169 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sorry, but if a death animation plays and the codex says they're dead, then they should be counted dead. Lack of a detailed autopsy doesn't change that.

I'm not against the occasional retcon, but it is a retcon.

Like I said, those who argue that death animations in Origins are canon are arguing that goop explosions are canon. You can't say one is canon and the other isn't.

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not talking about the Resolutionists, I'm talking about how Leliana is planning on giving a one-sided report that ignores the Knight-Commander turned dictator and blames the unrest in the city-state entirely on a group that we only see once. My issue is with the fact that Leliana is going to recommend an Exalted March because mages might gain autonomy in Kirkwall.

You have no idea what Leliana is going to report or recommend.

You seem to have forgotten that Leliana tells Hawke that there's going to be an Exalted March and that Grand Cleric Elthina should leave the city-state for her safety after she blamed one group for all the troubles that were going on in Kirkwall with her inept investigative skills.

[Demx]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sorry, but if a death animation plays and the codex says they're dead, then they should be counted dead. Lack of a detailed autopsy doesn't change that.

I'm not against the occasional retcon, but it is a retcon.

Like I said, those who argue that death animations in Origins are canon are arguing that goop explosions are canon. You can't say one is canon and the other isn't.

Who cares about animations, when in actuality the codex for Leliana says

"When <FirstName/> corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian."

[Sutekh]

Siradix wrote...

Who cares about animations, when in actuality the codex for Leliana says

"When <FirstName/> corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian."

And who's to say that the codex reflects the Truth, and not PC's perception of it? After all, characters codices update each time you (the PC) learn something new about said char, and only contain what you know at a given moment.

[edit] Bad formulation

Modifié par Sutekh, 28 juin 2011 - 09:35 .

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Like I said, those who argue that death animations in Origins are canon are arguing that goop explosions are canon. You can't say one is canon and the other isn't.

Whether or not you want to accept the precise details of the death animations, they convey to the player the canon information that the character in question is dead.  When paired with an unequivocal statement in the codex which shows no signs of being in character, the player should be able to treat the death of that character as fact.

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to have forgotten that
Leliana tells Hawke that there's going to be an Exalted March and that
Grand Cleric Elthina should leave the city-state for her safety after
she blamed one group for all the troubles that were going on in Kirkwall
with her inept investigative skills.

Leliana does not tell Hawke that there's going to be an Exalted March, nor does she endorse such an idea.

Her belief that the Grand Cleric is not safe in Kirkwall seems quite valid, given subsequent events.

[Kyda]

Let us say she survived because of the Maker, or the Ashes, or any other miracle that in fact didn’t happened during the gameplay... Let’s say that the codex was wrong and her death was not permanent... then if they can write something that actually never truly happened (her death, Anders death, Justice death, etc) is it so hard to write an explanation in the codex for the "change of plans"? It is not like most of us would mind keeping the resurrections as long as there is a sentence to explain it. Leliana already has a Codex in DA2 (with the DLC), it could be written there... there is no point in explaining her (or others) coming back to life in the forums, there are plenty of players who don’t come here... and besides it is a short in game explanation and not a discussion of possibilities or a general argument where everybody gets to speculate about it.

[TEWR]

Codex entry for Leliana in DA2:


There are many tales of Leliana, Orlesian adventuress and bard, the most recent being that she fought against the Fifth Blight. Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated… or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen.

[Sutekh]

Wulfram wrote...

When paired with an unequivocal statement in the codex which shows no signs of being in character, the player should be able to treat the death of that character as fact.

If that was the case, you'd know everything about your companions right from the start, including which gift they prefer, things about their past you only learn through dialogue etc... Those things appear in the codex only once you know them. The companions codices are limited to the character's knowledge and perception. Actually, most if not all codices are limited to PC's knowledge and perception, when you think of it (in DAO).

[Kyda]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Codex entry for Leliana in DA2:


There are many tales of Leliana, Orlesian adventuress and bard, the most recent being that she fought against the Fifth Blight. Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated… or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen.

Wow! Well her case is closed for me then... is it in all cases like that?... I would have sworn that i actually read her codex... i missed it big time!!
 
Thanks, i no longer have anything to say about her.

Edit: now i know why i haven´t seen that, it´s because she never died in my games and the "some even say..." part isnt there. But regardless there is an explanation and that´s great.

Modifié par Kyda, 28 juin 2011 - 10:24 .

[Wulfram]

I was under the impression that the alternative Leliana codices don't actually appear in game, unless that's been fixed in the latest patch.

edit:@Sutekh - they reflect what the PC knows, certainly.  But they're still not in character, which means they shouldn't actually lie.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 juin 2011 - 10:27 .

[TEWR]

Kyda wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Codex entry for Leliana in DA2:


There are many tales of Leliana, Orlesian adventuress and bard, the most recent being that she fought against the Fifth Blight. Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated… or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen.

Wow! Well her case is closed for me then... is it in all cases like that?... I would have sworn that i actually read her codex... i missed it big time!!
 
Thanks, i no longer have anything to say about her.

The game accounts for all versions of Leliana, depending on which path you chose 


If imported from a save where the Warden didn't romance Leliana:


Many stories have been told of Leliana; some say she fought alongside the Hero of Ferelden against the Blight prior to serving at the right hand of the Divine. Even that is hearsay-the only thing known for certain is that the bard is often seen at the Divine's side in Val Royeaux. This has caused no small degree of alarm in the Chantry's inner circle: Does the Divine have a plan of her own? What might Leliana's part be? The truth remains to be seen.


If imported from a save where the Warden romanced Leliana:

Leliana is a legendary adventuress in Thedas, a heroine of the Fifth Blight and reportedly the Hero of Ferelden's lover. Some stories say she yet remains at the Hero of Ferelden's side, but other tales from Val Royeaux say she'd been spotted in the company of Divine Justinia. Rumors within the Chantry claim the Divine has a plan of her own—one that involves Leliana as her personal agent—but few know what such a plan might entail. Given that Leliana is a master storyteller, it's not impossible that these rumors are of her own creation. The truth remains to be seen.

If imported from a save where Leliana fought and was killed by the Warden after the defiling of the Sacred Ashes of Andraste:

There are many tales of Leliana, Orlesian adventuress and bard, the most recent being that she fought against the Fifth Blight. Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated… or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen.

If imported from a save where Leliana wasn't recruited before the Destruction of Lothering or left the Warden due to disapproval:

Many stories are told of Leliana; some say she fled the Blight in Ferelden only to serve as the right hand of Divine Justinia. The only fact known for certain is that the Orlesian bard is often seen at the Divine's side in Val Royeaux. This has caused no small degree of alarm in the Chantry's inner circles: Does the Divine have a plan of her own? What might Leliana's part be? The truth remains to be seen.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 juin 2011 - 10:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana does not tell Hawke that there's going to be an Exalted March, nor does she endorse such an idea.

Her belief that the Grand Cleric is not safe in Kirkwall seems quite valid, given subsequent events.

Leliana does indeed endorse such an idea, which is the reason why Elthina, Hawke, and Sebastian end up discussing the possible Exalted March against Kirkwall following the encounter with Leliana. In fact, Sebastian tells Elthina: "You were right. The Divine will be taking action against Kirkwall." It's why Sebastian tells her to take the holy relics and leave Kirkwall.

[Pasquale1234]

Sutekh wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

When paired with an unequivocal statement in the codex which shows no signs of being in character, the player should be able to treat the death of that character as fact.

If that was the case, you'd know everything about your companions right from the start, including which gift they prefer, things about their past you only learn through dialogue etc... Those things appear in the codex only once you know them. The companions codices are limited to the character's knowledge and perception. Actually, most if not all codices are limited to PC's knowledge and perception, when you think of it (in DAO).

Actually, everything about DA2 is brought to us by an unreliable narrator...

Edit:  DA3: Varric vs Leliana - The Clash of the Tale Tellers.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 28 juin 2011 - 10:37 .

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana does indeed endorse such an idea, which is the reason why Elthina, Hawke, and Sebastian end up discussing the possible Exalted March against Kirkwall following the encounter with Leliana. In fact, Sebastian tells Elthina: "You were right. The Divine will be taking action against Kirkwall." It's why Sebastian tells her to take the holy relics and leave Kirkwall.

If you actually listen to what Leliana says, she does not endorse any Exalted March.  She says

"Divine Justinia takes the situation here very seriously.  She believes it is the worst threat to Thedas since the Qunari invaded"
"The whole world is watching Kirkwall.  If it falls to magic, none of us are safe"
and then tells Elthina to leave because Kirkwall isn't safe.

Sebastian explicitly says that the sister didn't say what action the Divine would be taking against Kirkwall, so that certainly doesn't support your claim that she endorses an Exalted March.

[Ariella]

Siradix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sorry, but if a death animation plays and the codex says they're dead, then they should be counted dead. Lack of a detailed autopsy doesn't change that.

I'm not against the occasional retcon, but it is a retcon.

Like I said, those who argue that death animations in Origins are canon are arguing that goop explosions are canon. You can't say one is canon and the other isn't.

Who cares about animations, when in actuality the codex for Leliana says

"When <FirstName/> corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian."

The Codex also says that Duncan is Rivani, which he's not. We've been told time and again that the Codex in DA is perception based, some of it isn't fact.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Leliana isn't defending her beliefs, she's trying to murder the only person who can unite the land against the Blight because he committed an action that she didn't agree with.

The Warden is trying to destroy what may be the most sacred relic to an Andrastian - some who believes the existence of the Blight itself is a result of this sort of flippant arrogance against the Maker. At that point, Leliana is perfectly justified (within her world view) to believe she is defending the world against an equally terrible monster.

In Exile wrote...
I didn't say fighting Kolgrim was unjustified, I said that The Warden could be trying to avoid a violent confrontation with a man who seems to have a High Dragon readily avaliable.

And Leliana might be trying to avoid a 2nd catastrophe like the Blight, given Andrastian lore.

Actually, they did force a canon when they brought Oghren back from the dead for players who killed him in Awakening, when they had "not recruited" Anders meet "killed at the Dragonbone Wastes" Justice, and when the deceased Leliana was ressurected to have a cameo in DA2. Forcing a narrative that contradicts player choices is indeed forcing a canon into the storyline.

You're right about that; I forgot about that content, never having played it. I could only get through the terror that is DA:A once.

I'm not talking about the Resolutionists, I'm talking about how Leliana is planning on giving a one-sided report that ignores the Knight-Commander turned dictator and blames the unrest in the city-state entirely on a group that we only see once. My issue is with the fact that Leliana is going to recommend an Exalted March because mages might gain autonomy in Kirkwall.

Leliana believes that whatever is happening in Kirkwall is the result of a plot by the forces that are already at war with the Chantry; her report is going to say (based on the fact that she was attacked) that those forces are active in Kirkwall. After that, it seems Justinia herself wants an Exalted March against those forces.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana isn't defending her beliefs, she's trying to murder the only person who can unite the land against the Blight because he committed an action that she didn't agree with.

The Warden is trying to destroy what may be the most sacred relic to an Andrastian - some who believes the existence of the Blight itself is a result of this sort of flippant arrogance against the Maker. At that point, Leliana is perfectly justified (within her world view) to believe she is defending the world against an equally terrible monster.

Which doesn't change the fact that Leliana is trying to commit murder in attacking The Warden with the intent to kill, regardless of her religious ideology.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't say fighting Kolgrim was unjustified, I said that The Warden could be trying to avoid a violent confrontation with a man who seems to have a High Dragon readily avaliable.

And Leliana might be trying to avoid a 2nd catastrophe like the Blight, given Andrastian lore.

How is she trying to avoid a catastrophe when the Urn is already ruined and she's trying to murder the only Grey Wardens remaining in the nation?

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not talking about the Resolutionists, I'm talking about how Leliana is planning on giving a one-sided report that ignores the Knight-Commander turned dictator and blames the unrest in the city-state entirely on a group that we only see once. My issue is with the fact that Leliana is going to recommend an Exalted March because mages might gain autonomy in Kirkwall.

Leliana believes that whatever is happening in Kirkwall is the result of a plot by the forces that are already at war with the Chantry; her report is going to say (based on the fact that she was attacked) that those forces are active in Kirkwall. After that, it seems Justinia herself wants an Exalted March against those forces.

Except Leliana credits the unrest to the Resolutions and pits the blame on them, ignoring the Knight-Commander who has installed herself as the de facto Viscount and the policies that templars like Ser Thrask and mages like Alain are willing to fight against.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Which doesn't change the fact that Leliana is trying to commit murder in attacking The Warden with the intent to kill, regardless of her religious ideology.

For you, it should. It's just like Anders, the freedom fighting mage.

How is she trying to avoid a catastrophe when the Urn is already ruined and she's trying to murder the only Grey Wardens remaining in the nation?

The are still some uncorrupted ashes that our friendly, neighborhood lunatic has. At that point, the Warden is as big a criminals as the Magisters that allegedly started the blight.

Except Leliana credits the unrest to the Resolutions and pits the blame on them, ignoring the Knight-Commander who has installed herself as the de facto Viscount and the policies that templars like Ser Thrask and mages like Alain are willing to fight against.

We don't know what Leliana knows. From what she tells us, she's investigating the Resolutionists as a possible reason for the instability in Kirkwall and they come out and attack her. Hawke clutches the idiot ball like nobody's business and doesn't bother pointing out what Kirkwall is really like, so Leliana doesn't have any reason to know that Meredith is bonkers.

[KLUME777]

TransientNomad wrote...

I really think it has to do with the amount of people who had Shale/Leliana/etc. live versus those that didn't. Its kinda hard to justify catering to the 1 to 5% of people who killed Shale or Leliana vs the 95% that didn't. I'm not saying they shouldn't or anything if they have the time and resources but you have to see it from the other perspective as well. At a certain point, allocating resources for the extreme minority becomes somewhat counter productive.

In any case, just figure that if Wynne & Shale died in your game, Wynne's spirit brought her back to life and she rebuilt Shale. XP

I think the numbers might be a little higher than 1-5%

A lot of people might have wanted to Destroy the ashes.

[FieryDove]

Beerfish had a thread awhile back on this.

Basically it boiled down to: Stop letting NPC's (Companions also) be able to be killed at all. Allow them to leave if we don't want them or they don't like us or whatever but just not dead. Then there would be less nashing of teeth...maybe? Yes? No?

I know in an Interview Mike said they didn't want new people to the series to feel left out with content they could not see by not playing the other game/dlc. Makes sense but if the new people don't know who Shale is and never see's or hears of them what does it matter if there is a quest or cameo for that npc?

[PsychoBlonde]

Ariella wrote...

The Codex also says that Duncan is Rivani, which he's not. We've been told time and again that the Codex in DA is perception based, some of it isn't fact.

Um, yes he is.  He's *ethnically* Rivaini, his mother was from that country.  So, yeah, he looks like he's from Rivain. 

[Icy Magebane]

I'll just keep it short since everything I believe has already been said... basically, if they want to use an import feature, it should be 100% accurate. If there's even a small chance that a character might return, do not make them killable. It sounds pretty simple to me, but even simpler is the truth about this issue: Bioware doesn't give a damn about our decisions in this series.

Edit:  One other thing... kicking an annoying companion out of the party is good enough.  You don't need to go as far as killing them if that's going to create a conflict in future stories... but if the option is there, don't pretend that it wasn't in the first place.  But that can't be undone now, so whatever...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 29 juin 2011 - 05:17 .

[Kyda]

FieryDove wrote...

Beerfish had a thread awhile back on this.

Basically it boiled down to: Stop letting NPC's (Companions also) be able to be killed at all. Allow them to leave if we don't want them or they don't like us or whatever but just not dead. Then there would be less nashing of teeth...maybe? Yes? No?
 

I think that´s basically their intention with DA2 chars and story... especially with the open end. I believe they can bring pretty much everybody back this time (for DA3) without conflict... of course i could be wrong but i haven´t really had any confrontation with my party members (except for one...)

[Maria Caliban]

scyphozoa wrote...

...if DA is going to offer the feature to import choices, then they should Accurately import those choices.

Which is why they should stop offering that.

Show us the consequences of our actions in game. Not three games from now when you know the flags will be corrupted or misread or the writers will be overwhelmed and just create a canon.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Which doesn't change the fact that Leliana is trying to commit murder in attacking The Warden with the intent to kill, regardless of her religious ideology.

For you, it should. It's just like Anders, the freedom fighting mage.

Anders murdered that specific person, I don't deny that. You may think Leliana is justified, and I certainly don't disagree that she felt justified, but it's murder for her to try to kill The Warden over this act.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is she trying to avoid a catastrophe when the Urn is already ruined and she's trying to murder the only Grey Wardens remaining in the nation?

The are still some uncorrupted ashes that our friendly, neighborhood lunatic has. At that point, the Warden is as big a criminals as the Magisters that allegedly started the blight.

The Warden saved those ashes for Arl Eamon, while the person who "claims to hear the Maker" tries to kill him, ignoring that he's the one who can enable the other groups in Thedas to rally against the Fifth Blight because he's a Grey Warden. It's not a decision I've made for my canon Grey Warden, but I simply found it foolish to try to kill the only person who can rally the people against the Fifth Blight.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except Leliana credits the unrest to the Resolutions and pits the blame on them, ignoring the Knight-Commander who has installed herself as the de facto Viscount and the policies that templars like Ser Thrask and mages like Alain are willing to fight against.

We don't know what Leliana knows. From what she tells us, she's investigating the Resolutionists as a possible reason for the instability in Kirkwall and they come out and attack her. Hawke clutches the idiot ball like nobody's business and doesn't bother pointing out what Kirkwall is really like, so Leliana doesn't have any reason to know that Meredith is bonkers. 

In a city-state where the the Knight-Commander turned dictator has made sympathy for mages common (as Cullen admits) and has made the common people, the nobles, the mages, and even her own templars want to oust her from power, Leliana blames only the mages for the unrest that exists in Kirkwall. Leliana blames some group that Hawke, Anders, and Guard-Captain Aveline have never heard of. Considering that everyone is vocal about Meredith, from the nobles in Hightown to the templars at the inn who were addressing how Meredith talks to herself in her room and how the people are clamoring for Hawke to be the new Viscount and reign in Meredith. Is Hawke supposed to do her job for her? Leliana has to be a massive idiot not to realize that the unrest is being caused by the Knight-Commander acting as dictator and not some obscure group.