337 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...
If I were to make a thread on any of these topics, I would have missed the point of science fiction.

The MEverse consists of some technobabble and also some attempts to futuristic  science. The first ones are of course not explained, almost at all, while the fututristic science is of course partially not explained.

The exact same thing applies to the Lazarus Project, technobabble, or not.

Typical science fiction also acknowledges that something has to be done to overcome obstacles.

In the ME universe, travel between solar systems still takes months or years even with FTL drives.  Thus the mass relay network is needed.  Biotics don't just magically know how to do what they do.  They need implants and training.  So why not have an acknowledgement that "yes, the brian was tricky, so we used a Macguffin to put it together"?  As has been pointed out many times before, the ME universe is not "hard' science fiction.  A simple nod to acknowledge the problem is all that's being asked for here.  Not for Shep the body, Shep the mind.

I still don't see that even if life was more significant than the very universe and it's form itself, how Lazarus Project can be special. Lazarus Project is yet another plot device, like all of the rest of the technolodgy in ME1 and 2, technobabble or not.

Because almost all the technobabble in the ME universe can trace its origins back to eezo and mass effect fields.  The Lazarus Project does not, as far as we can tell.  And yet it's the biggest medical miracle ever.  It brought the protagonist back to life to fight the Reapers.  And it stands outside of known space magic.

Yes medical science in the future appears to be well advanced in some areas.  Genetic engineering is way beyond what we can do today.  Life expectancy is almost double what it is today.  Normally fatal injuries are now survivable.  But nothing has indicated that resurrecting the dead was possible.  Treating fatal injuries is plausible.  Raising the dead adds another layer that requires another explanation.

Eezo explains as much, if not less than the cybernetics and cellular regeneration and restoration.

In the beginning you have eezo and electric current, and in the end you have space time folding.

What happens in the meantime, is not even mentioned.

We are not talking about how scientifically correct the explanation is, we are talking about the lack of explanation.

The feeling I'm getting here is:

The Lazarus Project needs no special answer because nothing can explain it fully.

I say I don't need a full explanation.  I don't need "in the meantime" because I know it's rubbish.  All I need is a space magic-y answer, much like how FTL or biotics work, and give an example of what I mean.

You say that won't work because it's nonsense, just like eezo or asari reproduction .

So having a lame space magic answer is worse than having no answer?

And somehow, yet, you are the one to bring hard science into the argument, while you were asking for a magic eezo-constructed space rock a few sentences earlier. As I said, why the change?

Mass relays get around the hard science of vast interstellar distances.  I see no problem with asking for an equivalent answer to the Lazarus Project.

Err, nobody said that Shepard wasn't brain dead. That's the point.
You just acting as if the brain is utterly destroyed, leaving no trace of it's existance.

Actually what I'm saying is even a comparatively small change could lead to a very different Shepard.  The brain wouldn't have to be destroyed, just sections of it damaged to cause all sorts of complications.  And not just from trauma, but oxygen starvation, or toxin buildup which can lead to brain damage within five minutes.

Unless the SB agents were on Alchera with a huge catcher's mitt waiting for Shepard while the Collectors were still tearing apart the Normandy, that is a pretty much inevitable result.

Surgery on cells? Really? That wouldn't take two years, that would take...let's just say that there are 50 trillion cells in our bodies. 

This is the reason that you can't just throw as many magic rocks as you can, anywhere. This is why sometimes you have to stop in the surface of an explanation.

And why that is? Because every single player and their dog (no, not their cat, sorry) can create an image in their minds of a device doing surgery on cells and understand why it wouldn't work at all.

Is it any more or less nonsensical than anything else in the game?  The relays?  Biotics?   Element Zero?  The asari?  They all have space magic-y answers to fit them into the game's lore, and comparatively few complaints.  But the Lazarus Project is, how did you put it?  "Special"?  It needs nothing but a few cutscenes and Wilson complaining about not being appreciated?

I don't care for an explanation for omni-gel and how it works because I know that I can't possibly get one.
You claim that it would require extreme precision. Try thinking how omni-gel would have to work.

Or is, once again, the Lazarus Project "special". More special than any other element of the sci-fi universe, I guess. It seems to be the only one to which the community demanded an explanation and for that to be true to contemporary science.

Funny how that bolded part worked out, huh?

And here's why I think so:

Biotics are not real
Omnigel is not real
The asari are not real (sorry folks, but it's true.  Neither are quarians or turians)
Faster than light travel is not real (yet)
Mass effect fields are not real.
Sentient spaceship space Cthulhu are not real at least I hope not.

Death is real.  We know this for fact.  People die, and they don't come back.  Certainly not after two years.  This is something pretty much everyone understands and accepts.  So when you do something to make it possible in a science fiction world.  People ask how this can be done.  I am not talking about NPCs in the game here.  I'm talking about the players.  Death is real.  Death is final.  But the Lazarus Project makes it not so real and not so final.

Modifié par iakus, 02 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .

[Iakus]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

As demented as iakus idea is on the revive shep to kill him if he's a flaw is so up my horror ally! If Cerberus did this they'd show just how sick they are and it would be undeniable at this point. Shep should also react to this either be like he could see why or be appalled. The cruelty of this act would boggle the mind but it would also keep the saying true were Jacob said Shep was the only subject used.

If BW went this route I hope they would have recordings of a few of the fail sheps like what happened and how they put them down.

What can I say?   I have a demented mind:devil:

There is so much we don't know about eh Lazarus Project that pretty much anything's possible..

[Sable Phoenix]

Phaedon wrote...

Eezo explains as much, if not less than the cybernetics and cellular regeneration and restoration.

Flat wrong.

Cybernetics?  We've got those today (yes we do, artificial bones and pacemakers are commonplace, powered limbs are available, and more complicated things like the artifical eye are only a decade away at most).  Cellular regeneration?  We've got that today (yes we do, we've regenerated mammalian animal limbs via electric current and are working on humans, and that doesn't even touch the stem cell research going on).  Nanotechnology?  We've got that today (yes we do, how do you think we make computer chips, and the medical uses are understood even if they will take time to come within our reach).  We can even restart a dead body and maintain its life processes (yes we can, what do you think a defibrilator and a respirator are for), provided it hasn't been dead for too long.

And none of those can resurrect a braindead person.

Every experience in all of human history tells us that once the brain stops, the person inside that brain is gone, permanently.  You can keep the body processes active, you can keep the lights on and the air conditioner running, but nobody's home.  The personality, memories, skills, training, all the subconscious programming, everything that occurs in the brain is not based on the physical structure of the brain, it's based on the energy patterns that run through that structure.  There is no switch we can flip that will suddenly turn the brain back on; when those energy patterns are gone, the person is gone, even if the physical structure is still there.  And nothing (at least nothing that isn't supernatural, if you believe in the supernatural) has ever brought anyone back.

That's the crux of the Lazarus Project.  Somehow, the Lazarus Project found a way to restore all those energy patterns, all at once, from the sympathetic nervous system to the subconscious to the personality to the conscious thought patterns.  They created a mythical "brain switch" and flipped it on.  This violates all known physical laws and is completely beyond the results of any concievable medical technology that would use the things the Lazarus Project uses... not cybernetics, not cellular regeneration, not even "bio-synthetic fusion" (which is just technobabble for cybernetics anyway).

The Mass Effect universe already has its Minovsky Particle, Element Zero.  Element Zero explains everything it needs to explain, just by its existence.  The writers tell us that in the Mass Effect universe, Eezo exists and can create certain quantum-mechanical effects outside the laws of Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.  It's the Mass Effect universe's Applied Phlebotinum, which lets processes occur that violate known physical laws.

FTL travel is a process which Eezo makes possible.

Gravity manipulation is process which Eezo makes possible.

Telekinetics (Biotics) are a process which Eezo makes possible.

Eezo does not need to be explained beyond the details we are given (i.e., created by exploding stars, responds to electrical current); it is, in and of itself, an explanation.  As long as the writers do not violate the rules they previously laid down for it, we as the readers (or players) will willingly suspend our disbelief and accept it.  Suddenly giving Eezo the ability to time travel or boil an egg at twenty paces would be bad writing, because it would violate the previously established laws of the universe and ruin our suspension of disbelief.

Where's the Element Zero that allows the Lazarus Project to work?  It isn't there.  The Lazarus Project is not the Minovsky Particle, the Applied Phlebotinum, the "magic rock".  The Lazarus Project is a process, one which... nothing makes possible.  That process requires a magic rock to work the way we are told it works, because it violates all known tolerances and physical laws of the human body.  If we don't see that magic rock (and we don't), the process violates our suspension of disbelief, just like time-traveling, egg-boiling Eezo would.  And that means it's bad writing.

If you don't get it after this explanation and iakus', it's only because you don't want to.

This is the reason that you can't just throw as many magic rocks as you can, anywhere. This is why sometimes you have to stop in the surface of an explanation.

The Lazarus Project gets no explanation at all, surface or otherwise.  We're just told that it happened, and the writers demand we accept it for no other reason than "because I say so".  Obviously that's good enough for some people.  For those who understand story structure and critical thinking, however, it is not.  It's just bad writing.  We don't need a ton of magic rocks.  We just need one, and we don't even get that.

And why that is? Because every single player and their dog (no, not their cat, sorry) can create an image in their minds of a device doing surgery on cells and understand why it wouldn't work at all.

Just like every single player and their dog and their cat can create an image in their minds of a device turning on the mythical brain switch and understand why it wouldn't work at all.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:40 .

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
Typical science fiction also acknowledges that something has to be done to overcome obstacles.

In the ME universe, travel between solar systems still takes months or years even with FTL drives.  Thus the mass relay network is needed.  Biotics don't just magically know how to do what they do.  They need implants and training.  So why not have an acknowledgement that "yes, the brian was tricky, so we used a Macguffin to put it together"?  As has been pointed out many times before, the ME universe is not "hard' science fiction.  A simple nod to acknowledge the problem is all that's being asked for here.  Not for Shep the body, Shep the mind.

Even if that was slightly relevant to LP not making sense, 

I assume that billions of credits and at least 2 years of research are too mainstream an obstacle.

Because almost all the technobabble in the ME universe can trace its origins back to eezo and mass effect fields.

Wrong.

Omni-gel, Medi-gel, Alien Evolution, Asari Reproduction, FTL communication are the first ones to come to mind.

And then the ME fields are somehow not special. Cool.

The Lazarus Project does not, as far as we can tell.  And yet it's the biggest medical miracle ever.  It brought the protagonist back to life to fight the Reapers.  And it stands outside of known space magic.

Well, it may have something to do with it being a breakthrough and not discovered technolodgy.

Because cybernetics and nanotechnolodgy in medicine is not discov- whoops.

Yes medical science in the future appears to be well advanced in some areas.  Genetic engineering is way beyond what we can do today.  Life expectancy is almost double what it is today.  Normally fatal injuries are now survivable.  But nothing has indicated that resurrecting the dead was possible.  Treating fatal injuries is plausible.  Raising the dead adds another layer that requires another explanation.

One that you, already have.

You see cellular regeneration, the use of cybernetics, and a zoom to the brain, where a neuron is "fixed". 

The feeling I'm getting here is:

The Lazarus Project needs no special answer because nothing can explain it fully.

I say I don't need a full explanation.  I don't need "in the meantime" because I know it's rubbish.  All I need is a space magic-y answer, much like how FTL or biotics work, and give an example of what I mean.

Really? That's exactly what I am saying.

In the beginning you have cybernetics and regeneration, and then you have a functional being. You even have a video showing the process.

You say that won't work because it's nonsense, just like eezo or asari reproduction .

So having a lame space magic answer is worse than having no answer?

Both eezo and asari reproduction don't have "in the meantime"s. Asari reproduction barely has a beginning either, since it doesn't explain how information is transferred from one mind to another.

Mass relays get around the hard science of vast interstellar distances.  I see no problem with asking for an equivalent answer to the Lazarus Project.

You wanted to get around the hard science, and yet you bring hard science to the table.

Actually what I'm saying is even a comparatively small change could lead to a very different Shepard.  The brain wouldn't have to be destroyed, just sections of it damaged to cause all sorts of complications.  And not just from trauma, but oxygen starvation, or toxin buildup which can lead to brain damage within five minutes.

And it wouldn't be functional, not that the memory would simply disappear. Especially since there is no circulation, since the brain is dead, and therefore these complications shouldn't have any effect on a particular part of the brain.

Is it any more or less nonsensical than anything else in the game?  The relays?  Biotics?   Element Zero?  The asari?  They all have space magic-y answers to fit them into the game's lore, and comparatively few complaints.  But the Lazarus Project is, how did you put it?  "Special"?  It needs nothing but a few cutscenes and Wilson complaining about not being appreciated?

Really? The Lazarus Project has it's cutscenes, biotics do, relays as well. Everyone can create a picture of them in their mind and not go "Wait, how does that work."

Unlike a machine that conducts surgery cell by cell.

Funny how that bolded part worked out, huh?

And here's why I think so:

Biotics are not real
Omnigel is not real
The asari are not real (sorry folks, but it's true.  Neither are quarians or turians)
Faster than light travel is not real (yet)
Mass effect fields are not real.
Sentient spaceship space Cthulhu are not real at least I hope not.

Death is real.  We know this for fact.  People die, and they don't come back.  Certainly not after two years.  This is something pretty much everyone understands and accepts.  So when you do something to make it possible in a science fiction world.  People ask how this can be done.  I am not talking about NPCs in the game here.  I'm talking about the players.  Death is real.  Death is final.  But the Lazarus Project makes it not so real and not so final.

Unless you are asking for an explanation from BioWare as to how death works, then that is completely off the point.

Mass is real.
Chemical compounds are real.
Evolution is real.
Spacetime is real.
Again, spacetime is real.
Cthulhu is real.

See? Try not to connect relevant topics and assume that they are the same.

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Flat wrong.

Cybernetics?  We've got those today (yes we do, artificial bones and pacemakers are commonplace, powered limbs are available, and more complicated things like the artifical eye are only a decade away at most).  Cellular regeneration?  We've got that today (yes we do, we've regenerated mammalian animal limbs via electric current and are working on humans, and that doesn't even touch the stem cell research going on).  Nanotechnology?  We've got that today (yes we do, how do you think we make computer chips, and the medical uses are understood even if they will take time to come within our reach).  We can even restart a dead body and maintain its life processes (yes we can, what do you think a defibrilator and a respirator are for), provided it hasn't been dead for too long.

And none of those can resurrect a braindead person.

You couldn't miss my point even worse, even if you were playing a biotic class in ME1 and struggled to hit a target using a Sniper rifle.

Both eezo and LP are based on some "hard science" for the beginning. And then suddenly, we go to "mass reduction" and "resurrection." They don't have "in the meantime"s

Cybernetics and cellular regeneration are real.

Neutrons and electricity are real.

Every experience in all of human history tells us that once the brain stops, the person inside that brain is gone, permanently.  You can keep the body processes active, you can keep the lights on and the air conditioner running, but nobody's home.  The personality, memories, skills, training, all the subconscious programming, everything that occurs in the brain is not based on the physical structure of the brain, it's based on the energy patterns that run through that structure.  There is no switch we can flip that will suddenly turn the brain back on; when those energy patterns are gone, the person is gone, even if the physical structure is still there.  And nothing (at least nothing that isn't supernatural, if you believe in the supernatural) has ever brought anyone back.

Even if you weren't forgetting that ME is not based on hard science, you would forget that energy and how it circulates may as well be discovered in the future to leave some kind of trace.

That's the crux of the Lazarus Project.  Somehow, the Lazarus Project found a way to restore all those energy patterns, all at once, from the sympathetic nervous system to the subconscious to the personality to the conscious thought patterns.  They created a mythical "brain switch" and flipped it on.  This violates all known physical laws and is completely beyond the results of any concievable medical technology that would use the things the Lazarus Project uses... not cybernetics, not cellular regeneration, not even "bio-synthetic fusion" (which is just technobabble for cybernetics anyway).

What?

The Mass Effect universe already has its Minovsky Particle, Element Zero.  Element Zero explains everything it needs to explain, just by its existence.  The writers tell us that in the Mass Effect universe, Eezo exists and can create certain quantum-mechanical effects outside the laws of Newtonian and Einsteinian physics.  It's the Mass Effect universe's Applied Phlebotinum, which lets processes occur that violate known physical laws.

FTL travel is a process which Eezo makes possible.

Gravity manipulation is process which Eezo makes possible.

Telekinetics (Biotics) are a process which Eezo makes possible.

Eezo does not need to be explained beyond the details we are given (i.e., created by exploding stars, responds to electrical current); it is, in and of itself, an explanation.  As long as the writers do not violate the rules they previously laid down for it, we as the readers (or players) will willingly suspend our disbelief and accept it.  Suddenly giving Eezo the ability to time travel or boil an egg at twenty paces would be bad writing, because it would violate the previously established laws of the universe and ruin our suspension of disbelief.

Where's the Element Zero that allows the Lazarus Project to work?  It isn't there.  The Lazarus Project is not the Minovsky Particle, the Applied Phlebotinum, the "magic rock".  The Lazarus Project is a process, one which... nothing makes possible.  That process requires a magic rock to work the way we are told it works, because it violates all known tolerances and physical laws of the human body.  If we don't see that magic rock (and we don't), the process violates our suspension of disbelief, just like time-traveling, egg-boiling Eezo would.  And that means it's bad writing.

Sure, eezo is the only magic rock in the univ- Oh wait, you are wrong.

Omni-gel, Medi-gel, Alien Evolution, Asari Reproduction, FTL communication.

If you don't get it after this explanation and iakus', it's only because you don't want to.

Or maybe you shouldn't shut your ears to any other opinions and yell at everyone who doesn't agree with you that they are ignorant yokels.

The Lazarus Project gets no explanation at all, surface or otherwise.  We're just told that it happened, and the writers demand we accept it for no other reason than "because I say so".  Obviously that's good enough for some people.  For those who understand story structure and critical thinking, however, it is not.  It's just bad writing.  We don't need a ton of magic rocks.  We just need one, and we don't even get that.

What.


Cybernetics+Regeneration+X----> Resurrection
Neutrons+Electric Current+X-----> Mass alteration

\\Just like every single player and their dog and their cat can create an image in their minds of a device turning on the mythical brain switch and understand why it wouldn't work at all.

Only if you keep saying that to yourself.

Resurrection has been in most sci-fi universes in some form or another and nobody cried about it not being hard science or imagined a device that just turned the brain on.

Unless everyone starts screaming "Omg show ruined" every time they show resurrection in the movies or TV, I am going to assume that you are wrong.

EDIT:
And yet the only argument that I see is "But Lazarus Project is special/not special enough and requires additional explanation".

Great.

Modifié par Phaedon, 03 juillet 2011 - 09:20 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

What the video showed for the project would be enough work to get shep to a vegetable state ie the body is working but there is no explanation of the ultimate switch on to get shep's soul back into his body and become shep the person rather then just shep the body.

As one poster already suggested a theory on TIM used the husk beacon he was exposed to to turn that final switch on to make shep alive and aware which if it was the case the files should state it, if they used something else it should state that too. I can't help but think that TIM needs shep to believe he's shep for some reason I think if shep found out he was say infused with husk tech he would start turning into one sense his body no longer will fight it if the knowledge of it is there.

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...

Even if that was slightly relevant to LP not making sense, 

I assume that billions of credits and at least 2 years of research are too mainstream an obstacle.

If the instructions for resurrecting Shepard concluded with " after the cybernetics are implanted, bury Shepard in a pile of cash and let marinate for two years" it would be good enough.  Somehow I doubt that's the case.  Otherwise, I'd like to see the equipment that the time and money produced, even if I don't understand it and it makes no sense based on reality as we understand it.  Like, you know relays and amps.

Wrong.
Omni-gel, Medi-gel, Alien Evolution, Asari Reproduction, FTL communication are the first ones to come to mind.

And then the ME fields are somehow not special. Cool.

I did say "most" right?

The asari and aliens in general (well, except the geth and maybe the Reapers) do not fall under the term "technology"

And FTL communications (except for the quantum entanglement devices the Illusive Man uses) are done via comm buoys operating through the mass relays

Well, it may have something to do with it being a breakthrough and not discovered technolodgy.

Because cybernetics and nanotechnolodgy in medicine is not discov- whoops.

So let's see the technology!  We can see relays, can't we?  From what we'd seen of medical technology and cybernetics pre-LP, Macgyver himself couldn't have put Shepard back together with that.

You see cellular regeneration, the use of cybernetics, and a zoom to the brain, where a neuron is "fixed".

So?  I saw the effects, not the cause.  What caused the reversal?

Both eezo and asari reproduction don't have "in the meantime"s. Asari reproduction barely has a beginning either, since it doesn't explain how information is transferred from one mind to another.

So would you have liked the series better if we never saw a mass relay or heard one referred to except a general term like "The Network"?  No galaxy map, just a load screen.  No Mu Relay, no Omega IV Relay, no Conduit.  Because there's no way their function can be fully explained with science, so why bother showing a device that can instantaneously allow travel to other worlds?  We just accept that inter-system travel is possible?

You wanted to get around the hard science, and yet you bring hard science to the table.

What I want is a balance. No, hard science won't answer everything, and and can't. On the other hand, handwaving it away with vague "cybernetics, regeneration, and a whole lotta cash" is too little. What I want is something that stands between the two. A fantastic discovery, a piece of new or rediscovered technology, an experimental technique or piece or reaper tech. Something that justifies an enormous leap forward in medical science. Something that, by all we've seen in the ME universe, should not exist.

And it wouldn't be functional, not that the memory would simply disappear. Especially since there is no circulation, since the brain is dead, and therefore these complications shouldn't have any effect on a particular part of the brain.

So, what , as long as one brain cell remained intact, Shepard could be restored in his/her entirety once the rest of the brain was regrown?

IReally? The Lazarus Project has it's cutscenes, biotics do, relays as well. Everyone can create a picture of them in their mind and not go "Wait, how does that work."
Unlike a machine that conducts surgery cell by cell.

Point to me one conversation in the game where Shepard asks about the Lazarus Project and gets a straight answer beyond "it was really expensive" One codex entry.  one file.  All I recall hearing is vague terms like "biosynthetic fusion" and 'greatest medical achievement in humanity's history"

If I'm told a machine conducts surgery cell by cell, I'll accept that the machine is conducting surgery cell by cell.  I see a relay, I know what it's doing, because people on the screen talk about it and I can look it up in the codex.  If I see a biotic in action, I know what I'm seeing, because I talked to Kaidan and Jack and know a bit about what a biotic is capable of (oh, yeah, there's also codex entries about biotics too) 

Bringing back a brain that's been dead for two years ...well...uh...it was really expensive.  And they did this thing with a neuron, and...It's technical, you wouldn't understand.

Unless you are asking for an explanation from BioWare as to how death works, then that is completely off the point.

Mass is real.
Chemical compounds are real.
Evolution is real.
Spacetime is real.
Again, spacetime is real.
Cthulhu is real.

See? Try not to connect relevant topics and assume that they are the same.

All of the above are things most people are not going to interact with save on a casual level (here's hoping no one interacts with Cthulhu at all, but that's another thing).  Death is very personal.  The whole point of killing Shepard off seemed to be for the shock value, to get an emotional response.  And death is emotional for people.  So to bring Shepard back to life, with only vague assurances of how "difficult" it was, demands a more in-depth explanation.  That's what I mean by "death is real"  Everything else, science fiction-y space magic.  But dead is dead.  But somehow it got reversed in ME2.  

[Iakus]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

What the video showed for the project would be enough work to get shep to a vegetable state ie the body is working but there is no explanation of the ultimate switch on to get shep's soul back into his body and become shep the person rather then just shep the body.

As one poster already suggested a theory on TIM used the husk beacon he was exposed to to turn that final switch on to make shep alive and aware which if it was the case the files should state it, if they used something else it should state that too. I can't help but think that TIM needs shep to believe he's shep for some reason I think if shep found out he was say infused with husk tech he would start turning into one sense his body no longer will fight it if the knowledge of it is there.

Heh, Shep's an advanced Reaper husk with free will and fake memories.  The "real" Shepard's been on deep space assignment for the last two years.  Anderson, the Council, the VS, all know this Shepard is fake, thus why they're so odd around him/her. 

[Sable Phoenix]

Phaedon wrote...

The Lazarus Project gets no explanation at all, surface or otherwise.  We're just told that it happened, and the writers demand we accept it for no other reason than "because I say so".  Obviously that's good enough for some people.  For those who understand story structure and critical thinking, however, it is not.  It's just bad writing.  We don't need a ton of magic rocks.  We just need one, and we don't even get that.

What.


Cybernetics+Regeneration+X----> Resurrection
Neutrons+Electric Current+X-----> Mass alteration

Solve for X.

In the second equation, X=Element Zero.

What is X in the first equation?

There is no value for X, and that's what we need to make it acceptable.

I can't believe you can write that and still not get it.  By this point, I almost can't tell if you're being serious or facetious when you say something like "Cthulhu is real".

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:35 .

[Sable Phoenix]

iakus wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

What the video showed for the project would be enough work to get shep to a vegetable state ie the body is working but there is no explanation of the ultimate switch on to get shep's soul back into his body and become shep the person rather then just shep the body.

As one poster already suggested a theory on TIM used the husk beacon he was exposed to to turn that final switch on to make shep alive and aware which if it was the case the files should state it, if they used something else it should state that too. I can't help but think that TIM needs shep to believe he's shep for some reason I think if shep found out he was say infused with husk tech he would start turning into one sense his body no longer will fight it if the knowledge of it is there.

Heh, Shep's an advanced Reaper husk with free will and fake memories.  The "real" Shepard's been on deep space assignment for the last two years.  Anderson, the Council, the VS, all know this Shepard is fake, thus why they're so odd around him/her. 

I would find that to be more acceptable than what we actually got.

[Greysturm]

I agree with Phaedon you are asking for an explanation that goes farther than any other explanation they have given in the game. I could mention a whole range of other issues that arent explained and no one complain about those even if they are bigger plotholes than the lazarus project for example indoctrination, husks, base in the galactic center, assuming direct control, lack of fully enclosed spacesuit for several allies, Cyber shepard (overlord), Uberbiotic spectre (LSB), Object Rho (Arrival) , Not biotic shepard (me1) to biotic shepard (me2) and viceversa, weapon training by picking it up at an alien spaceship etc.

The only possible answer to your question is a medical breakthrough that they cant explain in any satisfactory manner hence why its refered only as a medical breakthrough, The only answer you will get is:

Dead shepard+Money+Regeneration+Cybernetics+Cerberus+Biosynthetic fusion
+Cutting edge procedures+videogame= Shepard 2.0 same as the old shepard but better.

Modifié par Greysturm, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:54 .

[Iakus]

Greysturm wrote...

I agree with Phaedon you are asking for an explanation that goes farther than any other explanation they have given in the game. I could mention a whole range of other issues that arent explained and no one complain about those even if they are bigger plotholes than the lazarus project for example indoctrination, husks, base in the galactic center, assuming direct control, lack of fully enclosed spacesuit for several allies, Cyber shepard (overlord), Uberbiotic spectre (LSB), Object Rho (Arrival) , Not biotic shepard (me1) to biotic shepard (me2) and viceversa, weapon training by picking it up at an alien spaceship etc.

The only possible answer to your question is a medical breakthrough that they cant explain in any satisfactory manner hence why its refered only as a medical breakthrough, The only answer you will get is:

Dead shepard+Money+Regeneration+Cybernetics+Cerberus+Biosynthetic fusion
+Cutting edge procedures+videogame= Shepard 2.0 same as the old shepard but better.

many of the things you listed there are Reaper tech, not fully understood by anyone in the game:  indoctrination, husks Collector Base, "assuming direct control", Object Rho.  Yeah, the nonsealed suits bug me too, but this isn't the thread to go into detail about it.  I'd also lump cyberShepard and biotic/nonbiotic Shepard in with the Lazarus Project.  Weapon training was a simple (and silly) gameplay mechanic.

But let me put it this way:  If I were to ask "what is a mass relay?"  You could pretty accurately describe it and what it does, and a vague space magicy way to describe how it does it.  If I were to ask "what's a biotic?" You could do the same.  Same thing with a kinetic barrier, an omnitool, a heavy weapon, or body armor.  But if I ask you "What is the Lazarus Project?"  What can you tell me about it?  Can you give me a vague, space magicy description of how Shepard was restored "exactly" as before?  Or are you limited to handwaving "cybernetics", which is itself an inference based on Shepard's upgrades and the "biosynthetic fusion" line.

[Lady Olivia]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Every experience in all of human history tells us that once the brain stops, the person inside that brain is gone, permanently...  And nothing (at least nothing that isn't supernatural, if you believe in the supernatural) has ever brought anyone back.

This is where you touch on the real issue.

First, it's a weak argument in the sense of the ongoing debate. What do you suppose people in, say, the seventeenth century, though about landing on the Moon? It was probably, "every experience in human history tells us that we can't fly, so it's impossible to fly to the Moon." (Not to mention that this is also a good example of a technological breakthrough that had extreme cultural ramifications, and yet even after 50 years, it's still not something that anyone can do any day. It's possible and wonderful, but it may be another century or more before it can be "mass produced.")

Second, medical sciences aren't nearly as exact as fundamental sciences. It's only easier to accept FTL travel because it's a trope that's been around for many, many years and it's present in almost every form of sci-fi. To a physicist (cough, cough), FTL is a lot more difficult to get over in terms of suspension of disbelief, than resurrection. Why? Because we know exactly why FTL is impossible while we have no idea why resurrection is impossible.

So can't we at least agree that there are double standards here to what comprises a good explanation of magic?

But the problem I believe, isn't in missing an ingame explanation. People are offended by LP because it's testing, teasing, the core beliefs held by most of us. The complaints against LP brought up in this thread are not entirely rational - they are rather emotional, and related to beliefs and values, not to impassive knowledge or inconsistencies within the lore. 

That's why I also don't think that adding more codex entries with vague nods relating LP with this or that would do much to help alleviate these qualms.

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The Lazarus Project gets no explanation at all, surface or otherwise.  We're just told that it happened, and the writers demand we accept it for no other reason than "because I say so".  Obviously that's good enough for some people.  For those who understand story structure and critical thinking, however, it is not.  It's just bad writing.  We don't need a ton of magic rocks.  We just need one, and we don't even get that.

What.


Cybernetics+Regeneration+X----> Resurrection
Neutrons+Electric Current+X-----> Mass alteration

Solve for X.

In the second equation, X=Element Zero.

What is X in the first equation?

There is no value for X, and that's what we need to make it acceptable.

I can't believe you can write that and still not get it.  By this point, I almost can't tell if you're being serious or facetious when you say something like "Cthulhu is real".

Newsflash = Element of zero atomic mass = Neutrons.

[Persona RED]

I'd like to know why when they were reconstructing you, they didn't remove those tiny shards of metal they were pulling out of you when you were all fleshy and somewhat together. If you did indeed arrive to the project a pile of crispy tubes, why wouldn't they remove the parts of metal in the first place?

Modifié par Persona RED, 04 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]iakus wrote...
If the instructions for resurrecting Shepard concluded with " after the cybernetics are implanted, bury Shepard in a pile of cash and let marinate for two years" it would be good enough.  Somehow I doubt that's the case.  Otherwise, I'd like to see the equipment that the time and money produced, even if I don't understand it and it makes no sense based on reality as we understand it.  Like, you know relays and amps.[/quote]
There you go:

They show enough futuristic machinery for my tastes.

A cutscene with a mass relay that lasts for a few seconds is better, somehow.


[quote]I did say "most" right?[/quote]
What are you on about, the only thing that comes from eezo are mass effect fields and FTL. They are definitely not the "most" from that list. And that still breaks the "If you put more than one magic rock, the fictional universe will implode!" argument.

[quote]The asari and aliens in general (well, except the geth and maybe the Reapers) do not fall under the term "technology"[/quote]
They fall under technobabble, science and lore.

Trying to explain them makes as much sense as trying to explain the Lazarus Project.

[quote]And FTL communications (except for the quantum entanglement devices the Illusive Man uses) are done via comm buoys operating through the mass relays [/quote]
I am talking about quantum entaglement.


[quote]So let's see the technology!  We can see relays, can't we?  From what we'd seen of medical technology and cybernetics pre-LP, Macgyver himself couldn't have put Shepard back together with that.[/quote]
"If BioWare could show the technolodgy then they would have disc-"
"So let's see the technolodgy!"

Right.

You see the technolodgy. 


And it's effects.

You are not being thrown a 200-word codex entry that still doesn't manage to explain anything.


[quote]So?  I saw the effects, not the cause.  What caused the reversal?[/quote]
Element X

The one that is missing in anything science-related in the MEverse.

The "in the meantime".

The one that makes the mass of objects to change when you make neutrons interact with electricity.

Or 

creates specific compounds just by a pure mixture of their elements, just by the command on an omni-tool.


[quote]So would you have liked the series better if we never saw a mass relay or heard one referred to except a general term like "The Network"?  No galaxy map, just a load screen.  No Mu Relay, no Omega IV Relay, no Conduit.  Because there's no way their function can be fully explained with science, so why bother showing a device that can instantaneously allow travel to other worlds?  We just accept that inter-system travel is possible?[/quote]
"Mass Relays show the technolodgy behind mass effect fields."
"Would you rather never see them?"

I am sure that you are realize that both are wrong, especially the second one (Hint: We see the technolodgy behind the LP as much as we do for the mass relays, except it doesn't last for 5 seconds), so I'll let you fix your post.



[quote]What I want is a balance. No, hard science won't answer everything, and and can't. On the other hand, handwaving it away with vague "cybernetics, regeneration, and a whole lotta cash" is too little. What I want is something that stands between the two. A fantastic discovery, a piece of new or rediscovered technology, an experimental technique or piece or reaper tech. Something that justifies an enormous leap forward in medical science. Something that, by all we've seen in the ME universe, should not exist.[/quote]You want, the magic rock, which Lazarus Project is. Okay?

I think that you should stop using the "I want to see the breakthrough!" argument after we have been talking about how the LP is the breakthrough after so many pages.
[quote]So, what , as long as one brain cell remained intact, Shepard could be restored in his/her entirety once the rest of the brain was regrown?[/quote]No, having parts of brain destroyed that don't hold "knowledge" and "memories" as well as personality, should have no effect on the rest whatsoever. Since the brain is turned off.

[quote]Point to me one conversation in the game where Shepard asks about the Lazarus Project and gets a straight answer beyond "it was really expensive" One codex entry.  one file.  All I recall hearing is vague terms like "biosynthetic fusion" and 'greatest medical achievement in humanity's history"

If I'm told a machine conducts surgery cell by cell, I'll accept that the machine is conducting surgery cell by cell.  I see a relay[/quote]
No.

Because even then you would complain about not seeing anything but the effects of the magic. That device still not explains how it's possible to conduct surgery in 1 cell, let alone trillions.

And yes, you will create an image of a cellular surgery device, and no, you won't accept it.



[quote], I know what it's doing, because people on the screen talk about it and I can look it up in the codex.  If I see a biotic in action, I know what I'm seeing, because I talked to Kaidan and Jack and know a bit about what a biotic is capable of (oh, yeah, there's also codex entries about biotics too) [/quote]
Ah, codex entries, you want to talk about those?

I find a cutscene 10 times as informative as an extremely vague entry.

[quote]Bringing back a brain that's been dead for two years ...well...uh...it was really expensive.  And they did this thing with a neuron, and...It's technical, you wouldn't understand.[/quote]
-Cellular Regeneration
-Cybernetics
-Not a clone.
-No control chips.

You literally see a device creating artificial blood, but if you want to think that the only explanation you won't to be given is "that it is really expensive", then you can tell that to yourself. Just don't drag everyone to a 10 page debate with you concluding 

"It's too expensive and too technical, that's all the explanation I am getting."

What's the point of entering a debate, with that attitude? 

"This video shows this and this, and..."
"But I am still not getting an explanation, because it's too expensive and too technical!"


[quote]
Unless you are asking for an explanation from BioWare as to how death works, then that is completely off the point.

Mass is real.
Chemical compounds are real.
Evolution is real.
Spacetime is real.
Again, spacetime is real.
Cthulhu is real.

See? Try not to connect relevant topics and assume that they are the same.
[/quote]

All of the above are things most people are not going to interact with save on a casual level (here's hoping no one interacts with Cthulhu at all, but that's another thing).  Death is very personal.  The whole point of killing Shepard off seemed to be for the shock value, to get an emotional response.  And death is emotional for people.  So to bring Shepard back to life, with only vague assurances of how "difficult" it was, demands a more in-depth explanation.  That's what I mean by "death is real"  Everything else, science fiction-y space magic.  But dead is dead.  But somehow it got reversed in ME2.  
[/quote]
"All of the above are things most people are not going to interact with save on a casual level " (Mass, Chemical Compounds, spacetime).

Sure, the universe around us is too casual. For an organic structure to stop working is not.

And that applies to a personal level as well, the understanding of the natural world always was more important to death in ancient times, because, guess what, even then they understood that death is a part of the natural world.

Death is personal only due to fear of the unknown, which is created by the natural world.

And yes, people, religious or not, fear death due to a logical flaw.

[quote]Destroy Raiden wrote...

What the video showed for the project would be enough work to get shep to a vegetable state ie the body is working but there is no explanation of the ultimate switch on to get shep's soul back into his body and become shep the person rather then just shep the body. 

As one poster already suggested a theory on TIM used the husk beacon he was exposed to to turn that final switch on to make shep alive and aware which if it was the case the files should state it, if they used something else it should state that too. I can't help but think that TIM needs shep to believe he's shep for some reason I think if shep found out he was say infused with husk tech he would start turning into one sense his body no longer will fight it if the knowledge of it is there. [/quote]
They show the switch at work. Never noticed the part with the synapses and the neuron, and the zoom at the brain? They show it being done.

Modifié par Phaedon, 04 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...
There you go:

They show enough futuristic machinery for my tastes.

A cutscene with a mass relay that lasts for a few seconds is better, somehow.

Combined with:
Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species.

Yes, very much so.  I don't get how they work.  What is there is likely nonsesnse.  But it's good enough for my purposes.

.And that still breaks the "If you put more than one magic rock, the fictional universe will implode!" argument.

It hurts the universe when there's a second magic rock that is neither identified nor even mentioned.   Particularly when the mysterious magic rock is the one that brought the protagonist back to life to continue the fight.

I am talking about quantum entaglement.

Glad you mentioned that:

www.youtube.com/watch 6:00.  Shepard gets to ask EDI about the quantum entanglement device, and EDI answers.  She tells Shepard how it works (in broad terms that may or may not be accurate, no clue here)She tells Shepard about its uses and limitations, why it isn't more widely used.  But, but, that's impossible!  An explanation about a previously unknown piece of technology?  Pure heresy! 

You see the technolodgy.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dhcBr0oUHM

And it's effects.

You are not being thrown a 200-word codex entry that still doesn't manage to explain anything.

Then get EDI up here, I want to know what I'm seeing.

Element X

The one that is missing in anything science-related in the MEverse.

EDI's a lot easier to talk to, you know that?

So what is Element X?  What does it do that solved the "raise the dead" problem?  Element zero alters mass with a current of elecricity.  Fine.  What does this do when you plug it in?

You want, the magic rock, which Lazarus Project is. Okay?
I think that you should stop using the "I want to see the breakthrough!" argument after we have been talking about how the LP is the breakthrough after so many pages.

No, the Lazarus Project is not the magic rock.  The Lazarus Project is the result of the magic rock.  The LP is the blue glow around biotics in action.  The magic rock is talking to Kaidan about being a biotic.  Or reading the codex.

Today, we have basic cybernetics and regenerative treatments.  But we cannot bring back the dead
In 2183, cybernetics and regenerative treatments are more advanced, but again the dead stay dead.
Shepard died.  This is not good.
So what's the problem?  What was the sticking point that prevented resurrection technology?  What was "the greatest medical miracle in the history of humanity"?  A drug?  a machine?  A piece of Prothean technology?  a chunk of Sovereign?  A surgical technique?

That's the magic rock.  That's what makes the Lazarus Project possible, as opposed to Alliance County General's surgical wing.  Or even Mordin's free clinic.

No, having parts of brain destroyed that don't hold "knowledge" and "memories" as well as personality, should have no effect on the rest whatsoever. Since the brain is turned off.

And when all the cells are starving at about the same rate?

No.

Because even then you would complain about not seeing anything but the effects of the magic. That device still not explains how it's possible to conduct surgery in 1 cell, let alone trillions.

And yes, you will create an image of a cellular surgery device, and no, you won't accept it.

You do realize I came to accept how the omniblade worked once I read the tweet on how it works in lore, right?  I can be convinced of these things.

Ah, codex entries, you want to talk about those?

I find a cutscene 10 times as informative as an extremely vague entry.

I find that the codex combined with cutscenes and in-game conversations, complement each other rather well.  It leads to clearer explanations.

-Cellular Regeneration
-Cybernetics
-Not a clone.
-No control chips.

You literally see a device creating artificial blood, but if you want to think that the only explanation you won't to be given is "that it is really expensive", then you can tell that to yourself. Just don't drag everyone to a 10 page debate with you concluding 

"It's too expensive and too technical, that's all the explanation I am getting."

So tell me, what was done in that cutscene that could not be done at an Alliance facility?  Or a salarian one?  Or as asari?  What was the special something that brought the neuron back to life that no one else has?

Modifié par iakus, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:43 .

[KujiPR]

I am glad someone made references to the minovsky particles in Gundam lore (similar to Unobtanium in Avatar).

Now, in regards to LP:

I could understand a light touch of the subject in ME3 and/or a highly unlikely feed/info from Liara regarding the state of the body, but I doubt it will be dwelled upon. I would have expected more of a philosophical approach to the fact that "Dude, I was dead, meat and tubes". But if touched upon, it could strike some delicate chords regarding life after death, god, religion, which I am sure Bioware/EA does not want to jump into. (Evangelion comes to mind for a sec)

Saying I don't really care about it, is a bit extreme. I am mildly interested in the intricate details, maybe some autopsy/operation logs/details or reactions to how the body looked, but nothing more. I'll leave the argument at that.

Modifié par KujiPR, 04 juillet 2011 - 06:02 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

^ Yes nothing says screw with religion like Eva did I think they didn't leave a religious lore untouched or twisted in that anime But this topic is not about religion it's about how they came to the end result of shep being made alive via science.

Rei (from Eva) is similar to Shep in the revival department though what they did to recover her mind was after every battle Rei survived she would have to go into a memory recording device that would record all her thoughts,experiences, and injuries so if she died next fight they would pull a clone and map her past experiences into it and her body would develop the same injuries it had last recording session due to cell memory. If Shep had a grey box prior to dying and Cerberus simply put it back into his head during the LP I would accept that. I think now though if he didn't have one before TIM made sure to place one in shep now.

But I've also added your want for operation logs and commentary on the bodies progress as it was being regenerated.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 04 juillet 2011 - 08:44 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]iakus wrote...

Combined with:
Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.There are many dormant primary relays whose corresponding twins have not yet been located. These are left inactive until their partner is charted, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a hostile species.

Yes, very much so.  I don't get how they work.  What is there is likely nonsesnse.  But it's good enough for my purposes.[/quote]
Ye wish.

The only explanation there is the bold part, with even the mass effect fields having a longer explanation.
In comparison to what is a 2 minute cutscene.


[quote].It hurts the universe when there's a second magic rock that is neither identified nor even mentioned.   Particularly when the mysterious magic rock is the one that brought the protagonist back to life to continue the fight.[/quote]

Omni-gel
Medi-gel
Asari Reproduction
Quantum Entaglement

Original argument.
[/quote][quote]www.youtube.com/watch 6:00.  Shepard gets to ask EDI about the quantum entanglement device, and EDI answers.  She tells Shepard how it works (in broad terms that may or may not be accurate, no clue here)She tells Shepard about its uses and limitations, why it isn't more widely used.  But, but, that's impossible!  An explanation about a previously unknown piece of technology?  Pure heresy! [/quote]I find it a bit funny. You see, we have two magic rocks, where you are given the name of them "QED/LP" and then a brief explanation of what they do "quantum entaglement/resurrection using limited cybernetics, cellular regeneration and maintaining memories" and nothing in the meantime.

The fact that you have yet to complain about the lack of explanation of how these quantums are put into the entangled state says everything I think.

[quote]Then get EDI up here, I want to know what I'm seeing.[/quote]
Hello, Shepard.

This is the cockpit, this is wh-

My information on Cerberus is limi-

WILL YOU STOP SKIPING MY LINES ALREADY? I AM VOICED BY GOD DAMN TRICIA HELFER. Now, what do you want,

Ah, I see, video commentary. Which v-

Really?

Okay, okay.
0:00-0:10  -- A platform progresses in the Alchera terrain, you can see fog in the background.
0:11 -- As you can see, it is fully equipped to zoom down to human hair in a microscopic level.
0:12 -- Some sort of organic substance is detected and recovered by a three-arm component.
0:15 -- The component attaches this device to ensure that the organ that has been seen earlier will be transferred in tact. Other preservation services also probable.
0:20 -- A fully functional human heart is examined, scanned and then installed into what appears to be a fully constructed skeleton.
0:30 -- A more delicate component is used to inject some  sort of cyan substance that revives the dead cells that are in an isotonic state. 
0:39 -- Arteries and veins are being installed on the hand.
0:45 -- Other machinery does something that I have no idea what it is.
0:46 -- For additional durability a mechanical component is installed onto the spinal cord.
0:50 -- Heart is now fully functional. 
0:54 -- A bloody and pointy blade is thrown into a solution
1:00 -- The brain is also functional, you can see a neuron and a synapse "turning on".
1:12 More properties are shown






[quote]EDI's a lot easier to talk to, you know that?

So what is Element X?  What does it do that solved the "raise the dead" problem?  Element zero alters mass with a current of elecricity.  Fine.  What does this do when you plug it in?[/quote]
Geezeeeee

Element X =/= Element Zero

Element Zero + Element X + Electricity -----> Mass Effect
Cybernetics + Regeneration + Element X ----> Lazarus Project.

That's the whole point. There will always be some sort of element x which can not be explained.


[quote]No, the Lazarus Project is not the magic rock.  The Lazarus Project is the result of the magic rock.  The LP is the blue glow around biotics in action.  The magic rock is talking to Kaidan about being a biotic.  Or reading the codex.

Today, we have basic cybernetics and regenerative treatments.  But we cannot bring back the dead
In 2183, cybernetics and regenerative treatments are more advanced, but again the dead stay dead.
Shepard died.  This is not good.
So what's the problem?  What was the sticking point that prevented resurrection technology?  What was "the greatest medical miracle in the history of humanity"?  A drug?  a machine?  A piece of Prothean technology?  a chunk of Sovereign?  A surgical technique?

That's the magic rock.  That's what makes the Lazarus Project possible, as opposed to Alliance County General's surgical wing.  Or even Mordin's free clinic.[/quote]
Nope. Even the element x may be around in some form, as the rest of the components of the recipe are. The Lazarus Project is the magic rock, because it included everything of those, may be even discovered a couple of element Xs and resurrected Shepard. Shepard is the result of the magic rock.

It's called a breakthrough for a reason.

[quote]And when all the cells are starving at about the same rate?[/quote]
Again, you are lacking original arguments.

The cells are starving, nobody denies that, hence why element X is needed.

That still has nothing to do with a damaged part of the brain interacting and causing more trouble to others.

[quote]You do realize I came to accept how the omniblade worked once I read the tweet on how it works in lore, right?  I can be convinced of these things.[/quote]
The omni-blade has a full, realistic explanation, if you consider the ME fields as existing tech.

You are talking about a machine that does cellular surgery to all of the cells, one by one.  Which has it's own share of Element Xs, by the way.

[quote]I find that the codex combined with cutscenes and in-game conversations, complement each other rather well.  It leads to clearer explanations.[/quote]
And the LP only lacked the codex explanation.

[quote]So tell me, what was done in that cutscene that could not be done at an Alliance facility?  Or a salarian one?  Or as asari?  What was the special something that brought the neuron back to life that no one else has?[/quote]
For starters, you see a neuron being turned on.

Modifié par Phaedon, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:50 .

[Iakus]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Ye wish.

The only explanation there is the bold part, with even the mass effect fields having a longer explanation.
In comparison to what is a 2 minute cutscene.[/quote]

And this tells me what happens during the relay cutscene.

Imagine if there was a similar entry explaining what's happening when that neuron is restored...


[quote]Omni-gel
Medi-gel
Asari Reproduction
Quantum Entaglement

Original argument.
[/quote]

I forget, how is any of that vital to continuing the Mass Effect story?  IE, brings Shepard back to life after teh Collector ambush?

[quote]
I find it a bit funny. You see, we have two magic rocks, where you are given the name of them "QED/LP" and then a brief explanation of what they do "quantum entaglement/resurrection using limited cybernetics, cellular regeneration and maintaining memories" and nothing in the meantime.

The fact that you have yet to complain about the lack of explanation of how these quantums are put into the entangled state says everything I think.[/quote]
And here I thought I had one magic rock which gave a brief overview of what the magic rock did, what's cool about ti, the limits of its magic, and why other people don't go out to get their versions of this magic rock.  And a second magic rock where you get no explanation, you have to make inferences based on what you can pick up, but it's the greatest discovery ever, trust us.

And yes, it should says something.  It says "This is the kind of answer I wanted from Miranda or TIM.  Or a codex entry. Or a log on the lazarus station."   I told you I'm not picky, nor a science geek.

[quote]
[quote]Then get EDI up here, I want to know what I'm seeing.[/quote]
Okay, okay.
0:00-0:10  -- A platform progresses in the Alchera terrain, you can see fog in the background.
0:11 -- As you can see, it is fully equipped to zoom down to human hair in a microscopic level.
0:12 -- Some sort of organic substance is detected and recovered by a three-arm component.
0:15 -- The component attaches this device to ensure that the organ that has been seen earlier will be transferred in tact. Other preservation services also probable.
0:20 -- A fully functional human heart is examined, scanned and then installed into what appears to be a fully constructed skeleton.
0:30 -- A more delicate component is used to inject some  sort of cyan substance that revives the dead cells that are in an isotonic state. 
0:39 -- Arteries and veins are being installed on the hand.
0:45 -- Other machinery does something that I have no idea what it is.
0:46 -- For additional durability a mechanical component is installed onto the spinal cord.
0:50 -- Heart is now fully functional. 
0:54 -- A bloody and pointy blade is thrown into a solution
1:00 -- The brain is also functional, you can see a neuron and a synapse "turning on".
1:12 More properties are shown[/quote]

Back up a bit EDI, A neuron turned on?  How is that possible?  A synapse restored?  I've never heard of anything like that being done before?  How'd they make the leap from rebuilding organs to rewiring a brain?


[quote]
Element X =/= Element Zero

Element Zero + Element X + Electricity -----> Mass Effect
Cybernetics + Regeneration + Element X ----> Lazarus Project.

That's the whole point. There will always be some sort of element x which can not be explained.[/quote]

And yet Element Zero is explained.  Or at least, identified.  Was it too much to give the Lazarus Project the same treatment?


[quote
Nope. Even the element x may be around in some form, as the rest of the components of the recipe are. The Lazarus Project is the magic rock, because it included everything of those, may be even discovered a couple of element Xs and resurrected Shepard. Shepard is the result of the magic rock.

It's called a breakthrough for a reason.[/quote]

Yes it is a breakthrough.  But what is the breakthrough?  Something, or several somethings were discovered that no one else seems to have access too, to bring Shepard back.  The Lazarus Project may be the final result of this breakthrough, but the fact remains that anywhere else, Shepard would have been meat on a slab.  No amount of cybernetics or regeneration treatments would have been effective.  So what did Cerberus do here that was so different?  That is Element X

[quote]
Again, you are lacking original arguments.

The cells are starving, nobody denies that, hence why element X is needed.

That still has nothing to do with a damaged part of the brain interacting and causing more trouble to others.[/quote]

It has to do with several parts of the brain being damaged, possibly the whole organ.  Right up until the moment the brain got put into stasis, or whatever.  Damage that needs to be repaired exactly as it was before.  This is the part that demands a QED explanation.  Or a Mass Relay codex entry.  Something lame and space-magicy to explain how the impossible was accomplished.


[quote]
And the LP only lacked the codex explanation.[/quote]

And an in-game conversation. Neither TIM nor Miranda ever uses the term "regeneration" or "cybernetics" Just money and time.

[quote]
For starters, you see a neuron being turned on.
[/quote]

And that was done with...?

[Sable Phoenix]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Every experience in all of human history tells us that once the brain stops, the person inside that brain is gone, permanently...  And nothing (at least nothing that isn't supernatural, if you believe in the supernatural) has ever brought anyone back.

This is where you touch on the real issue.

First, it's a weak argument in the sense of the ongoing debate. What do you suppose people in, say, the seventeenth century, though about landing on the Moon? It was probably, "every experience in human history tells us that we can't fly, so it's impossible to fly to the Moon." (Not to mention that this is also a good example of a technological breakthrough that had extreme cultural ramifications, and yet even after 50 years, it's still not something that anyone can do any day. It's possible and wonderful, but it may be another century or more before it can be "mass produced.")

Second, medical sciences aren't nearly as exact as fundamental sciences. It's only easier to accept FTL travel because it's a trope that's been around for many, many years and it's present in almost every form of sci-fi. To a physicist (cough, cough), FTL is a lot more difficult to get over in terms of suspension of disbelief, than resurrection. Why? Because we know exactly why FTL is impossible while we have no idea why resurrection is impossible.

So can't we at least agree that there are double standards here to what comprises a good explanation of magic?

But the problem I believe, isn't in missing an ingame explanation. People are offended by LP because it's testing, teasing, the core beliefs held by most of us. The complaints against LP brought up in this thread are not entirely rational - they are rather emotional, and related to beliefs and values, not to impassive knowledge or inconsistencies within the lore. 

That's why I also don't think that adding more codex entries with vague nods relating LP with this or that would do much to help alleviate these qualms.

No.

I have no problem with resurrection as a dramatic device in fiction, when it's done right.  Planescape:Torment is a perfect example of it not only done right, but made integral to the plot, and Planescape:Torment is not only the greatest computer-based RPG ever made but a damn good piece of literature in its own right.  It's established from the very first second of the game that death works differently in that universe than in ours.  As long as the writers offer an explanation why this is the case, and don't break the rules of exactly how that occurs, the player/reader (including myself) has no problem suspending disbelief and accepting it.

The problem with resurrection in Mass Effect is that neither game indicates that death works any differently than in our universe, with the sole exception being the Lazarus Project.  Since it is the sole exception, we better get a darn good explanation as to why.

You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable... that is, if it's something we don't deal with every day, we'll much more easily accept that it could happen in fiction.  If, on the other hand, we do encounter it, or its effects, on a daily basis (death, in this case), you better be able to tell us why this reference point for the human experience that we're so familiar with has suddenly shifted to a new location.

I've yet to see anyone show how the BioWare writers did that with the Lazarus Project.  They basically said, "We know it's always been the same as in our world, but it works a different way, just this one time, for no reason except because we say so."  That's not good enough.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:43 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Phaedon wrote...

Element X =/= Element Zero

Element Zero + Element X + Electricity -----> Mass Effect
Cybernetics + Regeneration + Element X ----> Lazarus Project.

That's the whole point. There will always be some sort of element x which can not be explained.

Oh for...

Nice bait-and-switch you pulled, swapping Element Zero with neutrons there, even though in-universe they are not the same thing.  But alright, fine, if you want to do it that way, your equations are still wrong.

There is no Element X because we're never told what Element X is in the story.  We can't figure out what Element X would be from looking at the real world, we have to be told what it is by the writers.  If the universe doesn't tell us Element X exists, it's not part of the equation. The reader or viewer cannot know it, because there's no way for us to know anything about the universe except for what the writers explain.  Since this is fiction, if the writers don't tell us about it, then it does not exist, because it is totally outside of our abilty to perceive it.

The first equation should read:  Element Zero + Electric Current = Mass Effect

That's the only equation we're given in-universe.  Frankly, since Element Zero doesn't exist as far as we know, and we have no reference or familiarity with it, that's close enough for government work, as they say.  We'll accept it for the sake of the story.  Yes it's hokum, but it's believable hokum.  And believable hokum is the lifeblood of fiction.

As for the second equation: Cybernetics + Cellular Regeneration = Lazarus Project

Now we have a problem.  This too is hokum, but it's unbelievable hokum, which is the heart attack of fiction.  We actually need an Element X in this one, because we have all come into contact with or learned information on cybernetics and cellular regeneration.  Most of us don't on a daily basis, but we've seen or experienced them in some form in our lives.  And we know from those experiences that they do not raise the dead.  If those things are all that was involved in the Lazarus Project, then Element X is the special new process by which those two things can raise the dead.  If those two things were not all that was involved, Element X is the third component that allowed them to raise the dead.  However, the writers don't tell us what the Element X is.  As such, it is totally outside of our ability to perceive it... and as such, because this is fiction, it doesn't exist.

Someone might say, "Well Element X must exist, because the Lazarus Project worked."  My reply would be, "Then what is Element X?"  Since nobody can answer that, the suspension of disbelief is, as J.R.R. Tolkien famously said about stage theater, "hung, drawn, and quartered."  The difference between good fiction and bad fiction all comes down to the suspension of disbelief... when that dies, so does the drama.

This is why the Lazarus Project fails, from a dramatic sense.  There's no way to explain it satisfactorily with the information we're given.  I don't care about hard science.  I only care about believability for the sake of drama.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:17 .

[Fhaileas]

I think the central question is not how they were able to "physically" resurrect Shephard, but how they were able to imbue her with "consciousness". Where exactly does consciousness reside? Even if the brain was intact, that does not explain where the "mind" came back into being from. Consciousness is more than a serious of interconnecting neural networks and electrical impulses. I could (implausibly) buy that they could resurrect Shephard's body, but that automaton wouldn't "be" Shephard. 

Modifié par Fhaileas, 05 juillet 2011 - 09:29 .

[OnlyHazeRemains]

Fhaileas wrote...

I think the central question is not how they were able to "physically" resurrect Shephard, but how they were able to imbue her with "consciousness". Where exactly does consciousness reside? Even if the brain was intact, that does not explain where the "mind" came back into being from. Consciousness is more than a serious of interconnecting neural networks and electrical impulses. I could (implausibly) buy that they could resurrect Shephard's body, but that automaton wouldn't "be" Shephard. 

Congratulations, we are now at the point where i drop the name

Ghost in the Shell

and tell you to f*** off and take that discussion elsewhere. This is far too philosophic to reach a general consensus.

I for my part am content to believe that Sheps brain was preserved due to some lucky circumstance (the helmet we find is largely intact, so the "content" must have survived too). I have no idea about the state of modern science on the human brain but i believe that the "consciousness" is physically hard-coded and if you knew how, you could electronically extract that consciousness from a dead brain (within a certain timespan). Provided you have a place to store all that information and a "dictionary" to digitalize it. So thats simply what the LP did, amongst other things. They were lucky that the brain was undamaged and frozen and they "copied" sheps conciousness with the help of a reaper "cipher" to the human brain. Theres your magic rock. Then they rebuild the body and finally just "hotwired" the heart, all the electric currents start flowing again and *poof* = Shep is back.

Is that the kind of answer that iakus and Sable Phoenix want?

Modifié par Samurai_Smartie, 05 juillet 2011 - 12:29 .