8 réponses à ce sujet

[telephasic]

I suspect, although I don't know for sure, that since the devs have said that someone with a cunning of 16 and four ranks of persuasion can pass nearly all persuasion checks in the game, that rogues (who will typically have a much, much higher cunning) don't need four ranks.  Hell, the Prima Guide bits I saw online suggested a rogue only take one rank, while warriors and mages take all four. 

I'm guessing that coercion works similar to lockpicking/trap disarming.  That every rank you take adds an effective bonus to your cunning (for persuasion) or your strength (for intimidation) for the purposes of conversation.  For a cunning-heavy rogue, there is no real reason to get the fourth level in the lockpicking/trap disarming line, as your cunning will be high enough with three ranks to do everything by the end game.  All not taking the final rank means is you'll have to wait a few more levels to open every chest/disarm every trap in the game. 

Conversation choices are different in one important way however - you can't go back and do them later.  Also, since the middle plot is nonlinear, presumably the persuasion required in each of the four areas is roughly similar.  Thus, there may be a rationale to maxing coercion even though by the endgame you'll effectively have more than you really need. 

Regardless, anyone have hard data here?  

Modifié par telephasic, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:33 .

[Discobird]

I've looked for the code in the scripts but haven't been able to find it yet. Would love to know how it works.

[Codrus0]

I don't know if they have overrides elsewhere in the code, but I found the code for persuade checks*.



Here's the formulas I found -- it is pretty simple:



Coerce gives you 25 points per level.

Cunning gives you 1 point per point over 10 on persuade checks.

Strength gives you 1 point per level over 10 on intimidate checks.



Difficulty levels for checks are 25, 50, 75, or 100.



My takeaway from this was that mages just go to 4 points in Coerce. Warriors and Rogues go to 3 points in Coerce and get at least 35 in their appropriate stat. On a casual reading of the code, 4 points in Coerce will win all contests. That matches the results of my first playthrough -- after I hit four ranks in Coerce, I never failed a persuade check.



What I don't know is whether they override this skill check function elsewhere in the code.







*I'm not sitting in front of my machine with the toolset on it, but from memory, it was in a skills file. There's a generic skill check function with a big switch statement for different types of checks. Sadly, their search doesn't let you search files unless they've been opened, so when I'm hunting around, I usually just open all their scripting files and then do the search across all open files.

[Discobird]

You rock, codrus--the function UT_SkillCheck() in utility_h.nss works exactly as you say. If it's not overridden anywhere else, it looks like Coercion 4 is indeed enough to pass every coercion check (whether persuade or intimidate).

Modifié par Discobird, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[T0rin3]

Wonder how viable it would be to make a Cun rogue with only 2 Persuasion skill... you won't hit 50 Cun till somewhere around level 14 maybe?

[Discobird]

T0rin3 wrote...

Wonder how viable it would be to make a Cun rogue with only 2 Persuasion skill... you won't hit 50 Cun till somewhere around level 14 maybe?

That's exactly what I'm doing with my current rogue--lvl 12, 47 cunning with gear, 2 points in Coercion. I've failed some persuasion checks up to this point. I'll let you guys know if I fail any more after hitting 50 cunning.

[T0rin3]

Level 13, I was close. But given how often rogues get skill points, I don't think it would be worth it (imo) to fail any persuade checks just to save a single skill point.



To me, there just aren't that many skills I actually want to need to worry much about preserving them.

[Codrus0]

You'd need 60 cunning, not 50. It didn't seem viable to me -- you can do it, but only if you really focus your attribute points, and you don't max it out until late in the game.



Rogues have skill points to burn (talents are where you struggle), so better to just get to Coerce 3 early.



The other area I've been investigating is stealth -- from the code, it appears that stealth perception is entirely based on the rank of the monster compared to your own rank in stealth. Cunning doesn't affect stealth.



I've finished with a rogue, but if I were to make a second one: Assassin specialty, Cunning 40+, Lethality, Devices 3, Stealth 4, Coerce 3. If you think you'll get to Cunning 50 or you've realized that chests don't really offer exceptional loot, you can go lower on Devices. In fact, I'd prioritize a lot of rogue talents over that last point in Devices.

[Discobird]

Codrus0 wrote...
You'd need 60 cunning, not 50. It didn't seem viable to me -- you can do it, but only if you really focus your attribute points, and you don't max it out until late in the game.

Yeah you're right of course, it's 60 cunning.  My rogue is putting everything in cunning so I'll reach that in another 3 or 4 levels depending on gear.

The other area I've been investigating is stealth -- from the code, it appears that stealth perception is entirely based on the rank of the monster compared to your own rank in stealth. Cunning doesn't affect stealth.

Yeah that was the conclusion I reached too (see the rogue mechanics thread in my sig).