337 réponses à ce sujet

[archurban]

that project is possibly acquired through a part of reaper technology. TIM got effect on himself after being captivating by Turians. so he wanted to experiment it to another human to prove something. so Shepard was a perfect example after he died. that's why Shepard have ability to defeat reapers even he doesn't know his body a part of technology inside. I guess you doubt what I explain. but it's obvious. otherwise there is no way how Illusive man can help reapers to destroy all humanity.

[Sable Phoenix]

Phaedon wrote...

You need to read more...everything.

And with that ad hominem attack, we're finished.  I've read voraciously ever since I learned how.  I've read everything from fiction to historical texts to biographies to textbooks to encyclopedias, just for fun.  I've read thousands of books in my lifetime.  I know a good story when I see one.  You obviously do not.  Given your utter lack of reading comprehension when it comes to actually debating my points, I can't even continue this on a level playing field.  Have fun in your ignorance.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:19 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Zero.

No protons.

No electrons.

Only neutrons.

Is that from the codex? Or stated/implied in the books and games? Or is it your interpretation?

It's only his interpretation based on the codex entry which states that Element Zero has an atomic mass of 0.  It's a reasonable assumption, but it's still an assumption.  It's never stated directly in-game.  It's not terribly relevant to this discussion, as much as he would like to make it so.  We don't really know what Eezo is.  We just know that, in the Mass Effect universe, it exists and allows all kinds of fun space magic to occur.

What he can't seem to grasp is that we don't have a similar macguffin to hang the Lazarus Project on.  Eezo is unique in the universe; cybernetics and cellular regeneration are not.  We need something else, a medical Eezo, if you will, to make the Lazarus Project believable.

[Crackseed]

We don't need anything "different" to make the LP believable. If you're content with accepting things like Mass Effect fields, FTL speeds, omni-gel/medi-gel and all the other "imagination stretching" things brought in the ME universe, the Lazarus Project is hardly a stretch of imagination tacked ontop of this. It is entirely possible the human brain retains everything that defines a given human even after death - combined with the fact that Shep was in a cold environment before recovery [landing on the planet that is] it's entirely reasonable and explicable within the confines established in the universe.

I mean hell, they could have just said they pumped him full of medi-gel/omni-gel for 2 years and VOILA! You seem to be looking for a magical answer that you'll never find because frankly, in this day and age what we know of the human brain and body means the only way this stuff makes any sense is to file it under "Science Fiction" with a dash of real science thrown in where applicable.

Edit: Hell, the Reapers and their creation/implcations/lore alone should be making your mind melt way more then Shepard's return to life via the LP.

Modifié par crackseed, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:30 .

[morrie23]

Just a quick note, something with an atomic mass of zero would not contain anything, no protons, electrons or neutrons, as they all contribute to an elements atomic mass (if you go by current IUPAC definitions). Unless you mean atomic number, which is the number of protons, so eezo could be neutrons only.  Not particularly relevant to the present discussion, nvm.

Modifié par morrie23, 06 juillet 2011 - 12:32 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Samurai_Smartie wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

[...]
EDIT: Samurai_smartie watch the language telling some one to F-off because you don't like an anime's way of handling death and revival is by no means grounds for course language.

Thats totally not what i meant.
I ment to (rather rudely i admit) interrupt Fhaileas line of thought cause that leads to a philosophical debate of epic proportions which doesnt belong here.


PS:
I still wonder how Sheps body managed to survive planetfall just with a standard N7 armor. Alchera has -22° surface temp, but a fairly standard athmosphere and gravity well. So how exactly did Shep not burn up?
Theres something to ponder about...

PPS:

This is the internet. Stop being babies about the f-word.

There are two camps for shep died

one is they somehow made it via sheilds, or slow decent, or any number of things including he got picked up before planet reentry so he never burnt up.

the second one goes with in reality that the body wouldn't have made it or it was very badly damaged.

I'm in the camp that says he didn't he would've been dust if this happend in life but BW says other wise so that's what we have.

As far as your bad mouthing if we give it a handwaive someone else will start bad mouthing people they don't like and before you know it its a contest of who can insult who more rather then us having a civil debate, theories, or discussions on the Lproject and I don't want this thread getting closed because people can't self regulate. So disagree if you like but don't tell people to f-off or other such thing.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 06 juillet 2011 - 12:52 .

[Crackseed]

Here, this should explain it perfectly!

http://fc08.devianta...nna-d36x8lb.jpg

<.< Haha

[Lady Olivia]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Lady Olivia wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Zero.

No protons.

No electrons.

Only neutrons.

Is that from the codex? Or stated/implied in the books and games? Or is it your interpretation?

It's only his interpretation based on the codex entry which states that Element Zero has an atomic mass of 0.  It's a reasonable assumption, but it's still an assumption.  It's never stated directly in-game.  It's not terribly relevant to this discussion, as much as he would like to make it so.  We don't really know what Eezo is.  We just know that, in the Mass Effect universe, it exists and allows all kinds of fun space magic to occur.

What he can't seem to grasp is that we don't have a similar macguffin to hang the Lazarus Project on.  Eezo is unique in the universe; cybernetics and cellular regeneration are not.  We need something else, a medical Eezo, if you will, to make the Lazarus Project believable.

Hmm. ME Wiki says the atomic number (the number of protons/electrons) of eezo is 0, it doesn't mention atomic mass (number of protons + neutrons, more or less). How'd I miss all this before? Huh. Anyway, pure neutron matter exists in real life, in neutron stars, and in fiction, it's apparently known as "neutronium." Doesn't necessarily mean eezo is neutronium, but it sounds suspiciously close. If that's it, I'd prefer not to have learned about it, because it hurts my suspension of disbelief. Something that's electrically neutral can't interact with an electric field.

Heh. Sorry for the digression. Can't promise it won't happen again.

Tell me, Sable Phoenix, what do you think about medigel? Also about krogan and vorcha regeneration? These are two kinds of existing medical magics in ME. I know there's been talk about this before, but it's a very long thread, so if you don't mind, I'd like to hear why you think these can't work as macguffins for LP.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think I heard there were experiments going on to replicate Asari mind talents we know the people at the Noveria base do research on all kinds of things if they somehow came up with the ability to reprogram human cells to self generate like the Krogan, pre tested it, and then if it worked put it into shep then that could be a way of explaining how quickly shep recovered from things like the 4 story drop with Spector girl.

I was also giving it a bit of thought last night whose to say that back in ME Chakwas didn't scan shep and copy the brain patterns and memories into a grey boxy in the room? If the Alliance made a standard protocol stating that all unconscious marines would have grey box back ups just incase they get brain damage or die not long after. If they did this that could be how shep gets his memories back everytime he ended up knocked out backups were made and then when he died Tim got ahold of it and put it in shep.

[Crackseed]

It's plausible but I think the point remains there are some things intentionally left vague, most likely because it adds an air of secrecy/mystery to the whole bit and also because they may not have had a 100% full fledged lore explanation for it w/o giving an overall "His body was intact, they used some incredibly advanced tech, possibly Reaper and restored full physical and mental capabilities" reasoning. If they end up giving the LP some closure with a more in-depth look in retrospect, it certainly couldn't hurt

[Sable Phoenix]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Tell me, Sable Phoenix, what do you think about medigel? Also about krogan and vorcha regeneration? These are two kinds of existing medical magics in ME. I know there's been talk about this before, but it's a very long thread, so if you don't mind, I'd like to hear why you think these can't work as macguffins for LP.

Medigel is just a very advanced version of currently-existing synthetic skin, produced genetically engineered bacteria (hence the technical violation against Council genetic manipulation laws).  Nothing too difficult to accept there.

Krogan regeneration is partly because they have so many backup body systems, and since even with this, they don't regrow limbs, internal organs, or even partial brain destruction like an axolotl can, I don't find them to be too outlandish.  And since vorcha are described as sapient planarians, they don't particularly bother me either.  Both these earthly lifeforms can lose comparitively massive percentages of both critical and noncritical systems and still return to full function.

Why can't these be macguffins for the Lazarus Project?  Well first, nothing about them is mentioned.  The writers didn't explain it using these things, and again, since it's fiction, if the writers don't explain it, it doesn't exist.  Second, these aliens' regeneration powers can't reverse brain death.  Even the krogan redundant nervous system can't reverse brain death, as their codex entries make clear, since it describes dead krogan still attacking and biting up until "total somatic death".

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 06 juillet 2011 - 05:50 .

[Phaedon]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Zero.

No protons.

No electrons.

Only neutrons.

Is that from the codex? Or stated/implied in the books and games? Or is it your interpretation?

Atomic number is zero.

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Medigel is just a very advanced version of currently-existing synthetic skin, produced genetically engineered bacteria (hence the technical violation against Council genetic manipulation laws).  Nothing too difficult to accept there.

You should either read the books or the wiki, because you couldn't be more wrong.

[Phaedon]

[quote]iakus wrote...
If I'm boring you, we can stop the debate at any time. &nbsp;Otherwise, I'll ask you to dial back on the snark a bit.[/quote]
Or perhaps your arguments should consist of more than, "Yes, but you have a magic rock for that, I don't" in response to me saying that no magic rock exists for other kinds of magic as well, before calling me non-constructive.


[quote]As to your question: &nbsp;A mass relay "creates corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations sepearated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives."
During the cutscenes, I see the relay being activated and the Normandy is sent down that corridor. &nbsp;The ship wasn't accelerated, it's being sent through something that sounds suspiciously like a Stargate-style wormhole.[/quote]
You can see that the ship isn't accelerated?

I find that hard to believe, especially when in fact the ship is accelerated a few moments before it disappears, hence making it a very likely conclusion based on the cutscene.

[quote]For the neuron, for all I know, it could be receiving a drug treatment, or being repaired with nanomachines, or getting some funky radiation treatment, &nbsp;or anything, &nbsp;I don't know what's happening. &nbsp;The neuron is reviving but how? &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;WTF?&nbsp;[/quote]
I have been talking about there being an element x that can't be explained and your response is "But what is it?"

To make matters worse, this has been happenning since the beginning of the argument, and considering that you have nothing (new or otherwise) to say in this part of your post, but expressing admiration about the realization that ever sci-fi element has an element x to be plausible, I think I'll disregard it unless you bring something new to the table.

"But if BioWare could explain it, then it wouldn't be sci-fi right? There's always an Element X."
"Yes, but how does it work?"
"With the element X, which can't be described."
"Yeah, but what is this Element X which can't be described, I want EDI to describe it to me."

Just to show what you are doing there.

[quote]Even if somehow you were right, and they were less important than the LP, and even if they were breakthroughs and not established technolodgies, that still doesn't stop them from being magic rocks.
Prove me wrong.[/quote]
Doesn't stop them from being magic rocks. &nbsp;It stops them from being magic rocks pertinent to this discussion.[/quote]
No, they are perfectly pertinent to this discussion, because they are sci-fi elements with no explanation. In fact, no sci-fi element in this universe has an explanation. Should you even somehow prove that "Death is totally more special than the natural world", that still doesn't make resurrection not a sci-fi element, and definitely not worthy of extra explanation...




....which can't even been given to us.


[quote]The reason we focus on this one magic rock here is it was the rock that brought Shepard back to life, something the game and the developers made a Big Deal about, then promptly dropped like it was on fire.[/quote]
-Do you agree that any sci-fi element can't have a full explanation?
-Do you agree that the Lazarus Project is a sci-fi element?-Do you agree that there have been many LPs throughout the history of sci-fi storytelling and that none of them had a full explanation?
And before you say that you don't want a full, but a limited explanation, you are contradicting yourself. You have been given a limited explanation, a much more detailed one than most aspects of the universe.
And before you say that the "crux" is Shepard's brain and that it is not explained as much as the others, well, guess what, maybe it's the part that can't be explained, and that's why the explanation on it is only limited.

[quote[We create enough walls of text without dragging asari biology into the mix&nbsp;:P&nbsp;&nbsp;But go ahead and make a thread about any of the other topics you dislike. &nbsp;I'd like to hear some thoughts about omni-gel.[/quote]Wow. 
"Yeah, X may not be given a full explanation either, but go elsewhere to post it, Lazarus Project is totally different"
What a compelling argument. 

"Asari reproduction and evolution doesn't deserve additional explanation, because it isn't as special as the LP. And as you can see in my big rulebook of storytelling, whatever storytelling element is more important, requires a fuller explanation. By the way, I will be completely ignoring the mass effect or any sort of gels, or even the lore itself who have even worse an explanation, and are yet where the game got it's name from, but I'll rename it to "asari biology" instead."
[quote]
Most science fiction at least tells you how Element X is supposed to go about doing what it does (Verne, I believe, did that).  "Here it is, but we can't tell you what it is exactly" is generally restricted to "Sufficiently Advanced" technology.  Or Star Trek.  Or invaders from Mars.[/quote]You need to refresh your memory. Because there are entire paragraphs in several sci-fi books that with phenomenons that we have no idea how they are caused.
[quote]Or you could, you know, make something up.  I won't tell anyone.[/quote]The make something up argument doesn't exactly make sense, especially here. There isn't any way to "make something up" that doesn't contradict what you have said already.


[quote]Umm, I was talking about brain cells starving from lack of oxygen throughout the entire brain.  The cells don't just die off one section at a time, they die all over the place as they lose nutrients or suffer from toxin buildups (stuff any basic first aid course can tell you, not exactly advanced science).  I don't know where you got "brain blows fuse" from in all that..[/quote]Well, it certainly didn't start from there. 

[quote]Indeed I did, got it from a log on the Lazarus Station that they were using that to help rebuild Shepard.  Yeah that's about all the context it had.  Could have been an artificial hip for all we know.  Actually, given the way Shepard runs, that's entirely possible [/quote]And yet, it does answer to your argument. You never asked for more context, as far as I remember. You wanted BioWare to make things up like devices that conduct cellular surgery.

[quote]What works?  What brought the neuron back?  The Lazarus Project can be the what or the how, but not both.[/quote]The Lazarus Project is what caused it. Data is transferred from a neuron to another, Shepard at this point is not brain dead anymore. 

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

And with that ad hominem attack, we're finished.  I've read voraciously ever since I learned how.  I've read everything from fiction to historical texts to biographies to textbooks to encyclopedias, just for fun.  I've read thousands of books in my lifetime.  I know a good story when I see one.  You obviously do not.  Given your utter lack of reading comprehension when it comes to actually debating my points, I can't even continue this on a level playing field.  Have fun in your ignorance.

You seem to have a very selective long-term memory then.

Not only do you jump at the ressurection concept, but you attack anything that doesn't have a full explanation attached to it.

For the resurrection concept try these:
http://tvtropes.org/...in/DeathIsCheap

For not having a full explanation, read a sci-fi book.

Sable Phoenix wrote...

It's only his interpretation based on the codex entry which states that Element Zero has an atomic mass of 0.  It's a reasonable assumption, but it's still an assumption.  It's never stated directly in-game.  It's not terribly relevant to this discussion, as much as he would like to make it so.  We don't really know what Eezo is.  We just know that, in the Mass Effect universe, it exists and allows all kinds of fun space magic to occur.

What he can't seem to grasp is that we don't have a similar macguffin to hang the Lazarus Project on.  Eezo is unique in the universe; cybernetics and cellular regeneration are not.  We need something else, a medical Eezo, if you will, to make the Lazarus Project believable.

Do explain as to how eezo is a compound.

Or is it actually made by unknown particles that somehow interact with electricity differently? And in that case, wouldn't these be the magic particle that you are looking for, thus rendering element zero and mass effect into unexplained garbage?

Because that you would certainly be the only new kind of magic that we have on the MEverse, beside Eezo, nothing else exists there, not at all.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .

[Lady Olivia]

Phaedon wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Medigel is just a very advanced version of currently-existing synthetic skin, produced genetically engineered bacteria (hence the technical violation against Council genetic manipulation laws).  Nothing too difficult to accept there.

You should either read the books or the wiki, because you couldn't be more wrong.

That's a bit heavy-handed. The wiki says nothing about what the medigel is, only how it works. And the only specific thing I can remember from the books is that, when injected with a big dose, you go unconscious. The wiki doesn't mention this mode of usage at all. Maybe you know of other sources?

And none of it really contradicts what Sable said. Where does your info come from, Sable?

I'm starting to think I'm terribly uninformed.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 06 juillet 2011 - 06:43 .

[Phaedon]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Medigel is just a very advanced version of currently-existing synthetic skin, produced genetically engineered bacteria (hence the technical violation against Council genetic manipulation laws).  Nothing too difficult to accept there.

You should either read the books or the wiki, because you couldn't be more wrong.

That's a bit heavy-handed. The wiki says nothing about what the medigel is, only how it works. And the only specific thing I can remember from the books is that, when injected with a big dose, you go unconscious. The wiki doesn't mention this mode of usage at all. Maybe you know of other sources?

And none of it really contradicts what Sable said. Where does your info come from, Sable?

I'm starting to think I'm terribly uninformed.

Eh, I just hate when people act as if they know everything. Though " an anaesthetic and clotting agent" makes it being just synthetic skin impossible.

For starters, it can heal broken bones as well, if I remember correctly.

It is actually made up of nanobots, (and other materials which the nanobots use presumably), as Drew says on Retribution.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 juillet 2011 - 06:55 .

[Lady Olivia]

Phaedon wrote...

It is actually made up of nanobots, (and other materials which the nanobots use presumably), as Drew says on Retribution.

Huh. Don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it. In any case, I didn't really think of it as of "synthetic skin" either, more as of something that can be applied externaly, ingested, injected, anything really. I think it's one of the most magical magics in MEverse.

So how about this scenario:

Shepard falls from the sky. Dies of hypoxia. Alchera's atmosphere is thinner than the Earth's, but its surfacte gravity is lower, so the conditions of the fall are more or less the same. The body wouldn't burn up. The body might suffer some degree of vacuum exposure, but perhaps not the extreme kind (let's pretend the battle took place in the upper layers of the atmosphere for the sake of argument). The body hits the ground at a terminal velocity of some 200 km/h (~120 mph for all you non-metric people). That's like a head-on collision in a speeding car. But Shepard has his hard suit and kinetic barriers, so the body doesn't necessarily have to, like, explode, or be turned to pulp. Then, the body is deep-frozen, perhaps some minutes after the actual death took place.

Some weeks later, the body is recovered. It's frozen and remains so, presumably, until Miri warms it up (hehe I'm so funny). They bring Shepard back to life and put him into a coma right away, then work on the body for two years.

But it's not like he's been dead for two years; clinically, he's been dead only for the duration of the fall.

For me, this is a good enough framework for resurrection, and doesn't require any special kind of magic. The severity of damage the body took is offset by the funds and the time invested into the project.

I know what's going to happen now; everybody will jump at me for making them repeat their contra-arguments. If too tired, just ignore me, I'm ok with that.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 06 juillet 2011 - 07:21 .

[Phaedon]

That is close to my theory.

I'd emphasize on the shields more,however, they absorb all damage, even if they last for a single milisecond. And we do know how Shepard's body ended up. Or at least his/her armour.

Broken in big pieces. The helmet is intact, while the parts that Liara and Legion have are also pretty big. Not sure about being frozen. It looks like the suits don't transfer heat that much.

[Lady Olivia]

Phaedon wrote...

Not sure about being frozen. It looks like the suits don't transfer heat that much.

Ugh. If the suit kept up body temperature, then the body would fall apart very badly very quickly. I prefer to think the suit died on impact (after serving its purpose). Freezing would go a long way to solve the "state of the body" issues.

[Phaedon]

Not necessarily, the temperature of Alchera is well below zero, and the brain is definitely not one of the first organs to decay.

[Il Divo]

I suppose this would be a bad time to ask whether we can all just get along?

[Phaedon]

Il Divo wrote...

I suppose this would be a bad time to ask whether we can all just get along?

You do not ask for truce in BSN, stranger.

Kidding aside, I feel that the constant recycling of arguments (which were  a response to their own counter-arguments which will also be their answers) is insulting for both sides.

I have accepted the fact that just like the thermal clips arguments, this debate was started because some people hated the plot device (and not the explanation by itself, or else they'd hate the whole MEverse), and that's why the debate keeps going on and will not stop.

Just like people will continue to complain about sexism, retcons and plotholes.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 juillet 2011 - 08:02 .

[pablodurando]

I'd prefer for the Lazarus project to be kept under wraps. If Bioware creates a long drawn out explanation for it then chances are that it will contradict studies and experiments in biology and it would ruin the effect of Mass Effect to some degree, at least for me. If they could pull something off though where they could fit inside the narrow field of biology then I would support that.

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

I suppose this would be a bad time to ask whether we can all just get along?

You do not ask for truce in BSN, stranger.

Perhaps not, but there are some fights that just aren't worth winning.

Let's face it, you have no idea why some people, like me, think the Lazarus Project deserves more of an explanation.  And I cannot fathom how some people are so able to accept it at face value.  Not a knock on you, simply a matter of two different perspectives.

We've both created walls of text which I personally doubt anyone besides ourselves and maybe Destroy Raiden and Lady Olivia might have actually read, gone around in circles, and gotten nowhere.  Your posts are starting to get snarky and hostile.  I'm having to bite back my words more and more frequently.  So before this goes somewhere we'll both regret, I'm going to drop it and go back to shorter posts speculating on what might be plausible, in-game explanations for the secrets behind the Lazarus Project.  This isn't fun anymore.