318 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

So what exactly IS your objection?

[KawaiiKatie]

Indeed not?

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

In my opinion, just about all the characters have taken hits on their structure. I don't want anymore damage being done to that structure.

Yeah, because bisexuality would be such a huge hit to the "structure" of Kaidan's character. <_<

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 30 juin 2011 - 10:37 .

[Ryzaki]

Estelindis wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Tali romance is not a retcon.

If it's not a retcon for Tali to exhibit attraction to a character in a later game when she showed no particular attraction to said character in a previous game, then it's not a retcon when any other character does it either - am I right?

 

Screw that Tali would probably still be more of a . "Oh I loved you all along." all along when you didn't give a single clue of it to anyone but socially dumb Liara? Who is socially smart enough not to tell Shepard? And the people you're around don't notice this? 

...Yeah totally somehow less of a retcon than Ash/Kaidan. *headdesks* 

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

[Bisexuality] wouldn't ruin the character, but to me it would damage them.

"Kaidan, what's wrong?"

"I- I'm just so damaged, Commander!"

"Are you wounded?"

"No, it's... it's something in my STRUCTURE! I can feel it! It... it makes me WANT you!"

"Huh, Tali was showing the same symptoms-"

"No, no! That's DIFFERENT! Tali's ALWAYS been that way, even if she didn't SHOW it! AT ALL!"

"But-"

"Hush, Commander. Don't speak. Just.... take me."

<3

[Ryzaki]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Tali romance is not a retcon.

If it's not a retcon for Tali to exhibit attraction to a character in a later game when she showed no particular attraction to said character in a previous game, then it's not a retcon when any other character does it either - am I right?

 

Screw that Tali would probably still be more of a . "Oh I loved you all along." all along when you didn't give a single clue of it to anyone but socially dumb Liara? Who is socially smart enough not to tell Shepard? And the people you're around don't notice this? 

...Yeah totally somehow less of a retcon than Ash/Kaidan. *headdesks* 

I don't think either are retcons.

I wasn't talking about you. I was speaking of this gem: 

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Tali wasn't a retcon she experienced character development.


Kaiden is a retcon because he was established straight for 2 games didn't go for the 3 some option in ME and is now bi for 3. If he hinted back in ME not being opposed to the 3some offer but just didn't want it to be done with Liara then he would've not been a retcon.

Still opposed to past LI being made s/s options for 3.

fine with brand new characters being made s/s options for 3.

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

My objection is that characters have taken enough hits, and changing sexuality is another hit I'd rather avoid, in my opinion. It wouldn't ruin the character, but to me it would damage them.

Also, I really just wanted to point out that the Tali romance is not a retcon, and people are using the word retcon wrong.

Damage them how exactly?  Don't take this as an attack, I was genuinely curious.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 juin 2011 - 10:51 .

[Siansonea]

I guess I'm more worried about the "structure" of, you know, the STORY. Bisexual Whomever isn't going to be a big deal, one way or the other, if BioWare does something boneheaded, like make Cerberus an enemy in ME3 even though we were working for them in ME2 and even handed them a bright shiny new Collector Base—oh wait. Hmmmm.

But maybe I have different priorities...

[XX55XX]

Interpretation of "in-game evidence" is always more of an art than a science. We all like to bend the evidence our way.

Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game. 

[Ryzaki]

I'm more scared Cerberus is gonna get retconned. AGAIN. 

ME1 - KILL SHEPARD
ME2 - WORK WITH SHEPARD AND TRY TO GET HIM TO JOIN US
ME3 - KILL SHEPARD EVEN IF HE CONSIDERS HIMSELF APART OF US

W. T. F. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 juin 2011 - 10:54 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

XX55XX wrote...

Interpretation of "in-game evidence" is always more of an art than a science. We all like to bend the evidence our way.

Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game. 

And so does male Shepard.  And Garrus became Shepsexual between ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 juin 2011 - 10:53 .

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

That's funny. But once again, you're taking it a bit far. You are also ignoring other things I have said.

Yeah, we're obviously done here. Over and over again you state that "nobody's listening to you!" and that Tali's romance was okay because you started the series in the middle and that bisexuality is just one more horrible thing that Bioware can do to their characters! Even now I can imagine you typing "I never said it would be horrible! You're not listenign to me!" and, no, you never said it would be horrible, but you did say that it would be a damaging hit to the "structure" of his character.

Oh, but  even when I quote you directly, I'm taking you out of context! I'm just not paying attention! Poor you. So misunderstood.

You promised me once that when Kaidan's bisexuality is confirmed, you'll shut up about it. That day cannot come soon enough.

[XX55XX]

RinjiRenee wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Interpretation of "in-game evidence" is always more of an art than a science. We all like to bend the evidence our way.

Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game. 

And so does male Shepard.  And Garrus became Shepsexual between ME1 and ME2.

Male Shepard is the player character. And Garrus... well... let's say that he suddenly started having feelings for female Shepard in ME2. It's a matter of character development.

[Rinji the Bearded]

XX55XX wrote...

Male Shepard is the player character. And Garrus... well... let's say that he suddenly started having feelings for female Shepard in ME2. It's a matter of character development.

And Kaidan can't develop feelings for male Shepard during the span of one game?

[XX55XX]

RinjiRenee wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Male Shepard is the player character. And Garrus... well... let's say that he suddenly started having feelings for female Shepard in ME2. It's a matter of character development.

And Kaidan can't develop feelings for male Shepard during the span of one game?

Like I've said, such a romance would need incredible writing for it to be believable. Especially after what I've seen in ME1 (and yes, I did play as a female Shepard in one of my walkthroughs and romanced Kaidan).

I've never thought of Kaidan as a bisexual person, but who knows... People keep more to themselves than they want to. 

[Siansonea]

XX55XX wrote...

Interpretation of "in-game evidence" is always more of an art than a science. We all like to bend the evidence our way.

Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game. 

You know what, I could live without a big to-do about Kaidan not coming on to ManShep in ME1. I would much rather BioWare explain how Shepard could DIE and COME BACK TO LIFE, how Shepard's BRAIN and MEMORIES could SURVIVE PAST DEATH AND SEVERE CELLULAR/NEUROLOGICAL TRAUMA. How Shepard, after defeating Cerberus at every turn in ME1, after witnessing the death of Admiral Kahoku, the atrocities on Binthu and Nepheron, and hearing the anguished testimony of Corporal Toombs—how Shepard could POSSIBLY even CONSIDER working for Cerberus so easily. 

And baby Reapers made of warm liquid goo pureé o' humans—what the eff is that shiz?

Yeah, on my list of "BioWare You Got Some 'Splainin' To Do", Bisexual Kaidan is not even in the top 10. <_<

Modifié par Siansonea II, 30 juin 2011 - 11:03 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Let me say this first: This does not only apply to sexuality. I feel the need to make that clear. So I'll say it again:

This does NOT only apply to sexuality.

It's not really to you, RinjiRenee, more or less to anyone else.

To me it's damaging because it shows that the characters are just completely malleable with no real structure or foundation, and makes me not believe that they are characters, just Play-doh.

Hey, it's cool brah, I knew you weren't attacking sexuality.

But I don't think a change in a character that doesn't detract from his original character (him becoming bisexual would only add, not detract) is damaging.  He'll still be Kaidan in the wash.  Just more receptive to male Shepard flirting with him, when male Shepard wasn't even capable of doing so in the past.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 juin 2011 - 11:04 .