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[txgoldrush]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
a) Do you even get it? Bartrand's greed LEAD HIM TO CORRUPTION BY THE IDOL IN THE FIRST PLACE. Insanity was the price of his greed.  And really, its Varrics humanity, not Bartrand's that is focused on in his Act II quest.

a) No, it led him to get the idol, which turns him into a homocidal maniac which has nothign to do with greed. Insanity being the price of greed is as illuminating on human nature as LOTR's one ring of power, except that one was much better. I'd much rather have a focus on human nature only without bs like that.

The area is well known to be a monster lair but rich in minerals. They are not random.

So that just makes Hawke and company stupid.

But it does...its well known fact that lyrium in the lore kills mages and thats why she seeked it. Its like a drug. It was not just a simple random magic artifact, it was a pure form of a material that the Templars routinely used. And once again Meredith paid the price for seeking power. And not to mention the fact that the idol amplified traits she already possessed. Its human nature the reason why she was influenced by the idol in the first place, you cannot deny this. And unlike bartrand, she was at least somewhat competent before attempting to release its full power.

c) Lyrium doens't kill mages, it powers them. That's first.
Second, Templar powers come from blue lyrium in a process that involves something other than forging lyrium swords. Second, that red lyrium thing is pure lyrium that Templars do not use.

It's irrelevent to me why she wants it (barring the fact that it's stupid to want it in the first place), as it turns her into a maniac at the end. So it's not human nature at the end. Her human nature might have faciliated the idol turning her nuts, but at the end of the day, it's the idol turnign her nuts. So why not scrap it and let it really be about human nature? And it becomes even mroe irrlevent wwhen we dont' even know of Meredith as a character until the last 10 minutes of the game.

And Meredith was always incomeptent, for the first time in Thedas' history, common folk spit on templar faces and help mages and that's in Act 2. Not to mention how bad a job she is doing seeing how the city is infested with blood mages and demons.

Lets call Dethmold and Geralt stupid now along with Cullen....Geralt can actually ask Dethmold where Seltkirk's Armor is WHILE GERALT IS WEARING IT. Dethmold in return idiotically will not realize that Geralt is wearing it and still tells him that the traitor still has it. This is an error in the game, like the Cullen scene you showed as well. Almost RPGs have this inconsistancy.

d) This is a stupid scene yes, but unlike that of Cullen, it's an error. It's the convo not recognizing having the armor on.
In DA2, it's the game giving you the choice to denounce Anders, while knowing full fell that Cullen will do nothing about it. This goes beyond dialogue not recognizing equipment. Cullen even looks at Anders and says he knows who Hawke is talking about.

So it's not an error. It's lazy crappy writing.

The Grand Cleric's failure to step in does help escalate the conflict, she is not completely innocent in all that, however, she is also afraid of taking sides, a rational reason. She tries to be nuetral on a moving train and it became to late. But she is far from a stupid character, just not a courageous one in the end in stopping the conflict. She was also late in reigning in fanatics in Act II as well. She represents a moderate who is afraid to mediate a growing crisis.

e) So one who is incompetent and not fit to have her place (whom the Chantry tolerates for 7 years). Which I wouldn't mind if DA2 had people who were competent.

Actually, the group accuses Hawke of working for Meredith, thats why they kidnap one of his allies an dlure him to the coast. They believed him to be their enemy, which is rational as he basically was. Its Grace that goes to far, unexpecting to half the group. The other half follows her to their deaths however.

f) Actually, they don't. They kidnap to lure Hawke to try and get him to join them. Even if Hawke demonstrated that he is pro-mage, so they have no reason to do so and no reason to believe he was an enemy. They are just being stupid.

Grace was clearly an obssesed lunatic who was also the lvoer of a weird cult leader. Why does any mage want to follow her? Idiocy.

a) You still don't get it. You really put to much into the idol and not the fact that actions have consquences. And I also said that the theme is ahow the dark side of human nature esclates conflicts and situations. Well Bartrand's greed does JUST THAT. That cannot be refuted.

and Hawke like almost any WRPG character can be made to be stupid, its nothing new. And how many real life mining accidence happen because the company or the workers are careless and stupid?

c) Well, Meredith attempted to use it. And like I said, its not the drugs fault that the user gets addled by it, its the user who chooses to use the drugs knowing the risks. And Templars should know the risks of lyrium very well. She made a choice to use it to gain more power. Stories can use multiple means to show that seeking power can corrupt and in DAII's case, it uses the idol.

d) Both scenes come from very lazy development and both scenes can be patched out (both have not been). They are both errors. And on more than one occassion Geralt can ask about a plot point that he has already solved, the armor example is just the most gross example.

e) Is she incompetent? Not really. She is quite popular in her psoition. She just lacks courage to stop the conflict as she does not want to be seen supporting either side.

f) If Hawke is pro-mage, hed be working for Orsino (who has to answer to Meredith). The Circle is not favored among apostates. Is how they handled Grace's scene botched? Yes it is, and I have mentioned that earlier in this thread. But that doesn't make the mage who saves your companion stupid.

[Addai]

txgoldrush wrote...

Its okay for a character to tell their background, but they also need to play roles in the plot. DAO characters outside of Allistair and Morrigan play little to no role in the plot.

So there's Alistair and Morrigan, and in DA2 you have Varric, Isabela and Anders.  That's one more plot-central character than in Origins.  This is what you're building a whole point around?  Oh, wait- Loghain is also a party member.  Point completely blown. 

This, beside the fact that if a character is plot-central then their actions are scripted which presents difficulties for making players feel like their choices matter.  You don't even need to ever talk to Anders or Isabela, and they're still going to frak stuff up.  How does that inherently make them any better characters?

Modifié par Addai67, 26 juin 2011 - 08:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

txgoldrush wrote...
a) You still don't get it. You really put to much into the idol and not the fact that actions have consquences. And I also said that the theme is ahow the dark side of human nature esclates conflicts and situations. Well Bartrand's greed does JUST THAT. That cannot be refuted.

Yes it can. Because the idol does not make his greed worse. The idol turned him into a homocidal maniac, which has nothing to do with greed. So it doesn't escallate anything, it just turns him into a lunatic with no depth to him.

And dark side of human nature escallating conflicts? Then why do you even need the idol in the first place? Lazy writing, that's why.

and Hawke like almost any WRPG character can be made to be stupid, its nothing new. And how many real life mining accidence happen because the company or the workers are careless and stupid?

Not so stupid as to go to a mine that they know is infested with monsters, and not hiring guards in in the process. Security failures might happen with corruption, incompetence and error, but that implies that there is at least security.

c) Well, Meredith attempted to use it. And like I said, its not the drugs fault that the user gets addled by it, its the user who chooses to use the drugs knowing the risks. And Templars should know the risks of lyrium very well. She made a choice to use it to gain more power. Stories can use multiple means to show that seeking power can corrupt and in DAII's case, it uses the idol.

Well Meredith is stupid.
Except drugs are not like an idol that can turn you into a complete maniac and turn homes into haunted nightmares and summon golem ghosts.

It uses the idol because it's lazy. And if you are tired of cliches (what you were bashign Origins about), then "power corrupts" is one of the oldest cliches that we heard a million times.

Yes, they used that method. It was a ****** poor method that had little to no character development. To try and say it's human nature is just white washing how lazy it is. That's not human nature. That's just a poor excuse.

d) Both scenes come from very lazy development and both scenes can be patched out (both have not been). They are both errors. And on more than one occassion Geralt can ask about a plot point that he has already solved, the armor example is just the most gross example.

No, they are not. Both are product of laziness, but one involves convo not recognizing equipment (or not recognizing that a quest is done). And one involves Cullen recognizing the PC's concern and recognizing the accused, and still having him not do anything because he's a lazy moron. Drastically different.

e) Is she incompetent? Not really. She is quite popular in her psoition. She just lacks courage to stop the conflict as she does not want to be seen supporting either side.

That makes her, and her entire Chantry, incompetent.

f) If Hawke is pro-mage, hed be working for Orsino (who has to answer to Meredith). The Circle is not favored among apostates. Is how they handled Grace's scene botched? Yes it is, and I have mentioned that earlier in this thread. But that doesn't make the mage who saves your companion stupid.

Yes it does, for following Grace in the first place.
Ad Hawke coudl have assited the mage underground in Act 2 and coudl have helped Grace escape and both she and Thrashk know this. But they acted like imbeciles.

[txgoldrush]

Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Its okay for a character to tell their background, but they also need to play roles in the plot. DAO characters outside of Allistair and Morrigan play little to no role in the plot.

So there's Alistair and Morrigan, and in DA2 you have Varric, Isabela and Anders.  That's one more plot-central character than in Origins.  This is what you're building a whole point around?

This, beside the fact that if a character is plot-central then their actions are scripted which presents difficulties for making players feel like their choices matter.  You don't even need to ever talk to Anders or Isabela, and they're still going to frak stuff up.  How does that inherently make them any better characters?

First of all, Aveline also plays a major role in story, thats four characters to Origins two. Then Merill and Sebastian also plays their roles in some plot scenes as well. That means that DAII's characters in general play a far bigger role in the plot than DAO characters do.

So when does having choice even make a story good? But then there are great games like Tactics Ogre where choices do matter and characters play major scripted roles in the plot. Same with the Witcher games. DAO is just lazy not involving the characters in the plot. You can have both chocies that matter AND characters that are scripted. In fact that makes the world much more believable.

[Addai]

txgoldrush wrote...

First of all, Aveline also plays a major role in story, thats four characters to Origins two. Then Merill and Sebastian also plays their roles in some plot scenes as well. That means that DAII's characters in general play a far bigger role in the plot than DAO characters do.

Aveline has no role in the main plot at all.  She could easily be replaced by random refugee #5 and later on by random guard captain #8.  You're just stretching things to suit your theory, whether it makes sense or not.

DAO is just lazy not involving the characters in the plot. You can have both chocies that matter AND characters that are scripted. In fact that makes the world much more believable.

Earlier you were defending ME2 because a lot of the story is about the team.  Well a lot of Origins is about the Warden growing from a young, sometimes traumatized recruit into the kind of character who can lead an army- that starts with recruiting allies and leading them.  So you're willing to make allowances for other games to tell a certain kind of story, but you just want to bash Origins whether your points make any sense or not.

I would still like to know why you're even attempting it.  Origins is a very successful and critically praised game.  Are you just the windmill tilting sort?  Or just trying to stir the poo?

[SkittlesKat96]

 Yeah I agree that DA II is a decent game but I still think DAO is better for reasons people have said.

You still kind of have some good points though OP, DA II isn't extremely terrible of a game I suppose.

[erynnar]

Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

First of all, Aveline also plays a major role in story, thats four characters to Origins two. Then Merill and Sebastian also plays their roles in some plot scenes as well. That means that DAII's characters in general play a far bigger role in the plot than DAO characters do.

Aveline has no role in the main plot at all.  She could easily be replaced by random refugee #5 and later on by random guard captain #8.  You're just stretching things to suit your theory, whether it makes sense or not.

DAO is just lazy not involving the characters in the plot. You can have both chocies that matter AND characters that are scripted. In fact that makes the world much more believable.

Earlier you were defending ME2 because a lot of the story is about the team.  Well a lot of Origins is about the Warden growing from a young, sometimes traumatized recruit into the kind of character who can lead an army- that starts with recruiting allies and leading them.  So you're willing to make allowances for other games to tell a certain kind of story, but you just want to bash Origins whether your points make any sense or not.

I would still like to know why you're even attempting it.  Origins is a very successful and critically praised game.  Are you just the windmill tilting sort?  Or just trying to stir the poo?

Ooooh, oooh! I choose door number 2 Monty...stir the poo! What do I win?

[nakrato]

Well this has either to be the worst or the best thread ever. Best becasue it's just entertaining, worst because almost everybody state their opinions as facts, and anybody who does not think the same way are stupid and have gottenit all wrong. And it has been stated up to multiple times that people in here agree that both games have good sides and bad sides, werent that the point that were tried to be made here?

[txgoldrush]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
a) You still don't get it. You really put to much into the idol and not the fact that actions have consquences. And I also said that the theme is ahow the dark side of human nature esclates conflicts and situations. Well Bartrand's greed does JUST THAT. That cannot be refuted.

a) Yes it can. Because the idol does not make his greed worse. The idol turned him into a homocidal maniac, which has nothing to do with greed. So it doesn't escallate anything, it just turns him into a lunatic with no depth to him.

And dark side of human nature escallating conflicts? Then why do you even need the idol in the first place? Lazy writing, that's why.

and Hawke like almost any WRPG character can be made to be stupid, its nothing new. And how many real life mining accidence happen because the company or the workers are careless and stupid?

Not so stupid as to go to a mine that they know is infested with monsters, and not hiring guards in in the process. Security failures might happen with corruption, incompetence and error, but that implies that there is at least security.

c) Well, Meredith attempted to use it. And like I said, its not the drugs fault that the user gets addled by it, its the user who chooses to use the drugs knowing the risks. And Templars should know the risks of lyrium very well. She made a choice to use it to gain more power. Stories can use multiple means to show that seeking power can corrupt and in DAII's case, it uses the idol.

Well Meredith is stupid.
Except drugs are not like an idol that can turn you into a complete maniac and turn homes into haunted nightmares and summon golem ghosts.

It uses the idol because it's lazy. And if you are tired of cliches (what you were bashign Origins about), then "power corrupts" is one of the oldest cliches that we heard a million times.

Yes, they used that method. It was a ****** poor method that had little to no character development. To try and say it's human nature is just white washing how lazy it is. That's not human nature. That's just a poor excuse.

d) Both scenes come from very lazy development and both scenes can be patched out (both have not been). They are both errors. And on more than one occassion Geralt can ask about a plot point that he has already solved, the armor example is just the most gross example.

d) No, they are not. Both are product of laziness, but one involves convo not recognizing equipment (or not recognizing that a quest is done). And one involves Cullen recognizing the PC's concern and recognizing the accused, and still having him not do anything because he's a lazy moron. Drastically different.

e) Is she incompetent? Not really. She is quite popular in her psoition. She just lacks courage to stop the conflict as she does not want to be seen supporting either side.

e) That makes her, and her entire Chantry, incompetent.

f) If Hawke is pro-mage, hed be working for Orsino (who has to answer to Meredith). The Circle is not favored among apostates. Is how they handled Grace's scene botched? Yes it is, and I have mentioned that earlier in this thread. But that doesn't make the mage who saves your companion stupid.

f) Yes it does, for following Grace in the first place.
Ad Hawke coudl have assited the mage underground in Act 2 and coudl have helped Grace escape and both she and Thrashk know this. But they acted like imbeciles.

a) since when does greed itself have to be escalated?...The entire situation was esclated and made much worse because of his greed. He and those around him were destroyed by his greed, THAT IS THE POINT. You refuted my point poorly.

And since when does Hubert care about his workers, they are expendable to him (and one even betrays him). Hawke can buy the mine just so he can protect the workers. And when the High Dragon attacks, he mourns his lost equipment way more than the workers, which can lead to an angry response from Hawke. Also Hawke is the security....what makes you think he won't deal with problems that pops up at the mine duringthe gap between acts.

c) How is the idol use lazy? Notice how several times in the script that characters blame human weakeness not magic for their problems, including even Merrill if you have to kill her. Bethany as well. Even if magic or that idol helps spiral people into madness, the dialogue from the more grounded characters places the blame on the people, not the plot device.

d) Since when did Cullen ignore what Hawke told him. What if he did pass along the message, but was too late anyway? The scene is botched not with Cullen being stupid, but for being allowed to happen with Anders in the party. If Anders was not in the party, the scene works, plain and simple.

e) So its incompetent not to a) become an even bigger target for the mages or lose her position by siding with the mages. Even then, Anders kills her because she could be an agent of compromise.

f) Hawke also killed Decimus as well as left them to eventually be captured, so she is mad at Hawke even for helping her out, Is it handled well? No. But that hurts Graces character and not anyone else.

[txgoldrush]

Addai67 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

First of all, Aveline also plays a major role in story, thats four characters to Origins two. Then Merill and Sebastian also plays their roles in some plot scenes as well. That means that DAII's characters in general play a far bigger role in the plot than DAO characters do.

Aveline has no role in the main plot at all.  She could easily be replaced by random refugee #5 and later on by random guard captain #8.  You're just stretching things to suit your theory, whether it makes sense or not.

DAO is just lazy not involving the characters in the plot. You can have both chocies that matter AND characters that are scripted. In fact that makes the world much more believable.

Earlier you were defending ME2 because a lot of the story is about the team.  Well a lot of Origins is about the Warden growing from a young, sometimes traumatized recruit into the kind of character who can lead an army- that starts with recruiting allies and leading them.  So you're willing to make allowances for other games to tell a certain kind of story, but you just want to bash Origins whether your points make any sense or not.

I would still like to know why you're even attempting it.  Origins is a very successful and critically praised game.  Are you just the windmill tilting sort?  Or just trying to stir the poo?

Aveline plays a significant role in Act II, not only along with Isabela, but she is the one to meet the Arishok before he attacks. Aveline is also bonded with the Hawkes through tragedy, so she is closer to Hawke than ANY OTHER CHARACTER.

Only really it isn't about him or her growing to become leader of an army...and really in the end its about sacrifices heroes have to make and the grim duty the Warden must undertake (becoming a Warden itself is a sacrifice). And really, delaying the info that it must be a Warden that slays the Archdemon is actually very determental to the plot. Well now you tell me I am very important...lol.. Loghain and Alistair can even be the one to slay the Archdemon, not the Warden, why can't they be the heroes. A problem with DAO is that it doesn't establish its themes until the end. Almost all other Bioware games establish theirs much earlier.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 26 juin 2011 - 09:18 .

[FiveThreeTen]

All I know is that I will replay Da:O in the future and I will enjoy it. Can't say the same about its sequel. The only thing I can think of that could motive another playthrough of Da2 is playing a new class on Nightmare...when I really have nothing better to do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

txgoldrush wrote...
a) since when does greed itself have to be escalated?...The entire situation was esclated and made much worse because of his greed. He and those around him were destroyed by his greed, THAT IS THE POINT. You refuted my point poorly.

So now you are saying that Bartand indirectely causing all this mess is human nature escallating?
That's just coincidence that a dwarf happens to want to go on an expedition, who happens to be right over a primordial thiag, which happens to have a weird idol, which he happens to take because of greed, which happens that it turned him nuts, which happens that he sold her to a woman, which happens to be Meredith, which happens to be the zealous incompetent KC, which happens to be in Kirkwall, which happens to be the most unstable Circle in Thedas.

That is supposed to be Bartrand's greed escallating the conflict in a meaningful way so as to say that DA2 is such an epic analysis of human nature? Eh good for you I guess.

The idol was not necessary at all, and even counter-produc tive, to makign this story human.

And since when does Hubert care about his workers, they are expendable to him (and one even betrays him). Hawke can buy the mine just so he can protect the workers. And when the High Dragon attacks, he mourns his lost equipment way more than the workers, which can lead to an angry response from Hawke. Also Hawke is the security....what makes you think he won't deal with problems that pops up at the mine duringthe gap between acts.

A business man not providing security for his mine is an imbecile, at least to protect it from thieves who might just go in and steal whatever they unearthed.

And HAwke is the security? You're joking right? Him sitting in his noble house, that's the security?
Why doesn't he camp in the mine to make watch 24/7?

c) How is the idol use lazy? Notice how several times in the script that characters blame human weakeness not magic for their problems, including even Merrill if you have to kill her. Bethany as well. Even if magic or that idol helps spiral people into madness, the dialogue from the more grounded characters places the blame on the people, not the plot device.

A case of telling, not showing. It's lazy becaue Meredith had no character development to justify making her go insane, so they use the idol. Lazy, because it makes no sense that most mages are insane, except if you have the enigma of Kirkwall. 

d) Since when did Cullen ignore what Hawke told him. What if he did pass along the message, but was too late anyway? The scene is botched not with Cullen being stupid, but for being allowed to happen with Anders in the party. If Anders was not in the party, the scene works, plain and simple.

It doesn't, because in that scene he recognizes Anders. He says something different if Anders is in not in the party.
The scene is botched and Cullen is stupid. He is also stupid for not knowing you're a mage when you're clearly one. For still following Meredith despite him saying she might be going insane...etc.

e) So its incompetent not to a) become an even bigger target for the mages or lose her position by siding with the mages. Even then, Anders kills her because she could be an agent of compromise.

Anders killed her because people thought she was an agent of compromise, while in reality she was just a delayer and Anders believed there was no compromise.
And yea, it's incompetent in her situation not to do anything at all.

f) Hawke also killed Decimus as well as left them to eventually be captured, so she is mad at Hawke even for helping her out, Is it handled well? No. But that hurts Graces character and not anyone else.

She might have helped Hawke kill Decimus.
It hurts those who follow her. In addition to them still following her when she is an abomination.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 juin 2011 - 09:33 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

lets just face it Dragon Age 2 was a failure

[txgoldrush]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
a) since when does greed itself have to be escalated?...The entire situation was esclated and made much worse because of his greed. He and those around him were destroyed by his greed, THAT IS THE POINT. You refuted my point poorly.

a) So now you are saying that Bartand indirectely causing all this mess is human nature escallating?
That's just coincidence that a dwarf happens to want to go on an expedition, who happens to be right over a primordial thiag, which happens to have a weird idol, which he happens to take because of greed, which happens that it turned him nuts, which happens that he sold her to a woman, which happens to be Meredith, which happens to be the zealous incompetent KC, which happens to be in Kirkwall, which happens to be the most unstable Circle in Thedas.

That is supposed to be Bartrand's greed escallating the conflict in a meaningful way so as to say that DA2 is such an epic analysis of human nature? Eh good for you I guess.

The idol was not necessary at all, and even counter-produc tive, to makign this story human.

And since when does Hubert care about his workers, they are expendable to him (and one even betrays him). Hawke can buy the mine just so he can protect the workers. And when the High Dragon attacks, he mourns his lost equipment way more than the workers, which can lead to an angry response from Hawke. Also Hawke is the security....what makes you think he won't deal with problems that pops up at the mine duringthe gap between acts.

A business man not providing security for his mine is an imbecile, at least to protect it from thieves who might just go in and steal whatever they unearthed.

And HAwke is the security? You're joking right? Him sitting in his noble house, that's the security?
Why doesn't he camp in the mine to make watch 24/7?

c) How is the idol use lazy? Notice how several times in the script that characters blame human weakeness not magic for their problems, including even Merrill if you have to kill her. Bethany as well. Even if magic or that idol helps spiral people into madness, the dialogue from the more grounded characters places the blame on the people, not the plot device.

c) A case of telling, not showing. It's lazy becaue Meredith had no character development to justify makign her go insane, so they sue the idol. Lazy, because it makes no sense that most mages are insane, except if you have the enigma of Kirkwall. 

d) Since when did Cullen ignore what Hawke told him. What if he did pass along the message, but was too late anyway? The scene is botched not with Cullen being stupid, but for being allowed to happen with Anders in the party. If Anders was not in the party, the scene works, plain and simple.

It doesn't, because in that scene he recognizes Anders. He says somethign different if Anders is in the party.
The scene is botched and Cullen is stupid. He is also stupid for not knowing you're a mage when you're clearly one. For still following Meredith despite him saying she might be going insane...etc.

e) So its incompetent not to a) become an even bigger target for the mages or lose her position by siding with the mages. Even then, Anders kills her because she could be an agent of compromise.

e) Anders killed her because peopel thought she was an agent of compromise, while in reaity she was just a delayer and Anders believed there was no compromise.
And yea, it's incompetent in her situation not to do anythign at al.

f) Hawke also killed Decimus as well as left them to eventually be captured, so she is mad at Hawke even for helping her out, Is it handled well? No. But that hurts Graces character and not anyone else.

She might have helped Hawke kill Decimus.
It hurs those who follow her. In addition to them still following her when she is an abomination.

a) and when does flaws of human nature not have indirect consquences just as much as direct ones? Because of Bartrand's greed, a dangerous artifact gets loose. It fits the theme no matter how you slice it. Because of human flaws, such as Bartrand's greedy nature, the situation and the conflict gets worse. And characters embracing dangerous objects and ideas can and will fit this theme. You are trying your best to say it doesn't when it does.

A major reason why Herbert sells him half the mine.

c) But Meredith does have character development and a motive..did you ever talk to her about her sister?

d) Actually the dialogue does not change if Anders is not present. He knows Anders is part of Hawke's crew regardless. And how Cullen would not know your a mage...he knows but doesn't hold it against you because you helped him. You can mention your a mage to him anyway and that you are not all the same. And following Meredith is simply his duty as a Templar. It would actually been more stupid to go against her at the wrong time. Yeah lets challange someone with a big red magic sword, alone...thats not smart. When he does confront her, Hawke is on his side and he has a better chance of stopping her.

e) She defuses the situation at the very start of Act III, how is that incompetent. She is conflicted in dealing with the conflict because there is no easy answer for her. She will be villianized either way. Is her delay costly? Yes...but she is not incompetent by delaying. However, she is successful at keeping the situation at hand for the most part and everything goes to hell once she is killed. In fact, had Orsino brought the Cleric successfully into the argument in the final mission, there may have been a compromise.

f) The group openly used blood magic, did they not? The templars even allowed it. its not nonsensical that hey would still fight Hawke after Grace turns into an abomination. However, only half the group fights Hawke.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 26 juin 2011 - 09:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

txgoldrush wrote...
a) and when does flaws of human nature not have indirect consquences just as much as direct ones? Because of Bartrand's greed, a dangerous artifact gets loose. It fits the theme no matter how you slice it. Because of human flaws, such as Bartrand's greedy nature, the situation and the conflict gets worse. And characters embracing dangerous objects and ideas can and will fit this theme. You are trying your best to say it doesn't when it does.

If that's what you consider human nature escallating the conflict, I can tell you that DA:O has the same and even more. Heck, the entire blight is supposed to represent what humans did to the Golden City.
If that's what you think is human nature, and dont' bash Origins for doing the same (and better).

It fits the theme poorly, and does a ****** poor job at showing real human nature in action. It needs outside elements to move the plot. THat for me is sign of laziness.

c) But Meredith does have character development and a motive..did you ever talk to her about her sister?

That's character exposition in the last 10 minutes of the game. Not development.
Character evelopment is an ongoing process that also invovles showign and not just telling.

d) Actually the dialogue does not change if Anders is not present. He knows Anders is part of Hawke's crew regardless. And how Cullen would not know your a mage...he knows but doesn't hold it against you because you helped him. You can mention your a mage to him anyway and that you are not all the same. And following Meredith is simply his duty as a Templar. It would actually been more stupid to go against her at the wrong time.

Except he says to a mage Hawke that "mages are not people like you and I".
And the only reason the Tempalrs did not catch Anders is because of the Champion, which is bs if the Champion had always been pro-Templar. So why aren't they doing anything?

His duty is not to obey an insane women that everyone is saying might be nuts in the head. His duty is to inform the Chantry of this.

e) She defuses the situation at the very start of Act III, how is that incompetent.

She just delays it, she does not diffuse it at all, tensions kept escallating.

And the Chantry just watched by for 7 years and never thought to replace Elthina with a more active and intelligent Grand Cleric. And they never thought to replace Meredith who constantly showedc her incompetence.

f) The group openly used blood magic, did they not? The templars even allowed it. its not nonsensical that hey would still fight Hawke after Grace turns into an abomination. However, only half the group fights Hawke.

Because they want to follow an abomination...why?
The other half is for following Grace in the first place.

[Wulfram]

DA2's ending doesn't have anything quite as bad as the way Warden Alistair keeps thinking he is King

[blothulfur]

Well to me Origins isn't about the blight and its "cliche" good versus evil plot (what story isn't cliche as it's a few millenia since Gilgamesh's quest was first written down), it is about my dwarven commoner and his slow introduction to the world that reflects my own as he learns of the Qun through Sten, the chantry through many others and so on.

It's a real survivors tale from the moment he raised his branded cheek to the screaming crowds of the proving until he stood over the corpse of a corrupted god shelterd by Morrigans witchery and with a wink to her drove his sword through its skull.

At the end of the day I made many choices throughout origins and the world shook to the passing of each of my characters, in DA2 I sat around with a bloke I knew nothing of and his supposed family of total strangers and after a few years of inactivity and ignorance went forth once more to do some repetitive combat vogueing, farm golden quest notices (hey moron click this) and change absolutely nothing as I rose to apathy.

Oh and then at the end Hawke conscious of all this crap he's made me endure runs away rendering my choices void, nice think i'll stick with origins.

[Jaldaric]

Wow, this is still ongoing? I'd just like to say, KnightOfPheonix is making the most sense OP. You keep flip-flopping around. Anyways, this image should explain it all, OP.

[Yrkoon]

bobthecrusher wrote...

So, are the moderators even paying attention? I mean, 14 pages in a day screams flame war to me. This thread has run out of its usefulness, it has (and has been from about page 2) just the same arguments rebuttled by 'Nun-uh!' whether it's someone in support of DA:O or DAII

that's my two cents

I'm glad the mods are steering clear of this thread.  Sometimes the best way to deal with a baiter is to  pile up and rip his arguments to shreds, and let everyone view the destruction for themselves in real time, which is what's currently happening to the poor OP... from all angles.

This thread should be stickied.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 26 juin 2011 - 12:11 .

[billy the squid]

Jaldaric wrote...

Wow, this is still ongoing? I'd just like to say, KnightOfPheonix is making the most sense OP. You keep flip-flopping around. Anyways, this image should explain it all, OP.

*snip*

This

several Individuals, including me, have already explained at length how flimsy the reasoning behind his points are. But, considering I have explained at length the issues regarding LOTR, DAO and the similarities or overlaps which appear to be inherent in all fantasy games to some extent and the OP returns with an answer equivalent to
"but it is, because it is" I think he is being deliberately obstinate.

P.s When it comes to articulate, coherent discussion KnightOfPheonix is in a different league to the OP, who has for some time now been grasping at straws.

Modifié par billy the squid, 26 juin 2011 - 12:13 .

[Fallstar]

Dragon Age Origins is not 'highly over-rated'. It may be so in your opinion, but I think its rated pretty accurately, thank you very much, so don't presume to speak for me OP.

I do not think that DA:2 does many things better. In fact, I'm now trying to think of something it does do better to appear reasonable, but I'm struggling. Oh well.

[Rokky94]

I like some minor things about DA2 better: The mage's attack animation is better than DA:O's. 2handed warriors are better in DA2, and so are the archers.

That's it though. Comparing the two games together, I can come up with three things that I like better in DA2, kinda says something about the game.

[Slayer299]

txgoldrush wrote...
1. I don't liek the crafting system in DAII, its way to simple, but DAOs crafting is tedious as well. The Witcher 2's crafting sytem is what the DA team should implement for DAIII.

haven't played TW2, can't say anything about it.

2. I do like waves, but DAII does do them mostly wrong. The demon group waves are fine, the mercs are silly. Waves force players to actually reposition their party which is not a bad thing.

we agree the wave implementation SUCKED.

3. It rips off several ideas from LOTR, just enough to lose its uniqueness.

in *your* opinion, not something carved in stone. I disagree with you.

4. Anders - boy does his character deteroriate. Pay attention and you will find that his relationships with every character, even Varric, become strained. Notice how he loses his senseof humor.

I never said Anders was well written, I said he was actually important to the plot. Character wise he falls apart over time.

I notice you didn't say anything about Merrill, Fenris or Izzy and how well rounded they are or even important in the least to the plot which they aren't.

5. Because the Qunari vs The City and Mages vs Templars were not the overall conflict....the conflict is more conceptual. Not every conflict is man vs man....its really "Hawke vs the human nature to escalate conflicts and bad situations". This covers all three acts storylines, the bone pit mine quests, almost every companion quests, and more. Thats why both Orsino and Meredith fall, because madness and despair consume them. Now, I think they botched Orsino in the ending, but the idea to fight both characters isn't flawed.

Hawke vs human nature??? Hawke only can escalate every situation she's in. She only has 1 answer to all situations, kill everything.
No, as stated by even the devs. Act 2 was political/relgiious with Qunari vs the Chantry/QUnari vs. Kirkwall and Act 3 was sort f M v T.  Merri doesnt' fail because she's consumed by despair, she fails as a villain because she's controlled/manipulated by an outside influence beyond her control and turns into a total fruit loop in Act 3.

[Slayer299]

txgoldrush wrote...
Didn't I already say that Fenris was the exception? He is the only party member that doesn't play a role in the main plot. However, in many quests, he can take over a scene, especially if slavers are involved. His presence can limit your choices!!! Wayward Son is an example.

But hwe has no purpose in the main plot. You can replace him with anyone and not lose anything from the main plot. The same goes for Merrill and she hardly adds more than most of your party in DAO.

Aveline, Varric, Isabela, and Bethany/Carver all play major roles in the plot.

What exactly unique thing does any of those NPC's add that can't be done by generic Guard, Theif, Mage/Fighter. Only Varric is not replaceable since he is backwards telling the story.

The difference between ME2 and DAO is that the plot really revolves around the cast of ME2. Notice the story is more about how Shepard and his crew prepare for the suicide mission, much more than the mission itself. Also all six crew members play major roles in the plot at certain times in the first ME, even Liara if you bring her to Noveria. Oh and you say Ashley didn't factor in th emain plot? Wow...did you know their was a scene in Virmire where you have to choose between her and Kaiden who lives and who dies?

The incident on Virmire happens if you leave Ash behind with the STG or on the Normandy, the same goes for Kaiden Noveria's plot doesn't  change beyond some dialogue if you bring Liara. ANd yes, I've played ME once or twice.
In ME2 the story *is* the recruitment and loyalty missions, not stopping the Reapers/Collectors, Casey has said that multiple times

Not only is KOTOR II's TSLRM hailed, its content is considered CANON. Mod makers didn't creat the droid factory, Obsidian did. Even without the TSLRM, party members play a very significant role in the plot...way more so than DAO.

I'm heard that it was supposed to be in the game, but it ( and bunches of other content) was cut out due to time constraints from LA wanting a super short dev time, having never played that part I cannot comment on it, nor can many others who don't have the mod either. So my point that you cannot use a mod still stands since that part was not in the vanilla install of KOTOR2.