287 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

So, as Chris Priestly said, he'd have NO LIs if he had his way, so ALL the LIs are fan service. They're there for the people who want them. Enjoying a game should NOT depend on whether someone else wants to be Garrus' lover instead of his bro.

The only legitimate complaint I see about romances is that, up to now, all the character relationships cut off pretty quickly if you aren't romancing them. I found this really annoying in ME2 since some of the better conversations (Jacob in particular) should have been available to all Shepard play throughs since they didn't have to be romantic in nature.

Modifié par Abispa, 25 juin 2011 - 08:52 .

[Ryzaki]

mrsph wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You're consistent at least but I've found a headdesk amount of people going "RETCON!" while being avid supporters of the Talimance. It boggles the mind. 

Depends on how they handle the retcon, unless it massively breaks the storyline, I don't really care. Same with S/S romances with pre-established characters. If it doesn't totally break the story, I don't care.

I'm pretty sure they wont pull another consort on me anyway. I'm fine with casual flirting, even if the character is the same gender...just not that. No, Bioware.

Oh god the consort. My poor renegade was scarred for life. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 juin 2011 - 08:55 .

[Lucifer_Cheney]

Hathur wrote...

Ah... this again, I see.

To emphasize the pointlessness of this discussion!

[Abispa]

ME series has a done a HUGE recon by remaking Cerberus and NOT giving my survivor Shepard the option to start throwing all Cerberus personnel (like Miranda) out the airlock once Jack joined my party. Strangely, however, ME2 is still one of my favorite games.

[Ryzaki]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...So if Kaidan and Ash are made s/s romances in ME3 you're not gonna complain afterwards?

I'll be pissed the hell off, but I'll shut the hell up as well because if it's in the game, what can I say?

Ah okay. You're consistent at least. 

[sagefic]

King Zeel wrote...
you guys are just not getting it.

No matter how we explain it we get the same trite response "why do you care, it wont affect you"

That's because it affects OUR canon as well. DUH. the same logic can be used to why do you want your char bisexual it doesn't "affect" you.

I'm honestly getting fed up with this topic but it only comes up so much times because you guys refuse to understand.

I guess I *don't* get this.

How is the bisexual option any different than any other choice - say, Paragon/Renegade - in the game?

Honestly, on a deep level, it disturbs me - no, truly disturbs me - that someone would think that casually stabbing a batarian merc in the back is a totally appropriate thing to do when heading into the Archangel mission. It's cold-blooded and nasty. Same with shoving mercs out a window. And frankly, I think re-writing the geth is a big-ol' mistake and WAY too optimistic.

But even if that's how I play it and I have a hard time imagining playing things a different way, does that mean I'm going to rage-quit the game if those other options are in there and other people decide to take them? No, of course not. To do so would demonstrate that I clearly don't understand the nature of non-fixed-narrative games. The whole point is that I get to co-create one story of Shep while someone else can co-create another one.

So if you don't have a problem with some of the nastier renegade or more bone-headed paragon options, then why all the attention on s/s? Either you have to admit that there really is no difference between LI choices vs. any other choice and just let it go, or you have to explain why the s/s choices in particular are so awful and terrible.

So far, all I can see people saying is "it's not canon." But...it actually was going to be canon at one point and frankly, BW can do whatever they want with the canon. They made dead Shep come back and made Cerberus from total evil bad guys into shady, but maybe not so bad bad guys. 

It might be beause people find it 'icky,' but frankly, wouldnt' some people find sex with aliens 'icky?' No one seems to have much issue with the inter-species thing, so why the s/s thing? It doesn't radically change the canon and doesn't radically change the gameplay or anything else that's been done so far. If anything, it restores the open-ended choices that had been curtailed by leaving out s/s in the first place.

So yeah. I'll be the first to admit. I DON'T get your argument at all.

[Maugrim]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think it's fair to call anyone who doesn't want Ashley or Kaidan to be bi is homophobic.

We haven't.  Implying otherwise is a fallacy.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm sure many of them are, but it's not the only reason.

Change that to most and you're right.  Notice most, not all.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Some people just don't like something established about a character to be changed on a whim.

Good for them.  Also not what we are asking for, no one likes bad writing but people do have different opinions of what constitues it. 

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

And they genuinely believe that their sexuality was sufficiently established in the first game.

Good for them, many of us don't.  Note again not all, the pro s/s crowd is not some borg hive-mind with one opinion and people who act otherwise only disservice their own 'arguments', such as they are.  Many FFTL members think Ashley does not makes a good s/s candidate yet I am friends with them.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If Kaidan or Ashley had said specifically that they were only into one gender, then would it make sense?

Yes, but they didn't so WTH is your point?

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


If they had made Kaidan black in the third game, would anyone who didn't like that change be a racist?

What the hell did that poor strawman ever do to you?

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I've got a better example. I wasn't crazy about the retcons to Anders and Merrill in DA 2, but the changes to their character encompassed far more than their sexuality. And in Merrill's case her role was too small to even be a change. No, while that one incident with Anders hitting on my was a slightly irritating, it was easy to avoid and over and done with for the rest of the game. He didn't bother me with it again. What bothered me was his appearance, personality, voice and mannerisms rendered him largely unrecognizable as "Anders" to me. I can tell you I would have been just as annoyed with the new Anders even if he was just a female only romance option.

Poor, poor strawman. Anders was nucking  futz because he had a   DEMON OF VENGENCE merged with him

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 25 juin 2011 - 09:01 .

[KawaiiKatie]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think it's fair to call anyone who doesn't want Ashley or Kaidan to be bi is homophobic. I'm sure many of them are, but it's not the only reason. Some people just don't like something established about a character to be changed on a whim. And they genuinely believe that their sexuality was sufficiently established in the first game. If Kaidan or Ashley had said specifically that they were only into one gender, then would it make sense?

If they had made Kaidan black in the third game, would anyone who didn't like that change be a racist?

If Kaidan was made black in ME3 it would CONTRADICT the undeniable fact he was white in ME1 & ME2. Kaidan being bisexual does not contradict anything that was said about him or what he said himself.

Exactly. Changing Kaidan's race would be a direct contradiction of something that we could see. Kaidan never once explictly stated his sexuality. He never once rejected male Shepard. If he had turned down male Shepard's advances and said, "I don't swing that way," I would absolutely be on your side saying that his bisexuality would be a "retcon."

And as I've said, I don't think that everyone who opposes bisexual Ash and Kaidan are outright homophobic, but I believe that their discomfort and disapproval unltimately have roots in homophobia. It may be a drop of homophobia in an ocean of homosexual-support, but it's not nonexistant.

[AngelicMachinery]

I'm not sure if Kaidan being turned black would break lore, if one considers how advanced medical tech is. People can probably get a "Color Change" if they so desire as a cosmetic procedure.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IsaacShep wrote...

If Kaidan was made black in ME3 it would CONTRADICT the undeniable fact he was white in ME1 & ME2. Kaidan being bisexual does not contradict anything that was said about him or what he said himself.

OK, so this is the point of contention. One side believes that Kaidan's sexuality was established in the first game and the other does not. My point was that that someone who believes that the VS shouldn't be made bi might feel that way based on the belief that it would be a contradiction rather than simple homophobia. Race is obvioulsy a lot eaiser to gauge than sexual orientation, but the basic principle still applies.

My interpretation of Kaidan's sexuality is based on more than what he says, but what he does. He opens up differently to a female Shepard and flirts with her when he does not for a male Shepard or an unromanced female Shepard.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 juin 2011 - 09:05 .

[Maugrim]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I'm not sure if Kaidan being turned black would break lore, if one considers how advanced medical tech is. People can probably get a "Color Change" if they so desire as a cosmetic procedure.

Actually this is pretty much confirmed IIRC in the lore of the books.  A female body guard for a Terra Firma candidate has had her skin color changed to a deathly pale white.

[DialupToaster]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

bad posters = cancer of any good forum.

Fixed your poast, dudebra.

Also, I don't see the problem with ******/bi/whatever romances. I never had problems rejecting advances of characters, who my Shepshep wasn't interested in. Saying "No" to Tali or Jack is no different than saying "No" to Kaidan/Jacob/XXX, in my opinion.

Edited for grammer! Don't worry, no thanks needed.
I agree that it is so easy to just avoid a romance.

[Sierra Crysis]

Retcon or no, I thought the Garrus-mance was priceless, awkward as it should be and more of an experiment than a romance. I could easily see someone falling into that. The Tali-romance seemed a little more off-putting, IMHO. Honestly, I don't mind making characters Bi-So much as changing their personalities to make them romanceable/bi. Anders was a nightmare come true to this point, where he changed from an awesome, quirky, funny guy to this serious... sensual... emotional... submissive guy... Now, whether it makes sense story/lore wise or not for it to happen, it just doesn't feel right.

And yes, people can change... But when you fall in love with a character the way they are, you want to learn more about them asides that they occasionally like to live adventurously in the bedroom.

[Bocks]

I have just recently made a poll tackling this s/s issue. It's primary goal is to understand which of the two genders support s/s romance the most.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's the fangirls, mostly. But there's no way to know for sure unless I get good, hard facts.

http://social.biowar...51/polls/21572/

[SleepyInsomnia]

I am personally glad of the implementation of the s/s pairings. Mass Effect is above all, a role-playing game. People should be able to play their Shepard any way they choose to. I do not myself play a Shepard I consider to be gay, but why should somebody who wants to be unable? Simply adding the option is not going to ruin the game for people who don’t want it, but it will make the game better for those that do. And who cares if it is fanservice? Should fans not be serviced? It is a change to a relatively minor, optional part of the game. I also have a bit of faith that the Bioware writers will be able to implement the element into the homosexual characters (whomever they may be) in a way that does not make the player feel uncomfortable.

I don’t see all the worry about the existing characters. Being gay will not totally change the character. Sure they have not explicitly stated “I’m gay” or “I’m bi,” but neither have they stated anything to the contrary. I’ll take Kaidan and Ashley for example. I see them as both being conceivably bisexual (in fact, I always thought Shepard and Kaidan had a bit of a bromance ). If Bioware chooses to make these two characters bisexual, there are plenty of reasons why it would not have come up in the first game. First and foremost, they are both in the military (as well as Shepard at the time). Look at the prejudice at gays in the military today; is it unfathomable that similar prejudice may exist in the Mass Effect world as well? Not to mention that Shepard is also their commanding officer, making it even more inappropriate (even if they break the rules later on). All I’m saying is that it easily could have not come up. Even not being in the military, some people just choose not to flaunt it.

Other comments such as stating Jack must be gay because she had a threesome with another woman or that Zaeed could not possibly be gay because he is such a badass are ignorant. Experimentation doesn’t make you gay, and being gay does not make you less of a badass. People are not solely defined by their sexual orientation. Oh, and being gay does not exempt you from the classification of “normal people” any more than being straight does.

All that being said, I do hope that not *every* romantic interest is made to be bisexual. Just as not every squadmate is interested in Shepard, not every person in the galaxy goes both ways. Just as it is in real life, your options should be limited (I mean Shepard is pretty great, but come on ).

[Maugrim]

Bocks wrote...

I have just recently made a poll tackling this s/s issue. It's primary goal is to understand which of the two genders support s/s romance the most.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's the fangirls, mostly. But there's no way to know for sure unless I get good, hard facts.

http://social.biowar...51/polls/21572/

In all gay equality things men are generally much less comfortable than women, older people much less so than younger. It's not going to change just due to ME, so if really has nothing to do with "fangirls"

[AngelicMachinery]

Bocks wrote...

I have just recently made a poll tackling this s/s issue. It's primary goal is to understand which of the two genders support s/s romance the most.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's the fangirls, mostly. But there's no way to know for sure unless I get good, hard facts.

http://social.biowar...51/polls/21572/

Broken poll is broken,  if your looking to pick out the "FAN GIRLS"  I would suggest you make the pool far more specific.  As is,  your poll seems to consider bisexual/homosexual females advocating Bi options as nothing more than fan girls.  Not to mention,  some individuals support the inclusion of S/S without any intent of playing it.  So,  would these be fanboys/fangirls?  

[Welsh Inferno]

@Bocks
That poll doesn't really cover all the options though. Like my opinion is i'm not 100% okay with current characters suddenly becoming bisexual, it'll bug me up until the game is released, when its out it wont bug me at all. But I have no problem whatsoever with new characters being introduced who are gay or bi.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 25 juin 2011 - 09:08 .

[Bocks]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Bocks wrote...

I have just recently made a poll tackling this s/s issue. It's primary goal is to understand which of the two genders support s/s romance the most.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's the fangirls, mostly. But there's no way to know for sure unless I get good, hard facts.

http://social.biowar...51/polls/21572/

In all gay equality things men are generally much less comfortable than women, older people much less so than younger. It's not going to change just due to ME, so if really has nothing to do with "fangirls"

At any rate, I know what they're capable of. They are quite, er, loud.

Edit: This isn't a poll against fangirls, it's merely a poll to satisfy my curiosity. There really do not need to be any more options than there already are. It doesn't matter if you support an s/s relationship under a certain circumstance, the point in the end is that you support s/s romance.

Modifié par Bocks, 25 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Everyone arguing for character continuity I hope you didn't romance Tali or Garrus then.

Heavens no, besides the generic 'see what happens if you take a choice otherwise' path.

 

You're consistent at least but I've found a headdesk amount of people going "RETCON!" while being avid supporters of the Talimance. It boggles the mind. 

It did pretty much come out of nowhere, and certainly missed quite a few opportunities to be developed before, well, ME2.

You ask me? (I know you didn't, but pretend.) The Liara-centric comic about recovering Shepard's body should have starred Tali and Garrus. Based on ME1 alone, Tali makes for an 'action-girl' heroine more than Liara (whose 'I'm a badass, rawr' shindig also came out of nowhere), and Garrus also has the action-cop appeal. It could have served as both a lead-in into ME2 for those two, as well as provided those first non-last second hints of attraction.

They'd have been just as, if not more, qualified to be the ones investigating as 'Shepard's old crew'. Tali can justify as still being out on her Pilgrimage, not willing to return quite yet after Shepard's death. Garrus could have already tried and gone frustrated with C-SEC/Spectres, and already left for Omega. Then, by circumstance and chance, they hear about Shepard's body and cross paths again: Garrus as ArchAngel especially.

Cue comic in which Tali and ArchAngel (identity as Garrus hidden?) team up to recover Shepard's body. Faced with the prospect of losing it to the Shadow Broker, and with no one else to go to, they hand over the body to Cerberus. This also provides the basis of willingness for Tali and Garrus to work with Cerberus afterwards, in ME2.

The Shadow Broker subplot gets shifted away from Liara, and is instead a general patter of opposition. The Broker's retaliation against Garrus and Tali are their recruitment missions: Sidonis is turned/taken advantage of by the Broker, while the Broker tips off the Geth on Haestrom to the Quarian team's location. Come LotSB, you've already got a rivalry going on to justify pursuit, and rather than be Liara's revenge story, you can seize control and hand it off to a faction of your choice (Alliance/Council/Cerberus).

Liara herself would have another role, but that can be one that rests more on her prothean/archeological expertise: perhaps she, too, is helping Cerberus to help Shepard. She could be involved in various side quests, as well as responsible for finding both the Klendagon Rift gun and the Derilect Reaper itself. A support character, if her survival is still necessary, Liara's biggest role is helping maintain the scientific argument trying to argue the Reapers existence: with her discoveries (and support from those who believe in the threat), she's uncovering the evidence that's slowly forcing the scientific community to agree.


Etc. Etc.

[Raanz]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I feel that the same theory applies to those who do not want Ash or Kaidan to return as bisexual. I have no seen a single argument against Kaidan/Ash bisexuality that did not have roots in homophobia. If it would make you uncomfortable to have your old companions return and reveal an apparent "change" in sexuality, I suggest that you think very hard about why it makes you uncomfortable.

Just wow.  How incredibly pompous of you, oh enlightened and culturally forward thinking one.
Posts like these make me laugh.

Folks have posted in this thread as well as the myriad of other threads that repeat the same thing, that the issue is not about s/s relationships...get over yourselves already.  Some folks...nay, a lot of folks don't like the idea because in their minds, it contradicts what character building has already been done.  If you or anyone else wants to justify a re-direction of a character in a story that is over 3 years old now by saying: "if they didn't say they weren't bi, then that surely means they can be" then fine, I am sure you will and everything will be ok in your world.  Guess what: everything will be fine in mine as well, because whether or not they give the fans the option to romance Kaidan, Ashley, Joker, Chakwas, Abby, Anderson in a hetero or homosexual relationship, the sun will come up the next day, I'll have a mortgage to pay, and my Shepard will be humping Williams all the way across London Bridge.

Homophobe is just another label in a society filled with unnecessary labels.  My reason for not siding with pre-existing characters being written to accommodate a group of fans has nothing to do with sexuallity.
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"  (quoting a famous dude)  

Modifié par Raanz, 25 juin 2011 - 09:14 .

[Abispa]

Bocks wrote...

I have just recently made a poll tackling this s/s issue. It's primary goal is to understand which of the two genders support s/s romance the most.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's the fangirls, mostly. But there's no way to know for sure unless I get good, hard facts.

http://social.biowar...51/polls/21572/

Let's suppose you're right, that the fans who want s/s romance are female. Why is that an issue?

[shepskisaac]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
OK, so this is the point of contention. One side believes that Kaidan's sexuality was established in the first game and the other does not. My point was that that someone who believes that the VS shouldn't be made bi might feel that way based on the belief that it would be a contradiction rather than simple homophobia. Race is obvioulsy a lot eaiser to gauge than sexual orientation, but the basic principle still applies.

My interpretation of Kaidan's sexuality is based on more than what he says, but what he does. He opens up differently to a female Shepard and flirts with her when he does not for a male Shepard or an unromanced female Shepard.

And I believe Jack is a raging serial killer sociopath based on what I see. What I believe is NOT canon. If it contradicts what someone assumed, then it's really not anyone's fault but the person who wrongly assumed something.

As for Kaidan not flirting with ManShep, why would he? He thinks Shep is straight thus he knows he has no chance by default with him. He makes it clear to FemShep as well that he wouldn't bother flirting had he knew she preffered other women.