kneel down and take her pulse saying "Welp, she's dead." He just left. That's it. There is absolutely no way we could've known whether we had actually killed her or not.

Wouldn't that depend on the Warden? There are eviiiiil Wardens out there. Or Wardens who don't like her. Or don't care enough.

Otherwise, fine points you made, ser. Since we didn't see her funeral and cremation, there's no absolute proof she's dead. After all, there are RL people who fake death successfully (until they get caught) even with all the modern means and tools for identification and investigation we have.

[TEWR]

Sutekh wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Third, I find it hard to believe that the Warden would kill a friend and potentially the woman he loves. It's far more likely he just left her injured, and she went to the Ashes. The Warden didn't kneel down and take her pulse saying "Welp, she's dead." He just left. That's it. There is absolutely no way we could've known whether we had actually killed her or not.

Wouldn't that depend on the Warden? There are eviiiiil Wardens out there. Or Wardens who don't like her. Or don't care enough.

Otherwise, fine points you made, ser. Since we didn't see her funeral and cremation, there's no absolute proof she's dead. After all, there are RL people who fake death successfully (until they get caught) even with all the modern means and tools for identification and investigation we have.

True. Some Wardens may just not like her. But he/she still may have left her for dead, thinking that after defiling the Ashes she would've indeed died from her wounds. But since a Warden who defiled the Ashes is taking the word of a lunatic who worships dragons and isn't a mage yet claims to know about things magical, we don't know if the Ashes truly lost their power.

Especially since Oghren says that the immense amount of lyrium in the mountain could've been what gave the Ashes their power, and not the Maker or Andraste.

[Wulfram]

I'm sorry, but if a death animation plays and the codex says they're dead, then they should be counted dead. Lack of a detailed autopsy doesn't change that.

I'm not against the occasional retcon, but it is a retcon.

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

True. Some Wardens may just not like her. But he/she still may have left her for dead, thinking that after defiling the Ashes she would've indeed died from her wounds. But since a Warden who defiled the Ashes is taking the word of a lunatic who worships dragons and isn't a mage yet claims to know about things magical, we don't know if the Ashes truly lost their power.

Especially since Oghren says that the immense amount of lyrium in the mountain could've been what gave the Ashes their power, and not the Maker or Andraste.

I was refering specifically to "his was his friend and maybe lover".

As for the ashes, it always astounds me how people take Kolgrim's words at face value. This man worships a dragon, thinks it's some reincarnation of Andraste. He believes that dragon blood would destroy the ashes, without ever having made any kind of experimentation (that we know of). He's gullible enough to let you pass through on your good word alone, even though you just decimated 9/10th of his True Believers, and you believe him? [Not you-you, they-you]

With that immense power of persuasion of his, he should have converted to bridge selling. Would have been quite successfull.