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Understanding and mastering Reaper technology (long)


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#1
Ieldra

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I'd like to open a matter for debate.

From the first time when my Shepards met a Reaper, it has always been their secondary goal that humanity - or whichever faction they happened to feel allegiance to - should gain understanding and mastery of the Reapers' technology in the end.

I wish to discuss the proposition that this is (a) a desirable goal and (B) a necessary goal.

It is desirable because
(a) It will let us understand and master that which we have until now only used, namely mass portals.
(B) Increased understanding of scientific and technological principles is, as a rule, always desirable. Exceptions need justification.
© it will help protect from further threats of the same kind.

It is necessary because
(a) after the war the galaxy will be littered with Reaper debris, some faction will eventually understand and master it. It is undesirable that another faction gains that understanding and yours does not.

Since I can already hear the assertions reflexively raised against this proposition, I will deal with two common counterarguments first.

(A) "Nothing good can come of it".
This is an assertion based on the moral intuition that something that has been used for such "evil" cannot be good for something desirable. It should be obivous that there is no basis for such an assertion but wishful thinking. Even should it be true in some cases, the argument is usually made from a position of ignorance. When it comes up, you do not yet know. The plain fact is, apart from a few things we have tried, we do not know which good and bad will come from understanding and mastering it. We don't even know if indoctrination will continue to be a danger once we understand how it works. We will not know until we have tried. And then, of course, it will be too late. However, in this specific case, the argument is very obviously wrong. A great good has already come of it, since...

Reaper technology has saved your ass in ME2.
I'm talking about EDI, who has built-in parts from the wreck of Sovereign which have enabled her to interface with the Reaper IFF and the Collector base. Without EDI, the Normandy would have never made it through the Omega-4 relay, the SR2 might not even have survived the Collector attack after the Reaper IFF was installed. To the best of our knowledge, without the bits of Reaper technology incorporated into EDI, Shepard's mission in ME2 would have failed.

(B) "It is too dangerous to deal with"
This argument, too, is made from a position of ignorance. Of course new technologies are often dangerous. The first cars were deemed so dangerous that there was a time when a runner with a black flag was required to run in front of every car as a warning to others. We laugh about that today and tend to forget that cars costs thousands of lives per year. Still, we have deemed it worth it, have we not?
The scientists who discovered radioactivity died from cancer. For dangers like this the principle applies that understanding brings control: we now know when how much radioactivity the human body can absord without permanent damage, and how to protect ourselves against it to some degree. It may not be perfect, but it's certainly better than it would be had we not gained the understanding of what it is. 
Besides, this argument can be raised as an objection to everything we develop. For instance, It is not yet decided if the development of the combustion engine was something too dangerous in the long run. The plain fact is: we do not know. That has never stopped us, since we know: once an idea is realized, it is not possible to put it back into the box. The same goes with Reaper technology. Refusing to deal with it will only increase the danger, the only way to retain some modicum of control is to master it ourselves.

Indoctrination:
Someone I debated this with once said "It's only a matter of time before someone will have indoctrination guns." Indoctrination appears like a particularly fearsome weapon because it robs us of our identity. But as a weapon of subversion it has several disadvantages: it is 100% lethal. Once applied, the victim will die or end as a very obbvious husk. It may takes days or weeks, but the victim will end as a husk. Also it apparently requires a combination of nanites injected into the body or inhaled, and electromagnetic radiation or sound. Which means it is not so easily applied unless the victim stays in the vicinity of the source. I submit that the scientists of Dr.Chandana's team would have been perfectly able to protect themselves from it, had they only been as security-conscious as would befit their mission. 

In the end it all amounts to this: at the end of the war, Reaper technology will be widely available. Should it prove as powerful as it appears now, it will likely transform our societies in the long run . The only question is, will we retain some measure of control over the process by understanding and mastering the stuff, or will we refuse to acknowledge the necessity, stick our heads into the sand and be driven by it to an unknown end?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2011 - 01:47 .


#2
Whatever42

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Humanity will gobble up as much of the tech as possible, no doubt. And since so many Reapers will be destroyed at Earth, there will be a lot.

I don't think most Paragons were against capturing Reaper technology for humanity or the alliance. I believe they just viewed Cerberus as an enemy. Just like we wouldn't want the Batarians getting Reaper tech, they wouldn't want Cerberus getting Reaper tech because they feel Cerberus would use it against humanity's best interests.

#3
Dannyboy9876

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Very good.

Something explaining the after events of ME3 might have some of this.

#4
knightnblu

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Actually, I play paragon (mostly) and I took Mordin's words about technology to heart. When you accept technology that you haven't researched yourself, you close doors to other options. Paths that would have been opened to you had you not merely adopted the foreign technology. The Reapers left behind the technology that they wanted us to have because they wished us to reverse engineer it and adopt it so that we would develop in a pre-planned technological path. Why?

I can only assume that by us following that path it would be bad for us and good for the Reapers. Additionally, especially advanced tech would, in Mordin's words, be like giving nuclear weapons to cave men. A species that is unready culturally, emotionally, and technologically for such technology could easily be destroyed by it and by their own hands.

For these reasons and because of the horrors that were carried out at the Collector Base, I decided to destroy it. There is no sense in defeating the Reapers only to destroy ourselves with tech that we didn't earn.

#5
Yeti13

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^^ Legion has the best response to this, species should make their own futures not be given them

Examples: Protheon tech found on Mars, If the Protheons wanted us to to reach the citadel why not just put it on Earth? They wanted us to learn spaceflight first, to be able to reach Mars and start a colony there. We earned the right by achieving space flight ourselves.

Like Knight mentioned, the Salraians made a mistake when they raised the Krogan up before they were ready, dooming the galaxy to war.

I'm not saying we shouldn't study Reaper tech, but precautions must be taken. Any Reaper tech can cause Indoctrination over a period of time and that is how whole teams will end up dead or betraying people. Robots should be used to study the tech from distance, and it should be done by all species working together, in harmony.

#6
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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We might as well say baboons would benefit from mastering human technology. If human technology caused baboons who stayed around it for too long to go crazy haha.

#7
Ieldra

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@knightnblu
Actually, Mordin's argument is bullsh*t. It's the moralistic argument repackaged in scientific terminology. Technology transfer between cultures has existed since the beginning of civilization on Earth, and has existed between the species of the galaxy for countless generations. In fact, I bet most of the technologies ever used by anyone have not been researched within the same culture or species. It is true that has somethings had disastrous effects, for instance like giving modern medical technology to underdeveloped nations, resulting in a population explosion and ultimately war. But it is as always: once the technology is in the world, it cannot be put back into the box. Once one part of a conglomerate of civilizations has something, it is only a matter of time that it becomes available everywhere. Cultures and species must adapt. Once anyone has studied Reaper technology, others must follow. And it is unavoidable that someone will study if after the war.

Also, it doesn't matter if we develop a technology ourselves or are given it. We are shaped by it anyway and drawn along a path we have not decided we want. Just think how civilization on Earth has changed in the last century. Our cities have been reshaped to accomodate millions of cars, and that fact is bemoaned by many, but we never had the freedom to say "No we do not want cars", nor would those who bemoan the shape of our cities say they dont want cars. And if the development of the internet had been a democratic decision, I assure you we wouldn't have it today. Those who try to reject modern technology achieve nothing by doing so, they only deny themselves the admittedly small influence over the development they could have.

Inevitably, there will be those who say: who are you to determine what I should study. I'd be one of them. We'd research Reaper technology and from that point onwards events would have their own dynamic. Once an idea is in the world, once the capabilities exist to understand the stuff, someone will do it, and those who'd rather not have it must adapt to its existence. It was like that with the internet, with cars and with a number of other key technologies. There is no reason to assume it won't go the same way with Reaper technology. 

@Yeti13:
The notion that new technology must be earned is no argument, just a dogma. And anyway, who decides when we have "earned" something? We should refuse to let another species decide when we have earned something, we should decide for ourselves. Technology is not handed out by some divine authority according to merit. And actually, if it were, I would fight that authority to the death.

Also, I'm not saying we shouldn't be careful. In fact, we should be careful to the point of paranoia and keep our bodies away from the stuff as long as we don't know how to protect ourselves.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2011 - 05:15 .


#8
Ieldra

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DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
We might as well say baboons would benefit from mastering human technology. If human technology caused baboons who stayed around it for too long to go crazy haha.

Your argument presupposes that Reaper technology is intrinsically incomprehensible to the human mind. You do not know that until you have tried to understand it. You also do apparently not understand that the influence some Reaper technology has on the human mind is not a magical process. In fact, has been analyzed to some degree and it is understood as being achieved by a combination of nanites and electromagnetic radiation, disproving that Reaper technology is intrinsically incomprehensible to humans. 

Your argument fails because its based on an assumption proven wrong. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2011 - 05:08 .


#9
SandTrout

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The OP is correct, overall in her assessment, even taking into account that giving Cerberus the Collector base intact is probably a bad idea.

Leaving the Collector base to Cerberus gives a single faction of notorious reputation an exceedingly powerful weapon that does not require comprehension in order to be used, much like the Mass Relays. Destroying the CB denies that technology from everyone, Cerberus included. Granted, Cerberus still managed to salvage some tech from the CB regardless, but overall, the technological contamination was reduced.

However, after the Galactic War, we are not going to have the luxury of all of the alien technology in one spot for easy destruction. There are going to be bits and pieces scattered everywhere, preventing any attempt to control its contamination of society. Therefor, since containment is not possible, the only reasonable course of action to to attempt to understand and control. Even if you find using Reaper technology distasteful, by the end of the war, it will be used by someone, somewhere, so in order to prevent your faction from being dominated by those using Reaper tech, you will need to conduct your own research into it.

#10
Parah_Salin

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The main issue isn't with materials, weapons, programing designs, and the like, it's with the fact that a lot of it is focused on harvesting or transmuting the basic things that make organic life worth saving. My guess the bulk of their tech is the processing for harvesting civilizations and processing them, and calculated genetic modification with ruthless efficiency. Do you really want to adopt that kind of mindset of power at all cost? My guess is how the reapers became what they are.

#11
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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Ieldra2 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
We might as well say baboons would benefit from mastering human technology. If human technology caused baboons who stayed around it for too long to go crazy haha.

Your argument presupposes that Reaper technology is intrinsically incomprehensible to the human mind. You do not know that until you have tried to understand it. You also do apparently not understand that the influence some Reaper technology has on the human mind is not a magical process. In fact, has been analyzed to some degree and it is understood as being achieved by a combination of nanites and electromagnetic radiation, disproving that Reaper technology is intrinsically incomprehensible to humans. 

Your argument fails because its based on an assumption proven wrong. 


That's probably what all those Cerberus operatives were thinking right before they were indoctrinated :)

(In other words, Mass Effect as a narrative is not hard SF. It has several re-skinned fantasy elements in its narrative, including indoctrination. So if you're living in the Mass Effect universe, you should absolutely react to the reapers with superstitious fear because that's going to get you a better result considering the way the story works in Mass Effect.)

#12
Ieldra

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Let's keep the Collector base decision out of this. It will only turn into a flame war. This is more about a general assessment of the situation.

#13
SandTrout

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Let's keep the Collector base decision out of this. It will only turn into a flame war. This is more about a general assessment of the situation.

Fair enough, I was just contrasting the two situations, I did not intend to bring it as a main point of arguement.

#14
Ieldra

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DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
(In other words, Mass Effect as a narrative is not hard SF. It has several re-skinned fantasy elements in its narrative, including indoctrination. So if you're living in the Mass Effect universe, you should absolutely react to the reapers with superstitious fear because that's going to get you a better result considering the way the story works in Mass Effect.)

I'll answer that with Clarke's law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. The premise of sci-fi - any sci-fi, not just the hard kind, is that the universe is understandable in principle and that there are no supernatural elements, only super-powerful ones, and that there are no intrinsically incomprehensible things, only not yet comprehensible things. 

I agree that if you don't look too deep, there appear to be re-skinned fantasy elements in the ME universe, but it is always possible to reframe such things in terms of technology and science. In fact I suspect it is part of the premise of the whole story to make the player decide in which terms to frame the Reapers and their technology. If I am correct, then there will be an ending where Reaper technology is on the way to being understood and mastered, and another ending where galactic civilization looks on the remnants of the Reapers with superstitous fear. Excuse me if I prefer the former ending.

BTW, the mere fact that inroads have been made to understanding indoctrination proves my viewpoint.
 

#15
Skirata129

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Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, the mere fact that inroads have been made to understanding indoctrination proves my viewpoint.
 

You say science, I say VOODOO. Posted Image

#16
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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Ieldra2 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
(In other words, Mass Effect as a narrative is not hard SF. It has several re-skinned fantasy elements in its narrative, including indoctrination. So if you're living in the Mass Effect universe, you should absolutely react to the reapers with superstitious fear because that's going to get you a better result considering the way the story works in Mass Effect.)

I'll answer that with Clarke's law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. The premise of sci-fi - any sci-fi, not just the hard kind, is that the universe is understandable in principle and that there are no supernatural elements, only super-powerful ones, and that there are no intrinsically incomprehensible things, only not yet comprehensible things. 

I agree that if you don't look too deep, there appear to be re-skinned fantasy elements in the ME universe, but it is always possible to reframe such things in terms of technology and science. In fact I suspect it is part of the premise of the whole story to make the player decide in which terms to frame the Reapers and their technology. If I am correct, then there will be an ending where Reaper technology is on the way to being understood and mastered, and another ending where galactic civilization looks on the remnants of the Reapers with superstitous fear. Excuse me if I prefer the former ending.

BTW, the mere fact that inroads have been made to understanding indoctrination proves my viewpoint.
 


It's Bioware, man. They don't really think that way, especially considering the way they've portrayed the outcomes of previous attempts to understand reaper tech. And "it is always possible to reframe such things in terms of technology and science" is almost the definition of re-skinning. Like how having midichlorians doesn't make Star Wars anything but your standard fantasy story innnn spaaaaccceee. I agree that were someoene else telling the story, that might be a good idea, but thus far in the story Bioware is telling, the superstitious people have been pretty consistently right.

#17
khevan

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I'll add my support to the OP. I'm one of those who feel that using Reaper tech is closing doors to ideas that we will never think of. Give 5 groups of people the same problem, and they'll likely find multiple means of solving that problem. Now, one version of the solution may be more efficient than another, but even the differences, once explored, can lead to other advancements, etc. So, having such advanced tech as the Reapers floating around, it closes as many doors as it opens.

BUT! The simple fact is that the Reaper tech is out there, and supposing victory in the Reaper War, examples of it will be strewn about everywhere. Someone will study it, and try to master it. If that "someone" is a rogue state, like the batarians, it could be a Bad Thing™ in the long run. Since the tech is out there, and available, I agree that we must study it, even as a way to figure out how to defend ourselves from it if someone else tries to use it as a weapon against us.

I just think we shouldn't get so focused on "Reaper Tech! *nerdgasm*" that we blind ourselves to possible alternate tech that may (or may not, who knows) be better alternatives. AND we should be as careful as possible in studying reaper tech that we don't kill ourselves off in the process. *grin*

#18
Saaziel

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@ op: Don't take this the wrong way , but there is nothing to debate.

Your premise can be summarized as - We must learn things - or - Learning things is good - I'd hope that most would agree. The only points of contentions that could be made , within the Mass effect universe , revolves around "How it is done" . And that means talking about Cerberus , the Alliance , the Council and so on , the devil's in the details. Since you don't want to tackle that issue , there is nothing to discuss.

Aside from that ,there is a question of time-scale ; With the Reapers 2 years away from invasion , its incredibly doubtful that any proper experiments could be performed on Reaper tech. Heck it might just take that long to get things set up. Even then we wouldn't have tested or manufactured anything tangible by the time they would get here.

Still that is , somewhat , off topic.

Modifié par Saaziel, 25 juin 2011 - 07:19 .


#19
Yeti13

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The Protheons did decide it for us, If they wanted to give humanity space flight when we were cavemen or leave the knowledge of the charon relay on Earth they would have. The fact is they choose not to to let us develop space flight on our own. We would not reach the citadel until we were sophisticated enough to do so! If you don't like it then we would have never left the sol system. Of course its about merit, you would not hand a gun to a murderer would you? The Krogan were not ready, their culture was to violent to co-exist with the other species and the Salrians paid the price.

#20
Ieldra

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@Yeti13:
This is interesting. How did you acquire your information about the thought processes of Protheans dead for 50000 years? Telepathy and time travel? Do you have a beacon in your garden, perhaps?

You ascribe intention to something that's much more likely to be random. Much more likely the Protheans didn't leave their cache for us to find, they left it behind when they left because it was too much hassle to take along. A dump. That's what you usually find in archaeology, and I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that it's different in the ME universe. Or it was left behind when the Reapers visited Mars and harvested the Protheans there.

Compare http://masseffect.wi...:_Martian_Ruins

Anyway, that's all off-topic. What the Protheans have or have not intended has no bearing on how we should deal with Reaper technology.

Edit:
Your argument comes down to "We could not do X before we had the means to do X". Well of course not, that's tautological. But the assumption that we need to reach a certain level of cultural maturity to gain the means, that's nothing but an article of faith, and actually I suspect it is the other way round: technology drives cultural evolution. We've been living with the nuclear bomb for 67 years and we still haven't blown ourselves up with it. Who would've thought it back in the late 1940s and the 50s? And why? Because we are aware of the danger. We have mentally adapted to having weapons of mass destruction in your backyards. The need to adapt may be regrettable, but so far we've managed. I'd say that's an achievement. Now if we would only adapt to the less immediate but more pervasive dangers of this century...that I'm not so sure of. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2011 - 07:55 .


#21
Ieldra

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Saaziel wrote...
@ op: Don't take this the wrong way , but there is nothing to debate.

Your premise can be summarized as - We must learn things - or - Learning things is good - I'd hope that most would agree. The only points of contentions that could be made , within the Mass effect universe , revolves around "How it is done" . And that means talking about Cerberus , the Alliance , the Council and so on , the devil's in the details. Since you don't want to tackle that issue , there is nothing to discuss.

Do you really want to rekindle the endless debates already posted about about wether Cerberus', the Council's the Alliance's methods are acceptable, the CB decisions and so on? Besides, the how of it is exactly *not* what I wanted to talk about. If you miss something "real" to be discussed, how about this: which kind of cultural change can we expect to result from adapting Reaper technology to our use?

Aside from that ,there is a question of time-scale ; With the Reapers 2 years away from invasion , its incredibly doubtful that any proper experiments could be performed on Reaper tech. Heck it might just take that long to get things set up. Even then we wouldn't have tested or manufactured anything tangible by the time they would get here.

My focus was more on after the war. It is course desirable to understand Reaper technology as fast as possible in order to find some weakness to exploit or some weapon to use against them etc. etc.. But I presuppose that the war will be won. What happens then with all the Reaper debris? And as you can see, there are disagreements with the proposition that we should study it, though the force of the arguments brought up so far is negligible. Perhaps the disagreements aren't as widespread as I suspected. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 juin 2011 - 08:45 .


#22
Saaziel

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Do you really want to rekindle the endless debates already posted about about wether Cerberus', the Council's the Alliance's methods are acceptable, the CB decisions and so on?


No , this wasn't my intention.

I'm simply pointing out that without context , these types of questions are without merit.

Ieldra2 wrote...If you miss something "real" to be discussed, how about this: which kind of cultural change can we expect to result from adapting Reaper technology to our use?


Too vague; It becomes an exercise in speculation more than a foundation for debates.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps the disagreements aren't as widespread as I suspected.


Indeed.

Modifié par Saaziel, 25 juin 2011 - 09:06 .


#23
SandTrout

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Of course its about merit, you would not hand a gun to a murderer would you? The Krogan were not ready, their culture was to violent to co-exist with the other species and the Salrians paid the price.

Of course you don't give a gun to a murderer. Well, that is, unless you have good reason to believe that they will kill someone specific that you want dead (IE: Krogan vs. Rachni, Iraq vs. Iran, ect.).

Really, that is besides the point, though. This is more of a matter of "The criminals are going to get guns anyways, so make sure to arm yourself for protections." Granted, this argument is dangerously political for the boards, but I think it is a reasonable analog for this discussion, regardless of weather you consider the argument valid or not. Please don't get stuck up on the issue that it usually refers to.

#24
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Also it apparently requires a combination of nanites injected into the body or inhaled, and electromagnetic radiation or sound.


An assumption, perhaps reasonable, but still uncertain. What if you're wrong? Chanadana was certain that after finding no activity even on the microsopic level that the Reaper was dead. He was wrong.

The asari scientist on Virmire said it was a signal, but that it was undetectable. How can you defend against something you can't detect?

Remember also that even if one group masters this technology the majority of people will remain ignorant. A lot of people don't really know what radiowaves are or how their cars work.

Remember also that once exposed to indoctrination you don't need to stay near the source to stay affected by it. Saren wasn't around Sovereign 100% of the time but he still carried out Sovereign's will once he'd had enough exposure.

To control a society you don't need to pump indoctrination into every household, you just need to influence the right people in the right places.

#25
atheelogos

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Damn thats a long post. I will comment on this.... Just give me time lol