111 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

mcsupersport wrote...
Lots o' math

This is why people say the Matlock is broken/bugged, because you double your damage output unlike other rapid fire damage. The damage for Matlock is more akin to sniper rifles boosts than assault rifles.

I understand that, but that doesn't mean it is bugged.  I suppose it is semantics.  It is given a rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute maximum... apparently nobody can "pull the trigger" 12.5 times per second which is why you don't see that output when you are not using AR (or even using it).

There is a video on Horizon showing both, just for reference.  In the first part he hits AR and gets off 12 shots in about 2 seconds.  That in real world time is 6 rounds / s or 360RPM, which is just under the 50%RPM penalty for Hardened AR (375) since the Mattock is rated at 750RPM.

All I was getting at is that it doesn't appear that anyone can hit the trigger more than 6 times a second or so which makes it appear that the rate of fire is the same.  And I suppose that you could say functionally the rate of fire is indeed the same, but that does not appear to be due to a bug in the adrenaline rush logic, rather the fact that the Mattock has such a high theoretical rate of fire.

In fact you can see what a ridiculous gun it is when it is modded to be full auto in the INI...


You can hear that it is slightly faster than the Revi.

Modifié par capn233, 07 septembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[TLayug]

capn233 wrote...

Is the Mattock really bugged? I don't have it so haven't used it personally, but the info states that its max rate of fire is 750rpm, which is indeed 50rpm more than the Revenant. From the videos I see, during AR the firing rate is about the same between the two, namely about half of that: 350-375rpm. It doesn't seem to me that anyone can fire it much faster out of adrenaline rush. It's ROF out of AR should be 12.5 rounds per second

The bug is definitely there on pc. I can empty the whole mag in AR everytime. That, coupled with the damage bonus in AR, is a tremendous amount of damage within a relatively short/safe period of time.

[capn233]

The whole mag is a whopping 16 shots. How long does your AR time last? Rank 4 Hardened lasts 5 seconds.

Here comes the maths...

Mattock theoretical ROF: 750rpm
Hardened AR ROF penalty: 50%
Mattock Hardened AR ROF: 375rpm (750*.5) or 6.25 rounds per second (375rpm * 1min/60s)
Mattock capacity: 16 rounds
Time to deplete mag in Rank 4 Hardened AR @ 375rpm: 2.56s (t= 16rounds * 1s/6.25rounds)

If you can end up emptying the mag in only 1.28s then it isn't reducing the ROF. That is how fast it would go at its real rate of 750rpm.

edit: didn't actually show the math...

Modifié par capn233, 07 septembre 2011 - 11:36 .

[TLayug]

Ah, okay. I see what your saying. There was a miss communication on my part. Yeah, in all likely hood, your absolutely correct. Mechanics wise, it doesn't look to be a bug.

[capn233]

TLayug wrote...

Ah, okay. I see what your saying. There was a miss communication on my part. Yeah, in all likely hood, your absolutely correct. Mechanics wise, it doesn't look to be a bug.

Yeah it was all semantics.

I agree that it doesn't make any sense to make a weapon like that and what they did makes for odd balance (eg overpowered Mattock).  I would have made it with something like maybe 400-500rpm max, which would have made AR rate of fire 200-250RPM... which would be about as fast as the Viper fires normally.  Although I suppose that would still seem off, if the max people can hit the trigger is around 375RPM due to mouse or controller design.

Ah well.

Modifié par capn233, 07 septembre 2011 - 11:50 .

[TLayug]

Bioware just wanted to make sure that the Mattock would fire as fast as the shooter could pull the trigger. A guarenteed way to do that was giving it an unattainable ROF. In doing so, they neglected to take into account that the AR penalty on the mattock wouldn't matter. Nobody is capable of attaining much more than half of the Mattock's theoretical ROF. Whether this was intentional or unintentional....I dunno yo!

edit: left some important words out

Modifié par TLayug, 08 septembre 2011 - 02:21 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^That's actually pretty close to the truth, as I've heard it.

[spartacusthegod]

Well, I've managed to make it shoot as fast as the Avenger shoots, and with Heightened Adrenaline Rush (the main choice for Widow soldiers) you only can get off about 10 shots max while in Adrenaline Rush. I can empty a Mattock clip normally in about a second and a half tops, without using Adrenaline Rush.

Mattock is calm, precise and high power, not to mention being kinda overpowered. Revenant is outrageous, Rambo-style, and not quite as high power, but it's still a vicous gun nonetheless. Basically which you want entirely boils down to your play style.

[Alistair_Dunscon]

capn233 wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...
Lots o' math

This is why people say the Matlock is broken/bugged, because you double your damage output unlike other rapid fire damage. The damage for Matlock is more akin to sniper rifles boosts than assault rifles.

I understand that, but that doesn't mean it is bugged.  I suppose it is semantics.  It is given a rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute maximum... apparently nobody can "pull the trigger" 12.5 times per second which is why you don't see that output when you are not using AR (or even using it).

There is a video on Horizon showing both, just for reference.  In the first part he hits AR and gets off 12 shots in about 2 seconds.  That in real world time is 6 rounds / s or 360RPM, which is just under the 50%RPM penalty for Hardened AR (375) since the Mattock is rated at 750RPM.

All I was getting at is that it doesn't appear that anyone can hit the trigger more than 6 times a second or so which makes it appear that the rate of fire is the same.  And I suppose that you could say functionally the rate of fire is indeed the same, but that does not appear to be due to a bug in the adrenaline rush logic, rather the fact that the Mattock has such a high theoretical rate of fire.

In fact you can see what a ridiculous gun it is when it is modded to be full auto in the INI...


You can hear that it is slightly faster than the Revi.

Clicking more than 6 times per second isn't that difficult; hitting the Mattock's ROF cap in any version of AR is perfectly doable and you will know when you hit it because you end up with more clicks registered than shots fired.

[mredders91]

both are good rifles but i favour the mattock precise and hard hitting its the way i play

[mcsupersport]

capn233 wrote...

The whole mag is a whopping 16 shots. How long does your AR time last? Rank 4 Hardened lasts 5 seconds.

Here comes the maths...

Mattock theoretical ROF: 750rpm
Hardened AR ROF penalty: 50%
Mattock Hardened AR ROF: 375rpm (750*.5) or 6.25 rounds per second (375rpm * 1min/60s)
Mattock capacity: 16 rounds
Time to deplete mag in Rank 4 Hardened AR @ 375rpm: 2.56s (t= 16rounds * 1s/6.25rounds)

If you can end up emptying the mag in only 1.28s then it isn't reducing the ROF. That is how fast it would go at its real rate of 750rpm.

edit: didn't actually show the math...

What you miss is for the Rev to shoot 11 rounds per second as numbers...
Time(real world) to shoot 16 rounds out of ARush would be 1.5 seconds.
Time(real world) to shoot 16 rounds in ARush would be 3 seconds.

Matlock with an average of 6 clicks per second...
Time(real world) to shoot 16 rounds out of ARush would be 2.7 seconds
Time(real world) to shoot 16 rounds in ARush would be 2.7 seconds.


If you can do 8 clicks per second on the matlock 750 rpm max.
Time(real world) to shoot 16 rounds out of ARush would be 2 seconds.
Time(real world) to shoot 16 rounds in ARush would be 2.6 seconds.

So even hitting the max under ARush only costs 1/3 what the Rev gets in reduction, the only way you would see a normal reduction in fire would be to be able to click 12 times a second,  Basically for most players who only click 5-7 times a second, ARush just purely doubles the damage output for the Matlock and slows down incoming damage while making it easier to hit enemies.  All other automatic guns see damage remain constant to non-ARush, while getting the reduced incoming damage and ease of aiming.


In game time ROF would look like this for the Matlock at 6 clicks per second to an observer/enemy.....
Without ARush.....Rate of Fire-360
With ARush....Rate of Fire-720

In game time ROF for the Rev would look like this to observer/enemy........
Without ARush...Rate of Fire-700
With ARush....Rate of Fire-700

Modifié par mcsupersport, 08 septembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[capn233]

mcsupersport wrote...
....
In game time ROF would look like this for the Matlock at 6 clicks per second to an observer/enemy.....
Without ARush.....Rate of Fire-360
With ARush....Rate of Fire-720

In game time ROF for the Rev would look like this to observer/enemy........
Without ARush...Rate of Fire-700
With ARush....Rate of Fire-700

I did not miss anything.  That is a design or balance problem with the Mattock.  Not a "bug."  The Mattock's max rate of fire is defined as 750rounds per minute.  The Revenant's is 700.  It would be "bugged" if they wrote it to have a max rate of fire of 250rpm and upon entering adrenaline rush it had a rate of fire of 250rpm real life or 500rpm game time.  That is not happening.

That's just how they designed it apparently.  It does get the rate of fire reduction applied to it during adrenaline rush.  It's just the base rate of fire is not acheivable by most people out of adrenaline rush.  Now if a dev came out and said, oh we accidently hit the 7 instead of 3, maybe you could count that as a typo bug.

Modifié par capn233, 08 septembre 2011 - 10:48 .

[mcsupersport]

While it may not be "technically" bugged, the Matlock operates in real use unlike any other Assault rifle in the game. Every other assault rifle in the game you can achieve the maximum rate of fire at any time for the duration of on clip by pressing the trigger. On every other assault rifle the damage per second in ARush either remains the same or goes up slightly. The Matlock is the exception to all of this. This is why people "SAY" the gun is bugged, or broken, because it is already a powerful gun and under most people's game use the damage output of the gun doubles or more during ARush, thus making a powerful gun even better.

So while it may not be technically bugged, it is different from the others and many people say under ARush it basically "breaks" the difficulty of the game by being too powerful. Personally I think it was a neat idea, but bad implementation and since it is DLC and optional you don't have to use it.
So our debate and numbers is all a difference of Semantics.

[capn233]

mcsupersport wrote...
So while it may not be technically bugged, it is different from the others and many people say under ARush it basically "breaks" the difficulty of the game by being too powerful. Personally I think it was a neat idea, but bad implementation and since it is DLC and optional you don't have to use it.
So our debate and numbers is all a difference of Semantics.

Yes, I am basically with you that it breaks the game a bit.  It was just that I had read before about it being bugged and just got curious and that led me to mess around with the math.

A slightly imprecise analogy would be the Glock 18... in full auto it has a rate of fire of 1000rpm+.  Put it in semi-auto (or grab a Glock 17 which is very similar in design) and you would be hard pressed to to get anywhere near that.  But if I had a cybernetic enhancement that temporarily allowed me to speed up my movements I probably could hit that rate.  However, for some reason that logic isn't applied to the other guns and I guess that is why there is the frustration.  Or rather the logic is applied but they have ridiculously low max ROFs like 145 for the Carnifex,  300 for the Predator, or 240 for the Viper.  If these were "real guns" and you had adrenaline rush, the pistols would probably all get theoretical ROFs of 1000, the semi rifles would in fact be something like 700, but the LMG would need to be 900-1000 actual full auto.  The Vindi would also end up becoming functionally fully automatic if you pulled the trigger again after a burst.  Granted, you would also need to make it such that you wouldn't hit hardly anything doing that... although the in game guns aren't real guns firing bullets so perhaps that explains the difference.

In the end, I don't know what the best solution would have been.  If they didn't want to break it perhaps they should have made its ROF more consistant with the other semi-autos.  That and it should have probably had a much larger "recoil" especially if you fire it quickly.

Modifié par capn233, 09 septembre 2011 - 07:20 .

[spartacusthegod]

Increasing the recoil on it would have made sense, especially considering it's supposed to be a high-power gun.

I was told by a friend of mine it was bugged because the fire rate for the DLC guns wasn't decreased while in ARush (and he always went with Heightened as well). Not just the Mattock, ALL of them.

[ryoldschool]

spartacusthegod wrote...

Increasing the recoil on it would have made sense, especially considering it's supposed to be a high-power gun.

I was told by a friend of mine it was bugged because the fire rate for the DLC guns wasn't decreased while in ARush (and he always went with Heightened as well). Not just the Mattock, ALL of them.

Sinosleep did an Arush comparison of all the guns, and the Mattock is the only unusual one.

sinosleep testing

[capn233]

Yeah. It is because it was written with more than 5x the rate of fire as some of the other semi autos.

Mattock: 750
Predator: 300
Viper: 240
Carnifex: 124
Scimitar: 100
Phalanx: 80

You essentially can't use the 750rpm out of ARush. All the others are easily fired at their max rate outside of ARush though.

[spartacusthegod]

ryoldschool wrote...

spartacusthegod wrote...

Increasing the recoil on it would have made sense, especially considering it's supposed to be a high-power gun.

I was told by a friend of mine it was bugged because the fire rate for the DLC guns wasn't decreased while in ARush (and he always went with Heightened as well). Not just the Mattock, ALL of them.

Sinosleep did an Arush comparison of all the guns, and the Mattock is the only unusual one.

sinosleep testing

Note, though, in the Mass Effect 2 gameplay data listed, the Mattock deals 1.3X damage against armor.  Only thing that deals better armor damage for an Assault Rifle is the Revenant.  The Carnifex deals 1.5X as well, and has a faster fire rate than the Phalanx.

Also, we have to make note of this fact: the Mattock has more damage per shot than any other assault rifle, and by a LOT too.  Revenant deals just over 20 per shot, Vindicator deals 36.8, the Avenger deals barely over 10, while the Mattock deals just over 50 damage per shot.  50 damage times 16 shots per clip is 800 damage, not including upgrades, not including ammo powers, not including the bonus damage from Adrenaline Rush.  One shot from the Widow deals about 370 damage, and an entire clip from the Revenant (assuming every single shot hit) would be just about 1600.  With the Mattock's insanely high damage per shot, fire rate, and accuracy combined, it is a vicious gun.  Adrenaline Rush doesn't necessarily make it overpowered, the gun itself is already overpowered!

Just taking those basic statistics, the Mattock is better than the other weapons, it's not unusual, considering all the DLC guns from that pack were.  The Phalanx Heavy Pistol is extremely accurate when you zoom in, has a laser sight instead of the reticle for the zoom to make sure you can always hit your target, and will two-shot just about any enemy when they have no protection left.  The Geth Plasma Shotgun has a charged shot, and with the cost of using one more shot (unless you only have one left in the clip, then it costs nothing) you can save heavy weapon ammo and almost one-shot anything that's down to one level of protection or less.

[ryoldschool]

@ spartacusthegod wrote....  Adrenaline Rush doesn't necessarily make it overpowered, the gun itself is already overpowered!


If you look at the videos in the link, its the ARush that makes that gun so much better ( rather how it is not limited in the number of shots you can get in ).

From the Thread, Without AR
"Got some unwanted headshots in with the vindicator but the mattock still
came out on top.

vindicator 16.2 seconds

mattock 12.983 seconds"

That is the time to remove the Armor off a YMIR.   Mattock is better.

Under 1 ARush
Mattock completely removes the armor, Vindicator removes only 1/2 armor in an Arush.

So instead of being 20% better without AR its 50% better with AR.

Modifié par ryoldschool, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:57 .

[JFarr74]

The Mattock seems like the better weapon

[spartacusthegod]

ryoldschool wrote...

@ spartacusthegod wrote....  Adrenaline Rush doesn't necessarily make it overpowered, the gun itself is already overpowered!


If you look at the videos in the link, its the ARush that makes that gun so much better ( rather how it is not limited in the number of shots you can get in ).

From the Thread, Without AR
"Got some unwanted headshots in with the vindicator but the mattock still
came out on top.

vindicator 16.2 seconds

mattock 12.983 seconds"

That is the time to remove the Armor off a YMIR.   Mattock is better.

Under 1 ARush
Mattock completely removes the armor, Vindicator removes only 1/2 armor in an Arush.

So instead of being 20% better without AR its 50% better with AR.

ARush does limit the number of shots you can get in.  At level one, of course not, but at Heightened ARush, yes, it does limit your firing rate.  On the 360 it does, at least.

And, idk if you saw it before, Mattock DOES deal more bonus damage against armor than other guns.  Comparing guns against armor is unfair and imbalanced, it should be tested against health, because different weapons deal different damage against different protections.

For the examples you gave: Vindicator deals 1.25 to armor, while Mattock deals 1.3.  It may not seem like much, but it DOES make a difference.  Using only one point in ARush to base it off of isn't fair, since you can't see the reduction in the fire rate for the Mattock, and using it all only against armor isn't fair either.  All weapons deal the same damage against health though, but against protections it's not fair.  especially with the heavy pistols, those deal more damage on average anyways, AND heavy pistols deal 1.5 to armor as well.

The Mattock by itself is already overpowered and is my default weapon of choice, always.  The video test is unfair and is NOT portraying the guns accurately in terms of power in general, only their armor stripping abilities.

[ryoldschool]

@ spartacusthegod What sinosleep means by one Arush is one cycle of ( probably ) heightened Arush ( not one point ). The reason why the test against armor is a fair test is because the armored enemies are the biggest pain in the neck in the game. What they are saying is that the Mattock is a good gun, but because of how it functions under Arush it is way powerful. You can take out the final boss on Overlord with only the Mattock, Arush and inferno ammo.

I would be suprised if they don't change how that works for ME3.

[capn233]

They will. You can put a suppressor on it to make it even more ridiculous

[JFarr74]

I wonder how much better the Mattock will be when you can upgrade it in Mass Effect 3?

[RA RA XD]

Both fantastic guns, both extremely effective: The big question (in my opinion) do you want to pay for the firepower DLC? I did and use both on my soldier. Do I regret spending money on it? Not for a moment.

Unlike that horrible inferno armor DLC such a waste

Modifié par RA RA XD, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:13 .