This little problem like most of the little problems with Dragon Age 2 can be entirely blamed on the short development cycle meaning that the writers and staff didnt have the time to properly account for the major variables from DAO and DAA like Leliana being murdered and what not.
They had to take shortcuts in this like many other things.
Please don´t resurrect more characters
Débuté par
Mykel54
, juin 24 2011 09:08
Retour en haut
#127
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 09:27
Ariella
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PsychoBlonde wrote...
Ariella wrote...
The Codex also says that Duncan is Rivani, which he's not. We've been told time and again that the Codex in DA is perception based, some of it isn't fact.
Um, yes he is. He's *ethnically* Rivaini, his mother was from that country. So, yeah, he looks like he's from Rivain.
The Codex says he's from rivani (I should have been more clear). According to what I remember DG saying, it was a legacy error, in this case, where an older copy of Duncan's Codex somehow slipped past the editing process. But they've been clear as crystal that not all the Codex entries are true.
Reminds me of a quote from Garak in DS9:
Garak: everything I told you was true.
Bashir: even the lies?
Garak: especially the lies.
Oh, and we need Andrew J. Robinson to voice somebody, either in DA or ME, I don't care, but he just rocks.
#128
Guest_Guest12345_*
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 11:56
Guest_Guest12345_*
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Maria Caliban wrote...
scyphozoa wrote...
...if DA is going to offer the feature to import choices, then they should Accurately import those choices.
Which is why they should stop offering that.
Show us the consequences of our actions in game. Not three games from now when you know the flags will be corrupted or misread or the writers will be overwhelmed and just create a canon.
Yeah I was thinking about this issue and reached a similar conclusion. DAO, DAA and DA2 have given the DA IP enough canonical events (Archdemon is slain, Architecht becomes concious and tries to awaken other darkspawn, the Qunari are driven from Kirkwall and the Chantry is at odds with Mages) to make DA3 without any import mechanic.
I would rather give up the ability to import my previous choices and the hopes of seeing old content readdressed, than see an import feature that drains time and money away from the main body of work.
I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, as the import feature seems to be a well-liked feature. But I think the trade off would be worth it.
#129
Posté 30 juin 2011 - 07:02
Zem_
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Icy Magebane wrote...
I'll just keep it short since everything I believe has already been said... basically, if they want to use an import feature, it should be 100% accurate. If there's even a small chance that a character might return, do not make them killable.
I can't imagine why so many people in this thread feel the need to restate something so incredibly obvious... or that they think someone who's business is making games doesn't already know this. The obvious conclusion is they they DIDN'T know back then that they would want to feature these characters in future games. They didn't know that until they found out just how popular they were with players. Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to say now they shouldn't have made them killable. Easier still to say they shouldn't make ANY companions killable, just to be safe. But the safe approach is also the more boring approach. Making them able to die lends weight to a decision. Not knowing that they would bring Leliana back in future games, for instance, allowing her to die fighting for something she considers sacred to her faith is a powerful decision.
It is nonsense to say they don't care about importing our decisions. If that were true, they wouldn't have bothered with ANY of them. But it's not the only concern. Making and selling games is a business. Bringing back a hugely popular character is a business decision. They obviously had a look at the number of people they thought might be put-off by this decision and weighed it against the vastly greater number who would be happy with the decision. Case closed.
#130
Posté 30 juin 2011 - 07:27
MinotaurWarrior
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scyphozoa wrote...
Maria Caliban wrote...
scyphozoa wrote...
...if DA is going to offer the feature to import choices, then they should Accurately import those choices.
Which is why they should stop offering that.
Show us the consequences of our actions in game. Not three games from now when you know the flags will be corrupted or misread or the writers will be overwhelmed and just create a canon.
Yeah I was thinking about this issue and reached a similar conclusion. DAO, DAA and DA2 have given the DA IP enough canonical events (Archdemon is slain, Architecht becomes concious and tries to awaken other darkspawn, the Qunari are driven from Kirkwall and the Chantry is at odds with Mages) to make DA3 without any import mechanic.
I would rather give up the ability to import my previous choices and the hopes of seeing old content readdressed, than see an import feature that drains time and money away from the main body of work.
I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, as the import feature seems to be a well-liked feature. But I think the trade off would be worth it.
I could accept this, as long as they didn't contradict any choices I made. If DA3 was set in Seheron, and just never touched on the mage rebellion, Orzammar, or what happened with the Arishok / Izzy / the Tome of Koslun, I would be fine. I just don't like contradictions.
#131
Posté 01 juillet 2011 - 04:16
In Exile
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders murdered that specific person, I don't deny that. You may think Leliana is justified, and I certainly don't disagree that she felt justified, but it's murder for her to try to kill The Warden over this act.
I don't think Leliana is justified. At first I thought she was nuts; later, I believed she was a liar, and her entire "maker spoke to her" story was just BS to follow the Warden.
Here is what you asked:
"If Leliana is trying to murder The Warden, why is he vile?"
The answer is the corruption of the apparently divine relic. I'm not defending Leliana. I'm answering your question. An attempt at taking a life isn't de facto immoral, and being attacked does not mean you aren't vile.
The Warden saved those ashes for Arl Eamon,
And corrupted the rest, for the lulz or whatever. The corruption is very important.
while the person who "claims to hear the Maker" tries to kill him,
Maybe the maker told her. We're talking about someone who could be nuts, and may have been working for the Chantry from the start.
ignoring that he's the one who can enable the other groups in Thedas to rally against the Fifth Blight because he's a Grey Warden. It's not a decision I've made for my canon Grey Warden, but I simply found it foolish to try to kill the only person who can rally the people against the Fifth Blight.
First of all, the Warden isn't actually that special. No one knows you can't defeat a blight without Grey Wardens. If Leliana kills you, she can just take the treaties and pretend she was a Warden and try to rally Ferelden. Or go to Orlais. Or to lots of things. There's no reason to think the insane quest of the Warden is that special or important.
Secondly, you're still not getting it. Religious sin > the blight. It's that simple.
In a city-state where the the Knight-Commander turned dictator has made sympathy for mages common (as Cullen admits) and has made the common people, the nobles, the mages, and even her own templars want to oust her from power, Leliana blames only the mages for the unrest that exists in Kirkwall.
Leliana is not from Kirkwall. We have no idea what reports Meredith is sending out. Clearly Elthina is not talking to them (hence the whole mission to start with).
Leliana blames some group that Hawke, Anders, and Guard-Captain Aveline have never heard of. Considering that everyone is vocal about Meredith, from the nobles in Hightown to the templars at the inn who were addressing how Meredith talks to herself in her room and how the people are clamoring for Hawke to be the new Viscount and reign in Meredith.
Leliana blames the group she is working against. She isn't in Kirkwall to find out what's wrong with it.
Is Hawke supposed to do her job for her? Leliana has to be a massive idiot not to realize that the unrest is being caused by the Knight-Commander acting as dictator and not some obscure group.
Again, her job isn't to find out anything. That's the BS story she fed to Elthina to draw out her enemies.
Modifié par In Exile, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:17 .
#132
Posté 01 juillet 2011 - 04:29
Icy Magebane
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It gets restated because if developers read any of these threads, it's important for them to realize that this matters to more than just the first person who said it... Whatever else you might think on this topic isn't really important to me. You have no real proof that they care about our choices, whereas there are many examples, including Gaider's own words, that state the opposite. They've already told us that if they want to use a character or idea, they will do it, and that's how they plan to continue. This includes changing the lore and retconning events, up to and including character deaths. Why don't you read up a bit on this topic rather than jumping to conclusions? It's all on this website...Zem_ wrote...
Icy Magebane wrote...
I'll just keep it short since everything I believe has already been said... basically, if they want to use an import feature, it should be 100% accurate. If there's even a small chance that a character might return, do not make them killable.
I can't imagine why so many people in this thread feel the need to restate something so incredibly obvious... or that they think someone who's business is making games doesn't already know this. The obvious conclusion is they they DIDN'T know back then that they would want to feature these characters in future games. They didn't know that until they found out just how popular they were with players. Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to say now they shouldn't have made them killable. Easier still to say they shouldn't make ANY companions killable, just to be safe. But the safe approach is also the more boring approach. Making them able to die lends weight to a decision. Not knowing that they would bring Leliana back in future games, for instance, allowing her to die fighting for something she considers sacred to her faith is a powerful decision.
It is nonsense to say they don't care about importing our decisions. If that were true, they wouldn't have bothered with ANY of them. But it's not the only concern. Making and selling games is a business. Bringing back a hugely popular character is a business decision. They obviously had a look at the number of people they thought might be put-off by this decision and weighed it against the vastly greater number who would be happy with the decision. Case closed.
I also find it amusing that you think arguing in an aggressive manner "closes the case." That's quite a stretch...
#133
Posté 01 juillet 2011 - 11:33
LobselVith8
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[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders murdered that specific person, I don't deny that. You may think Leliana is justified, and I certainly don't disagree that she felt justified, but it's murder for her to try to kill The Warden over this act. [/quote]
I don't think Leliana is justified. At first I thought she was nuts; later, I believed she was a liar, and her entire "maker spoke to her" story was just BS to follow the Warden.
Here is what you asked:
"If Leliana is trying to murder The Warden, why is he vile?"
The answer is the corruption of the apparently divine relic. I'm not defending Leliana. I'm answering your question. An attempt at taking a life isn't de facto immoral, and being attacked does not mean you aren't vile. [/quote]
You're probably right about Leliana being a liar, since Leliana's Song and her comments as Sister Nightingale seem to indicate that she was putting on a 'persona' for The Warden.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden saved those ashes for Arl Eamon, [/quote]
And corrupted the rest, for the lulz or whatever. The corruption is very important. [/quote]
Shouldn't Leliana have said something when The Warden agreed to Kolgrim's task, though? I mean, The Warden could simply not seek to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples of Andraste + the High Dragon, but it never occurs to Leliana to discuss this issue with The Warden?
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
while the person who "claims to hear the Maker" tries to kill him,[/quote]
Maybe the maker told her. We're talking about someone who could be nuts, and may have been working for the Chantry from the start. [/quote]
Possibly, since the writers established her connection to Doreatha (the current Divine Justina V) in Leliana's Song.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
ignoring that he's the one who can enable the other groups in Thedas to rally against the Fifth Blight because he's a Grey Warden. It's not a decision I've made for my canon Grey Warden, but I simply found it foolish to try to kill the only person who can rally the people against the Fifth Blight.[/quote]
First of all, the Warden isn't actually that special. No one knows you can't defeat a blight without Grey Wardens. If Leliana kills you, she can just take the treaties and pretend she was a Warden and try to rally Ferelden. Or go to Orlais. Or to lots of things. There's no reason to think the insane quest of the Warden is that special or important.
Secondly, you're still not getting it. Religious sin > the blight. It's that simple. [/quote]
First, I have to respectfully disagree about The Warden. He's the only one who can use the treaties as a Grey Warden, and has the documents to prove it (which he can show to the templar Carroll). That's why I disagree with what she is doing - she's putting her religious value over the lives of everyone in the nation of Ferelden. If he's already gotten some or all of the treaties put into place, none of the various groups are going to march to war without him because he's the only one who compels the other races to go to war. And since Leliana has already seen The Warden fight, she has to be an Archdemon short of a Blight to think she'll win against him.
Second, I agree that if her only concern was the religious significance of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I can see her response.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
In a city-state where the the Knight-Commander turned dictator has made sympathy for mages common (as Cullen admits) and has made the common people, the nobles, the mages, and even her own templars want to oust her from power, Leliana blames only the mages for the unrest that exists in Kirkwall. [/quote]
Leliana is not from Kirkwall. We have no idea what reports Meredith is sending out. Clearly Elthina is not talking to them (hence the whole mission to start with). [/quote]
Why do you think Elthina is not talking to them? She's the only who asks Hawke and Sebastian to meet with Sister Nightingale in the first place, and Leliana says she was sent to Kirkwall to investigate the troubles there. If she's not informed about the situation or the dictatorship causing unrest, it falls on her incompetence as an agent of the Divine.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Leliana blames some group that Hawke, Anders, and Guard-Captain Aveline have never heard of. Considering that everyone is vocal about Meredith, from the nobles in Hightown to the templars at the inn who were addressing how Meredith talks to herself in her room and how the people are clamoring for Hawke to be the new Viscount and reign in Meredith. [/quote]
Leliana blames the group she is working against. She isn't in Kirkwall to find out what's wrong with it. [/quote]
You're mistaken. Leliana admits: "The Divine sent me to investigate the possibility of a rebellion here in Kirkwall."
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Is Hawke supposed to do her job for her? Leliana has to be a massive idiot not to realize that the unrest is being caused by the Knight-Commander acting as dictator and not some obscure group.[/quote]
Again, her job isn't to find out anything. That's the BS story she fed to Elthina to draw out her enemies. [/quote]
Leliana is investigating a possible rebellion. Her failure to do her job is why I take such an issue with her as Sister Nightingale.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders murdered that specific person, I don't deny that. You may think Leliana is justified, and I certainly don't disagree that she felt justified, but it's murder for her to try to kill The Warden over this act. [/quote]
I don't think Leliana is justified. At first I thought she was nuts; later, I believed she was a liar, and her entire "maker spoke to her" story was just BS to follow the Warden.
Here is what you asked:
"If Leliana is trying to murder The Warden, why is he vile?"
The answer is the corruption of the apparently divine relic. I'm not defending Leliana. I'm answering your question. An attempt at taking a life isn't de facto immoral, and being attacked does not mean you aren't vile. [/quote]
You're probably right about Leliana being a liar, since Leliana's Song and her comments as Sister Nightingale seem to indicate that she was putting on a 'persona' for The Warden.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden saved those ashes for Arl Eamon, [/quote]
And corrupted the rest, for the lulz or whatever. The corruption is very important. [/quote]
Shouldn't Leliana have said something when The Warden agreed to Kolgrim's task, though? I mean, The Warden could simply not seek to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples of Andraste + the High Dragon, but it never occurs to Leliana to discuss this issue with The Warden?
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
while the person who "claims to hear the Maker" tries to kill him,[/quote]
Maybe the maker told her. We're talking about someone who could be nuts, and may have been working for the Chantry from the start. [/quote]
Possibly, since the writers established her connection to Doreatha (the current Divine Justina V) in Leliana's Song.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
ignoring that he's the one who can enable the other groups in Thedas to rally against the Fifth Blight because he's a Grey Warden. It's not a decision I've made for my canon Grey Warden, but I simply found it foolish to try to kill the only person who can rally the people against the Fifth Blight.[/quote]
First of all, the Warden isn't actually that special. No one knows you can't defeat a blight without Grey Wardens. If Leliana kills you, she can just take the treaties and pretend she was a Warden and try to rally Ferelden. Or go to Orlais. Or to lots of things. There's no reason to think the insane quest of the Warden is that special or important.
Secondly, you're still not getting it. Religious sin > the blight. It's that simple. [/quote]
First, I have to respectfully disagree about The Warden. He's the only one who can use the treaties as a Grey Warden, and has the documents to prove it (which he can show to the templar Carroll). That's why I disagree with what she is doing - she's putting her religious value over the lives of everyone in the nation of Ferelden. If he's already gotten some or all of the treaties put into place, none of the various groups are going to march to war without him because he's the only one who compels the other races to go to war. And since Leliana has already seen The Warden fight, she has to be an Archdemon short of a Blight to think she'll win against him.
Second, I agree that if her only concern was the religious significance of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I can see her response.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
In a city-state where the the Knight-Commander turned dictator has made sympathy for mages common (as Cullen admits) and has made the common people, the nobles, the mages, and even her own templars want to oust her from power, Leliana blames only the mages for the unrest that exists in Kirkwall. [/quote]
Leliana is not from Kirkwall. We have no idea what reports Meredith is sending out. Clearly Elthina is not talking to them (hence the whole mission to start with). [/quote]
Why do you think Elthina is not talking to them? She's the only who asks Hawke and Sebastian to meet with Sister Nightingale in the first place, and Leliana says she was sent to Kirkwall to investigate the troubles there. If she's not informed about the situation or the dictatorship causing unrest, it falls on her incompetence as an agent of the Divine.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Leliana blames some group that Hawke, Anders, and Guard-Captain Aveline have never heard of. Considering that everyone is vocal about Meredith, from the nobles in Hightown to the templars at the inn who were addressing how Meredith talks to herself in her room and how the people are clamoring for Hawke to be the new Viscount and reign in Meredith. [/quote]
Leliana blames the group she is working against. She isn't in Kirkwall to find out what's wrong with it. [/quote]
You're mistaken. Leliana admits: "The Divine sent me to investigate the possibility of a rebellion here in Kirkwall."
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Is Hawke supposed to do her job for her? Leliana has to be a massive idiot not to realize that the unrest is being caused by the Knight-Commander acting as dictator and not some obscure group.[/quote]
Again, her job isn't to find out anything. That's the BS story she fed to Elthina to draw out her enemies. [/quote]
Leliana is investigating a possible rebellion. Her failure to do her job is why I take such an issue with her as Sister Nightingale.
#134
Posté 01 juillet 2011 - 11:48
TEWR
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Shouldn't Leliana have said something when The Warden agreed to Kolgrim's task, though? I mean, The Warden could simply not seek to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples of Andraste + the High Dragon, but it never occurs to Leliana to discuss this issue with The Warden?
She actually does take issue with it and expresses her dislike of the very idea clear as day. So if the Warden brought her to Kolgrim, heard her dislike of it, and still corrupted the Ashes in front of her, then the Warden is just an ****.
#135
Posté 01 juillet 2011 - 11:59
Tirfan
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Or perhaps he thought that he could reason with Leliana? (My warden didn't, one of the shameful metagaming moments for me, I really wanted to kill her.) It really is quote obvious, even without that dialogue that she would take offense about the act, so aside from wanting to chop off her head and make sure never to hear that annoying accent of hers I really can't see any reason to bring her there, except unless she for some reason is one of the persons the Warden really trusts or something?
#136
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 12:13
Hatchetman77
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In Exile wrote...
Man, yeah, it's like - that crazy raving dude who thought a dragon was Andraste reborn might have been wrong about something. That's silly. How could a crazy raving ax dude who worships a dragon be wrong?
In the fantasy setting crazy raving axe dudes who worship dragons are traditionally very good sources of information no matter how crazy their story is. They're like teenagers in 50's horror movies.
Seriously though, am I the only one who interperits the situation that the Dragon is manipulating the cultists and that the source of the information regarding what happens when the ashes are desicrated is comming from the Dragon, not the cultists? I have a hard time believing they got that vial of dragon's blood without the dragon's consent.
Plus the guardian seemed to be pretty upset when you dropped the dragon's blood in so I don't think crazy Steve just filled the vial with Kool-Aid and that seems to support the claim that something bad happened to the ashes. Plus I'm pretty sure you can't take the ashes after desicrating them cause the game tells you they don't work no more, but I may be wrong on that one. Is there a codex on that or something.
#137
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 12:16
MinotaurWarrior
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Like I said, those who argue that death animations in Origins are canon are arguing that goop explosions are canon. You can't say one is canon and the other isn't.
Varric describing goop explosions is totally cannon. Them happening in reality isn't.
DA:O deaths should be cannon, because the game was presenting it as reality. It is possible that some of these deaths (Lelliana) were reversed.
[/off-topic post about a pet peeve misperception of mine]
#138
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 12:36
Special_Agent_Goodwrench
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Hatchetman77 wrote...
Plus the guardian seemed to be pretty upset when you dropped the dragon's blood in so I don't think crazy Steve just filled the vial with Kool-Aid and that seems to support the claim that something bad happened to the ashes.
Well, I'd be pretty peeved if someone figuratively wiped their feet on my prophet's remains. Whether the blood worked or not, doing that is good enough reason for the Guardian to get pissed.
#139
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 01:23
Hatchetman77
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So you're arguing that killing animations are canon? Good, then you're arguing that goopy lego explosions are canon.
I'm not sure you're understanding how the "game mechanics are not canon" thing works. If my character makes some kind of stabby animation to another character, and that character falls down using the same animation that every other character that the game has used to represent a dead character, then in canon that person is dead. The mechanic of how they died my not be canon (doing some super spin move while jumping 30 ft in the air for example, or your lego block example) but they are dead in canon. Even though people in DA2 died with the lego block death animation, as a player when I see the lego block animation I know it represents the character is dead and I ignore the fact they died in a pile of lego blocks. See how that works? If it didn't work that way then any character who died in a pile of lego blocks isn't really dead and nothing you do while playing the game besides dialouge choices would even matter.
So, when your character makes stabby movements at another character, and that character falls in the game's established death animation, then that character is dead.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
For another, the ashes are magical. We have no idea what defiling them actually does. People who chose to believe Kolgrim are believing that a raving lunatic who drinks dragon blood, worships a dragon, and isn't a mage knows about things magical. For all we know the dragon blood did nothing, or may have actually amplified the healing properties.
The guardian seemed pretty upset about the desicration too. I doubt he'd be that pissed if it amplified the healing properties.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
God forbid that Kolgrim could've been wrong, because then the forums will explode with the classic "Bioware did a retcon!! I'm so fed up with them!" response.
No, that's just bad storytelling. When you lead the player to believe something then change it to something else just because it is the most convienant thing to do then it is bad storytelling. In the future it undermines the players ability to trust what is happening in the story and is a huge immersion breaker. It's not just in games that this happens. Let me tell you kiddies about a TV show called Dallas and the fan reaction when two entire seasons of the show turned out to be just a dream.
Kolgrim running a dragon hatchery at the behest of a high dragon gives him some street cred right there. He's not just some crazy wandering around a mountain. I mean seriously, who gets to walk up and talk to a high dragon and not get eaten. The guardian being really pissed off and attacking you after dropping the blood in is another story point that leads me to believe that Kolgrim was right. Like any good story there is room for interpretation (since only bad stories spoon feed you everything) but the guardian's reaction really made the case for the "dragon's blood" in the vial doing what Kolgrim said it would. Going back later and saying "meh, the dragon's blood didn't do anything", is extremly bad storytelling.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Third, I find it hard to believe that the Warden would kill a friend and potentially the woman he loves. It's far more likely he just left her injured, and she went to the Ashes. The Warden didn't kneel down and take her pulse saying "Welp, she's dead." He just left. That's it. There is absolutely no way we could've known whether we had actually killed her or not.
My Warden left Redcliff to die then came back and slaughtered their reanimated corpes. He also killed the prisoner in the cage, the soldier in the woods at Ostigar and the wounded Dalish in the woods (among others). Not only would my Warden have killed Leliana I'm suprised he didn't dismember the body himself.
Also, I didn't see any funerals or pulse checking besides Cailen's in Return to Ostrigar. Does that mean we can reasonably expect Duncan, Loghaine, Rendon Howe and countless redshirts to make reappearances?
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Fourth, I remember somewhere in the DA universe they said that the soul doesn't immediately leave the body upon death. So what if she really was chosen by the Maker? What if the Maker actually intervened?
Divine intervention? That's the actual definition of Deus Ex Machina, what many consider to be the pinnacle of bad storytelling.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You can believe you killed her, but without proof there isn't enough to say "I killed her permanently. That's that."
Anything is possable in storytelling, it's make believe. If you want to tell a good story though, there are certain factors that need to be considered. I want a good story from BioWare, it's what I expect. I expect that because that is how BioWare have marketed themselves. I buy a BioWare game with the expectation of it having a good story, not a halfassed lazy one. I also don't want them changing the good story they wrote for the convienance of the crappy one they're telling now.
Modifié par Hatchetman77, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:36 .
#140
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 01:32
Hatchetman77
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DrunkDeadman wrote...
Hatchetman77 wrote...
Plus the guardian seemed to be pretty upset when you dropped the dragon's blood in so I don't think crazy Steve just filled the vial with Kool-Aid and that seems to support the claim that something bad happened to the ashes.
Well, I'd be pretty peeved if someone figuratively wiped their feet on my prophet's remains. Whether the blood worked or not, doing that is good enough reason for the Guardian to get pissed.
And I'd be pretty peeved if someone desicrated my prophet's remains rendering their healing powers inate. Do you have an actual argument or are you going to keep playing "what if"?
#141
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 01:47
MinotaurWarrior
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No matter what, the ashes couldn't bring people back from the dead. However, whatever gave the ashes their healing power in the first place (be it the Maker or a huge lyrium deposit) could have that effect.
#142
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 01:51
Chuvvy
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Sorry guys, we'll be playing as Calin in DA3.
#143
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 02:03
Sutekh
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Hatchetman77 wrote...
DrunkDeadman wrote...
Hatchetman77 wrote...
Plus the guardian seemed to be pretty upset when you dropped the dragon's blood in so I don't think crazy Steve just filled the vial with Kool-Aid and that seems to support the claim that something bad happened to the ashes.
Well, I'd be pretty peeved if someone figuratively wiped their feet on my prophet's remains. Whether the blood worked or not, doing that is good enough reason for the Guardian to get pissed.
And I'd be pretty peeved if someone desicrated my prophet's remains rendering their healing powers inate. Do you have an actual argument or are you going to keep playing "what if"?
I don't want to talk in DrunkDeadman's stead, but I think what they mean, is the Guardian could have been peeved by the sacrilege in itself, without the sacrilege needing to have any actual effect.
If you do bad things to a holy relic, like, say, paint it in bright pink, it doesn't remove its effects (whatever they are, and if any), but its worshippers wouldn't be happy.
So the Guardian being peeved is no proof the blood had any destructive effect on the ashes' powers.
#144
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 02:40
TEWR
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I'm not sure you're understanding how the "game mechanics are not canon" thing works. If my character makes some kind of stabby animation to another character, and that character falls down using the same animation that every other character that the game has used to represent a dead character, then in canon that person is dead. The mechanic of how they died my not be canon (doing some super spin move while jumping 30 ft in the air for example, or your lego block example) but they are dead in canon. Even though people in DA2 died with the lego block death animation, as a player when I see the lego block animation I know it represents the character is dead and I ignore the fact they died in a pile of lego blocks. See how that works? If it didn't work that way then any character who died in a pile of lego blocks isn't really dead and nothing you do while playing the game besides dialouge choices would even matter.
So, when your character makes stabby movements at another character, and that character falls in the game's established death animation, then that character is dead.
Sure, and when I decapitate Ser Cauthrien after rescuing Anora, she falls down like every other decapitation victim, I get captured, and I see her again at the Landsmeet, she's still dead despite me being able to fight her again.
Except.... she wasn't dead. Because death animations are not canon. Just because a person fell to the ground doesn't mean it's canon. Confirmation of death is canon.
and yes, you can indeed decapitate Cauthrien after rescuing Anora, and she'll fall to the ground.
The guardian seemed pretty upset about the desicration too. I doubt he'd be that pissed if it amplified the healing properties.
You expected him to act nonchalantly? Of course he's going to be pissed. You desicrated the Ashes. But desicration doesn't make it suddenly non-magical, especially when Dragon's blood is in fact magical (which is how Reavers get their power). There is nothing lore-wise to establish that dragon's blood will nullify any magic except the word of a raving lunatic who isn't a mage yet professes to know about all things magical.
No, that's just bad storytelling. When you lead the player to believe something then change it to something else just because it is the most convienant thing to do then it is bad storytelling. In the future it undermines the players ability to trust what is happening in the story and is a huge immersion breaker. It's not just in games that this happens. Let me tell you kiddies about a TV show called Dallas and the fan reaction when two entire seasons of the show turned out to be just a dream.
Kolgrim running a dragon hatchery at the behest of a high dragon gives him some street cred right there. He's not just some crazy wandering around a mountain. I mean seriously, who gets to walk up and talk to a high dragon and not get eaten. The guardian being really pissed off and attacking you after dropping the blood in is another story point that leads me to believe that Kolgrim was right. Like any good story there is room for interpretation (since only bad stories spoon feed you everything) but the guardian's reaction really made the case for the "dragon's blood" in the vial doing what Kolgrim said it would. Going back later and saying "meh, the dragon's blood didn't do anything", is extremly bad storytelling.
No, it isn't. There is always a chance for assumptions about something to be wrong. Kolgrim's assuming that Dragon's Blood will nullify the Ashes' healing properties.
And the Architect ran a dragon hatchery. His assumptions on his Joining Ritual on the Old God Urthemiel were wrong. Just because Kolgrim is taking care of dragons doesn't mean he's right. It means he's able to live with them.
The Guardian is the first of the Disciples of Andraste. They're very devoted to Andraste, or were rather. He even tells you how he loved Andraste beyond measure. His reaction is entirely natural because he wants to take action against the people who just desecrated the Ashes of Andraste.
Which may have been given their healing properties by the lyrium in the mountain. And once again, nothing lore-wise that's concrete evidence suggests dragon's blood nullifies magical properties.
I have to ask though, is it possible to desecrate the Ashes before taking a pinch?
My Warden left Redcliff to die then came back and slaughtered their reanimated corpes. He also killed the prisoner in the cage, the soldier in the woods at Ostigar and the wounded Dalish in the woods (among others). Not only would my Warden have killed Leliana I'm suprised he didn't dismember the body himself.
Also, I didn't see any funerals or pulse checking besides Cailen's in Return to Ostrigar. Does that mean we can reasonably expect Duncan, Loghaine, Rendon Howe and countless redshirts to make reappearances?
Did you travel alongside Redcliffe's villagers? Or Jowan (unless you mean the soldier in the cage at Ostagar)? The Soldier in the woods? The Dalish in the woods? No, and as such your Warden didn't know enough about them to care. Leliana, however, is a different story.
For Duncan, I can't comment. I have this strange feeling that he will return despite Gaider's word saying he's dead.
But Loghain was confirmed to be killed, as was Howe. Leliana wasn't. It's just that simple.
Divine intervention? That's the actual definition of Deus Ex Machina, what many consider to be the pinnacle of bad storytelling.
Never played the Deus Ex series of games, so meh. But I don't think you can say what many people consider to be good or not good.
But like I said, I remember somewhere in the DA lore that it was said the spirit doesn't immediately leave the body upon death.
Maybe you did kill her, but something brought her back. Maybe it was the Maker. Maybe it was a benevolent spirit of the Fade. Maybe a gust of wind blew some untainted Ashes to her and she healed. Maybe your Warden didn't kill her.
Anything is possable in storytelling, it's make believe. If you want to tell a good story though, there are certain factors that need to be considered. I want a good story from BioWare, it's what I expect. I expect that because that is how BioWare have marketed themselves. I buy a BioWare game with the expectation of it having a good story, not a halfassed lazy one. I also don't want them changing the good story they wrote for the convienance of the crappy one they're telling now.
Did you ever consider the possibility that Bioware didn't know Origins would be a huge success? Sure they've made really great games in the past, but that doesn't mean they knew Origins would be a success. If the game had sold poorly and wasn't a success, they would've probably dropped the IP and ceased working on DA2.
Did you also consider that they didn't know Leliana would be an extremely well-loved character? She became one. The fact that they're saying that the choice of Leliana's fate in that questline means they aren't just handwaving it. But that's not enough for some people.
Hindsight is all well and good, but certain things are hard to predict when you're making things. Bioware knew Flemeth would be key in the series if it was a success, so they made a little sentence at the end of her codex implying she might not be dead. They didn't know Leliana would be well-loved.
Now, would it have been nice to find a clue to Leliana possibly being alive in DA:O? Sure. But at least DA2 was nice enough to give us a codex.
There are many tales of Leliana, Orlesian adventuress and bard, the most recent being that she fought against the Fifth Blight. Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated… or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen.
Hell, maybe she was reincarnated in full likeness of herself with her memories. I believe in reincarnation, so I'd believe that. Maybe she went to the Maker's side, and He told her that she needed to be back on Thedas, but couldn't use her old body as it was dead. So, she was granted a special form of reincarnation.
#145
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 03:07
Feraele
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bring back Duncan and his beard of unmitigated badassery and epicness! I don't care if you confirmed he's dead Gaider, bring him back!
Please?
Think Mr Gaider stated at one point that if any such thing occurred it would have to happen prior to the Ostagar events ..least I think thats how he said it. But at the same time I am positive that the attitude then was, that probably won't happen.
I'm with you though, Duncan was a great character, just too bad we didn't get more time to learn from him.
#146
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 02:05
In Exile
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[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You're probably right about Leliana being
a liar, since Leliana's Song and her comments as Sister Nightingale
seem to indicate that she was putting on a 'persona' for The Warden. [/quote]
I thought so. She just very clearly seemed to want to be who you wanted and prodded, and the sweet naive act didn't really work for me in contrast to her alleged past and skills.
[quote]Shouldn't
Leliana have said something when The Warden agreed to Kolgrim's task,
though? I mean, The Warden could simply not seek to fight Kolgrim and
his Disciples of Andraste + the High Dragon, but it never occurs to
Leliana to discuss this issue with The Warden?[/quote]
That's very likely a design resource issue. If the player can back out at any point before corrupting the ashes, Bioware put up the choice right at the end to only give the players the plot branch if they actually corrupt them. Realistically, Bioware can't cover every contigency.
[quote]Possibly,
since the writers established her connection to Doreatha (the current
Divine Justina V) in Leliana's Song.[/quote]
Interesting +1 for liar, -1 for crazy.
[quote]First, I have to respectfully disagree about The
Warden. He's the only one who can use the treaties as a Grey Warden,
and has the documents to prove it (which he can show to the templar
Carroll). [/quote]
The treaties aren't magic. They're documents. The Warden has exactly no way to prove he (or she) is a Grey Warden. Leliana can just wave the treaties around after looting them from the Warden's course and say she's a Warden. Problem solved.
[quote]That's why I disagree with what she is doing - she's putting
her religious value over the lives of everyone in the nation of
Ferelden. If he's already gotten some or all of the treaties put into
place, none of the various groups are going to march to war without him
because he's the only one who compels the other races to go to war. And
since Leliana has already seen The Warden fight, she has to be an
Archdemon short of a Blight to think she'll win against him.[/quote]
1) If no one moves without the Warden, that would be so beyond stupid Ferelden deserves to die in the Blight. Just what would happen if the Warden dies fighting the darkspawn (or from a stray arrow, or the flu)? Everyone shrugs their shoulders and gives up? Certainly not. Leliana can just come up with a lie about how the Warden died, and ther can be a new leader.
2) If you're religious, and a serious believer, then the religion is more important than everything. Again: if you are devout the only reason the Blight actually exists is the kind of arrogance that would lead to the ashes being corrupted.
[quote]Second,
I agree that if her only concern was the religious significance of the
Urn of Sacred Ashes, I can see her response. [/quote]
Her primary concern, at that point, are the ashes.
[quote]Why do you
think Elthina is not talking to them? She's the only who asks Hawke and
Sebastian to meet with Sister Nightingale in the first place, and
Leliana says she was sent to Kirkwall to investigate the troubles there.
If she's not informed about the situation or the dictatorship causing
unrest, it falls on her incompetence as an agent of the Divine.[/quote]
Elthina is not exactly competent (and by not exactly, I mean the complete opposite of). Given her sterling handling of everything in Kirkwall for the past seven years, I'd be surprised if she was sending reports.
[quote]You're mistaken. Leliana
admits: "The Divine sent me to investigate the possibility of a
rebellion here in Kirkwall."[/quote]
Right. A mage rebellion. Led by the Resolutionists. Not Meredith's crushing of the circle.
[quote]Leliana
is investigating a possible rebellion. Her failure to do her job is why
I take such an issue with her as Sister Nightingale.[/quote]
She didn't fail to do her job; she looked for evidence the Resolutions were involved, found it, and went back to file her report.
[quote]Hatchetman77 wrote...
In the fantasy setting crazy raving axe dudes who worship dragons are traditionally very good sources of information no matter how crazy their story is. They're like teenagers in 50's horror movies. [/quote]
Usually, yes. Maybe I just wished fantasy games stopped using crazy ax-raving dragon worshipers as reliable narrators...
[quote]Seriously though, am I the only one who interperits the situation that the Dragon is manipulating the cultists and that the source of the information regarding what happens when the ashes are desicrated is comming from the Dragon, not the cultists? I have a hard time believing they got that vial of dragon's blood without the dragon's consent. [/quote]
That was my impression; I though it was a bit like the Thorian from ME.
[quote]Plus the guardian seemed to be pretty upset when you dropped the dragon's blood in so I don't think crazy Steve just filled the vial with Kool-Aid and that seems to support the claim that something bad happened to the ashes. Plus I'm pretty sure you can't take the ashes after desicrating them cause the game tells you they don't work no more, but I may be wrong on that one. Is there a codex on that or something. [/quote]
Well, we don't know what the guardian is either. You take some ashes before wrecking them (apparently). But maybe the guardian himself revived Leliana. Who knows? All I'm saying is that you could come up with an explanation here that doesn't contradict your playthrough.
You're probably right about Leliana being
a liar, since Leliana's Song and her comments as Sister Nightingale
seem to indicate that she was putting on a 'persona' for The Warden. [/quote]
I thought so. She just very clearly seemed to want to be who you wanted and prodded, and the sweet naive act didn't really work for me in contrast to her alleged past and skills.
[quote]Shouldn't
Leliana have said something when The Warden agreed to Kolgrim's task,
though? I mean, The Warden could simply not seek to fight Kolgrim and
his Disciples of Andraste + the High Dragon, but it never occurs to
Leliana to discuss this issue with The Warden?[/quote]
That's very likely a design resource issue. If the player can back out at any point before corrupting the ashes, Bioware put up the choice right at the end to only give the players the plot branch if they actually corrupt them. Realistically, Bioware can't cover every contigency.
[quote]Possibly,
since the writers established her connection to Doreatha (the current
Divine Justina V) in Leliana's Song.[/quote]
Interesting +1 for liar, -1 for crazy.
[quote]First, I have to respectfully disagree about The
Warden. He's the only one who can use the treaties as a Grey Warden,
and has the documents to prove it (which he can show to the templar
Carroll). [/quote]
The treaties aren't magic. They're documents. The Warden has exactly no way to prove he (or she) is a Grey Warden. Leliana can just wave the treaties around after looting them from the Warden's course and say she's a Warden. Problem solved.
[quote]That's why I disagree with what she is doing - she's putting
her religious value over the lives of everyone in the nation of
Ferelden. If he's already gotten some or all of the treaties put into
place, none of the various groups are going to march to war without him
because he's the only one who compels the other races to go to war. And
since Leliana has already seen The Warden fight, she has to be an
Archdemon short of a Blight to think she'll win against him.[/quote]
1) If no one moves without the Warden, that would be so beyond stupid Ferelden deserves to die in the Blight. Just what would happen if the Warden dies fighting the darkspawn (or from a stray arrow, or the flu)? Everyone shrugs their shoulders and gives up? Certainly not. Leliana can just come up with a lie about how the Warden died, and ther can be a new leader.
2) If you're religious, and a serious believer, then the religion is more important than everything. Again: if you are devout the only reason the Blight actually exists is the kind of arrogance that would lead to the ashes being corrupted.
[quote]Second,
I agree that if her only concern was the religious significance of the
Urn of Sacred Ashes, I can see her response. [/quote]
Her primary concern, at that point, are the ashes.
[quote]Why do you
think Elthina is not talking to them? She's the only who asks Hawke and
Sebastian to meet with Sister Nightingale in the first place, and
Leliana says she was sent to Kirkwall to investigate the troubles there.
If she's not informed about the situation or the dictatorship causing
unrest, it falls on her incompetence as an agent of the Divine.[/quote]
Elthina is not exactly competent (and by not exactly, I mean the complete opposite of). Given her sterling handling of everything in Kirkwall for the past seven years, I'd be surprised if she was sending reports.
[quote]You're mistaken. Leliana
admits: "The Divine sent me to investigate the possibility of a
rebellion here in Kirkwall."[/quote]
Right. A mage rebellion. Led by the Resolutionists. Not Meredith's crushing of the circle.
[quote]Leliana
is investigating a possible rebellion. Her failure to do her job is why
I take such an issue with her as Sister Nightingale.[/quote]
She didn't fail to do her job; she looked for evidence the Resolutions were involved, found it, and went back to file her report.
[quote]Hatchetman77 wrote...
In the fantasy setting crazy raving axe dudes who worship dragons are traditionally very good sources of information no matter how crazy their story is. They're like teenagers in 50's horror movies. [/quote]
Usually, yes. Maybe I just wished fantasy games stopped using crazy ax-raving dragon worshipers as reliable narrators...
[quote]Seriously though, am I the only one who interperits the situation that the Dragon is manipulating the cultists and that the source of the information regarding what happens when the ashes are desicrated is comming from the Dragon, not the cultists? I have a hard time believing they got that vial of dragon's blood without the dragon's consent. [/quote]
That was my impression; I though it was a bit like the Thorian from ME.
[quote]Plus the guardian seemed to be pretty upset when you dropped the dragon's blood in so I don't think crazy Steve just filled the vial with Kool-Aid and that seems to support the claim that something bad happened to the ashes. Plus I'm pretty sure you can't take the ashes after desicrating them cause the game tells you they don't work no more, but I may be wrong on that one. Is there a codex on that or something. [/quote]
Well, we don't know what the guardian is either. You take some ashes before wrecking them (apparently). But maybe the guardian himself revived Leliana. Who knows? All I'm saying is that you could come up with an explanation here that doesn't contradict your playthrough.
#147
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 07:10
LobselVith8
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In Exile wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
First, I have to respectfully disagree about The Warden. He's the only one who can use the treaties as a Grey Warden,
and has the documents to prove it (which he can show to the templar Carroll).
The treaties aren't magic. They're documents. The Warden has exactly no way to prove he (or she) is a Grey Warden. Leliana can just wave the treaties around after looting them from the Warden's course and say she's a Warden. Problem solved.
The Warden can prove he's a genuine Warden - he has documents proving that he's a Grey Warden - he can show them to the templar Carroll when The Warden heads to the Circle Tower for "A Broken Circle." As for the treaties, it compels the specific groups to aid the Wardens during a time of Blight. Leliana clearly wasn't giving any thought to Ferelden when she tried to murder The Warden.
In Exile wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
That's why I disagree with what she is doing - she's putting her religious value over the lives of everyone in the nation of Ferelden. If he's already gotten some or all of the treaties put into place, none of the various groups are going to march to war without him because he's the only one who compels the other races to go to war. And since Leliana has already seen The Warden fight, she has to be an Archdemon short of a Blight to think she'll win against him.
1) If no one moves without the Warden, that would be so beyond stupid Ferelden deserves to die in the Blight. Just what would happen if the Warden dies fighting the darkspawn (or from a stray arrow, or the flu)? Everyone shrugs their shoulders and gives up? Certainly not. Leliana can just come up with a lie about how the Warden died, and ther can be a new leader.
2) If you're religious, and a serious believer, then the religion is more important than everything. Again: if you are devout the only reason the Blight actually exists is the kind of arrogance that would lead to the ashes being corrupted.
1) I don't see them being compelled to take the word of a stranger when a few of them are only aiding The Warden because of the treaty and what he specifically did for these various groups - it's not like the Fifth Blight compelled the dwarves of Orzammar to head to the surface immediately, after all.
2) What arrogance? The Warden could simply not wish to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples, along with the High Dragon.
In Exile wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Why do you think Elthina is not talking to them? She's the only who asks Hawke and Sebastian to meet with Sister Nightingale in the first place, and Leliana says she was sent to Kirkwall to investigate the troubles there. If she's not informed about the situation or the dictatorship causing unrest, it falls on her incompetence as an agent of the Divine.
Elthina is not exactly competent (and by not exactly, I mean the complete opposite of). Given her sterling handling of everything in Kirkwall for the past seven years, I'd be surprised if she was sending reports.
Although I don't contest Elthina being an inept leader, she did know about meeting Sister Nightingale and sent Hawke and Sebastian to meet her on her behalf.
In Exile wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
You're mistaken. Leliana admits: "The Divine sent me to investigate the possibility of a rebellion here in Kirkwall."
Right. A mage rebellion. Led by the Resolutionists. Not Meredith's crushing of the circle.
If Leliana is investigating the problem and is too inept to realize that the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator over Kirkwall is playing a significant role in the problems that are going on, then she's doing a poor job as the Divine's agent. Leliana failed in her task as the Divine's agent if she's ignorant about Meredith's role in the unrest taking place in Kirkwall.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 juillet 2011 - 07:13 .
#148
Posté 02 juillet 2011 - 10:12
In Exile
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LobselVith8 wrote..
The Warden can prove he's a genuine Warden - he has documents proving that he's a Grey Warden - he can show them to the templar Carroll when The Warden heads to the Circle Tower for "A Broken Circle."
Those are the treaties. You never get any other secret documents in-game, and even if you did, so long as you carried them on your person Leliana could loot them.
Hell, Leliana could fake them, or just BS her way out of the situation like the Warden can (by using persuade or intimidate) without ever showing any documents.
As for the treaties, it compels the specific groups to aid the Wardens during a time of Blight. Leliana clearly wasn't giving any thought to Ferelden when she tried to murder The Warden.
Of course she was. You keep acting as if her religious belief is a fantasy instead of a personal reality.
1) I don't see them being compelled to take the word of a stranger when a few of them are only aiding The Warden because of the treaty and what he specifically did for these various groups - it's not like the Fifth Blight compelled the dwarves of Orzammar to head to the surface immediately, after all.
The dwarves didn't know there was a blight. That was the whole point of what the Warden did. Leliana travelled with the Warden (so the allies -at least the ones in camp - would already know her). Leliana isn't a stranger, and the Warden isn't that important.
2) What arrogance? The Warden could simply not wish to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples, along with the High Dragon.
That a divine item from the maker is not so sacrosant that any sacrifice is worth it. Not wanting to fight Kolgrim is another way of saying the ashes aren't important enough, but to a devout Andrastian there would be very little more sacred.
You're a smart person - I'm just not seeing why you have a difficult time relating to this outlook.
Although I don't contest Elthina being an inept leader, she did know about meeting Sister Nightingale and sent Hawke and Sebastian to meet her on her behalf.
Sure - but knowing an agent is coming to investigate != writing a report. That would, again, be a sign of competence.
If Leliana is investigating the problem and is too inept to realize that the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator over Kirkwall is playing a significant role in the problems that are going on, then she's doing a poor job as the Divine's agent. Leliana failed in her task as the Divine's agent if she's ignorant about Meredith's role in the unrest taking place in Kirkwall.
No, she isn't. Her job isn't to make sure mages aren't raped, abused, beaten, killed or otherwise mistreated. Her job is to see if a particular group of mages is working against the Chantry. Her role isn't to discover the problem; it's to investigate a particular group.
Modifié par In Exile, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:13 .
#149
Posté 03 juillet 2011 - 12:06
Zem_
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Icy Magebane wrote...
It gets restated because if developers read any of these threads, it's important for them to realize that this matters to more than just the first person who said it...
That's not really what I was commenting on. Everyone seems to want to give Bioware the advice, "It's so simple! Just don't make characters you might want to bring back killable!" Which to me sounds like, "Hop into your time machine and set it back three years so you can make Leliana unkillable". In other words, it's really obvious advice and I wonder why anyone thinks they don't know to do this. It seems far more likely they just didn't anticipate wanting to bring these characters back in a sequel and might even have been surprised by their popularity.
As for informing the devs, I honestly doubt they come to these forums and count how many people are complaining when they have all the profile data from the actual game telling them how many people in how many of their multiple play-throughs, bothered to kill the companions in question and hence, might be upset at their unexpected return.
Whatever else you might think on this topic isn't really important to me. You have no real proof that they care about our choices, whereas there are many examples, including Gaider's own words, that state the opposite. They've already told us that if they want to use a character or idea, they will do it, and that's how they plan to continue. This includes changing the lore and retconning events, up to and including character deaths. Why don't you read up a bit on this topic rather than jumping to conclusions? It's all on this website...
You quoted my whole post. Did you even read it? I said exactly this. Bringing these characters back is a business decision. And it is ridiculous to say just because they didn't bring forward 100% of all choices for 100% of all players that they "don't care about our decisions". This is pure exaggeration. Like I said (and which you ignored), if they don't care... why import our savegame at all? All Gaider was saying is that it isn't their only concern. That there are other things which can cause them to want to retcon a decision. Why does anyone retcon anything? Because they feel it will please far more people than it pisses off. Simple as that.
I also find it amusing that you think arguing in an aggressive manner "closes the case." That's quite a stretch...
I can see how it would seem like that if you don't bother to read the actual words.
#150
Posté 03 juillet 2011 - 03:02
LobselVith8
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[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden can prove he's a genuine Warden - he has documents proving that he's a Grey Warden - he can show them to the templar Carroll when The Warden heads to the Circle Tower for "A Broken Circle." [/quote]
Those are the treaties. You never get any other secret documents in-game, and even if you did, so long as you carried them on your person Leliana could loot them.
Hell, Leliana could fake them, or just BS her way out of the situation like the Warden can (by using persuade or intimidate) without ever showing any documents. [/quote]
Or Leliana could end up being exposed as a fraud and getting killed for her troubles.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As for the treaties, it compels the specific groups to aid the Wardens during a time of Blight. Leliana clearly wasn't giving any thought to Ferelden when she tried to murder The Warden.[/quote]
Of course she was. You keep acting as if her religious belief is a fantasy instead of a personal reality. [/quote]
I'm addressing Leliana put her religious views before the entire population of the nation. I don't dismiss that her Andrastian is true to her.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
1) I don't see them being compelled to take the word of a stranger when a few of them are only aiding The Warden because of the treaty and what he specifically did for these various groups - it's not like the Fifth Blight compelled the dwarves of Orzammar to head to the surface immediately, after all. [/quote]
The dwarves didn't know there was a blight. That was the whole point of what the Warden did. Leliana travelled with the Warden (so the allies -at least the ones in camp - would already know her). Leliana isn't a stranger, and the Warden isn't that important. [/quote]
Even when the dwarves are informed there is a Blight, given the presence of The Warden, the Assembly is putting the political situation first and foremost. And you and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree about The Warden's importance.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
2) What arrogance? The Warden could simply not wish to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples, along with the High Dragon. [/quote]
That a divine item from the maker is not so sacrosant that any sacrifice is worth it. Not wanting to fight Kolgrim is another way of saying the ashes aren't important enough, but to a devout Andrastian there would be very little more sacred.
You're a smart person - I'm just not seeing why you have a difficult time relating to this outlook. [/quote]
I don't disagree about the dichotomy between what The Warden could decide is the right course of action to take, and what Leliana can decide is more important because of her religious values.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Although I don't contest Elthina being an inept leader, she did know about meeting Sister Nightingale and sent Hawke and Sebastian to meet her on her behalf.[/quote]
Sure - but knowing an agent is coming to investigate != writing a report. That would, again, be a sign of competence. [/quote]
Investing the troubles in Kirkwall and not realizing the cause of the unrest for so many factions (including some members in the Order of Templars) is the Knight-Commander turned dictator = incompetence.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If Leliana is investigating the problem and is too inept to realize that the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator over Kirkwall is playing a significant role in the problems that are going on, then she's doing a poor job as the Divine's agent. Leliana failed in her task as the Divine's agent if she's ignorant about Meredith's role in the unrest taking place in Kirkwall.[/quote]
No, she isn't. Her job isn't to make sure mages aren't raped, abused, beaten, killed or otherwise mistreated. Her job is to see if a particular group of mages is working against the Chantry. Her role isn't to discover the problem; it's to investigate a particular group. [/quote]
It was Leliana's task to find out the cause of the unrest going on in Kirkwall, and she didn't do her job. Leliana never once says her job is to investigate the Resolutions, but to investigate the unrest in Kirkwall. You're a smart person, I don't understand why you have difficulty realizing Leliana's failure.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden can prove he's a genuine Warden - he has documents proving that he's a Grey Warden - he can show them to the templar Carroll when The Warden heads to the Circle Tower for "A Broken Circle." [/quote]
Those are the treaties. You never get any other secret documents in-game, and even if you did, so long as you carried them on your person Leliana could loot them.
Hell, Leliana could fake them, or just BS her way out of the situation like the Warden can (by using persuade or intimidate) without ever showing any documents. [/quote]
Or Leliana could end up being exposed as a fraud and getting killed for her troubles.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As for the treaties, it compels the specific groups to aid the Wardens during a time of Blight. Leliana clearly wasn't giving any thought to Ferelden when she tried to murder The Warden.[/quote]
Of course she was. You keep acting as if her religious belief is a fantasy instead of a personal reality. [/quote]
I'm addressing Leliana put her religious views before the entire population of the nation. I don't dismiss that her Andrastian is true to her.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
1) I don't see them being compelled to take the word of a stranger when a few of them are only aiding The Warden because of the treaty and what he specifically did for these various groups - it's not like the Fifth Blight compelled the dwarves of Orzammar to head to the surface immediately, after all. [/quote]
The dwarves didn't know there was a blight. That was the whole point of what the Warden did. Leliana travelled with the Warden (so the allies -at least the ones in camp - would already know her). Leliana isn't a stranger, and the Warden isn't that important. [/quote]
Even when the dwarves are informed there is a Blight, given the presence of The Warden, the Assembly is putting the political situation first and foremost. And you and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree about The Warden's importance.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
2) What arrogance? The Warden could simply not wish to fight Kolgrim and his Disciples, along with the High Dragon. [/quote]
That a divine item from the maker is not so sacrosant that any sacrifice is worth it. Not wanting to fight Kolgrim is another way of saying the ashes aren't important enough, but to a devout Andrastian there would be very little more sacred.
You're a smart person - I'm just not seeing why you have a difficult time relating to this outlook. [/quote]
I don't disagree about the dichotomy between what The Warden could decide is the right course of action to take, and what Leliana can decide is more important because of her religious values.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Although I don't contest Elthina being an inept leader, she did know about meeting Sister Nightingale and sent Hawke and Sebastian to meet her on her behalf.[/quote]
Sure - but knowing an agent is coming to investigate != writing a report. That would, again, be a sign of competence. [/quote]
Investing the troubles in Kirkwall and not realizing the cause of the unrest for so many factions (including some members in the Order of Templars) is the Knight-Commander turned dictator = incompetence.
[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If Leliana is investigating the problem and is too inept to realize that the Knight-Commander becoming a dictator over Kirkwall is playing a significant role in the problems that are going on, then she's doing a poor job as the Divine's agent. Leliana failed in her task as the Divine's agent if she's ignorant about Meredith's role in the unrest taking place in Kirkwall.[/quote]
No, she isn't. Her job isn't to make sure mages aren't raped, abused, beaten, killed or otherwise mistreated. Her job is to see if a particular group of mages is working against the Chantry. Her role isn't to discover the problem; it's to investigate a particular group. [/quote]
It was Leliana's task to find out the cause of the unrest going on in Kirkwall, and she didn't do her job. Leliana never once says her job is to investigate the Resolutions, but to investigate the unrest in Kirkwall. You're a smart person, I don't understand why you have difficulty realizing Leliana's failure.
