337 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Shepard falls from the sky. Dies of hypoxia. Alchera's atmosphere is thinner than the Earth's, but its surfacte gravity is lower, so the conditions of the fall are more or less the same. The body wouldn't burn up. The body might suffer some degree of vacuum exposure, but perhaps not the extreme kind (let's pretend the battle took place in the upper layers of the atmosphere for the sake of argument). The body hits the ground at a terminal velocity of some 200 km/h (~120 mph for all you non-metric people). That's like a head-on collision in a speeding car. But Shepard has his hard suit and kinetic barriers, so the body doesn't necessarily have to, like, explode, or be turned to pulp. Then, the body is deep-frozen, perhaps some minutes after the actual death took place.

Some weeks later, the body is recovered. It's frozen and remains so, presumably, until Miri warms it up (hehe I'm so funny). They bring Shepard back to life and put him into a coma right away, then work on the body for two years.

But it's not like he's been dead for two years; clinically, he's been dead only for the duration of the fall.

For me, this is a good enough framework for resurrection, and doesn't require any special kind of magic. The severity of damage the body took is offset by the funds and the time invested into the project.

I know what's going to happen now; everybody will jump at me for making them repeat their contra-arguments. If too tired, just ignore me, I'm ok with that.

I don't know the physics of bodies landing at terminal velocity (well, aside from what the Mythbusters do to Buster) particularly when mass effect fields might enter the equation.  So I'm willing to go along with the body remains more or less intact.

Tissue damage is a bigger problem.  Cells don't do well in freezing temperature.  Ice crystals tend to shred them (water expands when frozen, and since our cells are mostly water...)  Now if it turns out that combat hardsuits can inject their wearer's with some sort of nontoxic antifreeze in the event of catastrophic impact with an icy planet, that might explain things 

While I can believe that some sort of stasis pod might be used to preserve Shepard's corpse once it was found, significant damage would have already taken place.  This is backed up by Miranda's journal entry that the damage to Shepard was "worse than expected" due to "prolonged vacuum exposure and subzero temperatures"  She actually seemed to be in doubt that the Lazarus Project would work at that point.

[Praetor Knight]

iakus wrote...

Tissue damage is a bigger problem.  Cells don't do well in freezing temperature.  Ice crystals tend to shred them (water expands when frozen, and since our cells are mostly water...)  Now if it turns out that combat hardsuits can inject their wearer's with some sort of nontoxic antifreeze in the event of catastrophic impact with an icy planet, that might explain things 

It's possible that there are cryoprotectants that are being used in either the medi-gel or the body armor itself.

or maybe through the gene therapy that Alliance personnel get, Shepard's cells could be able to resist getting damaged from such temperatures also.

[Lady Olivia]

iakus wrote...

Tissue damage is a bigger problem.  Cells don't do well in freezing temperature.  Ice crystals tend to shred them (water expands when frozen, and since our cells are mostly water...)  Now if it turns out that combat hardsuits can inject their wearer's with some sort of nontoxic antifreeze in the event of catastrophic impact with an icy planet, that might explain things 

While I can believe that some sort of stasis pod might be used to preserve Shepard's corpse once it was found, significant damage would have already taken place.  This is backed up by Miranda's journal entry that the damage to Shepard was "worse than expected" due to "prolonged vacuum exposure and subzero temperatures"  She actually seemed to be in doubt that the Lazarus Project would work at that point.

Ok, I admit that freezing isn't a plus like I wanted it to be.

It just doesn't bother me. I mean, the lack of a detailed, reasonable explanation. I'm perfectly happy to rationalize it for myself and need no extras from the game. What does bother me, is that LP is... melodramatic. I wish it hadn't been used, I wish they had invented some other mechanism to "reset" Shepard for act 2. But even so, I think there are larger problems with ME. If I could choose the things to be explained in ME3, LP wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:23 .

[lumen11]

I just can't believe that TIM wouldn't have some fail safe built into Shepherd to protect his investment, even if he says he didn't.

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
Perhaps not, but there are some fights that just aren't worth winning.

Let's face it, you have no idea why some people, like me, think the Lazarus Project deserves more of an explanation.  And I cannot fathom how some people are so able to accept it at face value.  Not a knock on you, simply a matter of two different perspectives.

We've both created walls of text which I personally doubt anyone besides ourselves and maybe Destroy Raiden and Lady Olivia might have actually read, gone around in circles, and gotten nowhere.  Your posts are starting to get snarky and hostile.  I'm having to bite back my words more and more frequently.  So before this goes somewhere we'll both regret, I'm going to drop it and go back to shorter posts speculating on what might be plausible, in-game explanations for the secrets behind the Lazarus Project.  This isn't fun anymore.

Right. Well in any case, I am not the only one to blame for the walls of text and going nowhere anyway. And why every debate with you has to end with a "this is not fun anymore" or stalemate, I don't know. Maybe it's just me.

There are other bigger themes that were never explained better. Forget the various gels and alien biology. Just consider how little we know about the mass effect itself.

I wouldn't have a problem with a Codex entry, and I don't think that it wouldn't fit in ME3, but you won't be getting anything new. Because unless BioWare wants to stick to cybernetics somehow recovering data by themselves, they can't explain anything further.

iakus wrote...

Tissue damage is a bigger problem.  Cells don't do well in freezing temperature.  Ice crystals tend to shred them (water expands when frozen, and since our cells are mostly water...)  Now if it turns out that combat hardsuits can inject their wearer's with some sort of nontoxic antifreeze in the event of catastrophic impact with an icy planet, that might explain things 

That's right. That's why I prefer to only talk about the brain decay and no other organ. If a single part of the body that was constructed (relatively) from scratch and not from the old one, it's definitely the soft tissue.

[Iakus]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Ok, I admit that freezing isn't a plus like I wanted it to be.

It just doesn't bother me. I mean, the lack of a detailed, reasonable explanation. I'm perfectly happy to rationalize it for myself and need no extras from the game. What does bother me, is that LP is... melodramatic. I wish it hadn't been used, I wish they had invented some other mechanism to "reset" Shepard for act 2. But even so, I think there are larger problems with ME. If I could choose the things to be explained in ME3, LP wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list.

Definitely overly dramatic and "Xtreme" 

Perhaps part of the desire for an explanation is, if there turns out to be one, then maybe there will also be a reason for why Bioware went that route to begin with.  Maybe Shepard's death will turn out to be a necessary part of the story, and the Lazarus Project will have an important role to play in ME3.  Perhaps the Reapers help Cerberus mass-produce it, and Shepard has to find a way to shut it down for good.  Or TIM planted a Deus Ex-style killswitch in Shepard's cybernetics.  Maybe the Illusive Man foresaw Cerberus being taken over and put something in Shepard that can stop them.  Something that will make Shepard have to explore the Lazarus Project more in depth to save the galaxy.

Or maybe it's all wishful thinking.

[MadLaughter]

I had no problems with the lazarus project but even if I did...this just seems like a waste of time for bioware. The series needs to go forwards, not backwards.

[shaneofthedead]

I really want to know what that thing is on Shep's Spine in the "rebuilding shepard" scene.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think those are cybernetics they would help transmit signals along the spine.

[KevShep]

I have posted this on other topics reguarding Shepards weird return. I keep posting this because Ive not seen anyone talk about this nor have I seen anyone notice this.......
He was brought back to life by cerberus (who works for the reapers). Look at Shepards scars. Look at the part in the middle(in between the red where the scar is not healed) of his scars...there a yellowish color. The human goo at the collector base is the same color. Even when Harbringer takes control of a collector a color that looks the same as shepards scars and the goo ingulf that collector. This could be why the more renegade you get the more you turn into a reaper. After all cerberus is working for the reapers so helping cerberus(renegade) could be helping the reapers instead. This might anwser alot...or not.

[Destroy Raiden_]

That is a neat observation but you're or more likely have the potential of reaper tech inside you. Shep isn't exactly turning reaper he's just got the tech in him like EDI confirms she does that can make both of them susceptible to reaper or collector control like the collectors were.

That is a good pickup though on the color perhapse there is a connection. In the cut scene when they're bringing you back blue liquid is used one poster suggested perhapse they used the husk beacon TIM encountered in one of the books to aid in the reanimation process sense of all things we do know husk spikes bring back the dead and the beacons should in theory do the same.

One more thing to add when shep got hacked by David and the AI in overlord he had a yellow orange shock surrounding his body this was (to me anyway) the cue that shep's cybernetics where being attacked and him having control assumed over him by David.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 28 juillet 2011 - 12:25 .

[KevShep]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

That is a neat observation but you're or more likely have the potential of reaper tech inside you. Shep isn't exactly turning reaper he's just got the tech in him like EDI confirms she does that can make both of them susceptible to reaper or collector control like the collectors were.

That is a good pickup though on the color perhapse there is a connection. In the cut scene when they're bringing you back blue liquid is used one poster suggested perhapse they used the husk beacon TIM encountered in one of the books to aid in the reanimation process sense of all things we do know husk spikes bring back the dead and the beacons should in theory do the same.

One more thing to add when shep got hacked by David and the AI in overlord he had a yellow orange shock surrounding his body this was (to me anyway) the cue that shep's cybernetics where being attacked and him having control assumed over him by David.

I forgot about overlord! He is being controled by his cybernetics. David could maniputate electronics.

I dont really know if he is actually turning reaper, but I noticed also that what ever that yellow stuff is used for it is also going to bring that human reaper to life as well as shepard. This might be the connection that brings shepard to life like the reaper. I dont know if thats true but Iam just guessing at this point.

Modifié par KevShep, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:52 .

[genaroneto]

Prothean Beacon x Lazarus Project

Modifié par genaroneto, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:44 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

The more links they can combine together into the project the better for me.

[SanDiego]

Well, maybe I'm a little late for the main flamefest about Lazarus Project but as a med student the idea of 'ressurecting' someone set me on several thinking tracks and I think it might not be impossible, considering the technology. Let us begin.

When blasted out Shepard is suited for EVA. And has a military-grade hardsuit which includes all the heavy armouring, kinetic barriers and medi-gel conduits. He gets hit by a stray piece of debris piercing his suit. He quickly begins suffering from hypoxia and hypothermia. His hardsuit injects some kind of cryoprotectant in his bloodstream to prevent crystals from tearing up his cell membranes. Already unconscious he hits the ground. His armour prevents him/her from splattering all over the impact zone, but the concussion is massive enough to break his bones and badly mangle his internal organs. His brain and spinal cord escape relatively unscathed save for, let's say, third-grade concussion and mild contusion in occipital lobe (this implies some minor injury from countre-coup in frontal lobe, but it would be smaller). His body cools, dessicates and for all purposes enters state of clinical death.

Body is discovered unspecified period of time later - but it could well be several days or even weeks given the level of cryogenic preservation and pseudo mummification (see Ötzi) and is immediately hooked up on some kind of life-support thingy as seen in ME: Redemption. At the end of said comics, Miranda states that "[Shepard] may be too far gone" implying he/she didn't die yet - but not being far from it.

Body is brought to Lazarus site and slammed on operating table. In intro we can see several things happening - shattered bones being grafted back together (similar techniques exist today - we use mostly titanium, but complex fractures are handled similarly); body being re-hydrated (and possibly hooked on external circulation); mangled -but stil mostly intact- heart being either replaced or regenerated and started. What we do not see, but presume happened: installation of eye prosthetics; applying any upgrades Shepard had prior to his/her rendezvous with terminal velocity (i.e. biotic implant, muscular enhancements et cetera); reparation/replacement of damaged organs.

Somewhere along these lines Shepard awakens and suffers a panic attack, is sedated and slips back to coma. That would suggest that the brain functions came back - third-grade concussion has circa three months recuperation period and the mild contusion could explain for the confusion and panic.

Shepard is now almost healed, but all his/her wounds are still fresh and his body is still combating with the prolonged hypoxia/hypothermia. Even though he has some enhancements inside that help combat it, his/her body aches like hell. And this is roughly the time when Wilson set out on his journey to meet Miranda's bullet.

Hope you enjoyed reading and sorry for the necro.

[wetnasty]

KevShep wrote...

I have posted this on other topics reguarding Shepards weird return. I keep posting this because Ive not seen anyone talk about this nor have I seen anyone notice this.......
He was brought back to life by cerberus (who works for the reapers). Look at Shepards scars. Look at the part in the middle(in between the red where the scar is not healed) of his scars...there a yellowish color. The human goo at the collector base is the same color. Even when Harbringer takes control of a collector a color that looks the same as shepards scars and the goo ingulf that collector. This could be why the more renegade you get the more you turn into a reaper. After all cerberus is working for the reapers so helping cerberus(renegade) could be helping the reapers instead. This might anwser alot...or not.

Actually I just made a topic the other day with this exact topic...

http://social.biowar...3/index/8092989

And I'm sure I'm not the first

Modifié par wetnasty, 16 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

So to bump this thread and to add a bit more too it. There was a past discussion on amnesia and how did shep get his memories back at all? Some think they had Liara come back and push the shared memories into shep's mind but she says nothing on this. Another suggestion I heard in the past is thorian like stimuli was applied to the brain so shep's memories could be reactivated but we know from real world being dead after a minute causes brain damage shep was dead for 2 years and we don't know how much of that time was true death at best Liara spent several days looking for the cryo shep and that alone isn't good.

I also have this article that outlines some amnesia and how to treat it shep's potential amnesia would be physical sense he died it's interesting to note the article says " If the damage is severe enough them healing may not be possible" ezinearticles.com/

It also brings up the fact counseling would be useful be we never speak to Kelly? Should we get this option in 3?

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 29 août 2011 - 02:38 .

[Shotokanguy]

As always, a topic with an important issue (or at least one I have an opinion on) and it's too long to read all the responses.

Well, all I will say is that while it is science fiction and I don't see how they could come up with a good explanation, even explaining just part of the thing, the relative insignificance of the LP after the first act of the game is disappointing. As I'm sure several people have said in this topic, Shepard doesn't once stop to reflect on the fact that he died, and what that meant. Sure, stay away from religious stuff, but maybe give us a chance to express our wishes that we had remained dead? Or bring it into the Miranda romance? And it's strange that Shepard wouldn't ask how they did it.

It's a matter of exploring big ideas and themes, something Mass Effect needs to stand out. That was one big one that shouldn't have been glossed over.

[Shotokanguy]

genaroneto wrote...

Prothean Beacon x Lazarus Project

Wow, that is an interesting find. The first set isn't so interesting, but there's surely a similarity in the bottom two. It could very easily be nothing, but you never know. Good storytelling means never showing something that has no point.


Man, seriously, all this discussion of the series' plot lately is nuts. With the ME3 Dissertation, the small reveals of information we're getting...MAN do I hope ME3's plot brings everything together like...the most...brought together...thing...ever.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I wonder if interacting with more reaper beacons will disrupt shep's cybernetics and degrade them over time? We saw how Rho emitted an emp and shep went down from it will other reaper beacons do the same or worse?

[Iakus]

I'm taking encouragement in the tweet that the Lazarus Project will be mentioned again in ME3. Maybe we'll get some straight answers about it.

[Destroy Raiden_]

They tweeted recently on it? I missed it. I think they said they wanted to go after TIM in 3 too for me that'd be a great time to stumble upon the large data cache and download it to the ship for later viewing.

[Iakus]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

They tweeted recently on it? I missed it. I think they said they wanted to go after TIM in 3 too for me that'd be a great time to stumble upon the large data cache and download it to the ship for later viewing.

twitter.com/#%21/macwalterslives/status/100203535064498176

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

genaroneto wrote...

Prothean Beacon x Lazarus Project

Awesome find. Wonder if that is actually what they were going for or just an coincidence.