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[TEWR]

Uldred was connected to Loghain and the Urn was needed to restore Eamon to health so he could help you depose Loghain..

[Il Divo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Uldred was connected to Loghain and the Urn was needed to restore Eamon to health so he could help you depose Loghain..

'Beyond building up an army'.

[csfteeeer]

Il Divo wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

I must have missed the disjointed bit on all my playthroughs of DA:O. DA2 wasn't disjointed, it was spazmodicily reticulated.

I didn't miss it on my first playthrough.

1. Stopping Uldred
2. Crowning a new Dwarven King
3. Murdering the Werewolves
4. Urn of Sacred Ashes

Aside from 'building an army', what do any of these things have to do with the main plot of DA:O, which revolves around stopping the darkspawn/Archdemon, and deposing Loghain?

Most of them are well-written, fun sub-stories, but sub-stories they remain. None of these listed above develop the narrative. Bioware gave us four recruitment missions because that sounds like a good amount of content. They could have given us three, twenty, or none. The main plot does not change, making it disjointed.

I'm Sorry, but that's not true.

First off, yes, the quest feel like Sub stories, but at the end, you see those stories for one reason.... Build the army.
what do you want? just arrive and say "Give Me your armies" and they say "bah, why not?", where is the game there? that's just not entertaining , not to mention, it makes a good focus on the hole "Thedas is the Protagonist" thing, it introduces us to the world, if we just arrive at the place and they give us armies immediately, then we would have to find out the lore all by our selves, and that's not good, and like i said, you're are there to build the army, it's an overarching plot, it's just slow moving.

Not to mention, from The Arl of Redcliffe to the Urn of Sacred ashes, to the section where the hole crisis starts in Denerim, the plot finally takes off, and at a good rate at that.

it's a slow but efficient pace, and besides, one the biggest reasons in an RPG (at least Fantasy RPGs) is to get you lost in the world, and thanks to the characters, i think they did it fairly well(although they really need to start making their cities more alive)

as a matter of fact, Mass Effect 2 had a similar pace, but multiplied:

in DAO, Prologe ----> In Between ----> plot speeds up -----> End

in ME2, Prologue ------> In Between -----> Plot speeds  up ------> In Between -----> plot speeds ups -----> In Between ----> End

it's harder to notice because Mass Effect 2 is shorter, but is like that, you revive, you end the prologue, and then you start recruiting a team, then a scripted mission (plot) kicks off, repeat.

However like i said, it's harder to notice because ME2 is shorter,  so it works a little better there, but it is no different.

[Addai]

Il Divo wrote...

Aside from 'building an army', what do any of these things have to do with the main plot of DA:O, which revolves around stopping the darkspawn/Archdemon, and deposing Loghain?

And again, go play your linear hand-holding games if you like them- which is just about every game made- and leave the rest of us to play our crappy ARPEEGEEs.  Why are you even here dissing a great game?  Just to prop up a mediocre game?  Brilliant plan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

csfteeeer wrote...
First off, yes, the quest feel like Sub stories, but at the end, you see those stories for one reason.... Build the army.

Problem is, you are told you're building an army, but you really don't.

The story is about you being a commander and rallying up an army under your command, but the game does a very poor job at showing it. I am not saying they should have turned post Landsmeet into an RTS, that would be unfeasible. But they should have given us options that makes it look like we are really a commander. Something like Awakening, only more fleshed out.

Also, other than Orzammar, I really did not see the point in helping anyone else. I mean most mages were supposedely massacred in the botched revolt. What would possibly make me believe in the game that mages can form up an army now? Many Templars were also killed and other than reinforcements that we are told are supposdely being requested, I don't see a Templar army either. Or the Dalish. You go there and Zathrian tells you that all Dalish Clans have left already and that he would have done the same if he could. Ok....so why should I waste my time on a single Dalish Clan that already got its ass kicked? Or Werewolves, I loved having the option, but you slaughter so many on the way that you're left wondering if there are even a few dozens left.  Same with the Sacred Urn that felt like such a remarkable waste of time.

But the game tells me not to worry, because the army is still going to be build anyhow. Ok.
Can I at least have an estimate of how many troops I have under my command? Nope. I get a somewhat silly financial support system with emissaries that camp in my camp. But that's about it.

This is a huge flaw in Bioware design. They tell (poorly when it comes to politics and warfare), but they do not show. most of the time. DA:O told us it's about building an army, but the actual game itself has you go from place to place, do a certain quest, options A B or C and then you're told you have an army that you never see or command. 

That said it's stil better than the virtual nothing we got in DA2 in many ways. But I agree with Exile. DA2 is the result of Bioware's outdated formula that's been done to death, gone to the extreme.  

[TEWR]

Also, other than Orzammar, I really did not see the point in helping anyone else. I mean most mages were supposedely massacred in the botched revolt. What would possibly make me believe in the game that mages can form up an army now? Many Templars were also killed and other than reinforcements that we are told are supposdely being requested, I don't see a Templar army either. Or the Dalish. You go there and Zathrian tells you that all Dalish Clans have left already and that he would have done the same if he could. Ok....so why should I waste my time on a single Dalish Clan that already got its ass kicked? Or Werewolves, I loved having the option, but you slaughter so many on the way that you're left wondering if there are even a few dozens left. Same with the Sacred Urn that felt like such a remarkable waste of time.

The cinematics show dozens of mages marching out of the tower, and one mage was able to slaughter a whole line of Darkspawn using flame blast in the 4th Blight cinematic.

The cinematics also show thousands (at least 2000) of dwarves, hundreds of elves, etc..

There are various forest locales in Ferelden, so a few clans were bound to be in the country. Plus, we don't know how many elves are in one clan.




there you go.


I would've loved to actually issue orders to my troops though. I am leading them .

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juin 2011 - 04:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The cinematics show dozens of mages marching out of the tower, and one mage was able to slaughter a whole line of Darkspawn using flame blast in the 4th Blight cinematic.

The cinematics also show thousands of dwarves, hundreds of elves, etc..

There are various forest locales in Ferelden, so a few clans were bound to be in the country. Plus, we don't know how many elves are in one clan.

The cinematics that show up at the end of the game after you were told you're gathering an army. Where were those mages before? What in-game, could possibly make me believe that the Circle Tower had more than a few mages for me to build an army from them?

Orzammar I understand. Elves no, as Zathrian already said that the clans were leaving. I suppose if you go there first it might make sense, but if you save it for last, what is there in the game that would make me believe it's possible to build an army out of elves? And we don't know how many are in a clan? Then why doesn't the game show us properly so we can get an idea? What I had was a Dalish clan, which as far as I am concerned is comprised of a few dozens, that got its ass kicked by a few werewolves. That's who I am supposed to be counting on.

A cinematic at the end is no where near enough to sollidify the plot, not when it comes way after you've spent hours doing what you're told to do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 04:07 .

[TEWR]

Where were they before? I dunno, but you did save them if you went that route. Bioware didn't show them in the tower. Doesn't mean they weren't there. Maybe Godwin's armoire leads to Narnia.

Don't get me wrong though, it would be nice to have actually seen the tower be restored and mages roaming about after I complete that quest.

It doesn't take 2.5 years to restore a tower that is comprised of 4-5 floors and is easily traversed in one day. You burn the corpses, pick up the books, and burn the flesh sacks on the walls.



EDIT: You know, the more I post on topics you post in, the more I end up seeing all the flaws in Origins.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juin 2011 - 04:14 .

[Sutekh]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Orzammar I understand. Elves no, as Zathrian already said that the clans were leaving. I suppose if you go there first it might make sense, but if you save it for last, what is there in the game that would make me believe it's possible to build an army out of elves? And we don't know how many are in a clan? Then why doesn't the game show us properly so we can get an idea? What I had was a Dalish clan, which as far as I am concerned is comprised of a few dozens, that got its ass kicked by a few werewolves. That's who I am supposed to be counting on.

Wasn't there a messenger at Zathrian's clan who told you he was about to go seek the other clans? You could even ask him about yours, if Dalish, and he'd get them a message from you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Where were they before? I dunno, but you did save them if you went that route. Bioware didn't show them in the tower. Doesn't mean they weren't there. Maybe Godwin's armoire leads to Narnia.

I only saved Wynne, Godwin, and a few old men as far as I am concerned.

That's the problem. Bioware keeps assuming that it can get away with what it doesn't show us. It has a very big divide between lore and gameplay / what we see in the game. In DA2, that was taken to the absurd extreme.
Now I still enjoyed DA:O because I rped the hell out of it in my head. But that's just illusionary.

[TEWR]

Sutekh wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Orzammar I understand. Elves no, as Zathrian already said that the clans were leaving. I suppose if you go there first it might make sense, but if you save it for last, what is there in the game that would make me believe it's possible to build an army out of elves? And we don't know how many are in a clan? Then why doesn't the game show us properly so we can get an idea? What I had was a Dalish clan, which as far as I am concerned is comprised of a few dozens, that got its ass kicked by a few werewolves. That's who I am supposed to be counting on.

Wasn't there a messenger at Zathrian's clan who told you he was about to go seek the other clans? You could even ask him about yours, if Dalish, and he'd get them a message from you.

Unless halla can fly and he had his own personal halla, I don't expect him to have made much progress on foot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sutekh wrote...
Wasn't there a messenger at Zathrian's clan who told you he was about to go seek the other clans? You could even ask him about yours, if Dalish, and he'd get them a message from you.

I know, but that's after you chose who you wanted. And it's still telling and not showing. I am told after helping the elves that they can apparently reach clans that have left potentially a long time ago. How I have no idea. 

Why can't I get estimates for my army's numbers? I mean what kind of screwed up idiot of a commander goes to war without having the slightest idea how many men he commands?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 04:16 .

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Orzammar I understand. Elves no, as Zathrian already said that the clans were leaving. I suppose if you go there first it might make sense, but if you save it for last, what is there in the game that would make me believe it's possible to build an army out of elves? And we don't know how many are in a clan? Then why doesn't the game show us properly so we can get an idea? What I had was a Dalish clan, which as far as I am concerned is comprised of a few dozens, that got its ass kicked by a few werewolves. That's who I am supposed to be counting on.

Wasn't there a messenger at Zathrian's clan who told you he was about to go seek the other clans? You could even ask him about yours, if Dalish, and he'd get them a message from you.

Unless halla can fly and he had his own personal halla, I don't expect him to have made much progress on foot.

Regarding what? Finding the PC's clan? Yes, plot hole indeed. But for the other clans, it could work. After all, time is strange in Thedas, so he could've had the time to find enough other clans during Redcliffe/Fort Drakon/Landsmeet.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Where were they before? I dunno, but you did save them if you went that route. Bioware didn't show them in the tower. Doesn't mean they weren't there. Maybe Godwin's armoire leads to Narnia.

I only saved Wynne, Godwin, and a few old men as far as I am concerned.

That's the problem. Bioware keeps assuming that it can get away with what it doesn't show us. It has a very big divide between lore and gameplay / what we see in the game. In DA2, that was taken to the absurd extreme.
Now I still enjoyed DA:O because I rped the hell out of it in my head. But that's just illusionary.

Oh I agree. When I went back to the tower on my first playthrough I was like "You guys haven't cleaned this up yet? I've been gone a while now. At least a couple of months. Please clean up the decaying corpses."

And when I saw the mages marching, I wondered where they were in game. But I just decided to go with it. While cheap, the cinematic was better than nothing.

At least Redcliffe showed more guards, militia, and knights returning or going into service when you returned.


From now on though, I'm assuming Godwin's armoire leads to Narnia. It's the only acceptable solution

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[TEWR]

Sutekh wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Orzammar I understand. Elves no, as Zathrian already said that the clans were leaving. I suppose if you go there first it might make sense, but if you save it for last, what is there in the game that would make me believe it's possible to build an army out of elves? And we don't know how many are in a clan? Then why doesn't the game show us properly so we can get an idea? What I had was a Dalish clan, which as far as I am concerned is comprised of a few dozens, that got its ass kicked by a few werewolves. That's who I am supposed to be counting on.

Wasn't there a messenger at Zathrian's clan who told you he was about to go seek the other clans? You could even ask him about yours, if Dalish, and he'd get them a message from you.

Unless halla can fly and he had his own personal halla, I don't expect him to have made much progress on foot.

Regarding what? Finding the PC's clan? Yes, plot hole indeed. But for the other clans, it could work. After all, time is strange in Thedas, so he could've had the time to find enough other clans during Redcliffe/Fort Drakon/Landsmeet.

Not just the PC's clan, but all clans.

A lone elf is easy prey --- Merrill

Bandits, Darkspawn, people who are racist to elves, werewolves (random encounter in Origins), etc.. He wouldn't make much progress on foot by himself. Unless there were at least 4 elven clans camped in the forest.

[Sutekh]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sutekh wrote...
Wasn't there a messenger at Zathrian's clan who told you he was about to go seek the other clans? You could even ask him about yours, if Dalish, and he'd get them a message from you.

I know, but that's after you chose who you wanted. And it's still telling and not showing. I am told after helping the elves that they can apparently reach clans that have left potentially a long time ago. How I have no idea. 

Why can't I get estimates for my army's numbers? I mean what kind of screwed up idiot of a commander goes to war without having the slightest idea how many men he commands?

I see your point (didn't feel like a Commander myself, tbh). Was only addressing the "number of elves" one.

[Sutekh]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not just the PC's clan, but all clans.

A lone elf is easy prey --- Merrill

Bandits, Darkspawn, people who are racist to elves, werewolves (random encounter in Origins), etc.. He wouldn't make much progress on foot by himself. Unless there were at least 4 elven clans camped in the forest.

Maybe there were a couple others? Maybe he was very skillful? Maybe he knew the forests very well and could dodge dangers?

(OK, I'm grasping at straws.  This is one of those moments when suspension of disbelief comes in handy.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

I really want to compare this to another game that didn't have you as a commander and yet did a much better job at warfare (with one major exception). But it's the game that shall not be named and everyone will be pissed off even if it's a valid comparison.

[TEWR]

I have a feeling I know. Does it have a main character with cat like eyes, silverish hair, and this game was made by Polish people?


I can name two that did a good job. Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juin 2011 - 04:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes.
Heck, it doesn't even tell you about the negotiations between Henselt and Saskia. It allows you to play the sequence and even determine it yourself. And in a council, it at least gave us a rundown about the numbers they have: how many dwarves, how many peasants, how many nobles and knights and how many elves. And it had a vast military camp just for Henselt's vanguard (500) and right across the river you can see an even larger camp.

It of course didn't show everything, that's unfeasible. But it showed more than enough for the purposes of the plot, that it was very immersive. Sadly the battle of Vergen on Iorveth's path is a disappointment in that regard.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 04:40 .

[billy the squid]

In Exile wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
As I said, Anora and Arl Eamon do give you some information although it is quite brief, but I think it could have been expanded on and we don't learn a great deal of what Loghain has been up to until the Landsmeet section of the game, but this is one of issues in the way in DAO was conveyed, the different parts of the main quest to secure allies feels more seperated from the main plot, only linked to the overarching theme of the blight in a rather loose manner. 

I'm not saying you don't get information - I'm saying DA2 handles it the same way.

I have never claimed DAO is a classic or a shining beacon of how things should be done, it has numerous problems from how it handles the plot to the actual gameplay itself. But, I don't think that DA2's faults are entirely derived from DAO's reception, particularly considering the shift in design direction to DA2, there is a problem in that DA2 didn't fix many of the problems of the original and added more

DA2 was a game designed just like any other Bioware game. The flaws in DA2 (story-wise) are the same as in DA:O, or KoTOR, or ME, or ME2. My point is that Meredith was given about as much attention and build up (story wise) as Loghain. Arguing that Loghain as better because of more screen time is just not true. Loghain was better received, sure, but in the end he didn't get a weird plot-hole justification (like the archdemon controlling his mind) and there was an 'epic' enemy after that the audience was a sucker for.

Now, Loghain vs Meredith, I think Loghain was handled better in terms of the character potrayal rather than the amount of content, inspite of the limited information there was enough to draw some conclusions as the motivation behind his current actions at Ostagar  where he is first introduced as the antagonist and remains present throughout even if whilst recruiting allies he dissapears somewhat, but, this is an issue with how the plot progresses. The Arch demon for me was a plot device to create an overarching theme to bind the game together, it was okay, but not particularly good.

Meredith had as much slow build up, all pushing to the same conclusion. As I said: if you remove the idol, it's just the story of a woman who, in her quest to keep everyone safe, slowly has her sanity slip out from under her.

Whereas Meredith doesn't appear until the end of Act 2, considering she is supposed to be one of the most important figures in Kirkwall, I would have though we would see her influence earlier, even if it remains subtle. The issue with info about Meredith it is only able to be gained through the completion of certain quests particularly in Act 3, otherwise one is left with several question marks over why she acts in this manner. This is exacerbated by the way in which DA2's plot progresses with each act feeling disjointed from the others.

Meredith appears in Act I. She's alluded to right at the start of the prologue, when the guards tell you the templars actually control Kirkwall, and again when you talk to Bethany or Carver before the expedition about cracking down, and then Cullen talking to you about her after Enemies Among Us. In Act II we hear more about the templars cracking down on the mages via Varric, all before we finally meet Meredith.

DAO had an overarching theme even if the many of the main quests were only loosely associated with the plot, his  subsequent disappearance in the middle of the game with the exception of some cutscenes didn't seem to damage Loghain to the same degree, as his involvement and some of his motivations had already been established at Ostagar and the meeting with the Bannorn where he declares himself regent. Whilst more information is revealed later towards the end when events start to reach a head

DA2 didn't focus on Meredith until Act III. If Loghain gets a pass because of DA:O's disjointed story, so should Meredith.

It handles the information in a similar way yes. However, unless one sides with Meredith in Act 3 you do not get the additional information regarding her back story through dialogue options which provides a better context to her character.

Who said anything about screen time? Loghain's motivations for the betrayal at Ostagar are at least hinted at right at the beginning and the cutscenes simply allow players to follow his actions and his ongoing problems with the Bannorn whilst the player is engaged in the recruitment of characters. The fact that Loghain appears more often through the game is neither here nor there. As long as his actions in the period are at least alluded to and his subsequent shift in character and reasoning for actions are expounded upon, such as the circle quest line and redcliff, I don't think it really matter whether he appears on screen or not. That is not to say that it was handled perfectly as it wasn't.

From what I can remember the information one is given about Meredith at the begining of the game is fairly superficial, Only when you talk to cullen and Meredith herself in Act 3 do you gain more details other than the templars are cracking down on mages and Kirkwall is their power base in the Free marches which as far as plot details don't really lend themselves to giving making Meredith more interesting. 

True enough we were not given a biography of Loghain's life in DAO, but we were given enough information to determine that there is a conflict between the king and Loghain, dependant on the Orlesians, the darkspawn and the coming battle, and further information is given throughout the game.

Whilst Act 3 relies on the conflict between Mages and Templars and so Meredith is focused on more I would have liked to have seen more character development and the ongoing tension between both factions throughout the earlier Acts which is lacking, other than the fairly minor points we are given. the seperatio of each Act of DA2 causes problems as we don't get the same flow
 
Loghain's machinations after ostagar are still present throughout the game in the various quests, ie: the circle where we learn that he promised Uldred greater freedom, As such Logahin's involvement throughout the game is illustrated through this even though he is not involved in the quest. 

DAO was not disjointed rather the individual sub quests are loosely linked by an overarching theme to stop the blight, although it could have been handled better, only some of them have additional details linking it to the political turmoil in Ferelden. In addition it would be jarring for those factions you seek aid from to simply say yes without any caveats it would also make the game completely pointless, so one has to depart from the plot to a degree to secure the alliances, although they remain linked to the ongoing plot.

DA2's seperate acts cause problems as Act 3 focuses on Meredith and the mage Templar conflict, but the preceeding acts have little to do with this, which makes the game feel disjointed, we are given information by cullen, but there is very little exposition regarding Meredith until Act 3 only the dislike of Templars and Mages. Meredith would have benefited with more time to explore her character and the politics in Kirkwall outside of Act 3.

Modifié par billy the squid, 27 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[TEWR]

One thing I didn't like about Origins was how we could "acquire" our own fortress.


Soldier's Peak was useless after the quest. Even worse, you can't recruit anybody in the game, even those who volunteer. I really wanted to recruit Seweryn the Dwarf since he wanted to join. And Jowan.

One would think that with your own fortress you could use that as another base of operations. Instead it's entirely useless even with a mended Veil.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

One thing I didn't like about Origins was how we could "acquire" our own fortress.


Soldier's Peak was useless after the quest. Even worse, you can't recruit anybody in the game, even those who volunteer. I really wanted to recruit Seweryn the Dwarf since he wanted to join. And Jowan.

One would think that with your own fortress you could use that as another base of operations. Instead it's entirely useless even with a mended Veil.

Yea it was useless. I would have loved being able to ship ghouls to Avernus at the very least.

And have the Drydens bring more people, I don't know maybe a militia made up of those who believe in the wardens and who are revolting. At least try to make it useful, other than having a nice shop or two. 

[TEWR]

It seems like the Warden Commander shipped something to Avernus as DA2 tells us. I would think that what was shipped were non-Disciple Darkspawn.


Origins is great, but there were many ways the game could've been better.

[phoenixgoddess27]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

One thing I didn't like about Origins was how we could "acquire" our own fortress.


Soldier's Peak was useless after the quest. Even worse, you can't recruit anybody in the game, even those who volunteer. I really wanted to recruit Seweryn the Dwarf since he wanted to join. And Jowan.

One would think that with your own fortress you could use that as another base of operations. Instead it's entirely useless even with a mended Veil.

To be fair, it was the same with the Bone Pit. You could "acquire" it, but can't do crap with it.

I was a bit disappointed with Soldier's Peak, but at least it solved my inventory problem