318 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

XX55XX wrote...

For some reason, I disapprove of this retconning. Why wasn't he gay in the first game, then? Yes, characters can come out of the closet and change in ways that we can scarcely imagine, but it better be well written if such a romance were to believable. Shepard needs to ask Kaidan/Ashley why they weren't willing in the first game, and there better be a good reply.

However, as a Talimancer, I daresay I probably won't be pursuing a relationship with either Kaidan nor Ashley anyways.

It's not a retcon.

It would be called an "a*spull."  Which is nothing that hasn't been done by Bioware before.

There is a difference.

[ipgd]

XX55XX wrote...

For some reason, I disapprove of this retconning. Why wasn't he gay in the first game, then? Yes, characters can come out of the closet and change in ways that we can scarcely imagine, but it better be well written if such a romance were to believable. Shepard needs to ask Kaidan/Ashley why they weren't willing in the first game, and there better be a good reply.

However, as a Talimancer, I daresay I probably won't be pursuing a relationship with either Kaidan nor Ashley anyways.

Apparently I have to post this again:

Retcon is a specific word refering to a specific kind of change. To constitute a retcon, a change has to directly contradict a previously established fact of the continuity and retroactively assert its reality over the previous one.

Because Kaidan has never actually fully established his sexuality -- he only confers an opinion on women, and makes no statements or actions whatsoever that would indicate his stance on sexual relations with men, positive or negative or otherwise -- there are no established facts of the continuity to contradict. Through metagame knowledge, we may assume that Kaidan is straight and thus see this as a mechanical change, but it is not a retcon. Retcons refer exclusively to in-world facts explicitly established through text. Your assumptions, inferences and wild mass guesses are not established facts. When a change contradicts your assumptions, it is a change that contradicts your assumptions, but it is not a retcon.

To be a retcon, Kaidan would have to have explicitly stated or demonstrated at some point, in the game, that he had no interest in men. Furthermore, the change would have to assert that that statement never even happened. If Kaidan were to have stated that he had no interest in men, but in ME3 becomes willing to engage in a relationship with a male Shepard and justified that attraction with an explanation like "YOU ARE SO SPECIAL SHEPARD THAT I'M WILLING TO BANG YOU EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT USUALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN JUST LIKE GARRUS ISN'T INTO HUMANS BUT BANGS FEMALE SHEPARD ANYWAY" or "I was lying because I was insecure/embarrassed/confused" or even "I inhaled a magical space spore and now I want to **** EVERYTHING", it would still not be a retcon because those explanations would explicitly acknowledge and reinforce the existence of previously established facts in the continuity (i.e. that Kaidan had made statements expressing a disinterest in men).

Yet again, retcon does not mean "any change I don't like". A change can be an asspull, a wallbanger, a god-awful franchise destroying jumping of the shark without being a retcon. Stop using this goddamn word to mean anything you want it to.

[ElitePinecone]

XX55XX wrote...
Why wasn't he gay in the first game, then?

Bisexual. Not gay. 

And there will be a reason of some sort, we just don't know what it is yet 

Bioware's writers know people's concerns and from everything I've been reading on Twitter they're responding to them with the dialogue they create. 

[shepskisaac]

XX55XX wrote...
For some reason, I disapprove of this retconning. Why wasn't he gay in the first game, then?

Becuase gay romances are at the bottom of the 'to-do' priority list since gay men happen to be small in numbers. Time constraints made BW chose gay romances to axe from the first game to focus on the rest of the game.

XX55XX wrote...
Yes, characters can come out of the closet and change in ways that we can scarcely imagine, but it better be well written if such a romance were to believable. Shepard needs to ask Kaidan/Ashley why they weren't willing in the first game, and there better be a good reply.

Kaidan's explanation is actually already written there in ME1. He thinks Shep is straight. It's already part of the story, nothing more needs to be added. He admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) and he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew. He assumes the same thing about ManShep. But with the obvious gender difference, it's only FemShep that he thinks he has a chance with since a straight woman likes men, so he doesn't hold back from flirting with her. Straight ManShep (in his assumption) doesn't like men, so no flirting/hitting on. It'll be Shepard that will have to make the first move and let Kaidan know he ain't straight.

XX55XX wrote...
However, as a Talimancer, I daresay I probably won't be pursuing a relationship with either Kaidan nor Ashley anyways.

Sure, it's only an option like many others you don't have to use, everyone is free to pick the LI he/she likes. However, it's just sad how you talk about retcons as a Talimancer. She's the original example of how a previously non-romancable character can reveal his/her feeling later in the franchise. As a Talimancer, you know perfectly that not expressing the interest initially is not an evidence of lack of the interest. Most importantly, You know calling it a 'retcon' does not make any sense whatsoever. Retcons overwrite and contradict previously established facts, bisexual Kaidan doesn't contradict nor overwrite anything, especially his attraction and relationship with FemShep since bisexual men like other men AND women. Tali opening up in ME2 didn't contradict anything from ME1 either.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 juin 2011 - 06:12 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Tali wasn't a retcon she experienced character development.


Kaiden is a retcon because he was established straight for 2 games didn't go for the 3 some option in ME and is now bi for 3. If he hinted back in ME not being opposed to the 3some offer but just didn't want it to be done with Liara then he would've not been a retcon.

Still opposed to past LI being made s/s options for 3.

fine with brand new characters being made s/s options for 3.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 30 juin 2011 - 08:07 .

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Tali wasn't a retcon she experienced character development.

Kaiden is a retcon because he was established straight for 2 games didn't go for the 3 some option in ME and is now bi for 3. If he hinted back in ME not being opposed to the 3some offer but just didn't want it to be done with Liara then he would've not been a retcon.

Are you just pretending you don't get it or actually don't get it? Most likely the former. But I'll repost this anyway:

Retcon is a specific word refering to a specific kind of change. To constitute a retcon, a change has to directly contradict a previously established fact of the continuity and retroactively assert its reality over the previous one.

Because Kaidan has never actually fully established his sexuality -- he only confers an opinion on women, and makes no statements or actions whatsoever that would indicate his stance on sexual relations with men, positive or negative or otherwise -- there are no established facts of the continuity to contradict. Through metagame knowledge, we may assume that Kaidan is straight and thus see this as a mechanical change, but it is not a retcon. Retcons refer exclusively to in-world facts explicitly established through text. Your assumptions, inferences and wild mass guesses are not established facts. When a change contradicts your assumptions, it is a change that contradicts your assumptions, but it is not a retcon.

To be a retcon, Kaidan would have to have explicitly stated or demonstrated at some point, in the game, that he had no interest in men. Furthermore, the change would have to assert that that statement never even happened. If Kaidan were to have stated that he had no interest in men, but in ME3 becomes willing to engage in a relationship with a male Shepard and justified that attraction with an explanation like "YOU ARE SO SPECIAL SHEPARD THAT I'M WILLING TO BANG YOU EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT USUALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN JUST LIKE GARRUS ISN'T INTO HUMANS BUT BANGS FEMALE SHEPARD ANYWAY" or "I was lying because I was insecure/embarrassed/confused" or even "I inhaled a magical space spore and now I want to **** EVERYTHING", it would still not be a retcon because those explanations would explicitly acknowledge and reinforce the existence of previously established facts in the continuity (i.e. that Kaidan had made statements expressing a disinterest in men).

You can repeat it's a retcon how many times you want and it still won't be one.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 30 juin 2011 - 08:18 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Still opposed to past LI being made s/s options for 3.

fine with brand new characters being made s/s options for 3.

No wai.

I could have sworn it was the other way around last time, but okay.

Also retcon: you keep saying that, I don't think you know what it means.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 juin 2011 - 08:27 .

[Estelindis]

Not to be funny or anything, but how does turning down a threesome with two females establish that a character is not bisexual? Am I the only person to whom this argument makes no sense?

To me, that scene establishes that Kaidan wants Shepard to make the same full-on commitment to him that he has made to Shepard. Nothing to do with sexual orientation per se, all to do with wanting to share his love with one special person.

[Ryzaki]

Everytime I hear someone who says Kaidan/Ash being bi is a retcon but Tali is somehow character development I facepalm.

Tali was as much a retcon as Ash/Kaidan was. (or more like an asspull whatever) if one's a retcon SO IS THE OTHER.

[KawaiiKatie]

Ryzaki wrote...

Everytime I hear someone who says Kaidan/Ash being bi is a retcon but Tali is somehow character development I facepalm.

People seem to think that it's impossible or "character-breaking" for two same-sex friends to develop undisclosed feelings for one another. But when opposite-sex friends do it, oh man, that's something else entirely! It's just natural! When a man and a woman become good friends and work closely together for a long time, it's inevitable that they fall for one another! Tali was just showing character development!

But two men? No way! Retcon! You can break their epic bromance! That's just wrong!

[Siansonea]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Tali wasn't a retcon she experienced character development.


Kaiden is a retcon because he was established straight for 2 games didn't go for the 3 some option in ME and is now bi for 3. If he hinted back in ME not being opposed to the 3some offer but just didn't want it to be done with Liara then he would've not been a retcon.

Still opposed to past LI being made s/s options for 3.

fine with brand new characters being made s/s options for 3.

Yeah, "retcon"... I don't think it means what you think it means. And obviously it doesn't take much for someone to establish 100% permanent 100% exclusive heterosexuality in your book. Boy are you in for some interesting life experiences...

But hey, you stick to your guns, you hold the line for what's really important. Go you. While you're at it, can you also hold the line against actual STORY retcons (once you understand what that actually means)? That would be great.

[Ryzaki]

Cerberus was the biggest retcon in ME. 

"KILL HIM!" - ME1 

"We brought you back to life because apparently you weren't ENOUGH of a pain in our ass." - ME2 

WTF 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[ADLegend21]

Tali's romance was character development? it was the PUREST form of RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY "She always had a thing for you Shepard"-Liara; that's past tense. If anything Garrus's romance is development since he never harbored a crush on Femshep in ME1, but Tali was apparently chmping at the bit to roamcne Maleshpe, which is why she never mentioned anything but her people throughout the entire game. Also, Raiden, Ash/Kai being establsihed as striaght for TWO games? I'm sorry but nothing on Horizon was even close to establishing their sexuality since I couldn't find it over them yelling at Shepard for working with Cerberus.

[Russalka]

I have always wondered why them being a bisexual option gets singled out as the worst thing ever, a detriment to the storyline or a fan service, when the game is riddled with these kinds of things. And no one seems to mind most of them.

Modifié par Russalka, 30 juin 2011 - 09:25 .

[AC5]

Ryzaki wrote...

Cerberus was the biggest retcon in ME. 

"KILL HIM!" - ME1 

"We brought you back to life because apparently you weren't ENOUGH of a pain in our ass." - ME2 

WTF 

They're just trying to create a logical paradox to defeat the reapers. 

[BatmanPWNS]

Well good for some people I guess.

[Siansonea]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Tali's romance was character development? it was the PUREST form of RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY "She always had a thing for you Shepard"-Liara; that's past tense. If anything Garrus's romance is development since he never harbored a crush on Femshep in ME1, but Tali was apparently chmping at the bit to roamcne Maleshpe, which is why she never mentioned anything but her people throughout the entire game. Also, Raiden, Ash/Kai being establsihed as striaght for TWO games? I'm sorry but nothing on Horizon was even close to establishing their sexuality since I couldn't find it over them yelling at Shepard for working with Cerberus.

Not to mention the quarian immune system issue went from "OMG we'll die if we take off our suits" to "meh, it's just a glorified allergic reaction, I just need antibiotics, now sex me down Sheppypookins!". Yeah. Just to be clear, in real life, antibiotics are not an appropriate treatment for anaphylactic shock. The More You Know.

[Estelindis]

Nor is taking a few herbal supplements. I must admit that I rolled my eyes when I heard that line while watching the scene on YouTube. But to each their own.

Modifié par Estelindis, 30 juin 2011 - 10:18 .

[KawaiiKatie]

But you guys, Tali took medicine! Lots and lots of medicine! That's enough to replace an entire immune system!

.....okay, but, no, seriously, I kind of love how they established this "medicine can make anybody sexable" precedent, because it's my strongest argument for Jokermance. If anyone is going to have "character development" that allows them to go from "just friends" to "official boot-knocker," I want it to be Joker.

....bisexual Joker.

.......please. <3

[Siansonea]

Russalka wrote...

I have always wondered why them being a bisexual option gets singled out as the worst thing ever, a detriment to the storyline or a fan service, when the game is riddled with these kinds of things. And no one seems to mind most of them.

Well, because two boys kissing is just icky!!! *rolleyes* It cracks me up how THIS is the place where people draw the line in the sand. So many stupid facepalm moments that should have incited "character continuity" uproar—and...dead silence. But two boys kissing...absolutely lore breaking. <_<

[Siansonea]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Tali romance is not a retcon.

Then neither is Kaidan/Ashley/whoever as s/s. 

[Estelindis]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Tali romance is not a retcon.

If it's not a retcon for Tali to exhibit attraction to a character in a later game when she showed no particular attraction to said character in a previous game, then it's not a retcon when any other character does it either - am I right?

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Tali romance is not a retcon.

Then neither is Kaidan/Ashley/whoever as s/s.

That's right. Also, I've never said that it would be a retcon. That was never in any of my arguments.

Just that bisexuality would be character breaking, or a "serious blow" to the very "foundation" of Kaidan's very character.