337 réponses à ce sujet

[hwf]

Destroy Raiden: At everybody the issue for the Lprojects are stemming from multiple angles of writing, of religion, of personal beliefs, and of cold hard facts people die they don't come back is a fact of life.

Actually on seeing the Lazarus Project for the first time I thought - how would Ashley Williams react to this, to Shepard's revival; seeing as she believes in God and therefor the Human soul.

But there's something I don't understand about this entire argument Sable Phoenix attempts to make.

If you're having issues accepting the Lazarus Project, how can you accept the type of mind melding/merging indoctrination you see in the Derelict Reaper?
Or better yet - if you herald Planescape: Torment as one the most highly-regarded games ever made in terms of story and characterization, how do you come to accept the eventual conclusion of that very epic?

Modifié par hwf, 26 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[ReallyRue]

I'd love to see questions/answers about this. Presumably Shepard would feel something about being dead. Sure, s/he wouldn't be able to remember the experience, but being dead and ressurected? That's a hell of a thing to get your head round, and all the questions it raises. The best thing I saw regarding this was in the Jacob romance, when Shep can say something about having survivor's guilt for getting a second chance when others don't.

And aside from the whole being dead thing. there's the whole "not entirely human" aspect. I think I'd wonder just how human I was after going through something like that, and whether I'd be subject to the same experiences as other humans - reproduction, illness, death (at normal age), etc.

Of course there's the nitty gritty stuff too, like what did Shep look like when s/he was brought in, and exactly what kind of tech was used to rebuild her/him. I wondered about the possible connection to Sovereign there too. Like what happened to Saren, but with Sovereign being dead, there was no opportunity for it to assume control of Shep as it did Saren.

[Destroy Raiden_]

hwf The questions of mindmeld and whatever happened in planescape should be discussed in another thread this one concerns the Lproject. Though the melding is questionable it should be debated in it's own thread.

For Ash I can only imagine she'd feel shep being there very very wrong especially sense she knew Cerberus did the bringing back not God. But how she reacts is for her own thread to be discussed in under the romance section.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 26 juin 2011 - 09:20 .

[hwf]

Fair enough. Those two questions towards Sable Phoenix' motivation are off-topic.
Still, why there are people that are absolutely sure that the Lazarus Project is just a "cool tool" to handle game mechanics I find hard believe

On-topic: If anything, even though I'm not religious, I'd like to see the whole concept of the "soul" (from the religious point of view) in relation to this Lazarus Project being handled/covered by Bioware.
Now this doesn't have to be in the Lazarus project datafiles, or the trial - just as a conversation topic; like for example with Ashley Williams.

[Mixon]

I want my dead Kaiden make alive

[Phaedon]

[quote]iakus wrote...
The point isn't that Shepard's personality should necessarilly change.[/quote]
That was your original point. 

[quote]The point is that people's view of him should change.  The point is the cybernetics aren't important.  Shepard dying isn't important.  Hardly anyone comments about his/her death.[/quote]
All NPCs who know him will react to either his disapperance or death. So, absolutely not.

[quote]Nobody notices the glowing red eyes.[/quote]
Cybernetics are not unusual. Do you often criticize people of poor writing because Nihlus or the Council did not make not of his much more obvious implanets?

[quote]No one wonders how Shepard's reacting to being dead/near death experience or having major reconstructive surgery of his/her innards.[/quote]
It's one thing for no one to wonder and another to say
"Oh, hey Shep, so you died, no big deal, I am sure that the topic is not touchy, how was the reconstructive surgery?. Does your groin still hurt?"

As to the "major reconstructive surgery" you are creating data from thin air. To be reconstructed with no visible differences wouldn't make anyone wonder anything, let alone them being a plot point.


[quote] Nobody wonders about Shepard's humanity.  Not even Shepard.[/quote]
Because it is stated, what less than 5 minutes into the first mission?

[quote] Ash is the only one I can recall who wonders if Shepard's being controlled by Cerberus.  Death, even near death, should be a Big Deal.  Lifesaving cybernetic upgrades should be a Big Deal. [/quote]
Although I have already addressed, naively, I must add, to these arguments, how does that relate to our debate? How does that relate to request of a more specific scientific explanation to be revealed? They don't.

[quote] Death was used as an excuse for Shep to take a 2 year vacation.  And it was treated as such by most of the cast.[/quote]
Tru fax.
Hyperboles, subjectivism and downright lies on BSN? Never!


[quote]Shepard's Sole survivor background had more effect on how people viewed Shep in ME1 than death in ME2.  Not cool.[/quote]
The only thing that is not cool is to stating this, let alone stating it as a fact. 

I sure hope that it is not deliberate.



[quote]Plotline?  What plotline?  The recordings only say the project went way over budget but Wilson was "confident" Shep could be revived.  The SB dossiers only say Wilson was a Shadow Broker agent.  Nothing says where teh Lazarus tech came from or who developed it.[/quote]
Go back to the Lazarus mission and listen to the recording about Wilson complaining about the lack of praise from Miranda and TIM. 

You seem to be selective with your responses. Why did you miss the part where it says that Cerberus sold the information for billions of dollars? And therefore, the information is original, hence, a breakthrough.

[quote]There's no guarantee Shepard could do it either.  Everything that made Shepard "unique" or "special" was gone in ME2.[/quote]
No, I am afraid not. 
Shepard's brain still holds the ability to decipher the visions.
In fact, you are wrong. Shepard was hardly unique in ME1, he is after the events of ME1, however. He destroyed a Reaper, and for that reason, the Reapers have targetted him and his old companions, as well as his race.

 [quote]Shepard was still exceptional, yes.  But not unique.  There are plenty of still living exceptional individuals.

The Collectors were after anything having anything remotely to do with Shepard, including old acquaintances.  Cerberus could have saved several billion credits luring the Collector Ship into a trap doing a "Weekend at Bernie's" style trick with the corpse.  [/quote]
Well, I do love self-contradictions. 

But in any case, Shepard is the only human in the galaxy to have destroyed a Reaper and the only one to be able to decipher Prothean data.

More soldiers wouldn't help against the Reapers, more fleets wouldn't change anything either. And money doesn't mean much right before the apocalypse.

What the galaxy needed is a strong leader, to be not only an inspiration (See: If Shepard falls...) but also to lead people in a suicide mission. Because frankly, that would happen sooner or later, Collectors or not.

[quote]No I say I want the Lazarus Project existing at all to have implications for the future.  As it is, despite the huge timeline which the universe works with, it takes place in a vacuum.  The Lazarus Project says that immortality can exist for humans.  You die, you have the procedure, you come back "exactly" as before.  As far as we know, it can be done over and over and over.  It's hideously expensive right now, yes.  But it exists.  It will be (re)discovered.  It will be worked on, perfected, made more cost effective.  The genie will be out of the bottle.  20 years was just an arbitrary number I tossed out. [/quote]
Not real biological immortality. There is not much to gain by doing a LP over Walt Disney.
Should all of your demands be achieved (cheaper technolodgy, non-unique conditions, etc, etc,) we will certainly not see the effects in ME3 because: a) It's too soon, It's hard to put anything into practice when the Reapers are wiping out your planet.

[quote]I said I want an explanation that takes death seriously.[/quote]
How does this one not to do that?

[quote] It does not have to be a serious scientific explanation.
I have no specifics, just certain criteria:

I want a clear explanation as to why Shepard was so special .  Possible examples:  

The Cipher may still be of use.  [/quote]
First off, this has nothing to do with explaining the project itself. Moreover, the Cipher is still in use. Shepard and his memories and personality are still the same.

[quote]Shep is the only human to survive an encounter with a beacon.  Cerberus has had many "casualties" in trying to reproduce that feat, as the Protheans may have left more information behind (we know the SB was looking into Prothean tech after all)[/quote]
You are assuming that Cerberus has found a working beacon...

[quote]Shepard knows (or Cerberus thinks Shepard knows) some crucial piece of information about the Reapers[/quote]
That makes no sense, since Shepard was never exposed in a discussion with a Reaper but for a few seconds.

[quote]I want to know at least a psuedoscientific answer to what the Lazarus Project does.  Possibilities:[/quote]
You already have one. 
"it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities."

[quote]Artificial cellular regeneration based on krogan and vorcha cells, combined with cybernetic enhancements.[/quote]
That is technically possible today, without krogan or vorcha, and it is already in the explanation and the in-game video.

[quote]Possibly combined with microscopic surgery using extremely small ME fields to repair damage at a molecular level. [/quote]
That makes no sense.

And that's the problem with having things that sound "cool".

ME fields don't do surgery. You are thinking of medi-gel and it's nanobots.

[quote]Damaged memories are restored via experimental "restore point"  brain surgery which downloads information from brain tissues, repairs "damaged" sectors (possibly replacing hopelessly lost portions), and reuploads them once the damaged sections of the brain are repaired.  [/quote]
And you are assuming that the information is lost, which is absolutely unfounded.

[quote](Would make for a cool scene where he has to be convinced that all his memories are "accurate" as far as anyone can tell.  Plus the fact that someone has been rooting around in his head to begin with.)[/quote]
Not really. Not when people are dying in Earth every few seconds.

[quote]I want to know why the Lazarus Project cannot, at some point, be mass-produced.

 Incredibly rare materials are needed.  [/quote]
That's anti-climatic and not the point of the thread.

[quote]It was done with Reaper technology that no one really understands, and may not understand for centuries to come.[/quote]
Unecessary. 

[quote]Shepard was not the only recipient of this treatment, just the only one it worked on.
[/quote]
We already know that.

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Except that the hole in your logic starts from the fact that the use of resurection technolodgy is not a major plot point in ME2. The breakthrough that allowed people to be resurrected was.[/quote]

I'd argue that Shepard waking up in a Cerberus facility after being dead for two years was rather important to the plot [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie][/quote]
I'll requote my post until you give me an answer,until a satisfying one. 

We are not talking about a plot device like the ME fields that are used everyday, and we are not talking about something that has already been discovered.

One day it remains undiscovered, and the other a research paper is published. That's it.

I'm sure that Newton would be most irritated if you complained about him publishing Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica without a warning, or at least some sort of foreshadowing.


[quote]As long as it stayed consistent with what eezo can do now, I wouldn't care.  Just don't start letting it give people mind reading capabilities, prophetic visions, time travel, or other weirdness.

"Create your rules.  Then follow them"
[/quote]
You clearly did not understand what I was talking about. One day, humanity found ancient ruins on Mars. 

Then they discovered eezo. How could they possibly foreshadow it?

Modifié par Phaedon, 26 juin 2011 - 11:31 .

[Patchwork]

If Shepard is held while a trail is being organised it's hard to believe the Alliance didn't run experiments. If the how, husk/reaper/etc tech, is relevant to the plot of ME3 then we'll probably learn more about the project if not then we wont.

Writing dialogue about how Shepard feels about his/her death and missing two years of their life would be problematic. Religion, PC's personal beliefs, RP choices and so many other variables. I don't blame BW for just ignoring it beyond some wiseass comebacks.

[Immortanius]

Buckwheat530 wrote...

I wouldn't want to hear the details. As others have said, it would need to stay vague to be believable. What would be interesting is having the Lazarus Project being brought up in the trail at the beginning of the game, or something to that extent where Shepard's death/reconstruction becomes semi-publicly known.

I second this!

[Sable Phoenix]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

@SablePhoenix, do want something that makes the Project relevant to ME3?

Siansonea II wrote...

My theory, probably not an original theory: The Lazarus Project is a modified form of husk-making. TIM, Wilson and Miranda adapted it to resurrect Shepard, and because of some unrevealed aspect of the technology (a control chip that actually keeps Indoctrination at bay or something) Shepard has free will. Perhaps Shepard has a unique immunity to Indoctrination BECAUSE of the Lazarus Project, and the process only works on a corpse who is then revived through cybernetics and all sorts of stem cell magic medicine.

Something like this would make the Project a plot point that could be incorporated into ME3 and give a reason as to why TIM and Miranda, conveniently neglected to mention the how Shep's alive, to Shep in ME2.

Yes, exactly.  Something like this is the only way they could save the cluster**** that is the Lazarus Project.

[Sable Phoenix]

Repzik wrote...

The problem with Sable Phoenix's argument (besides the gloriously ironic name) is that he fails to see that the limit for the suspension of belief is all in his opinion. Why is the Lazarus Project unbelievable? Because he wants it to be.

Sure, the project was a completely unexpected and unpredictable move by Bioware, but its not a plot hole.

Oh yeah?

Okay then.  Point me to one thing, anything, in Mass Effect 1 that indicates anyone anywhere has the ability to resurrect a depressurized, highly traumatized, and unpreserved dead body and restore its memories and personality intact.  Hell, I'll be generous and expand that to show me one thing in Mass Effect 1 that indicates, even hints at, anyone having the ability, technology, or even desire to begin attempting to do so.  Or to put it another way, point me to the one thing anywhere in Mass Effect 1 that indicates death in the ME universe doesn't work the exact same way it works in ours.

Demonstrate that one thing and I'll admit that the Lazarus Project wasn't a wallbanger.  Until then, it stretches the universe's credibility (i.e., internal consistency) beyond the breaking point (i.e., suspension of disbelief), and starting off the second game with it is plain bad storytelling.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 27 juin 2011 - 01:03 .

[Spinotech]

 
"IT COULD WORK!"

[Destroy Raiden_]

Another thing to add to the it doesn't make sense list is infact the scan of the body in 2 it shows nearly every bone has sustained trauma his neck has a gap in it, shoulder blades have chips, several broken ribs, shattered hip bones, shattered arm bones, leg bones shattered, left knee gone, yet oddly the skull is in perfect condition how? You could say helmet saved him but he was also wearing armor, you could say the shields saved him but it didn't save his body?, then of course slow decent into the atmosphere yet his body is crap and his skull is still fine it doesn't add up though I don't expect BW to go this far in surmising how one's body is shattered yet the skull is perfect.

Reviewing the reconstruction images it seems blue liquid was used what was this BW?

[Iakus]

Wow, this is gonna be long, even by my standards...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

That was your original point. [/quote]

I went back and doublechecked.  You're right.  I got sidetracked.  Nevertheless, the fact that no one comments on the fact that Shepard "died" and is now back, modified with cybernetics, and working for Cerberus.  And yet this is definitely Shepard, not at all altered mentally.  Ash is the only one who even brings up the possibility that Cerberus might be controlling him.  No one (well, except the turian Councilor) brings up the idea that Shepard might be mentally damaged.  No one wonders if the experience changes Shepard's perspective or priorities.  A couple of questions and Miranda and Jacob are convinced the Lazarus Project didn't screw up his brain.  People are traumatized losing limbs.  Shepard lost his life

[quote]
[quote]The point is that people's view of him should change.  The point is the cybernetics aren't important.  Shepard dying isn't important.  Hardly anyone comments about his/her death.[/quote]
All NPCs who know him will react to either his disapperance or death. So, absolutely not.[/quote]

They respond to Shepard being gone.  As in, they haven't seen Shepard in two years and now he's back.  Death seems to be used as a synonym for it.  Is Wrex's (who did not know Shepard had died) greeting with Shepard all that different from, say Tali's?  Or Garrus?

[quote]
Cybernetics are not unusual. Do you often criticize people of poor writing because Nihlus or the Council did not make not of his much more obvious implanets?[/quote]

I call it a graphical cut corner, as in Saren did not have a "before" and "after" appearance for Virmire (kinda like how Tali recognized my Shep on Freedom's Progress while wearing Blood Dragon armor).  

But aside from biotic amps, what cybernetics are commonly mentioned or seen in Mass Effect?

[quote]
It's one thing for no one to wonder and another to say
"Oh, hey Shep, so you died, no big deal, I am sure that the topic is not touchy, how was the reconstructive surgery?. Does your groin still hurt?"

As to the "major reconstructive surgery" you are creating data from thin air. To be reconstructed with no visible differences wouldn't make anyone wonder anything, let alone them being a plot point.[/quote]

"Hey Shep.  You died.  Wanna talk about it?"

And while paragons have their scars go away, renegades who don't use the dermal regenerator certainly do not.  Even Paragons start with rather interesting glowy scars.  ANd like I said, wouldn't these things show up on scans?

[quote]
[quote] Nobody wonders about Shepard's humanity.  Not even Shepard.[/quote]Because it is stated, what less than 5 minutes into the first mission?[/quote]

And Jacob and Miranda knew this how?  Cause Shep remembered who was made Councilor?  I thought the Lazarus Project was a unique event.  Shep should be in uncharted territory here.

[quote]
Although I have already addressed, naively, I must add, to these arguments, how does that relate to our debate? How does that relate to request of a more specific scientific explanation to be revealed? They don't.[/quote]

Goes towards the indifferent attitude the entire game has about the concept of resurrection.  But very well.  I'll drop it.

[quote] Death was used as an excuse for Shep to take a 2 year vacation.  And it was treated as such by most of the cast.[/quote][quote]
Tru fax.
Hyperboles, subjectivism and downright lies on BSN? Never![/quote]

Hey I've steered clear of ad hominem, I think I'm still ahead of the curve here :innocent:

*The views expressed in this post are the opinion of the poster and do not necessarily reflect that of any other posters, readers, or Bioware in general*

[quote]
[quote]Shepard's Sole survivor background had more effect on how people viewed Shep in ME1 than death in ME2.  Not cool.[/quote]
The only thing that is not cool is to stating this, let alone stating it as a fact. 

I sure hope that it is not deliberate.[/quote]

Are you gonna make me say "In my opinion" for every response?  I'll do it if you ask nicely, but it's gonna slow things down.

No, I do not know that for a fact.  I can tell you it certainly seemed  to be the case.  Shepard in ME 1 got to talk on more than one occassion about being "the Hero of Elysium", "The Butcher of Torfan"  Savior of the Citadel, well, you get a few "I thought you were dead" lines and discounts at "My favorite store on the CItadel"



[quote]
Go back to the Lazarus mission and listen to the recording about Wilson complaining about the lack of praise from Miranda and TIM. [/quote]

"The Lazarus Project is about to enter it's final phase.  It's taken nearly two years, but we did it.  Commander Shepard is alive!  This is the most amazing medical achievement in recorded history!  Maybe now Miranda will finally show some appreciation for everything I've done"

Still not seeing it.  But at least Wilson seemed to appreciate the magnitude of the Lazarus Project.

[quote]
You seem to be selective with your responses. Why did you miss the part where it says that Cerberus sold the information for billions of dollars? And therefore, the information is original, hence, a breakthrough.[/quote]

Umm Where is this again?  Cause it's news to me.

[quote]
No, I am afraid not. 
Shepard's brain still holds the ability to decipher the visions.
In fact, you are wrong. Shepard was hardly unique in ME1, he is after the events of ME1, however. He destroyed a Reaper, and for that reason, the Reapers have targetted him and his old companions, as well as his race.[/quote]

Shepard could in theory decipher Prothean visions, yes.  And if that's the reason he was brought back, I'd accept it as a valid reason.  But that never came up.  The concept that he was brought back because he killed a Reaper implies that no one else could ever do that again, given what is known about Reapers at this point.  

 [quote]
Well, I do love self-contradictions. 

But in any case, Shepard is the only human in the galaxy to have destroyed a Reaper and the only one to be able to decipher Prothean data.[/quote]

And he was brought back for one reason, the one that doesn't make him unique, and not for the other, which does.  And yet the Illusive Man called Shepard "unique"  Yup.  contradiction.

[quote]
What the galaxy needed is a strong leader, to be not only an inspiration (See: If Shepard falls...) but also to lead people in a suicide mission. Because frankly, that would happen sooner or later, Collectors or not.[/quote]

So they bring back a dead N7 marine who's not a Spectre anymore, out of favor with the Council, distrusted by the Alliance, and has no reason to like or trust Cerberus...


[quote]
[quote]I said I want an explanation that takes death seriously.[/quote]
How does this one not to do that?[/quote]

Because, no one, not even Shepard, took it seriously?

[quote] 
First off, this has nothing to do with explaining the project itself. Moreover, the Cipher is still in use. Shepard and his memories and personality are still the same.[/quote]

Shepard was the entire point of the Lazarus Project.  Why Shepard was thought worthy of bringing back goes towards why the Project existed at all.

[quote]
You are assuming that Cerberus has found a working beacon...[/quote]
Well, the Shadow Broker was looking for them.  And there was that N7 mission....

[quote]That makes no sense, since Shepard was never exposed in a discussion with a Reaper but for a few seconds.[/quote]To me, it makes at least as much sense as "You're unique"

[quote]]You already have one. 
"it involved attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct the Commander's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart the blood flow and internal organs. However, the one thing that the Illusive Man refused to do was implant a control chip in the Commander's brain, fearing that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities."[/quote]

And how did the brain start working again?

[quote]
[quote]Possibly combined with microscopic surgery using extremely small ME fields to repair damage at a molecular level.[/quote]
That makes no sense.

And that's the problem with having things that sound "cool".

ME fields don't do surgery. You are thinking of medi-gel and it's nanobots.[/quote]

Nanomachines work as well.  Just trying to find some reason that the "space magic" that already exists in the ME universe could justify the "space magic" that is the Lazarus Project.

[quote]
[quote]Damaged memories are restored via experimental "restore point"  brain surgery which downloads information from brain tissues, repairs "damaged" sectors (possibly replacing hopelessly lost portions), and reuploads them once the damaged sections of the brain are repaired.  [/quote]
And you are assuming that the information is lost, which is absolutely unfounded.[/quote]

Miranda: "Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initially feared.  In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures"

Assuming any of this has to do with the brain, there would be brain damage.  Lost or damaged data.  Just a few minutes without oxygen can seriously mess up a human brain.  And there's a reason cryogenics don't work.  That's the one organ you really can't replace with cybernetics without risking changing the person.  Which, of course, didn't happen, right?

[quote]
[quote]It was done with Reaper technology that no one really understands, and may not understand for centuries to come.[/quote]
Unecessary. [/quote]

Why?  I think it's one of the few ways the Lazarus Project can make any sense at all in the ME universe.


[quote]Phaedon wrote...

We are not talking about a plot device like the ME fields that are used everyday, and we are not talking about something that has already been discovered.

One day it remains undiscovered, and the other a research paper is published. That's it.

I'm sure that Newton would be most irritated if you complained about him publishing Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica without a warning, or at least some sort of foreshadowing.[/quote]

If the scientific laws of the Principia turned out to be vital to the continuation of a story, yes, I'd like a little foreshadowing.  Particularly if said laws seemed totally unrelated to the science that formed the basis of all advanced technology in existence.

Part of the story behind Mass Effect is that all this "Prothean" tech is actually Reaper tech, designed as a trap for races to develop along the lines the Reapers want.  If Lazarus tech really is brand spanking new "human" technology, a sign that humans are finding their own path, that's a Big Deal.

[quote]
You clearly did not understand what I was talking about. One day, humanity found ancient ruins on Mars. 

Then they discovered eezo. How could they possibly foreshadow it?
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the discovery of ancient ruins on Mars by itself would foreshadow a significant scientific discovery was about to be made.

Modifié par iakus, 27 juin 2011 - 05:37 .

[Mister Mida]

The argument that Shepard's suit's shields aka kinetic barriers saved him is also invalid since those only protect against small fast moving objects. Not against big ones like a planet.

[Symji]

Lazarus technology is not some super awesome galaxy shaking event. This is evident on the very first mission you take on Freedom's Progress. When you walk in on Tali and her team she at first expresses suprise that you're alive, but after telling her that Cerberus brought you back her Subordinate Praza asks "Why?" not "How?" He doesn't even express mild confusion, other than questioning why someone would go through all the trouble. He even knows that it costs an extremely large amount of time and resources, heavily inferring that this tech is widely known, but not in use due to being extremely cost prohibitive.

Modifié par Symji, 27 juin 2011 - 09:04 .

[Kadzin]

Phaedon wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

you kind of have to wonder what shep's life expecancy is now. if his vital organs, skeletal structure and circulatory system are all cybernetic, He could easily be immortal.

Everything degrades at some point.

except for the Reapers, because they are eternal.

[Mister Mida]

Symji wrote...

Lazarus technology is not some super awesome galaxy shaking event. This is evident on the very first mission you take on Freedom's Progress. When you walk in on Tali and her team she at first expresses suprise that you're alive, but after telling her that Cerberus brought you back her Subordinate Praza asks "Why?" not "How?" He doesn't even express mild confusion, other than questioning why someone would go through all the trouble. He even knows that it costs an extremely large amount of time and resources, heavily inferring that this tech is widely known, but not in use due to being extremely cost prohibitive.

Prazza asks why Shepard works for Cerberus. Not why they brought him back to live.

'Why would your old commander work for Cerberus?'

[Phaedon]

[quote]iakus wrote...
I went back and doublechecked.  You're right.  I got sidetracked.  Nevertheless, the fact that no one comments on the fact that Shepard "died" and is now back, modified with cybernetics, and working for Cerberus.  And yet this is definitely Shepard, not at all altered mentally.  Ash is the only one who even brings up the possibility that Cerberus might be controlling him.  No one (well, except the turian Councilor) brings up the idea that Shepard might be mentally damaged.  No one wonders if the experience changes Shepard's perspective or priorities.  A couple of questions and Miranda and Jacob are convinced the Lazarus Project didn't screw up his brain.  People are traumatized losing limbs.  Shepard lost his life[/quote]


[quote]They respond to Shepard being gone.[/quote] Pretty sure that that' refers to dying so... 

[quote]  As in, they haven't seen Shepard in two years and now he's back.  Death seems to be used as a synonym for it.  Is Wrex's (who did not know Shepard had died) greeting with Shepard all that different from, say Tali's?  Or Garrus?[/quote]
Go to YouTube, search "Wrex+Shepard+ME2+meeting", notice the part about the "void". Garrus brings up Shepard dying more than any other character, Tali does mention, "I thought that you were dead!"[/quote]
[quote]I call it a graphical cut corner, as in Saren did not have a "before" and "after" appearance for Virmire (kinda like how Tali recognized my Shep on Freedom's Progress while wearing Blood Dragon armor).  [/quote]
Saren had a geth arm for an arm.

[quote]But aside from biotic amps, what cybernetics are commonly mentioned or seen in Mass Effect?[/quote]
http://masseffect.wi...tics&fulltext=0
Take a look at all of those, especially the entry about Morlan. And note that he is a shop keeper.

[quote]"Hey Shep.  You died.  Wanna talk about it?"

And while paragons have their scars go away, renegades who don't use the dermal regenerator certainly do not.  Even Paragons start with rather interesting glowy scars.  ANd like I said, wouldn't these things show up on scans?[/quote]
What, cynernetics? Why would they? It is only logical to assume that cybernetics, along with genetic engineering are normal.

Heck, people who use haptic interfaces all the time have surgery to install cybernetics.

[quote]And Jacob and Miranda knew this how?  Cause Shep remembered who was made Councilor?  I thought the Lazarus Project was a unique event.  Shep should be in uncharted territory here.[/quote]
Define human. Shepard's conscience remains the same, for that not to happen, and Shepard to be a non-human intelligence (AI), the brain would be replaced by a CPU. Jacob and especially Miranda were involved in the Lazarus Project  and know that that is not true.

[quote]Hey I've steered clear of ad hominem, I think I'm still ahead of the curve here :innocent:

*The views expressed in this post are the opinion of the poster and do not necessarily reflect that of any other posters, readers, or Bioware in general*[/quote]I want a link to the EULA and the Copyright Agreement, or no deal.
[quote]
[quote]Are you gonna make me say "In my opinion" for every response?  I'll do it if you ask nicely, but it's gonna slow things down.

No, I do not know that for a fact.  I can tell you it certainly seemed  to be the case.  Shepard in ME 1 got to talk on more than one occassion about being "the Hero of Elysium", "The Butcher of Torfan"  Savior of the Citadel, well, you get a few "I thought you were dead" lines and discounts at "My favorite store on the CItadel"[/quote]Hence, why I said that I hoped that you were not deliberately posting it as a fact.

It is a fact that Shepard's death is mentioned more times than his or her background. I won't go over the entire script to prove this, but I can mention several examples if you wish.


[quote]"The Lazarus Project is about to enter it's final phase.  It's taken nearly two years, but we did it.  Commander Shepard is alive!  This is the most amazing medical achievement in recorded history!  Maybe now Miranda will finally show some appreciation for everything I've done"

Still not seeing it.  But at least Wilson seemed to appreciate the magnitude of the Lazarus Project.[/quote]
Dat orange.

1) The Project was indeed a scientific breakthrough.
2) Wilson claims to have played a very vital role in it. Along with other scientists, naturally.

[quote]Umm Where is this again?  Cause it's news to me.[/quote]
Shadow Broker Dossiers> Cerberus

[quote]Rogue agency for "advancement of humanity" founded in 2157. Active in both Citadel and Terminus Space. Strong human supremacist overtones. classified as a terrorist threat by both the Systems Alliance and Citadel Council.The loss of credits due to the Illusive Man's direct interference in recovery of Commander Shepard's body has been offset by data gathered from the Lazarus Project. Withhold retaliation until Shepard's long-term functionality is confirmed (one year post-resurrection).[/quote]
[quote]Shepard could in theory decipher Prothean visions, yes.  And if that's the reason he was brought back, I'd accept it as a valid reason.  But that never came up.  The concept that he was brought back because he killed a Reaper implies that no one else could ever do that again, given what is known about Reapers at this point. [/quote]
It is not known who else could bring down a Reaper, and considering that TIM didn't have many choices, he went with bringing back a "tested product" sounds plausible enough for me. 

 [quote]And he was brought back for one reason, the one that doesn't make him unique, and not for the other, which does.  And yet the Illusive Man called Shepard "unique"  Yup.  contradiction.[/quote]
He is the only one to take a Reaper. That makes him unique.
He is the only one to view and decipher the Prothean visions. That makes him unique.
He and Shiala are the only ones that "hold" the Prothean Cipher. That makes both of them unique.

[quote]So they bring back a dead N7 marine who's not a Spectre anymore, out of favor with the Council, distrusted by the Alliance, and has no reason to like or trust Cerberus...[/quote]
That is hardly the point. Shepard is a symbol for humanity, and the only one to take down a Reaper yet.
TIM doesn't need Shepard's trust, not if Cerberus, along with the rest of humanity could very well be reaped in a few years.

Shepard was assumed KIA, that's why he is not a Spectre. If it wasn't for the involvement with Cerberus, there would be no problem with the Council accepting him. The same applies for the Alliance.





[quote]Because, no one, not even Shepard, took it seriously?[/quote]That's hardly what an explanation means.
[quote] 
First off, this has nothing to do with explaining the project itself. Moreover, the Cipher is still in use. Shepard and his memories and personality are still the same.[/quote]

Shepard was the entire point of the Lazarus Project.  Why Shepard was thought worthy of bringing back goes towards why the Project existed at all.[/quote]
Could you please rephrase? I can't understand your point.

[quote]Well, the Shadow Broker was looking for them.  And there was that N7 mission....[/quote]
And that makes for three beacons, which were very hard to discover. Why would Cerberus find one, let alone have "multiple casualties" using a single one?

[quote]To me, it makes at least as much sense as "You're unique"[/quote]That's not a valid argument. On which grounds would TIM assume that Shepard has intel on the Reapers? He spoke with one for a few seconds, and the only physical contact he had with one of them, was when debris from Sovereign almost crushed him/her.

[quote]And how did the brain start working again?[/quote]
Science!1!one! 

You ask for a valid scientific explanation which no one can not give, and that's why it's not given.


[quote]Nanomachines work as well.  Just trying to find some reason that the "space magic" that already exists in the ME universe could justify the "space magic" that is the Lazarus Project.[/quote]But you don't need that, at all. We are not talking about introducing a space magic that has been in use for years, we are talking about the actual discovery of this space magic, hence why it is impossible for it to have been around, even partially, previously.
[quote]
[quote]Miranda: "Test subject has been recovered, but the damage is far worse than we initially feared.  In addition to the expected burns and internal injuries from the explosion, subject has suffered significant cellular breakdown due to long term exposure to vacuum and subzero temperatures"

Assuming any of this has to do with the brain, there would be brain damage.  Lost or damaged data.  Just a few minutes without oxygen can seriously mess up a human brain.  And there's a reason cryogenics don't work.  That's the one organ you really can't replace with cybernetics without risking changing the person.  Which, of course, didn't happen, right?[/quote]No, not loss of  data. Even if we assume that the puzzle is broken, the pieces are there, you are not making a puzzle from scratch.

[quote]Why?  I think it's one of the few ways the Lazarus Project can make any sense at all in the ME universe.[/quote]...which is why it is unecessary. You are just introducing a different kind of space magic, called "Reaper Data Regeneration Magic!", which certainly makes less sense than scientists discovering resurrection in the future.

[quote]f the scientific laws of the Principia turned out to be vital to the continuation of a story, yes, I'd like a little foreshadowing.  Particularly if said laws seemed totally unrelated to the science that formed the basis of all advanced technology in existence.[/quote]
A universe were you have foreshadowing before a breakthrough must have pretty incapable scientists.

Not that your argument makes much sense. Breakthroughs are called breakthroughs for a reason.

[quote]Part of the story behind Mass Effect is that all this "Prothean" tech is actually Reaper tech, designed as a trap for races to develop along the lines the Reapers want.  If Lazarus tech really is brand spanking new "human" technology, a sign that humans are finding their own path, that's a Big Deal.[/quote]
You keep bringing up this big deal stuff, assuming that we don't agree with you.
It's big deal. It's not a minor discovery, it's a breakthrough.

Hence why you don't have a trilogy of prequels with scientists discussing "Pfft, I am so close to resurrecting the dead and building a zombie army, but I am still wondering how it's supposed to work"

[quote]I'm pretty sure the discovery of ancient ruins on Mars by itself would foreshadow a significant scientific discovery was about to be made.[/quote]
Foreshadows tend to last more than a few hours or days.

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Oh yeah?

Okay then.  Point me to one thing, anything, in Mass Effect 1 that indicates anyone anywhere has the ability to resurrect a depressurized, highly traumatized, and unpreserved dead body and restore its memories and personality intact.  Hell, I'll be generous and expand that to show me one thing in Mass Effect 1 that indicates, even hints at, anyone having the ability, technology, or even desire to begin attempting to do so.  Or to put it another way, point me to the one thing anywhere in Mass Effect 1 that indicates death in the ME universe doesn't work the exact same way it works in ours.

Demonstrate that one thing and I'll admit that the Lazarus Project wasn't a wallbanger.  Until then, it stretches the universe's credibility (i.e., internal consistency) beyond the breaking point (i.e., suspension of disbelief), and starting off the second game with it is plain bad storytelling.

Uhh, your argument is:

"Resurrection as a technolodgical breakthrough is a wallbanger! No one in ME1 had discovered resurrection before!", when even today, scientists are trying to discover it. The point of discovering something is that no one has managed to achieve it before, thankyouverymuch.

And you know what the worst part of your logic is?
You are debating that resurrection is scientifically impossible because of lack of foreshadowing.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 juin 2011 - 06:11 .

[Medhia Nox]

To think that the future of space travel will act anything like the vast, VAST majority of science fiction... is unbelievable.

Tech-resurrection is as implausible as the rest.

[Symji]

Mister Mida wrote...

Symji wrote...

Lazarus technology is not some super awesome galaxy shaking event. This is evident on the very first mission you take on Freedom's Progress. When you walk in on Tali and her team she at first expresses suprise that you're alive, but after telling her that Cerberus brought you back her Subordinate Praza asks "Why?" not "How?" He doesn't even express mild confusion, other than questioning why someone would go through all the trouble. He even knows that it costs an extremely large amount of time and resources, heavily inferring that this tech is widely known, but not in use due to being extremely cost prohibitive.

Prazza asks why Shepard works for Cerberus. Not why they brought him back to live.

'Why would your old commander work for Cerberus?'

Not true.

Modifié par Symji, 27 juin 2011 - 06:49 .

[Mister Mida]

Symji wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Prazza asks why Shepard works for Cerberus. Not why they brought him back to live.

'Why would your old commander work for Cerberus?'

Not true.

Oh that. However, one person reacting indifferently to this is no argument that it's no galaxy shaking event. To me, at least.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 27 juin 2011 - 07:20 .

[Iakus]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Go to YouTube, search "Wrex+Shepard+ME2+meeting", notice the part about the "void". Garrus brings up Shepard dying more than any other character, Tali does mention, "I thought that you were dead!"[/quote]

While the term "dead" comes up it is in a very casual manner.  Even when Shepard acknowledges that he/she was dead, nobody treats it like a big deal, beyond simply not expecting to see Shepard.  "Shepard!  I thought you were dead" ends up carrying all the weight of "Shepard!  I thought you were out shopping!"

RE:  Wrex, he likely only heard rumors of Shepard's death and didn't believe them.  Notice he's cluesless as to the circumstances:

Wrex:  Now Shepard, what brings you here?  How's the Normandy?
Shepard:  Destroyed in a Collector surprise attack.  I ended up spaced.
Wrex:  Well, you look good.  Ah the benefits of a redundant nervous system!
SHepard:  Yeah, humans don't have that
Wrex:  Oh, it must have been painful. then.

[quote]Saren had a geth arm for an arm.[/quote]Funny, I was going to cite that as an example.  Yes that should have sent alarms going off in Nihlus'  head.  But at the risk of repeating myself, this was likely a cost-cutting measure to only give Saren a single avatar.  Pre-Virmire, I'm sure he was supposed to look like an ordinary turian.

[quote]
http://masseffect.wi...tics&fulltext=0
Take a look at all of those, especially the entry about Morlan. And note that he is a shop keeper.[/quote]

I looked through the first page, figuring those would be the most relevant hits.

Virtually all the entries are about A) the Reapers (Dragon's Teeth, husks, Saren's implants) the Collectors or C) the Lazarus Project and Shepard's own cybernetics.  Morlan's mention of cybernetics is from his "male enhancement" spam message, and thus dubious at best.  Virtually all mention of cybernetics among the Council races seem to be biotic amps or implanted interfaces for omnitools.

[quote]
What, cynernetics? Why would they? It is only logical to assume that cybernetics, along with genetic engineering are normal.

Heck, people who use haptic interfaces all the time have surgery to install cybernetics.[/quote]

An omnitool interface installed in your hand or arm is one thing.  I have yet to encounter anyone not working for the Reapers who has glowing red eyes.

[quote]Define human. Shepard's conscience remains the same, for that not to happen, and Shepard to be a non-human intelligence (AI), the brain would be replaced by a CPU. Jacob and especially Miranda were involved in the Lazarus Project  and know that that is not true.[/quote] "Define human" is exactly what I'm getting at.  Shepard is now partly synthetic.  In a galaxy suspicious and fearful of synthetic life shouldn't that mean something?  Even if Shepard still is "Shepard"?
[quote]
It is a fact that Shepard's death is mentioned more times than his or her background. I won't go over the entire script to prove this, but I can mention several examples if you wish.[/quote]

Mentioned, but not reacted to.  Dead hero comes back to life and gets...discounts at the Citadel?  C-Sec hardly bats an eye.  One would think Mordin at least would have taken an interest.  Toombs at least recongizes Shepard as part of his unit.  Ash asks what Torfan was like.


[quote]Dat orange.[/quote]

Yeah I see it.  My response: "Dat ego".  Nothing there says Wilson was anything but a big fish on a team of scientists and operatives.  Or he was in his own mind (though there is likely some truth to it)

[quote]
1) The Project was indeed a scientific breakthrough.
2) Wilson claims to have played a very vital role in it. Along with other scientists, naturally.[/quote]

1 Yes.  And no one else seems to think so, despite seeing living proof of it walking around
2 Claims being the operative word here.  

[quote]Rogue agency for "advancement of humanity" founded in 2157. Active in both Citadel and Terminus Space. Strong human supremacist overtones. classified as a terrorist threat by both the Systems Alliance and Citadel Council.The loss of credits due to the Illusive Man's direct interference in recovery of Commander Shepard's body has been offset by data gathered from the Lazarus Project. Withhold retaliation until Shepard's long-term functionality is confirmed (one year post-resurrection).[/quote]1) The Shadow Broker lost Shepard's corpse, and the reward the Collectors would have paid for it
2) Cerberus, with Shepard's corpse, started the Lazarus Project
3) The Shadow Broker subverts Wilson to spy for him and send data on the Project

The Shadow Broker gained info on the Lazarus Project instead of receiving financial gain from the corpse.  Thus "offset"  Cerberus didn't make a dime off this.  The Shadow Broker likely didn't either, as he was taking a wait and see approach to Shep's long-term survival.

[quote]It is not known who else could bring down a Reaper, and considering that TIM didn't have many choices, he went with bringing back a "tested product" sounds plausible enough for me. [/quote][/quote]
Shepard is not the Grey Warden of Reapers.  He was an N7 marine with two sidekicks.  They, by putting down Saren stopped Sovereign.  The visions were what set him/her on the path to this.

[quote]He is the only one to take a Reaper. That makes him unique. He is the only one to view and decipher the Prothean visions. That makes him unique.
He and Shiala are the only ones that "hold" the Prothean Cipher. That makes both of them unique.[/quote]

You are correct in the second and third assessments.  And I say (again) if either of those reasons were cited by TIM as to why Shepard was brought back, I'd accept them.

But as for the first...In my canon playthrough, Ashley and Wrex would beg to disagree that Shep was the "only one" to take a Reaper.  Heck,. Joker and Admiral Hackett may disagree too, though Shep was certainly instrumental.

[quote]So they bring back a dead N7 marine who's not a Spectre anymore, out of favor with the Council, distrusted by the Alliance, and has no reason to like or trust Cerberus...[/quote]
That is hardly the point. Shepard is a symbol for humanity, and the only one to take down a Reaper yet.
TIM doesn't need Shepard's trust, not if Cerberus, along with the rest of humanity could very well be reaped in a few years.

Shepard was assumed KIA, that's why he is not a Spectre. If it wasn't for the involvement with Cerberus, there would be no problem with the Council accepting him. The same applies for the Alliance.





[quote]That's hardly what an explanation means.[/quote]Okay, how about the ability to return from death, even at great cost, should be treated with a degree of wonder and disbelief.  Given that it and taxes are the great certainties of life, the ability to defy it is quite literally the stuff myths and legends are made of.  People should be curious abut it.  Shepard.  Shepard's friends and acquaintances.  Those of a scientific or philosophical mindset.  By taking it seriously, I mean there should be an exploration into what this means.  For Shepard.  For humanity.  For the galaxy as a whole.  This is not how ME2 handled the Lazarus Project.  If Shepard's deth had been faked and he had been in a batarian prison for the two years, it would not have made a substantive difference to the story's progression (imo)

[quote] 
Could you please rephrase? I can't understand your point.[/quote]

Miranda says the entire point of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard.  Okay, so does that mean the Project would only work for Shepard for some reason? (perhaps the Cipher did something more to his mind?)  If so what is that feature?  If not, would/could TIM bring back valued agents/loved ones if he could justify the cost?

[quote]And that makes for three beacons, which were very hard to discover. Why would Cerberus find one, let alone have "multiple casualties" using a single one?[/quote]You realize we're arguing a purely hypothetical plot point that doesn't actually exist here, right?   But if Cerberus were to bend its efforts into finding a beacon, succeed, and get a bunch of agents killed in doing so (as they inevitably would) TIM might want to have someone on hand who could access said beacon and interpret the visions in the hopes of gaining more information about the Reapers.
[quote]That's not a valid argument. On which grounds would TIM assume that Shepard has intel on the Reapers? He spoke with one for a few seconds, and the only physical contact he had with one of them, was when debris from Sovereign almost crushed him/her.[/quote]We know that.  But Shepard has potentially been all over the galaxy running Saren down.  Who knows what else was picked up?  Or what else might have been in the beacon visions.  Again, purely hypothetical.
[quote]Science!1!one! [
You ask for a valid scientific explanation which no one can not give, and that's why it's not given.[/quote]

"This magic rock rejuvenates human tissue even to the point of restoring brain activity and lost memories.  All you have to do is sprinkle diamond dust on it and pass an electric current through it"
Just show me the frakking magic rocks!  [quote]But you don't need that, at all. We are not talking about introducing a space magic that has been in use for years, we are talking about the actual discovery of this space magic, hence why it is impossible for it to have been around, even partially, previously.[/quote]Technology in the ME universe has pretty much plateaued.  The Lazarus Project is a massive leap forward.  Where did it come from?

[quote]
No, not loss of  data. Even if we assume that the puzzle is broken, the pieces are there, you are not making a puzzle from scratch.[/quote]

This is more than a dog chewing on a puzzle piece.  This is likely more akin to throwing your (powered up) laptop with a cracked case into a pool, letting it sit there for a few weeks, then fish it out and try to get it working again.

Only more so.
[quote]...which is why it is unecessary. You are just introducing a different kind of space magic, called "Reaper Data Regeneration Magic!", which certainly makes less sense than scientists discovering resurrection in the future.[/quote]All space magic in the ME universe can ultimately be traced to the Reapers.  They are Sufficiently Advanced.  So in a sense, it's all the same "type" of magic.  By putting the Lazarus Project under that umbrella, it simply joins the ranks of the rest of the magic, it's just connected in a way we can't see yet.

If humans developed it, then it becomes a whole new brand of magic, which is an important point in itself.

[quote]A universe were you have foreshadowing before a breakthrough must have pretty incapable scientists.
Not that your argument makes much sense. Breakthroughs are called breakthroughs for a reason.[/quote]

It makes no sense to have a loathing for Deus Ex Machina?
If overcoming a massive obstacle such as death is a necessity, then we should see what a massive obstacle it is to surmount.  "I think I'll invent a Cure for Death, Be back in a couple of years" is not the way to go about it in a story.

[quote]You keep bringing up this big deal stuff, assuming that we don't agree with you.It's big deal. It's not a minor discovery, it's a breakthrough.

Hence why you don't have a trilogy of prequels with scientists discussing "Pfft, I am so close to resurrecting the dead and building a zombie army, but I am still wondering how it's supposed to work"[/quote]

True.  But if Mass Effect 1 had made more of a deal about modern medicine  being able to regrow organs, More use of cybernetics in medicine (augmented soldiers, artificial limbs and organs, etc) The Lazarus Project wouldn't have seemed so out of place (Yes!  We finally cracked how to restore brain functionality!  That was the last piece of the puzzle!).  ME1 showed a greater degree in curing diseases and removing genetic defects  But little on cybernetics aside from biotics and computer interfaces (or being buddies with the Reapers).  And almost nothing on cellular regeneration.  At least not for humans.

[quote]
[quote]I'm pretty sure the discovery of ancient ruins on Mars by itself would foreshadow a significant scientific discovery was about to be made.[/quote]
Foreshadows tend to last more than a few hours or days.

[/quote]

Does the Charon Relay count as a foreshadowed scientific discovery?  

Modifié par iakus, 27 juin 2011 - 09:34 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Phaedon wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

you kind of have to wonder what shep's life expecancy is now. if his vital organs, skeletal structure and circulatory system are all cybernetic, He could easily be immortal.

Everything degrades at some point.

Not if it's reaper tech!  Sure,  she might end up walking around as a terminator skelton...  but,  eh,  one has to see the perks being a mechanical monstorosity created in the image of cthulu.  

Does that make anyone else excited?

[Destroy Raiden_]

You must maintain tech that's probably how the collectors became so easy to beat because the reapers gave up up maintaining them.