337 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

Congratulations, we are now at the point where i drop the name

Ghost in the Shell

and tell you to f*** off and take that discussion elsewhere. This is far too philosophic to reach a general consensus.

I for my part am content to believe that Sheps brain was preserved due to some lucky circumstance (the helmet we find is largely intact, so the "content" must have survived too). I have no idea about the state of modern science on the human brain but i believe that the "consciousness" is physically hard-coded and if you knew how, you could electronically extract that consciousness from a dead brain (within a certain timespan). Provided you have a place to store all that information and a "dictionary" to digitalize it. So thats simply what the LP did, amongst other things. They were lucky that the brain was undamaged and frozen and they "copied" sheps conciousness with the help of a reaper "cipher" to the human brain. Theres your magic rock. Then they rebuild the body and finally just "hotwired" the heart, all the electric currents start flowing again and *poof* = Shep is back.

Is that the kind of answer that iakus and Sable Phoenix want?

If Miranda, TIM, EDI, or a file on the Lazarus base actually said all that, then yes, I would accept such a premise. What you described is something that could exist in the ME universe, as the geth keep "backups" of themselves on file.  The ability for humans to replicate that, even if they can't use it to transfer to a new "platform", would be an amazing medical achievement that could push back the boundaries of death even further.  And the admission that it was as much luck as science would keep the Lazarus Project unique and "special"

So yes, I'd theoretically accept that as a possible explanation for how the magic rock for the LP works.  Now all I need is for it to show up as an in-game explanation.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Fhaileas wrote...

I think the central question is not how they were able to "physically" resurrect Shephard, but how they were able to imbue her with "consciousness". Where exactly does consciousness reside? Even if the brain was intact, that does not explain where the "mind" came back into being from. Consciousness is more than a serious of interconnecting neural networks and electrical impulses. I could (implausibly) buy that they could resurrect Shephard's body, but that automaton wouldn't "be" Shephard. 

This is one of my issues as well just because they could get the body up and running that just means shep's a vegetable breathing only by machines that doesn't mean he's a conscious person how did they do that? I just recently watched a story of a kid dying and was dead for 23 minutes they finally managed to revive him but they had to cool his body down so his mind could turn on slowly in order to avoid brain damage but even after that he had amnesia he was missing 2 years of his life. How did they infuse shep who was dead for months with his memories and him come out OK? Not to mention if memories are only as good as the connection points in the brain then shep's memory should be horrible those connections were decaying as soon as the heart stopped.

EDIT: Samurai_smartie watch the language telling some one to F-off because you don't like an anime's way of handling death and revival is by no means grounds for course language.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 05 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[Lady Olivia]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I have no problem with resurrection as a dramatic device in fiction, when it's done right.  Planescape:Torment is a perfect example of it not only done right, but made integral to the plot, and Planescape:Torment is not only the greatest computer-based RPG ever made but a damn good piece of literature in its own right.  It's established from the very first second of the game that death works differently in that universe than in ours.  As long as the writers offer an explanation why this is the case, and don't break the rules of exactly how that occurs, the player/reader (including myself) has no problem suspending disbelief and accepting it.

Heh, if you think so highly of ME as to compare it with Torment, I can see why this issue pains you so much. For me, it's like comparing Disney to Lars von Trier.

The problem with resurrection in Mass Effect is that neither game indicates that death works any differently than in our universe, with the sole exception being the Lazarus Project.  Since it is the sole exception, we better get a darn good explanation as to why.

Death doesn't work differently in ME. Medicine does. It's the difference between how people thought about pneumonia before and after penicillin, only here it's brain-death and cybernetics. And who says it's the only exception? There was an excellent post some pages ago detailing a Cerberus Network report that gives a pretty good precedent for LP. Even if Shepard is the first successful Lazarus, nothing in the games indicates he's necessarily the last.

You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable... that is, if it's something we don't deal with every day, we'll much more easily accept that it could happen in fiction.  If, on the other hand, we do encounter it, or its effects, on a daily basis (death, in this case), you better be able to tell us why this reference point for the human experience that we're so familiar with has suddenly shifted to a new location.

I've yet to see anyone show how the BioWare writers did that with the Lazarus Project.  They basically said, "We know it's always been the same as in our world, but it works a different way, just this one time, for no reason except because we say so."  That's not good enough.

Again, I agree with most of your sentiments: I also think LP was unnecessary, a bad move by the writers, a heavy tool used for a trivial task. But your attempts to discredit it on a meta-scientific basis and on the basis of internal inconsistency just don't hold water.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:12 .

[OnlyHazeRemains]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

[...]
EDIT: Samurai_smartie watch the language telling some one to F-off because you don't like an anime's way of handling death and revival is by no means grounds for course language.

Thats totally not what i meant.
I ment to (rather rudely i admit) interrupt Fhaileas line of thought cause that leads to a philosophical debate of epic proportions which doesnt belong here.


PS:
I still wonder how Sheps body managed to survive planetfall just with a standard N7 armor. Alchera has -22° surface temp, but a fairly standard athmosphere and gravity well. So how exactly did Shep not burn up?
Theres something to ponder about...

PPS:

This is the internet. Stop being babies about the f-word.

Modifié par Samurai_Smartie, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:29 .

[Lady Olivia]

iakus wrote...

Shepard gets to ask EDI about the quantum entanglement device, and EDI answers.

Sorry if this is a bit out of context, but EDI can answer this because quantum entanglement is sort of for real.

Perhaps the difference in the level of detail between LP and other "magic" elements comes from having a good scientific advisor for physics (astronomy, not so much), and biology/medicine.

[Sable Phoenix]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

Fhaileas wrote...

I think the central question is not how they were able to "physically" resurrect Shephard, but how they were able to imbue her with "consciousness". Where exactly does consciousness reside? Even if the brain was intact, that does not explain where the "mind" came back into being from. Consciousness is more than a serious of interconnecting neural networks and electrical impulses. I could (implausibly) buy that they could resurrect Shephard's body, but that automaton wouldn't "be" Shephard. 

Congratulations, we are now at the point where i drop the name

Ghost in the Shell

and tell you to f*** off and take that discussion elsewhere. This is far too philosophic to reach a general consensus.

I for my part am content to believe that Sheps brain was preserved due to some lucky circumstance (the helmet we find is largely intact, so the "content" must have survived too). I have no idea about the state of modern science on the human brain but i believe that the "consciousness" is physically hard-coded and if you knew how, you could electronically extract that consciousness from a dead brain (within a certain timespan). Provided you have a place to store all that information and a "dictionary" to digitalize it. So thats simply what the LP did, amongst other things. They were lucky that the brain was undamaged and frozen and they "copied" sheps conciousness with the help of a reaper "cipher" to the human brain. Theres your magic rock. Then they rebuild the body and finally just "hotwired" the heart, all the electric currents start flowing again and *poof* = Shep is back.

Is that the kind of answer that iakus and Sable Phoenix want?

Nope.

If the BioWare writers had said that's what happened, okay, fine.  In fact, I would love to hear they somehow acquired Alliance brain scans and somehow uploaded the patterns back into the brain, or that they installed a quantum bluebox with those patterns.  Something, anything.  We get zero.  Zip.  Nada.

The magic rock only exists if the writers say it exists.

[CroGamer002]

Lazarus Project became pointless after Shepard left that station so no point of explaining it.

Especially since you can be very wrong about that subject.


Also I would argue it would be dumb to explaining it, even if explanation is good.
Why would Illusive Man ever said to Shepard how that project was successful?
I'm pretty sure he'll keep it for himself.

Modifié par Mesina2, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .

[Lady Olivia]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

Thats totally not what i meant.

Could've fooled me. 

I ment to (rather rudely i admit) interrupt Fhaileas line of thought cause that leads to a philosophical debate of epic proportions which doesnt belong here.

That's not for you to decide, unless you're a moderator in disguise. Fhaileas brings up an interesting question and I for one wouldn't mind hearing what people think about it. Obviously you had no problem giving your opinion on something you'd rather not discuss - that the consciousness is "physically hard coded." For people who think otherwise, LP must seem very unbelievable indeed, even if we ignore the lack of a detailed explanation.

[Crackseed]

I accept the Lazarus's "sci-fi" magic because if I consider that even with today's medicine, we're basically almost to the point where we can use stem cells to replicate missing tissue and this could eventually lead to us figuring out how to restore brain cells - it seems logical that several hundred years in the future for all intents and purposes we discover that consciousness and what "defines" an individual person is something that doesn't go away with death and if the body can be restored, including brain cells, synapses, etc then the person's psyche/consciousness is essentially brought back to life. It's stretching things in one vein because we know so little about how the brain works with regards to personality, etc - but at the same time given some of the advances we're making today, in the early 2000's - it's not so crazy to think we couldn't pull that kind of miracle off farther into the future.

Course, this is all based on the assumption that when someone dies, their brain doesn't basically "wipe" and become a blank slate, etc.

While it would have been nice for the devs to have generated a bit more background fiction for LP, I actually enjoyed the liberties they took with using it as a plot device to give ME2's opening some "shock value" and can suspend my disbelief enough to buy into what LP did. Maybe that makes me an overly forgiving fan, but thinking about the scientific ramifications of being able to do that, regardless of the cost, is pretty exciting

Modifié par crackseed, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:40 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Heh, if you think so highly of ME as to compare it with Torment, I can see why this issue pains you so much. For me, it's like comparing Disney to Lars von Trier.

I don't.  Mass Effect isn't even in the same league.  I use Torment simply as an example of one of the best treatments of death and resurrection in any fictitious medium.

Death doesn't work differently in ME. Medicine does. It's the difference between how people thought about pneumonia before and after penicillin, only here it's brain-death and cybernetics. And who says it's the only exception? There was an excellent post some pages ago detailing a Cerberus Network report that gives a pretty good precedent for LP. Even if Shepard is the first successful Lazarus, nothing in the games indicates he's necessarily the last.

Semantics.  Medicine works differently, but where it applies to death, it is largely the same.

The Cerberus Network report deals with a one-off situation that occured after the game.  That would only be a precedent only if we were told they used the same or similar processes to bring back Shepard.  They didn't.  There's no similarity at all as far as the information we are given about the Lazarus Project indicates.

Again, I agree with most of your sentiments: I also think LP was unnecessary, a bad move by the writers, a heavy tool used for a trivial task. But your attempts to discredit it on a meta-scientific basis and on the basis of internal inconsistency just don't hold water.

Okay, enough with throwing around the "science" word.  My objections have nothing to do with hard science, or meta-science, or any kind of science at all, as I've said before.  My objections are purely dramatic.  I've studied and taken enough classes on fiction and writing and drama to know of what I speak.  Whether or not they hold water scientifically, on the dramatic front, my objections hold so much water they sink the boat.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 juillet 2011 - 06:49 .

[Sable Phoenix]

crackseed wrote...

While it would have been nice for the devs to have generated a bit more background fiction for LP, I actually enjoyed the liberties they took with using it as a plot device to give ME2's opening some "shock value" and can suspend my disbelief enough to buy into what LP did. Maybe that makes me an overly forgiving fan...

It's obviously not just you.

[Lady Olivia]

Mesina2 wrote...

Also I would argue it would be dumb to explaining it, even if explanation is good.
Why would Illusive Man ever said to Shepard how that project was successful?
I'm pretty sure he'll keep it for himself.

That's a good point. But most of Cerberus stations/operations are claimed by the turians and the Alliance in Retribution. Wouldn't be too difficult to imagine them finding the details of LP among the... loot.

Can't remember... do we actually see the LP station destroyed? Or is it something we hear about later? Or not at all?

[CroGamer002]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Also I would argue it would be dumb to explaining it, even if explanation is good.
Why would Illusive Man ever said to Shepard how that project was successful?
I'm pretty sure he'll keep it for himself.

That's a good point. But most of Cerberus stations/operations are claimed by the turians and the Alliance in Retribution. Wouldn't be too difficult to imagine them finding the details of LP among the... loot.

Can't remember... do we actually see the LP station destroyed? Or is it something we hear about later? Or not at all?

Cerberus could have always send clean up group if base wasn't destroyed.

Though in Shadow Broker videos it says that lab station is gone like prison Purgatory.


And then again, why would Alliance or Turian Hierarchy share that with Shepard?
Why would they even say that to Shepard?
He/she doesn't know what happen in novels.

[Lady Olivia]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Okay, enough with throwing around the "science" word.  My objections have nothing to do with hard science, or meta-science, or any kind of science at all, as I've said before.  My objections are purely dramatic.  I've studied and taken enough classes fiction and writing and drama to know of what I speak.  Whether or not they hold water scientifically, on the dramatic front, they hold so much water they sink the boat.

Fine, so stop bringing the "impossibility of resurrection" to the table and stick to what you've studied. I've already said it twice but it doesn't hurt to repeat: your purely dramatic objections I pretty much agree with. It's when you go outside them that I feel I must speak up.

[Lady Olivia]

Mesina2 wrote...

And then again, why would Alliance or Turian Hierarchy share that with Shepard?
Why would they even say that to Shepard?
He/she doesn't know what happen in novels.

Yeah, but Shepard has friends. Think the thanix cannon. 

[CroGamer002]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

And then again, why would Alliance or Turian Hierarchy share that with Shepard?
Why would they even say that to Shepard?
He/she doesn't know what happen in novels.

Yeah, but Shepard has friends. Think the thanix cannon. 

Only 3 people, as far we know, can know anything about Lazarus Project.

Miranda, Jacob and Illusive Man.

We already know that Miranda and Jacob know nothing more then we know, while Illusive Man is, well, elusive.
And I think you'll care more about why is he doing all that stuff in ME3 then what was done in Lazarus Project.


Also it's a question if anything is saved from Lazarus Project or even that either Alliance or Turian Hierarchy found it.

Modifié par Mesina2, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:03 .

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...

And this tells me what happens during the relay cutscene.

Imagine if there was a similar entry explaining what's happening when that neuron is restored...

In hopes that this will somehow end up as an intelligent conversation and not remain the "Yes, but x", "But, x is y", "Yes, but x"

Tell me what happens during a relay cutscene. The mass of an object is lowered?

Good, during the LP cutscene, Shepard is resurrected.

The difference is, that for all you know, without a codex entry, relays may as well be supposed to accelerate objects to FTL velocities.

I forget, how is any of that vital to continuing the Mass Effect story?  IE, brings Shepard back to life after teh Collector ambush?

IE, the entire universe works only due to these technolodgies, and especially the mass effect.

Even if somehow you were right, and they were less important than the LP, and even if they were breakthroughs and not established technolodgies, that still doesn't stop them from being magic rocks.

Prove me wrong.

The MEverse has several magic rocks and it maintains a great lore. Therefore, the textbooks saying about the universe imploding if the universe has more than a magic rock, are ridiculously wrong.

And seeing how the cycle seems to recycle in these kind of arguments (hmm), no, they are not all based on one magic rock.

Omni-gel isn't, evolution isn't, asari reproduction isn't, telepathy isn't, QEDs aren't, medi-gel isn't etc etc.

And here I thought I had one magic rock which gave a brief overview of what the magic rock did, what's cool about ti, the limits of its magic, and why other people don't go out to get their versions of this magic rock.  And a second magic rock where you get no explanation, you have to make inferences based on what you can pick up, but it's the greatest discovery ever, trust us.

And yes, it should says something.  It says "This is the kind of answer I wanted from Miranda or TIM.  Or a codex entry. Or a log on the lazarus station."   I told you I'm not picky, nor a science geek.

Being a science geek has nothing to do with being picky and using hard science in arguments. Literally everyone involved in this debate, their grandma, their dog and their cat who don't support the LP have. 

Heck, I even remember someone messing up thermodynamics while trying to justify why Shepard would never be resurrected.

Back up a bit EDI, A neuron turned on?  How is that possible?  A synapse restored?  I've never heard of anything like that being done before?  How'd they make the leap from rebuilding organs to rewiring a brain?

Yeah, in case you haven't noticed it, we have brought up element X a while ago. Element X is the reason that LP is not contemporary science and why it is a  breakthrough.

And yeah, this paradox applies to every sci-fi plot point.

And yet I don't see you complaining to Verne about not explaining why he hasn't invented submarines yet, or Wells because he has yet to launch a military campaign from Mars, with futuristic looking war machines that shoot beams of unknown energy. And guess what, Wells was a science teacher, in his time.

And yet Element Zero is explained.  Or at least, identified.  Was it too much to give the Lazarus Project the same treatment?

But element zero is not a phenomenon, mass effect is.
Element zero is one of the reactants in the "reaction" of mass effect. And element zero does exist. It is the element of zero atomic mass. 

Yes it is a breakthrough.  But what is the breakthrough?  Something, or several somethings were discovered that no one else seems to have access too, to bring Shepard back.  The Lazarus Project may be the final result of this breakthrough, but the fact remains that anywhere else, Shepard would have been meat on a slab.  No amount of cybernetics or regeneration treatments would have been effective.  So what did Cerberus do here that was so different?  That is Element X

Well, thanks for restating what I said in my previous posts, it was tiresome to do so without help.

Element X or the combination of Element X with known science or other Element Xs is why it is a breakthrough.

So, what is this element X? Well, I'd love to tell you, but you see, I'd kind of rather publish a book on it instead and be regarded as the most influential phycist of all times, without even being a phycist.

It has to do with several parts of the brain being damaged, possibly the whole organ.  Right up until the moment the brain got put into stasis, or whatever.  Damage that needs to be repaired exactly as it was before.  This is the part that demands a QED explanation.  Or a Mass Relay codex entry.  Something lame and space-magicy to explain how the impossible was accomplished.

Err, you were never talking about this.

You were talking about other parts of the brain being hypothetically spreading even more damage, somehow. 

The rest of this paragraph is you asking for element X. Or a codex entry that explains everything other than Element X, well, we got a cutscene instead, sorry.

And an in-game conversation. Neither TIM nor Miranda ever uses the term "regeneration" or "cybernetics" Just money and time.

And yet you just used the term "biosynthetic fusion" ironically a few posts, back no?

And that was done with...?

The brain...working? They show that? Therefore it works?

[Phaedon]

Fhaileas wrote...

I think the central question is not how they were able to "physically" resurrect Shephard, but how they were able to imbue her with "consciousness". Where exactly does consciousness reside? Even if the brain was intact, that does not explain where the "mind" came back into being from. Consciousness is more than a serious of interconnecting neural networks and electrical impulses. I could (implausibly) buy that they could resurrect Shephard's body, but that automaton wouldn't "be" Shephard. 

I don't how to put it more simply, since I consider it as simple as possible.

-Conscience resides in the brain.
-The brain appears to be in tact, all theories that suggest otherwise have several in-game indicators that cancel them.
-The brain is turned on due to "Element X", a scientific breakthrough of Cerberus.
-To ask for an explanation as to how they restore conscience is like giving BioWare a dead body and yelling at them "FIX IT NAO".
-If it had a full explanation, it would be hard science that is used today.

[Crackseed]

I'd further support your arguments with recognition of the fact that few of us are probably dedicated scientists and even our smartest people today know almost nil about how the brain works and stores personality and information, so arguing that restarting/restoring functions of a brain and thus "bringing someone back to life" is as much as possibility as any of the other "scientific" liberties taken with Mass Effect holds weight.

I mean honestly anyone with any real "It must all be explained perfectly for me to enjoy this!" outlook should have thrown the game out the window as soon as they encountered omni-gel <.<

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Oh for...

Nice bait-and-switch you pulled, swapping Element Zero with neutrons there, even though in-universe they are not the same thing.  But alright, fine, if you want to do it that way, your equations are still wrong.

Zero atomic number.


Zero.

No protons.

No electrons.

Only neutrons.

There is no Element X because we're never told what Element X is in the story.  We can't figure out what Element X would be from looking at the real world, we have to be told what it is by the writers.  If the universe doesn't tell us Element X exists, it's not part of the equation. The reader or viewer cannot know it, because there's no way for us to know anything about the universe except for what the writers explain.  Since this is fiction, if the writers don't tell us about it, then it does not exist, because it is totally outside of our abilty to perceive it.

The first equation should read:  Element Zero + Electric Current = Mass Effect

That's the only equation we're given in-universe.  Frankly, since Element Zero doesn't exist as far as we know, and we have no reference or familiarity with it, that's close enough for government work, as they say.  We'll accept it for the sake of the story.  Yes it's hokum, but it's believable hokum.  And believable hokum is the lifeblood of fiction.

In which case, this part of the lore is wrong, along with:

• Omni-gel
• Medi-gel
• Evolution
• QE
• etc.

And even then it would still not explain how it unleashes dark energy. And it therefore requires additional explanation, no?

As for the second equation: Cybernetics + Cellular Regeneration = Lazarus Project

Now we have a problem.  This too is hokum, but it's unbelievable hokum, which is the heart attack of fiction.  We actually need an Element X in this one, because we have all come into contact with or learned information on cybernetics and cellular regeneration.  Most of us don't on a daily basis, but we've seen or experienced them in some form in our lives.  And we know from those experiences that they do not raise the dead.  If those things are all that was involved in the Lazarus Project, then Element X is the special new process by which those two things can raise the dead.  If those two things were not all that was involved, Element X is the third component that allowed them to raise the dead.  However, the writers don't tell us what the Element X is.  As such, it is totally outside of our ability to perceive it... and as such, because this is fiction, it doesn't exist.

Someone might say, "Well Element X must exist, because the Lazarus Project worked."  My reply would be, "Then what is Element X?"  Since nobody can answer that, the suspension of disbelief is, as J.R.R. Tolkien famously said about stage theater, "hung, drawn, and quartered."  The difference between good fiction and bad fiction all comes down to the suspension of disbelief... when that dies, so does the drama.

This is why the Lazarus Project fails, from a dramatic sense.  There's no way to explain it satisfactorily with the information we're given.  I don't care about hard science.  I only care about believability for the sake of drama.

"Frankly, since supah dupah futuristic cybernetics don't exist as far as we know, and we have no reference or familiarity with it, that's close enough for government work, as they say.  "

Cybernetics is a very broad term. Element Zero is not.
Should it have been a broard term or a fantastic element, with nothing to indicate that in the codex either way, then it still requires as much explanation as Project Lazarus.

The LP never says that it doesn't have an Element X. But it probably doesn't even need to, if you don't want it to.

Here's an explanation which doesn't require Element X because it violates your "Absolute Textbook on Rules that Must Be Maintained or Sci-Fi Sucks"

Combine Newton's Third Law, and Locard's Exchange Principle, that means that energy transfer within the brain leaves some sort of mark, no matter how definite it is.

A cybernetic component, detects, and decrypts the information, and while it can never be absolutely precise, it can get very close to that.

Therefore, you have Shepard's personality in tact.

Happy now? I am not.

I don't want such a watered down explanation in my sci-fi because someone can't maintain their suspense of disbelief in 90% of sci-fi and decides to complain about it in a forum.

heart attack of fiction

You need to read more...everything.

[Iakus]

Lady Olivia wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shepard gets to ask EDI about the quantum entanglement device, and EDI answers.

Sorry if this is a bit out of context, but EDI can answer this because quantum entanglement is sort of for real.

Perhaps the difference in the level of detail between LP and other "magic" elements comes from having a good scientific advisor for physics (astronomy, not so much), and biology/medicine.

And people do get revived after "death" if done quickly enough.  Though as Destroy Raiden pointed out, there are potentially severe complications that go with revival after only twenty minutes..  All we are asking is to insert the space magic that overcame that complication.  Quantum Entanglement may sort of exist, but I doubt we can use it to communicate across a room, let alone a galaxy 

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Nope.

If the BioWare writers had said
that's what happened, okay, fine. In fact, I would love to hear they
somehow acquired Alliance brain scans and somehow uploaded the patterns back
into the brain, or that they installed a quantum bluebox with those patterns.
Something, anything. We get zero. Zip. Nada.

The magic rock only
exists if the writers say it exists.

Brain scans are simple enough:  Dr Chakwas.  She scanned Shepard's brain after the beacon incident on Eden Prime.  Assuming she did so before leaving the Alliance, I'm sure she could get copies of a dead former patient of hers and bring them to Cerberus.

Finding a way to upload patterns would be the "magic rock" that we'd have to see of course.

[Iakus]

Mesina2 wrote...

Only 3 people, as far we know, can know anything about Lazarus Project.

Miranda, Jacob and Illusive Man.

We already know that Miranda and Jacob know nothing more then we know, while Illusive Man is, well, elusive.
And I think you'll care more about why is he doing all that stuff in ME3 then what was done in Lazarus Project.


Also it's a question if anything is saved from Lazarus Project or even that either Alliance or Turian Hierarchy found it.

Or if there's anything to the Lazarus Project that the Illusive Man could make use of or exploit in ME3.

Anyone remember what the Glorious Strategist did to ensure victory over the Spirit Monk? 

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...And people do get revived after "death" if done quickly enough.  Though as Destroy Raiden pointed out, there are potentially severe complications that go with revival after only twenty minutes..  All we are asking is to insert the space magic that overcame that complication.  Quantum Entanglement may sort of exist, but I doubt we can use it to communicate across a room, let alone a galaxy 

Change the Element X with Element Y, the community will love this sure.

Both still don't get an explanation, and the community can feel free to selectively hate that as well. Cool.

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...In hopes that this will somehow end up as an intelligent conversation and not remain the "Yes, but x", "But, x is y", "Yes, but x"
Tell me what happens during a relay cutscene. The mass of an object is lowered?
Good, during the LP cutscene, Shepard is resurrected.
The difference is, that for all you know, without a codex entry, relays may as well be supposed to accelerate objects to FTL velocities.

If I'm boring you, we can stop the debate at any time. &nbsp;Otherwise, I'll ask you to dial back on the snark a bit.
As to your question: &nbsp;A mass relay "creates corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations sepearated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives."
During the cutscenes, I see the relay being activated and the Normandy is sent down that corridor. &nbsp;The ship wasn't accelerated, it's being sent through something that sounds suspiciously like a Stargate-style wormhole.
For the neuron, for all I know, it could be receiving a drug treatment, or being repaired with nanomachines, or getting some funky radiation treatment, &nbsp;or anything, &nbsp;I don't know what's happening. &nbsp;The neuron is reviving but how? &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;WTF?&nbsp;

Even if somehow you were right, and they were less important than the LP, and even if they were breakthroughs and not established technolodgies, that still doesn't stop them from being magic rocks.
Prove me wrong.

Doesn't stop them from being magic rocks. &nbsp;It stops them from being magic rocks pertinent to this discussion. &nbsp;The reason we focus on this one magic rock here is it was the rock that brought Shepard back to life, something the game and the developers made a Big Deal about, then promptly dropped like it was on fire. &nbsp; &nbsp;
We create enough walls of text without dragging asari biology into the mix&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But go ahead and make a thread about any of the other topics you dislike. &nbsp;I'd like to hear some thoughts about omni-gel.

Yeah, in case you haven't noticed it, we have brought up element X a while ago. Element X is the reason that LP is not contemporary science and why it is a &nbsp;breakthrough.
And yeah, this paradox applies to every sci-fi plot point.
And yet I don't see you complaining to Verne about not explaining why he hasn't invented submarines yet, or Wells because he has yet to launch a military campaign from Mars, with futuristic looking war machines that shoot beams of unknown energy. And guess what, Wells was a science teacher, in his time.

Most science fiction at least tells you how Element X is supposed to go about doing what it does (Verne, I believe, did that).  "Here it is, but we can't tell you what it is exactly" is generally restricted to "Sufficiently Advanced" technology.  Or Star Trek.  Or invaders from Mars.

So, what is this element X? Well, I'd love to tell you, but you see, I'd kind of rather publish a book on it instead and be regarded as the most influential phycist of all times, without even being a phycist.

Or you could, you know, make something up.  I won't tell anyone.

Err, you were never talking about this.

You were talking about other parts of the brain being hypothetically spreading even more damage, somehow.

Umm, I was talking about brain cells starving from lack of oxygen throughout the entire brain.  The cells don't just die off one section at a time, they die all over the place as they lose nutrients or suffer from toxin buildups (stuff any basic first aid course can tell you, not exactly advanced science).  I don't know where you got "brain blows fuse" from in all that..

And yet you just used the term "biosynthetic fusion" ironically a few posts, back no?

Indeed I did, got it from a log on the Lazarus Station that they were using that to help rebuild Shepard.  Yeah that's about all the context it had.  Could have been an artificial hip for all we know.  Actually, given the way Shepard runs, that's entirely possible 

And that was done with...?

The brain...working? They show that? Therefore it works?

What works?  What brought the neuron back?  The Lazarus Project can be the what or the how, but not both.

[Lady Olivia]

Phaedon wrote...

Zero.

No protons.

No electrons.

Only neutrons.

Is that from the codex? Or stated/implied in the books and games? Or is it your interpretation?