337 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Phoenix]

DCarter wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

DCarter wrote...

I'm no biologist but I've never seen this part of the plot as much of a stretch. We can already recreate some individual organs in real life. Flash forward 170 odd years and with the added bonus of interaction with lots of other advanced species and I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to recreate organic materials to a very specific degree with enough time and resources.

That's not the problem, the problem is not restoring the damaged brain cells either, the problem is that for now, we are unaware as to how to "turn the swich back on"

Electric currents wouldn't work? 

Not since Mary Shelley, no.

[Liec]

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

^ True, I half wonder Shep didn't have questions; who am I really? What am I? >.<

I bet he did have questions, but then he asked himself if he really wanted to know the details =P.

But yeah, there's still unanswered questions about how Shepard came back. I figure the "Luke, I am your father" type spoiler that one journalist mentioned on a magazine has something to do with Lazarus.

[Praetor Knight]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

At the very least it needs to be revealed how the hell the Lazarus Project was even possible. Given the entire technology level we've seen in the entire galaxy for two games, it shouldn't be. Yet it's just handwaved away as little more than "a wizard did it" despite being the greatest medical and technological achievement in the history of mankind. Shepard is the only person to be resurrected since, ostensibly, Jesus Christ, and the only one ever to be resurrected by non-mystical means, and nobody seems to think it's all that big of a deal. "Oh, yeah, it cost a lot, but who cares, you're back! Let's go beat up the Reapers' flunkies!"

If the technology that allowed this to occur isn't explained, to say nothing of the societal ramifications of such a massive advancement, the entirety of Mass Effect 2 will have been rendered a pointless side-trip in the real story of the Reaper invasion. The Lazarus Project better have some significance to the actual war against them or the second game might as well never have happened, because it did absolutely nothing else to advance the story at all.

Personally, I don't see how they can explain this without getting all mystical on us (probably one of the main reasons they chose to forget about it ten minutes after leaving Lazarus Station behind), unless the real Shepard actually did die irretrievably and the current one is an AI of some kind running on an organic version of a quantum bluebox.

I would guess that cloned organs and tissues were part of the process, I mean if Miranda exists according to what she tells Shepard, then it's possible in that regard right?

But we can also get a Ship of Theseus type question with bringing Shepard back. The concern goes to having Shepard return to consciousness (however that is explained), but is Shepard really the same as before what happened?

So the only way I figure that Shepard can be the same is that Shepard's skull remained intact, with little to no brain damage, otherwise we start getting metaphysical and mystical as you said.

And if the skull and brain were not intact and undamaged, then I'd figure Shep's personality could have been different and the whole project would have been a failure.

[JamieCOTC]

To be honest, I think most people are missing the point of the Lazarus Project. It's there to reset the game and for the player to have a cool way to bring his/her Shep back into the game or create a new one. Oh, and so they could have a big explosion in the beginning of the game. It's the rule of cool, nothing more. The same goes for the "trial."

[Phaedon]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
I would guess that cloned organs and tissues were part of the process, I mean if Miranda exists according to what she tells Shepard, then it's possible in that regard right?

But we can also get a Ship of Theseus type question with bringing Shepard back. The concern goes to having Shepard return to consciousness (however that is explained), but is Shepard really the same as before what happened?

So the only way I figure that Shepard can be the same is that Shepard's skull remained intact, with little to no brain damage, otherwise we start getting metaphysical and mystical as you said.

And if the skull and brain were not intact and undamaged, then I'd figure Shep's personality could have been different and the whole project would have been a failure.

I have my theory, if you are interested.

-First of all, re-entry. I don't see why everyone assumes that Shepard would burn up during it, there is nothing to indicate that the re-entry friction would be enough to have that effect. We do know that Alchera has an atmosphere of low density, too.

-The above can be proven by Shepard's helmet, armour and the interior of the Normandy not burning up. I assume that the exterior of the Normandy and the Mako would have some sort of ablative armour anyway.

-Shields absorb all kinetic energy. Even if they lasted for miliseconds, they may have been enough to absorb a lot of the damage. Evidence of that? The armour broke on big pieces (See: Helmet, Legion, Liara's Apartment)

-Being unconsious could have caused less soft tissue damage.

-Shepard's helmet is intact, therefore, the only type of injury possible on the brain seems to be a coup contrecoup injury.

I am sure there is more to it than that, I just can't remember anything else.

JamieCOTC wrote...

To be honest, I think most people are missing the point of the Lazarus Project. It's there to reset the game and for the player to have a cool way to bring his/her Shep back into the game or create a new one. Oh, and so they could have a big explosion in the beginning of the game. It's the rule of cool, nothing more. The same goes for the "trial."

Your are misinterpretating the rule of cool, it seems. It's nothing more than a textbook plot device to change conditions for the second act. ME is not the first one that does it, and it won't be the last.

Modifié par Phaedon, 25 juin 2011 - 09:21 .

[Shotokanguy]

Khayness wrote...

I just wish they allow Shepard to reflect on being dead for 2 years and being a quasi-cyborg more than "Oh, I was out for 2 years, let's kick some ass then!".

Pondering on transhumanism is a classic sci-fi cliché they sadly forgot to include.

Yes, this is an example I use often whenever debating ME2's failures, story wise.

It's a big deal to bring someone back from the dead - to use it as nothing more than a slight gameplay and plot device is kind of lame. No reflection on being dead, not even a hint as to how it was done...disappointing.

[Ieldra]

DCarter wrote...
I'm no biologist but I've never seen this part of the plot as much of a stretch. We can already recreate some individual organs in real life. Flash forward 170 odd years and with the added bonus of interaction with lots of other advanced species and I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to recreate organic materials to a very specific degree with enough time and resources.

The problem lies in restoring Shepard's memories. From the scenario we can conclude that very likely many brain cells have been destroyed. Even if you can reconstruct them, you cannot reconstruct the connections between them that made up Shepard's memories because there is no record of them. If Shepard didn't have something like a greybox, these memories would have been irretrievably lost.
If his memories have been reconstructed from other sources, then they are incomplete, and Shepard is not Shepard.

At the same time Sheppard's reaction to being reconstructed seems to be indifference which is rather unbelievable and i agree the social/technological ramifications (especially assuming the process could be refined) are underplayed.

Underplayed? They are never mentioned.... 

[Phaedon]

I still can't see why you guys would make a big deal out of dying, in the way that Shepard did. I mean, I am all for interesting plot points, but that one doesn't seem to offer that much.

There's deeper philosophical discussion that can emerge from working with Cerberus, than waking up after a small sleep.

The whole philosophy about death centres about our trip to death and the possibility of an afterlife. Waking up from death would make death seem underwhelming at best.

[Sable Phoenix]

JamieCOTC wrote...

To be honest, I think most people are missing the point of the Lazarus Project. It's there to reset the game and for the player to have a cool way to bring his/her Shep back into the game or create a new one. Oh, and so they could have a big explosion in the beginning of the game. It's the rule of cool, nothing more. The same goes for the "trial."

Yes, exactly.  However, if that is all that it remains by the time the third game is finished?  Then it becomes not just pointless but a glaring example of horrible writing.  I'm willing to accept that they let it sit there untouched for one game (although it's huge enough that it shouldn't have been) in order to resolve it during the following one, even though I think that is crediting Walters with way too much foresight.  But if it remains there untouched, it's a gaping plot hole so deep that it puts the Marianas Trench to shame.

[Praetor Knight]

@ Phaedon,

Yeah, I agree with that theory, I've had thoughts similar to what you bring up.

And the armor could also have been cut off of Shepard's Body so that it can be transported in that pod thingy (I can't remember exactly and I didn't read the comic.)


So with the potential head trauma, there is also a range of possible outcomes where even if Shepard does hit the helmet on rock or ice, the injury is not necessarily too severe, where the symptoms maybe be as mild as a concussion.

And here's a link on Brain Injury, that I thought was interesting and relevant.

[Phaedon]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
And here's a link on Brain Injury, that I thought was interesting and relevant.

Thanks for posting that, it's an interesting read and the comprehensive list of the effects of brain injury may be very helpful in future debates.

[Sable Phoenix]

Phaedon wrote...

I still can't see why you guys would make a big deal out of dying, in the way that Shepard did. I mean, I am all for interesting plot points, but that one doesn't seem to offer that much.

There's deeper philosophical discussion that can emerge from working with Cerberus, than waking up after a small sleep.

The whole philosophy about death centres about our trip to death and the possibility of an afterlife. Waking up from death would make death seem underwhelming at best.

This is why you miss the point.

It's not just a small sleep.  Shepard experienced brain death.  There is no way to restore higher cognitive wave patterns after ten minutes of total brain death, at most, to say nothing of the neuron pathways that store the memory, both conscious and subconscious, and define personality.  Shepard not only experienced brain death for weeks, but suffered such severe trauma that the body was unrecognizable.  Yet somehow, after only two years, not only is Shepard's body restored just the way it was, but Shepard gets up off the table not only with memories, language skills, motor skills, reflexes, and training intact, but doesn't have to spend any time in physical therapy to work the muscle tissue up to the point where this totally unused body can actually move.

Forget explaining all that, none of it is even justified.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 25 juin 2011 - 09:41 .

[Khayness]

I'm more interested in being resurrected than being dead really, I don't care about the afterlife nonsense, just the rebuilt state of Shepard, I want tears in the rain man.

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
This is why you miss the point.

It's not just a small sleep.  Shepard experienced brain death.  There is no way to restore higher cognitive wave patterns after ten minutes of total brain death, at most, to say nothing of the neuron pathways that store the memory, both conscious and subconscious, and define personality.  Shepard not only experienced brain death for weeks, but suffered such severe trauma that the body was unrecognizable.  Yet somehow, after only two years, not only is Shepard's body restored just the way it was, but Shepard gets up off the table not only with memories, language skills, motore skills, reflexes, and training intact, but doesn't have to spend any time in physical therapy to work the muscle tissue up to the point where this totally unused body can actually move.

Forget explaining all that, none of it is even justified.

Eh, what are you trying to say exactly?

If you are trying to debate over Shepard's resurrection then read the other relevant post, my point there was concerning Shepard's emotions after waking up. It's one to discuss the "How?" and another to discuss the "What now?" And stop with the "If it's not possible now, it can't be possible in the future" argument.

According to the plot, Shepard's mental world is the same, and therefore you can not question that. It's a fact. You can only wonder how that happenned.

But back to the point of that post, for Shepard, it is a small nap.
He blacked-out and recovered right after. No matter how long Shepard was dead or unconsious does not matter.

Modifié par Phaedon, 25 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[Chuvvy]

Phaedon wrote...

BioWare can play around with relatively vague terms like mass and dark energy all they want,

hormones, neurons and cells? I am not saying that biology is not scientific uncharted territory to an extent, but you can definitely can not come up with anything that is not extremely vague.

Wibbily wobboly bio wio. There we go, problem solved.

[Phaedon]

Slidell505 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

BioWare can play around with relatively vague terms like mass and dark energy all they want,

hormones, neurons and cells? I am not saying that biology is not scientific uncharted territory to an extent, but you can definitely can not come up with anything that is not extremely vague.

Wibbily wobboly bio wio. There we go, problem solved.

Wait, so the only thing that they had to do is add more wobbolies to the potion? Why didn't I think of that before! 

[JKA_Nozyspy]

Good Chaos7 wrote...

I would love to see how my body looked being brought in.

Like a prune, no doubt.

[Ryzaki]

I would like to see it explained myself.

Why on earth BW didn't just use the coma trick I'll never understand.

[Mister Mida]

Shepard's death was totally unnecessary. If giving an explanation of what exactly happened between Shepard's suit losing pressure and oxygen and the moment where Shepard first wakes up is possible, yes please. Just give it to me in text somewhere in the game.

[Praetor Knight]

Ryzaki wrote...

I would like to see it explained myself.

Why on earth BW didn't just use the coma trick I'll never understand.

There is the possibility that the reason it took two years is because Shepard was in a coma. I just hope that someone, maybe Miranda, will comment on the project in ME3.

Maybe it can come up on that trial?

[Phaedon]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I would like to see it explained myself.

Why on earth BW didn't just use the coma trick I'll never understand.

There is the possibility that the reason it took two years is because Shepard was in a coma. I just hope that someone, maybe Miranda, will comment on the project in ME3.

Maybe it can come up on that trial?

"Dead as dead can be", regardless of who said so, makes it pretty clear that the writers wanted the fact that Shepard died to be undisputable. 

[Sable Phoenix]

Phaedon wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
This is why you miss the point.

It's not just a small sleep.  Shepard experienced brain death.  There is no way to restore higher cognitive wave patterns after ten minutes of total brain death, at most, to say nothing of the neuron pathways that store the memory, both conscious and subconscious, and define personality.  Shepard not only experienced brain death for weeks, but suffered such severe trauma that the body was unrecognizable.  Yet somehow, after only two years, not only is Shepard's body restored just the way it was, but Shepard gets up off the table not only with memories, language skills, motore skills, reflexes, and training intact, but doesn't have to spend any time in physical therapy to work the muscle tissue up to the point where this totally unused body can actually move.

Forget explaining all that, none of it is even justified.

Eh, what are you trying to say exactly?

If you are trying to debate over Shepard's resurrection then read the other relevant post, my point there was concerning Shepard's emotions after waking up. It's one to discuss the "How?" and another to discuss the "What now?" And stop with the "If it's not possible now, it can't be possible in the future" argument.

According to the plot, Shepard's mental world is the same, and therefore you can not question that. It's a fact. You can only wonder how that happenned.

But back to the point of that post, for Shepard, it is a small nap.
He blacked-out and recovered right after. No matter how long Shepard was dead or unconsious does not matter.

I can't believe I have to reiterate the point a third time, especially since you obliquely referred to it this time around.

The "how" is the point.  We're never given the "how", and that is bad writing.  If it isn't resolved in the third game, it's a plot hole.  I'm not making an argument about anything that's impossible now being or not being possible in the future.  It's called the willing suspension of disbelief, and Mass Effect 2 doesn't have it.  The Lazarus Project, given all the other information we have on the Mass Effect universe, is not internally consistent and is not believable.

It is, in fact, a wallbanger.  It's dangerously close to a Dethroning Moment of Suck, and if it's not somehow turned into something integral to the plot once the third game finishes, it will be ensconced irrevocably as the moment that the Mass Effect series jumped the shark.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 25 juin 2011 - 10:07 .

[FrozenShadow]

Ryzaki wrote...

I would like to see it explained myself.

Why on earth BW didn't just use the coma trick I'll never understand.

Because I think that would be too ordinary. It's much more dramatic to kill the hero and then bring him/her back to life. Nothing would be more shocking than to see your Shep getting spaced and dying helplessly.

Now to answer OP, I would really like to see some file of Lazarus project and how they brought Shep back. And Shep would even have good reason for asking those files. After all during the Overload mission, Rogue VI took complete control of Shep, because of those cybernetics (and Omni-tool). And what would happen if Reapers would do the same?

So, I would say it would actually made, even plot wise, to reveal how Lazarus project brought Shep back. All we know is that it could even save Shep later from possible Reaper controlling.

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...I can't believe I have to reiterate the point a third time, especially since you obliquely referred to it this time.

The "how" is the point.  We're never given the "how", and that is bad writing.  

I find it rather surprising that you don't want to see any point reiterated, when you apparently ignore my first posts in this thread (the points of which I repeat again and again). 

-Bioware can't possibly explain how it works. FTL travel? Mix up some research on FTL Travel such as Alcubierre's drive, vaguely reference it, add even vaguer subjects such as mass, matter and dark energy and you have a decent, yet still incredibly vague explanation. This is biology/biochemistry/neurology we are talking about. They are not that much of an uncharted territory, at least not as much as other aspects of the MEverse are. What you want is BioWare to cook up something that sounds "cool" using terms from biochemistry and neurology.

Well, you can't do that. Maybe, if in the future scientists achieve resurection, they'll be able to describe it with contemporary terminology and knowledge, but what you ask from Bioware is impossible. End of story.

-Just because it is impossible right now, it doesn't mean that it has to be impossible in the future. Do I really need to waste everyone's time by listing historical examples?

If it isn't resolved in the third game, it's aplot hole.  I'm not making an argument about anything that's impossible now being or not being possible in the future.  It's called the willing suspension of disbelief, and Mass Effect 2 doesn't have it.

That's horrible logic.

 A plothole is an event that is created by stating something that is rendered incorrect by simple logic or the 'flow of logic' (as Wikipedia says) of the storyline already. Just because something is not fully explained to you, it doesn't mean that it is a plot hole. Jeez, that reminds me of smudboy.

 There is nothing in the universe that says that a scientific breakthrough couldn't happen at that time. That means that it is not a plot hole.

Modifié par Phaedon, 25 juin 2011 - 10:10 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

There is also the fact death changes you the near death people can tell you that dying and coming back absolutely across the board changes who you are they never recover from this point their lives are forever seen as before I died and after I died.

For brain trauma I've had that it's not fun having hit my head in a car crash and gotten a severe one messed me up it was horrible so shep crashing into the ground that brain trauma is off the charts he'd never recover from ever so they'd be bringing back one messed up shep right from the get go yet he can function, he fallows orders, can fallow movement, his body reacts to him when he wants he's up and about no issues. When I had my concussion I couldn't fallow stuff, hearing was terrible, when people spoke to me I caught 1 or 2 things they said if that and my brain couldn't put the sentences together in any meaningful way sometimes words would be completely out of order, I could barely fallow instructions, so shep off the table able to go from the get go already not believable. I still feel things aren't right up there.

Someone brought up a great point talking 1 session with Kelly could've helped with some of this at least letting shep reflect on dying and being brought back an emotional session with her could've helped some, asking Miranda when you take the tour for more info could've helped, but nothing BW drooped that ball into the Marianas Trench on this one I hope they didn't attach cinder blocks to it so they can pull it up for 3.

So far people are doing a good job of keeping the debating to a minimum but what else should the Lproject files reveal? Some said pics of your body creepy but a good add.


So far I'm gathering we want:

Pics of sheps remains when brought in and during the reconstruction process.

How the project was achieved

Detailed description on the body after they received it from Liara - If they do an autopsy  they'll establish burns, broken bones, scars, over all skin trauma, head trauma, brain injury state, organ damage, was anything missing from the body, ect. BW ask a mortician if you need help on this. This person will also establish what can be saved and what can't be physically wise.

A neurologist examination of shep beyond a scan saying everything is fine did they test shep? How does this brain doctor think shep's mind is healing are the connecting neurons mending or rerouting is tech doing the reroute work instead hows his mind functioning after being dead for so long, also this neurologist would say about memories too how are they recovering that can they recover them?

Specifics on technology used we know cybernetics but what, we think reaper tech from where Sovereign or something else and where was it used in shep and for what purpose, spy ware, track ware

We want perhapse a psychologist opinion or two on the social ramifications and the potential harm or benefit this could do to shep mentally.

Physical life expectancy has that changed thanks to Lproject is his/her life extended or decreasing? How long does he/she have to live?

Shep's reproductive organs does he/she still have them, are they viable or not, or did Cerberus remove them because it was unnecessary to expend the resources to fix that. You know shep did ask about removing important things.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 25 juin 2011 - 10:23 .