318 réponses à ce sujet

[XX55XX]

Siansonea II wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Interpretation of "in-game evidence" is always more of an art than a science. We all like to bend the evidence our way.

Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game. 

You know what, I could live without a big to-do about Kaidan not coming on to ManShep in ME1. I would much rather BioWare explain how Shepard could DIE and COME BACK TO LIFE, how Shepard's BRAIN and MEMORIES could SURVIVE PAST DEATH AND SEVERE CELLULAR/NEUROLOGICAL TRAUMA. How Shepard, after defeated Cerberus at every turn in ME1, after witnessing the death of Admiral Kahoku, the atrocities on Binthu and Nepheron, and hearing the anguished testimony of Corporal Toombs—how Shepard could POSSIBLY even CONSIDER working for Cerberus so easily. 

And baby Reapers made of warm liquid goo pureé o' humans—what the eff is that shiz?

Yeah, on my list of "BioWare You Got Some 'Splainin' To Do", Bisexual Kaidan is not even in the top 10. <_<

Good point, but the story is so beyond repair that I don't even care where it goes in ME3. Who knows, maybe "germs" will kill the Reapers, a la World of the Worlds. 

[Estelindis]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...


To me it's damaging because it shows that the characters are just completely malleable with no real structure or foundation, and makes me not believe that they are characters, just Play-doh.

I do see where you're coming from on this front.  I think that Kaidan and Ashley have had this happen to them to a certain extent in that their animations and dialogue on Horizon have very little to separate them, even though they are foils for each other in most respects (e.g. Ash's pure combat skills vs. Kaidan's biotic/tech combo, Ash feeling humans must be practical and look after themselves first since no one else will while Kaidan finds strength in understanding and cooperation between species, etc.).  On the plus side, the fact that both refused to change their stance on Cerberus regardless of how much Shepard might be cooperating with that organisation does show that they're not written as just following the flow of Shepard's wishes rather than having opinions of their own.

Regardless of s/s or not, I'm hoping both characters get some excellent scenes that strongly delineate them from each other and shows what's uniquely wonderful about each of them.  Accordingly, if s/s romances are going to happen for both of them, we're going to need something more than two identical "I was too afraid to admit my feelings before" scenes.

[AC5]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

To me it's damaging because it shows that the characters are just completely malleable with no real structure or foundation, and makes me not believe that they are characters, just Play-doh.

It's a legitimate concern but, what level of malleability is acceptable to you. Also why do believe their sexuality is so ingrained in their story structure.

Siansonea II wrote...
 How Shepard, after defeating Cerberus at every turn in ME1, after witnessing the death of Admiral Kahoku, the atrocities on Binthu and Nepheron, and hearing the anguished testimony of Corporal Toombs—how Shepard could POSSIBLY even CONSIDER working for Cerberus so easily. 

Ok personal pet peeve here, while I know it wasn't touched on in ME2.

When there is an opposing organization that has managed to remain hidden for decades and suddenly attempts to turn you into a double agent you into a double agent you play along. Everything about TIM suggests he believes he can control Shepard this gives anti-Cerberus sheps an unprecedented level of access to them and, puts Shepard in the unique position of being able to force TIM's hand all under the guise of the dumb hero with nowhere to turn. Also if you were wondering the opportune time to backstab them is after the Cerberus team arrives at the collector base.

[Estelindis]

AC5 wrote...

When there is an opposing organization that has managed to remain hidden for decades and suddenly attempts to turn you into a double agent you into a double agent you play along. Everything about TIM suggests he believes he can control Shepard this gives anti-Cerberus sheps an unprecedented level of access to them and, puts Shepard in the unique position of being able to force TIM's hand all under the guise of the dumb hero with nowhere to turn. Also if you were wondering the opportune time to backstab them is after the Cerberus team arrives at the collector base.

A bit off-topic maybe, but an excellent point.  Mind you, Saren thought he could use Sovereign without becoming indoctrinated...

[Siansonea]

AC5 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
 How Shepard, after defeating Cerberus at every turn in ME1, after witnessing the death of Admiral Kahoku, the atrocities on Binthu and Nepheron, and hearing the anguished testimony of Corporal Toombs—how Shepard could POSSIBLY even CONSIDER working for Cerberus so easily. 

Ok personal pet peeve here, while I know it wasn't touched on in ME2.

When there is an opposing organization that has managed to remain hidden for decades and suddenly attempts to turn you into a double agent you into a double agent you play along. Everything about TIM suggests he believes he can control Shepard this gives anti-Cerberus sheps an unprecedented level of access to them and, puts Shepard in the unique position of being able to force TIM's hand all under the guise of the dumb hero with nowhere to turn. Also if you were wondering the opportune time to backstab them is after the Cerberus team arrives at the collector base.

Yeah, funny how Shepard never actually SAYS anything to that effect. And anyway, not good enough. Shepard compromised everything he/she stood for by just hopping on the Cerberus train without even so much as sending Captain Anderson an email. Shepard has already signed on the dotted line with Cerberus before even talking to Anderson, Udina, the Council, or ANYONE ELSE who could address the Collector threat. Mind you, at this point Shepard doesn't even know for certain that the Collectors are agents of the Reapers, it's only TIM's testimony that links the Collector abductions and the Reapers. And the disappearing human colonies, while certainly a point of concern, are a symptom, not a cause, and don't really directly address the Reaper threat in any way.

[Siansonea]

XX55XX wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Interpretation of "in-game evidence" is always more of an art than a science. We all like to bend the evidence our way.

Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game. 

You know what, I could live without a big to-do about Kaidan not coming on to ManShep in ME1. I would much rather BioWare explain how Shepard could DIE and COME BACK TO LIFE, how Shepard's BRAIN and MEMORIES could SURVIVE PAST DEATH AND SEVERE CELLULAR/NEUROLOGICAL TRAUMA. How Shepard, after defeated Cerberus at every turn in ME1, after witnessing the death of Admiral Kahoku, the atrocities on Binthu and Nepheron, and hearing the anguished testimony of Corporal Toombs—how Shepard could POSSIBLY even CONSIDER working for Cerberus so easily. 

And baby Reapers made of warm liquid goo pureé o' humans—what the eff is that shiz?

Yeah, on my list of "BioWare You Got Some 'Splainin' To Do", Bisexual Kaidan is not even in the top 10. <_<

Good point, but the story is so beyond repair that I don't even care where it goes in ME3. Who knows, maybe "germs" will kill the Reapers, a la World of the Worlds. 

Okay, so the story is so far gone at this point let's just chuck it out the window—but Kaidan's sexuality, let's fight to keep him "straight'?



Really?

Yeah, I guess I DO have different priorities...

[FireEye]

XX55XX, aren't you the guy who used to come into the Kaidan thread and demand we account for ourselves for possibly liking a character as boring as Kaidan?  And then when he gained popularity in your poll, you attempted to dismiss his gains as all coming from women?  This, after attempting to rub it in Kaidan fen's faces that he was the least popular character ever?

... what do you care if Kaidan, a character you've professed to hate, is bisexual? 

[AC5]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, funny how Shepard never actually SAYS anything to that effect. And anyway, not good enough. Shepard compromised everything he/she stood for by just hopping on the Cerberus train without even so much as sending Captain Anderson an email. Shepard has already signed on the dotted line with Cerberus before even talking to Anderson, Udina, the Council, or ANYONE ELSE who could address the Collector threat. Mind you, at this point Shepard doesn't even know for certain that the Collectors are agents of the Reapers, it's only TIM's testimony that links the Collector abductions and the Reapers. And the disappearing human colonies, while certainly a point of concern, are a symptom, not a cause, and don't really directly address the Reaper threat in any way.

Yes, I know Shepard never says or does anything to that affect but, I do believe it's a great failing of the story that it wasn't explored. I also know it's completely unknown the collector's relationship to the reapers for most of the game and, I was severely disappointed with how readily shep accepted it. Also imo finding out why Cerberus spent such an exorbitant amount of time and, money is worth investigating despite the risk.

Well I'm off topic so

While I have no interest in romances I have noticed the disparity over both games and, I would find the shift no more jarring than the people I have known who decided to come out, although there are some characters I would be more surprised by.

[shepskisaac]

XX55XX wrote...
Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game.

I'm having deja vu. You've already said it and I've already answered and hopefully clarified some of the stuff you're talking about: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/7729001/10#7770159

Modifié par IsaacShep, 01 juillet 2011 - 01:05 .

[XX55XX]

FireEye wrote...

XX55XX, aren't you the guy who used to come into the Kaidan thread and demand we account for ourselves for possibly liking a character as boring as Kaidan?  And then when he gained popularity in your poll, you attempted to dismiss his gains as all coming from women?  This, after attempting to rub it in Kaidan fen's faces that he was the least popular character ever?

... what do you care if Kaidan, a character you've professed to hate, is bisexual? 

For some reason, you are right, FireEye. Perhaps I got caught up in all of this stuff because there isn't much else to talk about on this forum. I really don't care about Kaidan. But, nonetheless, I feel as if they are using Kaidan as a pretext to make everyone bisexual. Hence, my defensiveness on the subject.

[XX55XX]

IsaacShep wrote...

XX55XX wrote...
Nonetheless, if Kaidan is indeed "bisexual," then the writing must explain why. And it must explain it well. I am not opposed to him being bisexual, but I find it jarring that he wasn't bisexual in the first game, yet suddenly becomes bisexual in the second game.

I'm having deja vu. You've already said it and I've already answered and hopefully clarified some of the stuff you're talking about: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/7729001/10#7770159

That is only an interpretation of the situation, though. Albeit a very strong one which champions the idea that Kaidan might be bisexual very well. 

I give up. Perhaps I didn't give it much notice. 

[Daydreamer_91]

Ashley? she's the stereotypical conservative christian to me don't get me wrong she's still nice

[Dapper Pomegranate]

XX55XX wrote...

Good point, but the story is so beyond repair that I don't even care where it goes in ME3. Who knows, maybe "germs" will kill the Reapers, a la World of the Worlds. 

I still say this would be the second best way to end the game, right after a T-Rex killing the Reapers, a la The Scary Door.

[Ryzaki]

I want the Reapers to explode after Shepard kisses Harbinger. Just for the lulz.

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

I want the Reapers to explode after Shepard kisses Harbinger. Just for the lulz.

Didn't you hear the news? The Reapers are gay #plotwist  Only ManSheps who hook up with another guy will find the secret how to save the Galaxy

[Eternal Dust]

Daydreamer_91 wrote...

Ashley? she's the stereotypical conservative christian to me don't get me wrong she's still nice

Ok, where do people get this notion that she's a conservative Christian from? She said she believed in a higher being and for most of the game she was spewing more poetry than Bible passages. Jeebus Christ. <_<

[jlb524]

octoberfire wrote...

Daydreamer_91 wrote...

Ashley? she's the stereotypical conservative christian to me don't get me wrong she's still nice

Ok, where do people get this notion that she's a conservative Christian from? She said she believed in a higher being and for most of the game she was spewing more poetry than Bible passages. Jeebus Christ. <_<

Yeah.

There are gay Christians out there, damn!

And Ash never striked me as 'conservative'...why didn't she have a problem with FemShep's romance with Liara then?

[Ryzaki]

Probably because Ash is capable of minding her business.

[Wereparrot]

octoberfire wrote...

Daydreamer_91 wrote...

Ashley? she's the stereotypical conservative christian to me don't get me wrong she's still nice

Ok, where do people get this notion that she's a conservative Christian from? She said she believed in a higher being and for most of the game she was spewing more poetry than Bible passages. Jeebus Christ. <_<

People will generalise. I haven't generalised: I think the subject of her faith is very much still open since nowhere does she explicitly subscribe to any particular religion, but if she does turn out to be bi then I will of course assume that she either was never a Christian or certainly not a conservative one.

[Chiramu]

Miranda is a better femShepard partner than Ashley :<, at least Miranda and femShepard would look hot kissing. Ashley is a plain jane.

Modifié par Chiramu, 01 juillet 2011 - 12:01 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

Chiramu wrote...

Miranda is a better femShepard partner than Ashley :<, at least Miranda and femShepard would look hot kissing. Ashley is a plain jane.

Don't worry, she got herself some new plastic funbags now.

[Chiramu]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

Miranda is a better femShepard partner than Ashley :<, at least Miranda and femShepard would look hot kissing. Ashley is a plain jane.

Don't worry, she got herself some new plastic funbags now.

O_o

[SirGladiator]

Ashley is definitely the easiest call of all candidates, since her relationship with Femshep is fully in the game already, so when they inevitably publish some form of 'Collectors Trilogy Edition' a year or so down the line, the only thing they have to do is change the 'flag' to activate the ME1 version of the romance, and then its all there. For Tali a fair bit of the romance is still there, they'd need to add a bit back in, I think more is missing with Jack and Miranda, though again some of each is already there. It's not like it would be hard to make any/all of them fully active for FemShep, but Ashley would be the easiest, since its already totally there, just waiting to be re-activated, and having played the Ashley-FemShep romance all the way through ME1 and ME2 I'd definitely like to complete it in ME3 (of couse I'd enjoy the other three also, no doubt. The more the merrier ) .

As for who I'd pick between Miranda and Ashley....mercy that would be tough. They're each so awesome, similar and yet each have their own unique strengths. I'd definitely have to choose each of them at least once . And in regard to Ash's religion, its true she never explicitly goes into that, which is understandable, but it is reasonable to assume she's a Christian, as a Christian myself that's how I play her, and Shepard as well. Of course if you don't want to think of her as one you don't have to, just as you don't have to think of her as into women or not into women if you don't want to, you can just play the game your own personal way and interpret things however you like. Thats part of what makes playing RPGs so much fun, after all .

[Homebound]

kaidan as a s/s makes sense. as for Ashley, i think it'd be hilarious if she turned out to be s/s. no offfence to glbt's.

[AngelicMachinery]

Hellbound555 wrote...

kaidan as a s/s makes sense. as for Ashley, i think it'd be hilarious if she turned out to be s/s. no offfence to glbt's.

May I ask why?  I don't quite get the humor involved in this statement.