It would be nice to know exactly what they had to do to you. From the looks of it, most of your bones were shattered, and from what Liara said, you were pretty much shredded and fried when she saw you.
***BW****The Lazarus Project needs revealed in 3
Débuté par
Destroy Raiden_
, juin 25 2011 07:59
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#152
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 01:45
SickJ
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Destroy Raiden wrote...
Another point to death is permanent is in ME2 on Cerberus daily you hear a story of a girl rescuing her family from sure death when engines fail on their ship. She gets out fixes the engine but dies of space exposure when her suit gets ruptured her family left her body inspace if she could've been saved donations would've been given to resurrect this hero back.
I compare the Lazarus Project to medical procedures in the develloped world versus the third world, espesially reconstructive surgery. Professional athletes can afford the medical bills to recover from injuries that would probably leave them permanantly disabled if they lived in (let's say) Somalia.
Add that to Cerberus being almost bankrupted (according to the Shadow Broker) by the cost of resurrecting Shepard, and I'll be completely surprised if anyone else comes back from the dead in ME3*.
*Except for Legion, 'cause it's been established that Geth are alot easier to resurrect. And if Cerberus teams are raiding the Collector Base for tech, why wouldn't they grab the perfectly salvagable geth waiting for them right near the entrance? (sorry, went a little off topic)
#153
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 05:06
S.A.K
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That will ruin my dinnerGood Chaos7 wrote...
I would love to see how my body looked being brought in.
#154
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 04:50
Destroy Raiden_
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After Jacob telling me what I looked like I'm hesitant to view the photos but at the same time it's necessary for me anyway I'd accept more shep was really dead and not say some clone everyone is trying to convince is shep.
#155
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 07:31
Phaedon
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[quote]iakus wrote...
While the term "dead" comes up it is in a very casual manner. Even when Shepard acknowledges that he/she was dead, nobody treats it like a big deal, beyond simply not expecting to see Shepard. "Shepard! I thought you were dead" ends up carrying all the weight of "Shepard! I thought you were out shopping!"
RE: Wrex, he likely only heard rumors of Shepard's death and didn't believe them. Notice he's cluesless as to the circumstances:
Wrex: Now Shepard, what brings you here? How's the Normandy?
Shepard: Destroyed in a Collector surprise attack. I ended up spaced.
Wrex: Well, you look good. Ah the benefits of a redundant nervous system!
SHepard: Yeah, humans don't have that
Wrex: Oh, it must have been painful. then.[/quote]
Really? I thought that the discussion with Wrex was one of the most natural ones. Wrex says that he knew that "the void couldn't keep Shepard forever" or something like that. I really doubt having a sophisticated discussion about death with Wrex. Not saying that he is stupid, it's just not his style. He is, laconic, if you wish.
In any case, we are once again going off-topic. Your complaints are valid, but I don't see how this relates to an explanation that respects death.
[quote]Funny, I was going to cite that as an example. Yes that should have sent alarms going off in Nihlus' head. But at the risk of repeating myself, this was likely a cost-cutting measure to only give Saren a single avatar. Pre-Virmire, I'm sure he was supposed to look like an ordinary turian.[/quote]
I doubt it actually.
They could use his head on any NPC bodies for zero cost. I think that Mac Walters mention something about the cybernetic implant, but I can't remember what exactly. Anyway, I don't think that it's too far fetched to consider it as cannon. After all, Nihlus had never seen a geth, for Saren to have a synthetic arm shouldn't make less sense than him having arrived at the spaceport before him.
[quote]I looked through the first page, figuring those would be the most relevant hits.
Virtually all the entries are about A) the Reapers (Dragon's Teeth, husks, Saren's implants)
the Collectors or C) the Lazarus Project and Shepard's own cybernetics. Morlan's mention of cybernetics is from his "male enhancement" spam message, and thus dubious at best. Virtually all mention of cybernetics among the Council races seem to be biotic amps or implanted interfaces for omnitools.[/quote]
Fine then. If you are going to go all the way to install biotic amps and implanted sensors, why not go ahead and make more enhancements? What about blind people? Shouldn't they have cybernetic eyes in the future?
[quote]An omnitool interface installed in your hand or arm is one thing. I have yet to encounter anyone not working for the Reapers who has glowing red eyes.[/quote]
It's a bit funny actually. Now that you bring that up, TIM's eyes are glowing blue.
And don't make the mistake to assume that the Reaper Artifact in Evolution istalled them. Everything seems to point out that they were installed surgically. And no one comments on them, either, even Eva, his human companion.
[quote]"Define human" is exactly what I'm getting at. Shepard is now partly synthetic. In a galaxy suspicious and fearful of synthetic life shouldn't that mean something? Even if Shepard still is "Shepard"?[/quote]
But, the only visible synthetic part are the eyes, and the scars, under the right circumstances.
Saren and TIM already have those. Nihlus and the Council, along with everyone else don't even notice them, when it comes to Saren.
[quote]Mentioned, but not reacted to. Dead hero comes back to life and gets...discounts at the Citadel? C-Sec hardly bats an eye. One would think Mordin at least would have taken an interest. Toombs at least recongizes Shepard as part of his unit. Ash asks what Torfan was like.[/quote]
I can come up with more mentions, if you wish.
[quote]Yeah I see it. My response: "Dat ego". Nothing there says Wilson was anything but a big fish on a team of scientists and operatives. Or he was in his own mind (though there is likely some truth to it)[/quote]
Okay, so what would convince you? Why would Wilson be happy about the technolodgical breakthrough that he stole from elsewhere? Where is any evidence to point to that. All info from BioWare has been firm and clear. Cerberus recovered the body eventually and created the Lazarus Project solely for Commander Shepard/
[quote]1 Yes. And no one else seems to think so, despite seeing living proof of it walking around[/quote]
Really? I actually thought that it was pretty boring how you had to tell to everyone "Blah blah blah and Cerberus rebuild me."
[quote]2 Claims being the operative word here. [/quote]
Addressed above.
[quote]1) The Shadow Broker lost Shepard's corpse, and the reward the Collectors would have paid for it
2) Cerberus, with Shepard's corpse, started the Lazarus Project
3) The Shadow Broker subverts Wilson to spy for him and send data on the Project
The Shadow Broker gained info on the Lazarus Project instead of receiving financial gain from the corpse. Thus "offset" Cerberus didn't make a dime off this. The Shadow Broker likely didn't either, as he was taking a wait and see approach to Shep's long-term survival.[/quote]
[quote]has been offset by data gathered from the Lazarus Project.[/quote]
Really? So the SB didn't make money because of the scientific info from the project, but what exactly?
[quote]Shepard is not the Grey Warden of Reapers. He was an N7 marine with two sidekicks. They, by putting down Saren stopped Sovereign. The visions were what set him/her on the path to this.[/quote]
Shepard was the only one with the other unique abilities to bring down an entire army of geth by him or herself, defeat Saren, and Sovereign.
[quote]You are correct in the second and third assessments. And I say (again) if either of those reasons were cited by TIM as to why Shepard was brought back, I'd accept them.[/quote]
"We wanted you to be as you were as when you defeated Sovereign"
"You are unique. Not just in ability or what you have experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You are more than a soldier - you are a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one of them. They have to respect that"
[quote]But as for the first...In my canon playthrough, Ashley and Wrex would beg to disagree that Shep was the "only one" to take a Reaper. Heck,. Joker and Admiral Hackett may disagree too, though Shep was certainly instrumental.[/quote]
He was the leader, who organized the attack, and the one who took Sovereign's shields down.
[quote]Okay, how about the ability to return from death, even at great cost, should be treated with a degree of wonder and disbelief. Given that it and taxes are the great certainties of life, the ability to defy it is quite literally the stuff myths and legends are made of. People should be curious abut it. Shepard. Shepard's friends and acquaintances. Those of a scientific or philosophical mindset. By taking it seriously, I mean there should be an exploration into what this means. For Shepard. For humanity. For the galaxy as a whole. This is not how ME2 handled the Lazarus Project. If Shepard's deth had been faked and he had been in a batarian prison for the two years, it would not have made a substantive difference to the story's progression (imo)[/quote]
That's still definitely not an explanation.
Not our topic, as I have said in the past.
[quote]Miranda says the entire point of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard. Okay, so does that mean the Project would only work for Shepard for some reason? (perhaps the Cipher did something more to his mind?) If so what is that feature? If not, would/could TIM bring back valued agents/loved ones if he could justify the cost?[/quote]
And? It has been stated that the LP was designed solely for Shepard. It's a fact by now, why do you need further emphasis?
[quote]You realize we're arguing a purely hypothetical plot point that doesn't actually exist here, right? But if Cerberus were to bend its efforts into finding a beacon, succeed, and get a bunch of agents killed in doing so (as they inevitably would) TIM might want to have someone on hand who could access said beacon and interpret the visions in the hopes of gaining more information about the Reapers.[/quote]
Well...it would certainly be a good idea to send that beacon to Shepard if it was the reason why he was resurrected. Cerberus didn't during the duration of ME2 or Arrival. And that's pretty much a year post resurrection.
[quote]We know that. But Shepard has potentially been all over the galaxy running Saren down. Who knows what else was picked up? Or what else might have been in the beacon visions. Again, purely hypothetical.[/quote]
One would hope that Cerberus would do some digging before resurrecting Shepard over the suspicion of him or her having intel. After all, they could track down most of his or her team and ask them about it.
[quote]"This magic rock rejuvenates human tissue even to the point of restoring brain activity and lost memories. All you have to do is sprinkle diamond dust on it and pass an electric current through it"
Just show me the frakking magic rocks! [/quote]
Off the top of my head, I can remember that Jules Verne gave partial explanations for his science fictioney predictions of the future, many on which he was correct.
So, there is that.
[quote]Technology in the ME universe has pretty much plateaued. The Lazarus Project is a massive leap forward. Where did it come from?[/quote]
Billions of credits? Multiple years of research? Cellular regenaration? It's there in ME1. Cybernetics? They are there as well. Switching the body back on? Well, you need a gap to fill in order to make a breakthrough.
[quote]This is more than a dog chewing on a puzzle piece. This is likely more akin to throwing your (powered up) laptop with a cracked case into a pool, letting it sit there for a few weeks, then fish it out and try to get it working again.
Only more so.[/quote]
I am sure that sending my laptop to the best scientists along with a few billion credits would be enough to fix it.
[quote]All space magic in the ME universe can ultimately be traced to the Reapers. They are Sufficiently Advanced. So in a sense, it's all the same "type" of magic. By putting the Lazarus Project under that umbrella, it simply joins the ranks of the rest of the magic, it's just connected in a way we can't see yet.
If humans developed it, then it becomes a whole new brand of magic, which is an important point in itself.[/quote]
The only magic that originates from them are the Mass Relays.
FTL? Ammonia-based biology? Eggs that last for centuries? Barriers? Eezo? Medi-gel? Omni-gel?
[quote]It makes no sense to have a loathing for Deus Ex Machina?
If overcoming a massive obstacle such as death is a necessity, then we should see what a massive obstacle it is to surmount. "I think I'll invent a Cure for Death, Be back in a couple of years" is not the way to go about it in a story.[/quote]
Except that it would have been a deus ex machina if it was a necessity. Which it wasn't. Because if BioWare wanted us to do so, we would still stay with the Alliance for a couple of years.
That's why it's a plot device.
[quote]True. But if Mass Effect 1 had made more of a deal about modern medicine being able to regrow organs, More use of cybernetics in medicine (augmented soldiers, artificial limbs and organs, etc) The Lazarus Project wouldn't have seemed so out of place (Yes! We finally cracked how to restore brain functionality! That was the last piece of the puzzle!). ME1 showed a greater degree in curing diseases and removing genetic defects But little on cybernetics aside from biotics and computer interfaces (or being buddies with the Reapers). And almost nothing on cellular regeneration. At least not for humans.[/quote]
Cybernetics are there. Regeneration? It's certainly there. It's called medi-gel.
[quote]Does the Charon Relay count as a foreshadowed scientific discovery? [/quote]
Nope, it's a Mass Relay. There's no foreshadowing on the relays themselves and the ability to go faster than FTL engines.
While the term "dead" comes up it is in a very casual manner. Even when Shepard acknowledges that he/she was dead, nobody treats it like a big deal, beyond simply not expecting to see Shepard. "Shepard! I thought you were dead" ends up carrying all the weight of "Shepard! I thought you were out shopping!"
RE: Wrex, he likely only heard rumors of Shepard's death and didn't believe them. Notice he's cluesless as to the circumstances:
Wrex: Now Shepard, what brings you here? How's the Normandy?
Shepard: Destroyed in a Collector surprise attack. I ended up spaced.
Wrex: Well, you look good. Ah the benefits of a redundant nervous system!
SHepard: Yeah, humans don't have that
Wrex: Oh, it must have been painful. then.[/quote]
Really? I thought that the discussion with Wrex was one of the most natural ones. Wrex says that he knew that "the void couldn't keep Shepard forever" or something like that. I really doubt having a sophisticated discussion about death with Wrex. Not saying that he is stupid, it's just not his style. He is, laconic, if you wish.
In any case, we are once again going off-topic. Your complaints are valid, but I don't see how this relates to an explanation that respects death.
[quote]Funny, I was going to cite that as an example. Yes that should have sent alarms going off in Nihlus' head. But at the risk of repeating myself, this was likely a cost-cutting measure to only give Saren a single avatar. Pre-Virmire, I'm sure he was supposed to look like an ordinary turian.[/quote]
I doubt it actually.
They could use his head on any NPC bodies for zero cost. I think that Mac Walters mention something about the cybernetic implant, but I can't remember what exactly. Anyway, I don't think that it's too far fetched to consider it as cannon. After all, Nihlus had never seen a geth, for Saren to have a synthetic arm shouldn't make less sense than him having arrived at the spaceport before him.
[quote]I looked through the first page, figuring those would be the most relevant hits.
Virtually all the entries are about A) the Reapers (Dragon's Teeth, husks, Saren's implants)
the Collectors or C) the Lazarus Project and Shepard's own cybernetics. Morlan's mention of cybernetics is from his "male enhancement" spam message, and thus dubious at best. Virtually all mention of cybernetics among the Council races seem to be biotic amps or implanted interfaces for omnitools.[/quote]Fine then. If you are going to go all the way to install biotic amps and implanted sensors, why not go ahead and make more enhancements? What about blind people? Shouldn't they have cybernetic eyes in the future?
[quote]An omnitool interface installed in your hand or arm is one thing. I have yet to encounter anyone not working for the Reapers who has glowing red eyes.[/quote]
It's a bit funny actually. Now that you bring that up, TIM's eyes are glowing blue.
And don't make the mistake to assume that the Reaper Artifact in Evolution istalled them. Everything seems to point out that they were installed surgically. And no one comments on them, either, even Eva, his human companion.
[quote]"Define human" is exactly what I'm getting at. Shepard is now partly synthetic. In a galaxy suspicious and fearful of synthetic life shouldn't that mean something? Even if Shepard still is "Shepard"?[/quote]
But, the only visible synthetic part are the eyes, and the scars, under the right circumstances.
Saren and TIM already have those. Nihlus and the Council, along with everyone else don't even notice them, when it comes to Saren.
[quote]Mentioned, but not reacted to. Dead hero comes back to life and gets...discounts at the Citadel? C-Sec hardly bats an eye. One would think Mordin at least would have taken an interest. Toombs at least recongizes Shepard as part of his unit. Ash asks what Torfan was like.[/quote]
I can come up with more mentions, if you wish.
[quote]Yeah I see it. My response: "Dat ego". Nothing there says Wilson was anything but a big fish on a team of scientists and operatives. Or he was in his own mind (though there is likely some truth to it)[/quote]
Okay, so what would convince you? Why would Wilson be happy about the technolodgical breakthrough that he stole from elsewhere? Where is any evidence to point to that. All info from BioWare has been firm and clear. Cerberus recovered the body eventually and created the Lazarus Project solely for Commander Shepard/
[quote]1 Yes. And no one else seems to think so, despite seeing living proof of it walking around[/quote]
Really? I actually thought that it was pretty boring how you had to tell to everyone "Blah blah blah and Cerberus rebuild me."
[quote]2 Claims being the operative word here. [/quote]
Addressed above.
[quote]1) The Shadow Broker lost Shepard's corpse, and the reward the Collectors would have paid for it
2) Cerberus, with Shepard's corpse, started the Lazarus Project
3) The Shadow Broker subverts Wilson to spy for him and send data on the Project
The Shadow Broker gained info on the Lazarus Project instead of receiving financial gain from the corpse. Thus "offset" Cerberus didn't make a dime off this. The Shadow Broker likely didn't either, as he was taking a wait and see approach to Shep's long-term survival.[/quote]
[quote]has been offset by data gathered from the Lazarus Project.[/quote]
Really? So the SB didn't make money because of the scientific info from the project, but what exactly?
[quote]Shepard is not the Grey Warden of Reapers. He was an N7 marine with two sidekicks. They, by putting down Saren stopped Sovereign. The visions were what set him/her on the path to this.[/quote]
Shepard was the only one with the other unique abilities to bring down an entire army of geth by him or herself, defeat Saren, and Sovereign.
[quote]You are correct in the second and third assessments. And I say (again) if either of those reasons were cited by TIM as to why Shepard was brought back, I'd accept them.[/quote]
"We wanted you to be as you were as when you defeated Sovereign"
"You are unique. Not just in ability or what you have experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You are more than a soldier - you are a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one of them. They have to respect that"
[quote]But as for the first...In my canon playthrough, Ashley and Wrex would beg to disagree that Shep was the "only one" to take a Reaper. Heck,. Joker and Admiral Hackett may disagree too, though Shep was certainly instrumental.[/quote]
He was the leader, who organized the attack, and the one who took Sovereign's shields down.
[quote]Okay, how about the ability to return from death, even at great cost, should be treated with a degree of wonder and disbelief. Given that it and taxes are the great certainties of life, the ability to defy it is quite literally the stuff myths and legends are made of. People should be curious abut it. Shepard. Shepard's friends and acquaintances. Those of a scientific or philosophical mindset. By taking it seriously, I mean there should be an exploration into what this means. For Shepard. For humanity. For the galaxy as a whole. This is not how ME2 handled the Lazarus Project. If Shepard's deth had been faked and he had been in a batarian prison for the two years, it would not have made a substantive difference to the story's progression (imo)[/quote]
That's still definitely not an explanation.
Not our topic, as I have said in the past.
[quote]Miranda says the entire point of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard. Okay, so does that mean the Project would only work for Shepard for some reason? (perhaps the Cipher did something more to his mind?) If so what is that feature? If not, would/could TIM bring back valued agents/loved ones if he could justify the cost?[/quote]
And? It has been stated that the LP was designed solely for Shepard. It's a fact by now, why do you need further emphasis?
[quote]You realize we're arguing a purely hypothetical plot point that doesn't actually exist here, right? But if Cerberus were to bend its efforts into finding a beacon, succeed, and get a bunch of agents killed in doing so (as they inevitably would) TIM might want to have someone on hand who could access said beacon and interpret the visions in the hopes of gaining more information about the Reapers.[/quote]
Well...it would certainly be a good idea to send that beacon to Shepard if it was the reason why he was resurrected. Cerberus didn't during the duration of ME2 or Arrival. And that's pretty much a year post resurrection.
[quote]We know that. But Shepard has potentially been all over the galaxy running Saren down. Who knows what else was picked up? Or what else might have been in the beacon visions. Again, purely hypothetical.[/quote]
One would hope that Cerberus would do some digging before resurrecting Shepard over the suspicion of him or her having intel. After all, they could track down most of his or her team and ask them about it.
[quote]"This magic rock rejuvenates human tissue even to the point of restoring brain activity and lost memories. All you have to do is sprinkle diamond dust on it and pass an electric current through it"
Just show me the frakking magic rocks! [/quote]
Off the top of my head, I can remember that Jules Verne gave partial explanations for his science fictioney predictions of the future, many on which he was correct.
So, there is that.
[quote]Technology in the ME universe has pretty much plateaued. The Lazarus Project is a massive leap forward. Where did it come from?[/quote]
Billions of credits? Multiple years of research? Cellular regenaration? It's there in ME1. Cybernetics? They are there as well. Switching the body back on? Well, you need a gap to fill in order to make a breakthrough.
[quote]This is more than a dog chewing on a puzzle piece. This is likely more akin to throwing your (powered up) laptop with a cracked case into a pool, letting it sit there for a few weeks, then fish it out and try to get it working again.
Only more so.[/quote]
I am sure that sending my laptop to the best scientists along with a few billion credits would be enough to fix it.
[quote]All space magic in the ME universe can ultimately be traced to the Reapers. They are Sufficiently Advanced. So in a sense, it's all the same "type" of magic. By putting the Lazarus Project under that umbrella, it simply joins the ranks of the rest of the magic, it's just connected in a way we can't see yet.
If humans developed it, then it becomes a whole new brand of magic, which is an important point in itself.[/quote]
The only magic that originates from them are the Mass Relays.
FTL? Ammonia-based biology? Eggs that last for centuries? Barriers? Eezo? Medi-gel? Omni-gel?
[quote]It makes no sense to have a loathing for Deus Ex Machina?
If overcoming a massive obstacle such as death is a necessity, then we should see what a massive obstacle it is to surmount. "I think I'll invent a Cure for Death, Be back in a couple of years" is not the way to go about it in a story.[/quote]
Except that it would have been a deus ex machina if it was a necessity. Which it wasn't. Because if BioWare wanted us to do so, we would still stay with the Alliance for a couple of years.
That's why it's a plot device.
[quote]True. But if Mass Effect 1 had made more of a deal about modern medicine being able to regrow organs, More use of cybernetics in medicine (augmented soldiers, artificial limbs and organs, etc) The Lazarus Project wouldn't have seemed so out of place (Yes! We finally cracked how to restore brain functionality! That was the last piece of the puzzle!). ME1 showed a greater degree in curing diseases and removing genetic defects But little on cybernetics aside from biotics and computer interfaces (or being buddies with the Reapers). And almost nothing on cellular regeneration. At least not for humans.[/quote]
Cybernetics are there. Regeneration? It's certainly there. It's called medi-gel.
[quote]Does the Charon Relay count as a foreshadowed scientific discovery? [/quote]
Nope, it's a Mass Relay. There's no foreshadowing on the relays themselves and the ability to go faster than FTL engines.
#156
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 07:37
Phaedon
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And then ME3 was rated AO and banned from Australia and Germany.Destroy Raiden wrote...
After Jacob telling me what I looked like I'm hesitant to view the photos but at the same time it's necessary for me anyway I'd accept more shep was really dead and not say some clone everyone is trying to convince is shep.
#157
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 07:46
Inquisitor Recon
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In my opinion there is no reason it should be expanded upon further. It seemed to simply be a rather absurd plot point to move the storyline ahead two years and get you working for Cerberus. Instead of Shepard simply being badly injured and in some sort of coma, the writers took it to the extreme just so they could say Shepard came back from death.
Any sort of "No Shepard, you are the reapers" moment resulting from the Lazarus Project would be plain awful. In my opinion it would be impossible to explain just how Cerberus did it, seeing as the whole scenario is pretty much impossible. So TIM's space magic will have to suffice.
I'd imagine Shepard commenting on whatever afterlife he may have gone to would offend some overly-sensitive types, so nobody really cares he died, or believes it.
Any sort of "No Shepard, you are the reapers" moment resulting from the Lazarus Project would be plain awful. In my opinion it would be impossible to explain just how Cerberus did it, seeing as the whole scenario is pretty much impossible. So TIM's space magic will have to suffice.
I'd imagine Shepard commenting on whatever afterlife he may have gone to would offend some overly-sensitive types, so nobody really cares he died, or believes it.
#158
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 08:06
Iakus
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[quote]Phaedon wrote...
I doubt it actually.
They could use his head on any NPC bodies for zero cost. I think that Mac Walters mention something about the cybernetic implant, but I can't remember what exactly. Anyway, I don't think that it's too far fetched to consider it as cannon. After all, Nihlus had never seen a geth, for Saren to have a synthetic arm shouldn't make less sense than him having arrived at the spaceport before him.[/quote]
Well, unless someone of authority makes a definitive statement, we'll just have to live with our interpretations then.
[quote]Fine then. If you are going to go all the way to install biotic amps and implanted sensors, why not go ahead and make more enhancements? What about blind people? Shouldn't they have cybernetic eyes in the future?[/quote]
No objection to this as such. My objection is we are given no indication that this exists. We see no scarred veterans with prosthetics (wouldn't Zaeed look cool with a glowing red eye?) There's virtually nothing in the codex. No one brings them up save amps. So we go from "sure, cybernetic limbs and organs could exist in this world, I guess" to "We've brought a corpse back to life with the power of SCIENCE!"
[quote]It's a bit funny actually. Now that you bring that up, TIM's eyes are glowing blue.And don't make the mistake to assume that the Reaper Artifact in Evolution istalled them. Everything seems to point out that they were installed surgically. And no one comments on them, either, even Eva, his human companion.[/quote]
Joker: "The Illusive Man has some crazy looking eyes for a guy trying to lay low."
Jacob: "Is there anything human in those eyes?"
[quote]But, the only visible synthetic part are the eyes, and the scars, under the right circumstances.quoteSaren and TIM already have those. Nihlus and the Council, along with everyone else don't even notice them, when it comes to Saren.[/quote]See above. I clearly interpret Saren differently, and people DO react to TIM's eyes.
[quote]I can come up with more mentions, if you wish.[/quote]
Please do. Show me someone who's curious as to how Shepard can be alive. Someone who's dumbfounded at talking not just to someone they haven't seen in two years, but to a walking corpse. Tali on Freedom's Progress and maybe Nasana Dantius are the only ones I can think of.
[quote]Okay, so what would convince you? Why would Wilson be happy about the technolodgical breakthrough that he stole from elsewhere? Where is any evidence to point to that. All info from BioWare has been firm and clear. Cerberus recovered the body eventually and created the Lazarus Project solely for Commander Shepard/[/quote]
He'd be happy because they managed to reverse-engineer a piece of technology they didn't understand. He'd be happy because they managed to pull off some tricky pieces of surgery never performed on a human before. HE'd be happy that they managed to resurrect a human for the first time via the power of SCIENCE! It's still a monumental breakthrough whether they developed it or copied it.
[quote]
Really? I actually thought that it was pretty boring how you had to tell to everyone "Blah blah blah and Cerberus rebuild me."[/quote]
And after telling them "Yep, I died" they act perfectly normal. There are two places where Shepard can say something other than "I died" (Horizon: "I was in a coma" and C-Sec "I was declared MIA")The responses are not significantly different from those who you told you died.
[quote]Really? So the SB didn't make money because of the scientific info from the project, but what exactly?[/quote]
He gained information about the Lazarus Project. Potentially very profitable in the long term. He was going to wait a year to make sure the process was truly viable.
[quote]Shepard was the only one with the other unique abilities to bring down an entire army of geth by him or herself, defeat Saren, and Sovereign.[/quote]And what are these unique abilities? Besides being the Player Character?[quote]"We wanted you to be as you were as when you defeated Sovereign""You are unique. Not just in ability or what you have experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You are more than a soldier - you are a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one of them. They have to respect that"[/quote]
Bolded for emphasis. Note the Cipher and the visions are never even mentioned. Bringing Shepard back sounds more symbolic than practical.
[quote]He was the leader, who organized the attack, and the one who took Sovereign's shields down.[/quote]Shepard found Ilos and the Conduit (thanks to the beacon, the Cipher, etc) and drove a Mako through it to chase down Saren. He eventually killed the Saren sock-puppet, which was important. But the real weapons he used were in his/her mind. Now they're gone or irrelevant.
[quote]
And? It has been stated that the LP was designed solely for Shepard. It's a fact by now, why do you need further emphasis?[/quote]
To know how inextricable the two are. Can this be repeated?
[quote].Well...it would certainly be a good idea to send that beacon to Shepard if it was the reason why he was resurrected. Cerberus didn't during the duration of ME2 or Arrival. And that's pretty much a year post resurrection.[/quote]Yes. And the fact that this did not come up shows that the visions and the Cipher were pretty much meaningless in the reasons to bring Shep back. That which makes Shep truly unique and not simply exceptioanlly skilled or determined.
[quote][Off the top of my head, I can remember that Jules Verne gave partial explanations for his science fictioney predictions of the future, many on which he was correct.[/quote]So what's wrong with having a partial science-fictiony prediction for jumpstarting a brain? It's not like anyone will be around in two hundred years to laugh at Bioware. And if they're right, they're geniuses!
[quote]Billions of credits? Multiple years of research? Cellular regenaration? It's there in ME1. Cybernetics? They are there as well. Switching the body back on? Well, you need a gap to fill in order to make a breakthrough.[/quote]So what's the gap? Throwing money at problems isn't much of an answer. Particularly since the only cybernetics we've seen in the game thus far have been pretty limited in scope.
[quote]
I am sure that sending my laptop to the best scientists along with a few billion credits would be enough to fix it.[/quote]
Clearly you have a lot more faith in modern science than I do
[quote]
FTL? Ammonia-based biology? Eggs that last for centuries? Barriers? Eezo? Medi-gel? Omni-gel?[/quote]
FTL drives use eezo cores and employ Mass Effect fields. Reaper technology
Barriers: Again mass effect fields. Reaper tech
Eezo, the "magic rocks" of Reaper tech
Rachni egg: Was in cryogenic suspension
Medi-gel Okay it's goofy. But I consider it a gameplay mechanic more than anything else. A necessary evil.
Omnigel point taken.
Ammonia based life: To their credit, Bioware keeps the Volus in enviroment suits and doesn't try to make them LIs (yet:unsure:)
[quote]
Except that it would have been a deus ex machina if it was a necessity. Which it wasn't. Because if BioWare wanted us to do so, we would still stay with the Alliance for a couple of years.
That's why it's a plot device.[/quote]
It became a necessity when it was decided to kill Shepard off rather than do anything else to explain the drop off the map fro two years.
[quote]Cybernetics are there. Regeneration? It's certainly there. It's called medi-gel.[/quote]But not nearly to the degree needed. Medigel is used for battlefield injuries and first aid. The cybernetics we've seen have been very limited in scope.
I doubt it actually.
They could use his head on any NPC bodies for zero cost. I think that Mac Walters mention something about the cybernetic implant, but I can't remember what exactly. Anyway, I don't think that it's too far fetched to consider it as cannon. After all, Nihlus had never seen a geth, for Saren to have a synthetic arm shouldn't make less sense than him having arrived at the spaceport before him.[/quote]
Well, unless someone of authority makes a definitive statement, we'll just have to live with our interpretations then.
[quote]Fine then. If you are going to go all the way to install biotic amps and implanted sensors, why not go ahead and make more enhancements? What about blind people? Shouldn't they have cybernetic eyes in the future?[/quote]
No objection to this as such. My objection is we are given no indication that this exists. We see no scarred veterans with prosthetics (wouldn't Zaeed look cool with a glowing red eye?) There's virtually nothing in the codex. No one brings them up save amps. So we go from "sure, cybernetic limbs and organs could exist in this world, I guess" to "We've brought a corpse back to life with the power of SCIENCE!"
[quote]It's a bit funny actually. Now that you bring that up, TIM's eyes are glowing blue.And don't make the mistake to assume that the Reaper Artifact in Evolution istalled them. Everything seems to point out that they were installed surgically. And no one comments on them, either, even Eva, his human companion.[/quote]
Joker: "The Illusive Man has some crazy looking eyes for a guy trying to lay low."
Jacob: "Is there anything human in those eyes?"
[quote]But, the only visible synthetic part are the eyes, and the scars, under the right circumstances.quoteSaren and TIM already have those. Nihlus and the Council, along with everyone else don't even notice them, when it comes to Saren.[/quote]See above. I clearly interpret Saren differently, and people DO react to TIM's eyes.
[quote]I can come up with more mentions, if you wish.[/quote]
Please do. Show me someone who's curious as to how Shepard can be alive. Someone who's dumbfounded at talking not just to someone they haven't seen in two years, but to a walking corpse. Tali on Freedom's Progress and maybe Nasana Dantius are the only ones I can think of.
[quote]Okay, so what would convince you? Why would Wilson be happy about the technolodgical breakthrough that he stole from elsewhere? Where is any evidence to point to that. All info from BioWare has been firm and clear. Cerberus recovered the body eventually and created the Lazarus Project solely for Commander Shepard/[/quote]
He'd be happy because they managed to reverse-engineer a piece of technology they didn't understand. He'd be happy because they managed to pull off some tricky pieces of surgery never performed on a human before. HE'd be happy that they managed to resurrect a human for the first time via the power of SCIENCE! It's still a monumental breakthrough whether they developed it or copied it.
[quote]
Really? I actually thought that it was pretty boring how you had to tell to everyone "Blah blah blah and Cerberus rebuild me."[/quote]
And after telling them "Yep, I died" they act perfectly normal. There are two places where Shepard can say something other than "I died" (Horizon: "I was in a coma" and C-Sec "I was declared MIA")The responses are not significantly different from those who you told you died.
[quote]Really? So the SB didn't make money because of the scientific info from the project, but what exactly?[/quote]
He gained information about the Lazarus Project. Potentially very profitable in the long term. He was going to wait a year to make sure the process was truly viable.
[quote]Shepard was the only one with the other unique abilities to bring down an entire army of geth by him or herself, defeat Saren, and Sovereign.[/quote]And what are these unique abilities? Besides being the Player Character?[quote]"We wanted you to be as you were as when you defeated Sovereign""You are unique. Not just in ability or what you have experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You are more than a soldier - you are a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one of them. They have to respect that"[/quote]
Bolded for emphasis. Note the Cipher and the visions are never even mentioned. Bringing Shepard back sounds more symbolic than practical.
[quote]He was the leader, who organized the attack, and the one who took Sovereign's shields down.[/quote]Shepard found Ilos and the Conduit (thanks to the beacon, the Cipher, etc) and drove a Mako through it to chase down Saren. He eventually killed the Saren sock-puppet, which was important. But the real weapons he used were in his/her mind. Now they're gone or irrelevant.
[quote]
And? It has been stated that the LP was designed solely for Shepard. It's a fact by now, why do you need further emphasis?[/quote]
To know how inextricable the two are. Can this be repeated?
[quote].Well...it would certainly be a good idea to send that beacon to Shepard if it was the reason why he was resurrected. Cerberus didn't during the duration of ME2 or Arrival. And that's pretty much a year post resurrection.[/quote]Yes. And the fact that this did not come up shows that the visions and the Cipher were pretty much meaningless in the reasons to bring Shep back. That which makes Shep truly unique and not simply exceptioanlly skilled or determined.
[quote][Off the top of my head, I can remember that Jules Verne gave partial explanations for his science fictioney predictions of the future, many on which he was correct.[/quote]So what's wrong with having a partial science-fictiony prediction for jumpstarting a brain? It's not like anyone will be around in two hundred years to laugh at Bioware. And if they're right, they're geniuses!
[quote]Billions of credits? Multiple years of research? Cellular regenaration? It's there in ME1. Cybernetics? They are there as well. Switching the body back on? Well, you need a gap to fill in order to make a breakthrough.[/quote]So what's the gap? Throwing money at problems isn't much of an answer. Particularly since the only cybernetics we've seen in the game thus far have been pretty limited in scope.
[quote]
I am sure that sending my laptop to the best scientists along with a few billion credits would be enough to fix it.[/quote]
Clearly you have a lot more faith in modern science than I do
[quote]
FTL? Ammonia-based biology? Eggs that last for centuries? Barriers? Eezo? Medi-gel? Omni-gel?[/quote]
FTL drives use eezo cores and employ Mass Effect fields. Reaper technology
Barriers: Again mass effect fields. Reaper tech
Eezo, the "magic rocks" of Reaper tech
Rachni egg: Was in cryogenic suspension
Medi-gel Okay it's goofy. But I consider it a gameplay mechanic more than anything else. A necessary evil.
Omnigel point taken.
Ammonia based life: To their credit, Bioware keeps the Volus in enviroment suits and doesn't try to make them LIs (yet:unsure:)
[quote]
Except that it would have been a deus ex machina if it was a necessity. Which it wasn't. Because if BioWare wanted us to do so, we would still stay with the Alliance for a couple of years.
That's why it's a plot device.[/quote]
It became a necessity when it was decided to kill Shepard off rather than do anything else to explain the drop off the map fro two years.
[quote]Cybernetics are there. Regeneration? It's certainly there. It's called medi-gel.[/quote]But not nearly to the degree needed. Medigel is used for battlefield injuries and first aid. The cybernetics we've seen have been very limited in scope.
Modifié par iakus, 28 juin 2011 - 09:08 .
#160
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 09:08
Iakus
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Phaedon wrote...
Accidental post?
Yep. Wasn't done yet.
#161
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 09:13
Iakus
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ReconTeam wrote...
In my opinion there is no reason it should be expanded upon further. It seemed to simply be a rather absurd plot point to move the storyline ahead two years and get you working for Cerberus. Instead of Shepard simply being badly injured and in some sort of coma, the writers took it to the extreme just so they could say Shepard came back from death.
Any sort of "No Shepard, you are the reapers" moment resulting from the Lazarus Project would be plain awful. In my opinion it would be impossible to explain just how Cerberus did it, seeing as the whole scenario is pretty much impossible. So TIM's space magic will have to suffice.
I'd imagine Shepard commenting on whatever afterlife he may have gone to would offend some overly-sensitive types, so nobody really cares he died, or believes it.
Unfortunately, while I agree it was an absurd idea, it is now out there, and needs to be dealt with. Or at least minimize the damage. Ignoring it means it's still out there, watching...
As for an afterlife, I'd imagine it being Shep and Saren chatting about how Shep's work's not done yet, how Saren failed to stop the Reapers, so now it falls on Shepard, who must do whatever it takes to save the galaxy. Leave it vague as to whether it was a vision of the afterlife or the delusions of an oxygen-starved mind.
#162
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 09:16
Whatever42
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I think we know how we looked (they show the body scans). We know that we had a lot of broken bones. We know that our tissue was grey. We know that they used nanobots to build rebuild us cell by cell. We know that we required bio-synthetic neural regeneration. We know that there was a lot of questions to whether "the memories were there".
The big questions revolve around how they restored Shepard's mind and personality. I would absolutely like that answered. I can make up some reasonable answers (detailed brain scans from treatment on Citadel + some fiction created by TIM) but I'd like to know what the heck bio-synthetic fusion is and why we have glowy scars.
I can live without knowing and simply fill in the blanks but it has the sense of being important so I hope it ties in to something interesting.
The big questions revolve around how they restored Shepard's mind and personality. I would absolutely like that answered. I can make up some reasonable answers (detailed brain scans from treatment on Citadel + some fiction created by TIM) but I'd like to know what the heck bio-synthetic fusion is and why we have glowy scars.
I can live without knowing and simply fill in the blanks but it has the sense of being important so I hope it ties in to something interesting.
#163
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 09:42
Phaedon
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[quote]iakus wrote...
Well, unless someone of authority makes a definitive statement, we'll just have to live with our interpretations then.[/quote]
Do we?
Nihlus and the Council had no reaction whatsoever, and why is that not supposed to be canon and yet the red glowy eyes are?
[quote]No objection to this as such. My objection is we are given no indication that this exists. We see no scarred veterans with prosthetics (wouldn't Zaeed look cool with a glowing red eye?) There's virtually nothing in the codex. No one brings them up save amps. So we go from "sure, cybernetic limbs and organs could exist in this world, I guess" to "We've brought a corpse back to life with the power of SCIENCE!"[/quote]Except that TIM's eyes are surgical prosthetics. And he is shown before the resurrection scene, along with Saren.
[quote]Joker: "The Illusive Man has some crazy looking eyes for a guy trying to lay low."
Jacob: "Is there anything human in those eyes?"[/quote]
...and? They comment on TIM's eyes being glowy and blue, not "Oh, look, he has cybernetics! Something which we are definitely not accostumed to for the eyes!"[/quote][quote]See above. I clearly interpret Saren differently, and people DO react to TIM's eyes.[/quote]See above. Why you interpret Saren differently but not Shepard I can't understand.
[quote]Please do. Show me someone who's curious as to how Shepard can be alive. Someone who's dumbfounded at talking not just to someone they haven't seen in two years, but to a walking corpse. Tali on Freedom's Progress and maybe Nasana Dantius are the only ones I can think of.[/quote]
[quote]Mentioned, but not reacted to. Dead hero comes back to life and gets...discounts at the Citadel? C-Sec hardly bats an eye. One would think Mordin at least would have taken an interest. Toombs at least recongizes Shepard as part of his unit. Ash asks what Torfan was like.[/quote]
Huh? You are contradicting yourself there.[/quote][quote]He'd be happy because they managed to reverse-engineer a piece of technology they didn't understand. He'd be happy because they managed to pull off some tricky pieces of surgery never performed on a human before. HE'd be happy that they managed to resurrect a human for the first time via the power of SCIENCE! It's still a monumental breakthrough whether they developed it or copied it.[/quote]
A piece of technolodgy which they don't understand? That's your own theory, there's no connection whatsoever to Reaper technolodgy whatsoever, and to link them is nothing but wishful thinking. Your argument is still self-contradictory. They copied the ability to resurrect people, and yet it's a breakthrough, and the info from which made a lot of money. Right. Or the fact that they need billions of credits and the best scientists to copy/paste some one else's research. That's an absolutely baseless statement. The LP is refered to as a breakthrough, and it is.[/quote]
[quote]And after telling them "Yep, I died" they act perfectly normal. There are two places where Shepard can say something other than "I died" (Horizon: "I was in a coma" and C-Sec "I was declared MIA")The responses are not significantly different from those who you told you died.[/quote]
"Yep, I died"=/= "Cerberus rebuild me". And that supposedly makes the Project not a breakthrough. When I mentioned "that", I meant the lack of responses, which actually exist.
I have yet to see one argument so far that is on topic, btw.
[quote]He gained information about the Lazarus Project. Potentially very profitable in the long term. He was going to wait a year to make sure the process was truly viable.[/quote]...scientific info, then?
[quote]And what are these unique abilities? Besides being the Player Character?[/quote]
The ones that I have listed half a dozen times already.[/quote][quote]"We wanted you to be as you were as when you defeated Sovereign""You are unique. Not just in ability or what you have experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You are more than a soldier - you are a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one of them. They have to respect that"[/quote]
[quote]Bolded for emphasis. Note the Cipher and the visions are never even mentioned. Bringing Shepard back sounds more symbolic than practical.[/quote]
[quote]Not just in ability or what you have experienced,[/quote]
[quote]Not just[/quote]
Not just usually means, "That was not the sole reason", you know.
[quote]Shepard found Ilos and the Conduit (thanks to the beacon, the Cipher, etc) and drove a Mako through it to chase down Saren. He eventually killed the Saren sock-puppet, which was important. But the real weapons he used were in his/her mind. Now they're gone or irrelevant. [/quote]
How you can come up with the "But the Cipher is now gone!" argument when we have settled on it pages ago I really can't understand either. But what I can certainly not even comprehend is how being targetted as unique by the Reapers is now irrelevant.[/quote]
[quote]To know how inextricable the two are. Can this be repeated?[/quote]
No.
It has already been explained once, there is no need for it to be explained in the exact same way twice.
[quote].Yes. And the fact that this did not come up shows that the visions and the Cipher were pretty much meaningless in the reasons to bring Shep back. That which makes Shep truly unique and not simply exceptioanlly skilled or determined.[/quote]
The fact that your theory makes no sense makes the Cipher irrelevant?
Your entire theory is based on Cerberus finding multiple beacons and having several casualties, and that's the reason that they brought back Shepard.
But when that is clearly contradicted, it's not that your theory was incorrect from the start, it's just that the visions and the Cipher are meaningless. They are not, meaningless, for the Reapers at least. It's why Shepard was targetted by the beginning in ME1, as Shepard is the only one in the galaxy who knows the entire truth about the Reapers.
[/quote][quote]So what's wrong with having a partial science-fictiony prediction for jumpstarting a brain? It's not like anyone will be around in two hundred years to laugh at Bioware. And if they're right, they're geniuses![/quote]...that's like asking Jules Verne to give you a partial answer for what kind of material the walls of submarines are made of.
Jules Verne gave partial answers for the "magic" he introduced. Why BioWare should do more than that you have yet to explain.
[quote]So what's the gap? Throwing money at problems isn't much of an answer. Particularly since the only cybernetics we've seen in the game thus far have been pretty limited in scope.[/quote]Cybernetic technolodgy is definitely there, so I don't see the point of you bringing it up. At all. Especially when you stated that none of this technolodgy, is even partially, "foreshadowed". The...gap, for the millionth time, is finding the switch that turns the body back on. Presumably, it's somewhere in the brain, and that's where most of LP was focused on.
[quote]Clearly you have a lot more faith in modern science than I do[/quote]
Poorly budgeted law enforcement agencies have made more miracles than you can imagine.
[quote]
FTL drives use eezo cores and employ Mass Effect fields. Reaper technology[/quote]
An element and a natural type of field can not be Reaper technolodgy, next.
[quote]Barriers: Again mass effect fields. Reaper tech[/quote]
Barriers are definitely not Reaper Tech. They were made based on Eezo.
[quote]Eezo, the "magic rocks" of Reaper tech[/quote]
If a bunch of neutrons bound together is Reaper tech, then I wonder what kind of tech hydrogen is.
[quote]Rachni egg: Was in cryogenic suspension[/quote]
Still magic.
[quote]Medi-gel Okay it's goofy. But I consider it a gameplay mechanic more than anything else. A necessary evil.[/quote]
Medi-gel is used in the books and it's use is partially explained.
[quote]Omnigel point taken. [/quote]
Okay.
[quote]Ammonia based life: To their credit, Bioware keeps the Volus in enviroment suits and doesn't try to make them LIs (yet:unsure:)[/quote]
Search 'agsii1' on YouTube. You will be surprised.
[quote]It became a necessity when it was decided to kill Shepard off rather than do anything else to explain the drop off the map fro two years.[/quote]
A plot device is a necessity to move the story? Yes, I am sure that we knew that. It doesn't become a deus ex machnina unless it isn't pre-planned.
[quote]But not nearly to the degree needed. Medigel is used for battlefield injuries and first aid. The cybernetics we've seen have been very limited in scope. [/quote]
And? Cybernetic technolodgy does exist, and nanobots that regenerate your cells also exist. Both are tech to exists, it's level is irrelevant.[/quote]
Well, unless someone of authority makes a definitive statement, we'll just have to live with our interpretations then.[/quote]
Do we?
Nihlus and the Council had no reaction whatsoever, and why is that not supposed to be canon and yet the red glowy eyes are?
[quote]No objection to this as such. My objection is we are given no indication that this exists. We see no scarred veterans with prosthetics (wouldn't Zaeed look cool with a glowing red eye?) There's virtually nothing in the codex. No one brings them up save amps. So we go from "sure, cybernetic limbs and organs could exist in this world, I guess" to "We've brought a corpse back to life with the power of SCIENCE!"[/quote]Except that TIM's eyes are surgical prosthetics. And he is shown before the resurrection scene, along with Saren.
[quote]Joker: "The Illusive Man has some crazy looking eyes for a guy trying to lay low."
Jacob: "Is there anything human in those eyes?"[/quote]
...and? They comment on TIM's eyes being glowy and blue, not "Oh, look, he has cybernetics! Something which we are definitely not accostumed to for the eyes!"[/quote][quote]See above. I clearly interpret Saren differently, and people DO react to TIM's eyes.[/quote]See above. Why you interpret Saren differently but not Shepard I can't understand.
[quote]Please do. Show me someone who's curious as to how Shepard can be alive. Someone who's dumbfounded at talking not just to someone they haven't seen in two years, but to a walking corpse. Tali on Freedom's Progress and maybe Nasana Dantius are the only ones I can think of.[/quote]
[quote]Mentioned, but not reacted to. Dead hero comes back to life and gets...discounts at the Citadel? C-Sec hardly bats an eye. One would think Mordin at least would have taken an interest. Toombs at least recongizes Shepard as part of his unit. Ash asks what Torfan was like.[/quote]
Huh? You are contradicting yourself there.[/quote][quote]He'd be happy because they managed to reverse-engineer a piece of technology they didn't understand. He'd be happy because they managed to pull off some tricky pieces of surgery never performed on a human before. HE'd be happy that they managed to resurrect a human for the first time via the power of SCIENCE! It's still a monumental breakthrough whether they developed it or copied it.[/quote]
A piece of technolodgy which they don't understand? That's your own theory, there's no connection whatsoever to Reaper technolodgy whatsoever, and to link them is nothing but wishful thinking. Your argument is still self-contradictory. They copied the ability to resurrect people, and yet it's a breakthrough, and the info from which made a lot of money. Right. Or the fact that they need billions of credits and the best scientists to copy/paste some one else's research. That's an absolutely baseless statement. The LP is refered to as a breakthrough, and it is.[/quote]
[quote]And after telling them "Yep, I died" they act perfectly normal. There are two places where Shepard can say something other than "I died" (Horizon: "I was in a coma" and C-Sec "I was declared MIA")The responses are not significantly different from those who you told you died.[/quote]
"Yep, I died"=/= "Cerberus rebuild me". And that supposedly makes the Project not a breakthrough. When I mentioned "that", I meant the lack of responses, which actually exist.
I have yet to see one argument so far that is on topic, btw.
[quote]He gained information about the Lazarus Project. Potentially very profitable in the long term. He was going to wait a year to make sure the process was truly viable.[/quote]...scientific info, then?
[quote]And what are these unique abilities? Besides being the Player Character?[/quote]
The ones that I have listed half a dozen times already.[/quote][quote]"We wanted you to be as you were as when you defeated Sovereign""You are unique. Not just in ability or what you have experienced, but in what you represent. You stood for humanity at a key moment. You are more than a soldier - you are a symbol. And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one of them. They have to respect that"[/quote]
[quote]Bolded for emphasis. Note the Cipher and the visions are never even mentioned. Bringing Shepard back sounds more symbolic than practical.[/quote]
[quote]Not just in ability or what you have experienced,[/quote]
[quote]Not just[/quote]
Not just usually means, "That was not the sole reason", you know.
[quote]Shepard found Ilos and the Conduit (thanks to the beacon, the Cipher, etc) and drove a Mako through it to chase down Saren. He eventually killed the Saren sock-puppet, which was important. But the real weapons he used were in his/her mind. Now they're gone or irrelevant. [/quote]
How you can come up with the "But the Cipher is now gone!" argument when we have settled on it pages ago I really can't understand either. But what I can certainly not even comprehend is how being targetted as unique by the Reapers is now irrelevant.[/quote]
[quote]To know how inextricable the two are. Can this be repeated?[/quote]
No.
It has already been explained once, there is no need for it to be explained in the exact same way twice.
[quote].Yes. And the fact that this did not come up shows that the visions and the Cipher were pretty much meaningless in the reasons to bring Shep back. That which makes Shep truly unique and not simply exceptioanlly skilled or determined.[/quote]
The fact that your theory makes no sense makes the Cipher irrelevant?
Your entire theory is based on Cerberus finding multiple beacons and having several casualties, and that's the reason that they brought back Shepard.
But when that is clearly contradicted, it's not that your theory was incorrect from the start, it's just that the visions and the Cipher are meaningless. They are not, meaningless, for the Reapers at least. It's why Shepard was targetted by the beginning in ME1, as Shepard is the only one in the galaxy who knows the entire truth about the Reapers.
[/quote][quote]So what's wrong with having a partial science-fictiony prediction for jumpstarting a brain? It's not like anyone will be around in two hundred years to laugh at Bioware. And if they're right, they're geniuses![/quote]...that's like asking Jules Verne to give you a partial answer for what kind of material the walls of submarines are made of.
Jules Verne gave partial answers for the "magic" he introduced. Why BioWare should do more than that you have yet to explain.
[quote]So what's the gap? Throwing money at problems isn't much of an answer. Particularly since the only cybernetics we've seen in the game thus far have been pretty limited in scope.[/quote]Cybernetic technolodgy is definitely there, so I don't see the point of you bringing it up. At all. Especially when you stated that none of this technolodgy, is even partially, "foreshadowed". The...gap, for the millionth time, is finding the switch that turns the body back on. Presumably, it's somewhere in the brain, and that's where most of LP was focused on.
[quote]Clearly you have a lot more faith in modern science than I do
[/quote]Poorly budgeted law enforcement agencies have made more miracles than you can imagine.
[quote]
FTL drives use eezo cores and employ Mass Effect fields. Reaper technology[/quote]
An element and a natural type of field can not be Reaper technolodgy, next.
[quote]Barriers: Again mass effect fields. Reaper tech[/quote]
Barriers are definitely not Reaper Tech. They were made based on Eezo.
[quote]Eezo, the "magic rocks" of Reaper tech[/quote]
If a bunch of neutrons bound together is Reaper tech, then I wonder what kind of tech hydrogen is.
[quote]Rachni egg: Was in cryogenic suspension[/quote]
Still magic.
[quote]Medi-gel Okay it's goofy. But I consider it a gameplay mechanic more than anything else. A necessary evil.[/quote]
Medi-gel is used in the books and it's use is partially explained.
[quote]Omnigel point taken. [/quote]
Okay.
[quote]Ammonia based life: To their credit, Bioware keeps the Volus in enviroment suits and doesn't try to make them LIs (yet:unsure:)[/quote]
Search 'agsii1' on YouTube. You will be surprised.
[quote]It became a necessity when it was decided to kill Shepard off rather than do anything else to explain the drop off the map fro two years.[/quote]
A plot device is a necessity to move the story? Yes, I am sure that we knew that. It doesn't become a deus ex machnina unless it isn't pre-planned.
[quote]But not nearly to the degree needed. Medigel is used for battlefield injuries and first aid. The cybernetics we've seen have been very limited in scope. [/quote]
And? Cybernetic technolodgy does exist, and nanobots that regenerate your cells also exist. Both are tech to exists, it's level is irrelevant.[/quote]
#164
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 09:44
Phaedon
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That would require the theory that Shepard's brain was completely destroyed to be true, and so far all the data from the game has been contradictory towards it at best.Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I think we know how we looked (they show the body scans). We know that we had a lot of broken bones. We know that our tissue was grey. We know that they used nanobots to build rebuild us cell by cell. We know that we required bio-synthetic neural regeneration. We know that there was a lot of questions to whether "the memories were there".
The big questions revolve around how they restored Shepard's mind and personality. I would absolutely like that answered. I can make up some reasonable answers (detailed brain scans from treatment on Citadel + some fiction created by TIM) but I'd like to know what the heck bio-synthetic fusion is and why we have glowy scars.
I can live without knowing and simply fill in the blanks but it has the sense of being important so I hope it ties in to something interesting.
#165
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 10:19
Whatever42
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Phaedon wrote...
That would require the theory that Shepard's brain was completely destroyed to be true, and so far all the data from the game has been contradictory towards it at best.
No, I don't think so. They said they were rebuilding the neural pathways so its clear that there was degredation of the brain. If they rebuilt that structure, they would need a roadmap. Now, I think its entirely possible that during physical examinations, they would take a complete scan of the brain so I don't think that's impossible.
But as I said, I'm fine with that. I just hope it ties into the plot (for example, TIM used Reaper tech dun dun dun!) because that would be cool.
#166
Posté 28 juin 2011 - 11:18
Destroy Raiden_
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Phaedon try to cut back on the wall of text if you have a point to make just make it don't keep posting in quotes upon quotes for a one word answer please.
#167
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 12:42
Iakus
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In the interest of getting this down to a degree that someone besides us will want to read, I'm just going to address the most direct issues. We've both gotten pretty far afield
How do you know this? I'm not asking will they, I'm asking can they?
The Answer: Cybernetics and cell regeneration
How is that an answer? Splinting a broken bone, repairing an internal injury, okay. The brain is a hugely complex device. How can everything be fit together perfectly?
It's level is quite relevant. A Model-T is very different from a modern automobile. Reaper technology is far far more advanced to Council technology. And the Lazarus Project is leaps and bounds beyond any medical technology even hinted at in either Mass Effect game. In Saturday Night Live terms, it's a B-52 at the Battle of Waterloo.
No.[To know how inextricable the two are. Can this be repeated
It has already been explained once, there is no need for it to be explained in the exact same way twice.
How do you know this? I'm not asking will they, I'm asking can they?
The Magic: Shepard was restored to life, with his mind exactly as before.....that's like asking Jules Verne to give you a partial answer for what kind of material the walls of submarines are made of.Jules Verne gave partial answers for the "magic" he introduced. Why BioWare should do more than that you have yet to explain.
The Answer: Cybernetics and cell regeneration
How is that an answer? Splinting a broken bone, repairing an internal injury, okay. The brain is a hugely complex device. How can everything be fit together perfectly?
The point I'm trying to bring up is that we don't know anything about how the brain was turned back on. At all. Cybernetics might repair the body or replace what was irrepairable. But what restores the mind and memories? If the Lazarus Project primarily focused on that, what did they do? You said yourself cybernetics were unlikely to be used, since that would imply SHe[pard was at least partially an AI now, which would change him.Cybernetic technolodgy is definitely there, so I don't see the point of you bringing it up. At all. Especially when you stated that none of this technolodgy, is even partially, "foreshadowed". The...gap, for the millionth time, is finding the switch that turns the body back on. Presumably, it's somewhere in the brain, and that's where most of LP was focused on.
Iron doesn't get pulled out of the ground in tool form, you know.If a bunch of neutrons bound together is Reaper tech, then I wonder what kind of tech hydrogen is.
Does "bad plot device" work better for you?A plot device is a necessity to move the story? Yes, I am sure that we knew that. It doesn't become a deus ex machnina unless it isn't pre-planned.
And? Cybernetic technolodgy does exist, and nanobots that regenerate your cells also exist. Both are tech to exists, it's level is irrelevant.
It's level is quite relevant. A Model-T is very different from a modern automobile. Reaper technology is far far more advanced to Council technology. And the Lazarus Project is leaps and bounds beyond any medical technology even hinted at in either Mass Effect game. In Saturday Night Live terms, it's a B-52 at the Battle of Waterloo.
Modifié par iakus, 29 juin 2011 - 12:47 .
#168
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 11:14
whywhywhywhy
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Destroy Raiden wrote...
The Lproject has to be revealed in 3 we've posted alot individually on the subject over the long time span but to bring it up again it needs to be addressed for those of use who have the audacity to question it!
For those who need answers what should BW answer?
Ok the more I hear I think written files downloaded to sheps' computer would be best so player interested can pull up the Lazarus info on that terminal and read at their leisure: I think the main folder for this info should then be broken into sections like the SB dossier was you were in say Miranda's folder then she had sub folders for you to look at what you wanted. Sub folders should be: team, technology, medical, and shepard specific
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Reports needed in files
Medical file
We need an autopsy - This will establish the body received from Liara the mortician will site the general state of the body upon visual inspection of the outer shell, we will also learn here was the armor gone was the remains devoid of clothing or not, burns, scars, bones poking through the skin, missing limbs, state of skull and brain inside, state of organs are they viable for Cerberus plans or not. This person will recommend the parts to be turned cyber.
A neurologist examination of shep beyond a scan saying everything is fine. Did they test shep during the rebuilding process and shortly before the base attack ? How does this brain doctor think shep's mind is healing are the connecting neurons mending by natural means or is rerouting and brain function replaced by tech? Also this neurologist would say about memories too how are they recovering that can they recover them?
is it damaged memories are restored via experimental "restore point" brain surgery which downloads information from brain tissues, repairs "damaged" sectors (possibly replacing hopelessly lost portions), and reuploads them once the damaged sections of the brain are repaired. The neurologist would tell us things like this.
We want a psychologist opinion on the social ramifications and the potential harm or benefit this could do to shep mentally.
We want photos and if possible some footage of the body during the autopsy as well as during the rebuilding process we want to see the meat and tubes ourselves how messed up where we BW?
Physical life expectancy has that changed thanks to Lproject is his/her life extended or decreasing? How long does he/she have to live?
Shep's reproductive organs does he/she still have them, are they viable or not, or did Cerberus remove them because it was unnecessary to expend the resources to fix that. You know shep did ask about removing important things.
Cybog vs Human how much of shep's body is organic? How much of it is Cyborg and what are those bone only or more?
The organics used we know that growing organs and tissue was used but was too slow for what Cerberus wanted was artificial cellular regeneration based on krogan and/or vorcha cells used to speed this up?
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Technology file
Specifics on technology used we know cybernetics but what?
We think reaper tech from where Sovereign or something else and where was it used in shep and for what purpose?
Did Cerberus include spy ware, track ware, control chip in shep?
Dangers of using reaper tech in shep and EDI will this make shep more hackable friendly to the reapers? Will it cause him to indoctrinate people? ect
What are the Pros for Cerberus in use of reaper tech in shep and EDI?
Why can't Cerberus capitalize on the Lproject is there a reason it can't be used? Sure we blew up the base shep was at but did TIM or Miranda on backup those 2years of priceless data off site? Is there a reason TIM isn't trying to use this on a larger scale?
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Shep file:
We see what Miranda observed and recommended during 2 as she spies on him not just on ship, but on missions, through crew, through email, and all those bugs on ship.
What emails did she not give to shep she was going through them any chance the Alliance asked shep to rejoin and she kept that away from him? ect.
Results of the spy ware and track ware
An explanation why shep was chosen beyond a bloody hero did they choose him to be revived because he had the cipher or was it because he would be a guaranteed lure for the reapers for a yet to be revealed plot by tim?
Number of subjects we were told shep was the only one but with such ground breaking tech was this statement true? Were other humans used or varren or something else to figure out what would work on shep to pre try the method before applying it to the body? Similar to how the kids were used as trials before anything was applied to Jack.
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Team File
Miranda - she was the project overseer what were her duties did any of these duties need to stay hidden from the other members
Wilson - he had a role he died to cover something up (I think) what was his role did he put the chip in Miranda claims isn't there?
Other members who restored the memories and how, who preformed the autopsy, who is the neurologist and pathologist, who is the psychologist.
I'm going to say skip it, I've had enough of this train wreck of a story the first time through. It's obvious to see what it serves as and it was nothing more then a reboot for in-game combat. They can't flesh it more then that without creating more problems, I'd rather they left it alone. Referring to the parts in his body as a because of this you can do this is all they should do anymore will make me not buy the game.
#169
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 03:03
hwf
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Every character that Shepard meets responds in a completely natural way to seeing Shepard again.
These characters cannot accept Shepard's death; you can see this in every line of dialogue outside of the few who had knowledge of or were involved with the Lazarus Project. At worst, like Wrex, they try to joke about any possibility of death and ressurection; assuming Shepard's tough as nails and didn't really die even though Shepard doesn't have a redundant nervous system.
This is possible simply because Shepard's been classified "MIA -missing in action- presumed dead". Last seen alive by Jeff Moreau, Shepard closed Moreau's escape pod hatch just before being violently spaced. Shepard's corpse was never found.
This very thread features so many people who catagorically reject the Lazarus Project, citing impossibility, lack of technology heading up to it or have escalated their denial of the Lazarus phenomenon to "bad writing" to the point that I'm worried that they want to pound a wooden stake through the heart of the responsible writer so that it will never ever happen again.
If anything, all that proves to me that all the characters in Mass Effect react appropriately and don't assume a miracle has happened. This conflict that the players themselves experience while trying to wrap their heads around their Shepard undergoing the Lazarus Project seems to me like it's an exceptional piece of writing.
People cite that there is no precursor to this technology. They are wrong.
The CDN, Cerberus Daily News, was a daily updated newsblip that people who booted up their Mass Effect 2 game could read. It is, in effect, official canon linear media just like the books and comics in the Mass Effect setting - it actually takes place during the very events of Mass Effect 2 as the newsblips are set in the year 2185.
While mostly filler and fluff there was one thread of newsblips that is very much relevant to the Lazarus Project; the court case of "Ford vs Huerta". That would be President Huerta of the UNAS, the United North American States.
It involves Huerta suffering a stroke, being legally braindead and receiving an emergency greybox-like reconstruction of his cognitive functions using VI technology in order to revive the president. House Speaker Lisa Ford starts a court case over this citing that the president has effectively died and she should've become Vice President in that situation.
The Earth Court (Systems Alliance) decides in favor of President Huerta by a thin margin of "5 yea, 4 nay" that Huerta is indeed Huerta, didn't die and that his Term of Office can be finished just fine. Protests ensue, where people chant "Down with the Zombie!". Meanwhile the Earth Court's Chief Justice states that "the legal definition of death must be expanded beyond brain death to include cellular death as well".
Humanity is absolutely divided about this revelation.
If you want to read this in detail note that there are two threads on newsblips; the court case and the riots following it.
The wiki has convenient links that allow you to quickly jump from newsblip to newsblip in both the court-case and riots news coverage.
In Shepard's case the Lazarus Project completely shatters this newly defined barrier of cellular death.
I'm sticking to my guns in saying that the Lazarus Project is very integral to the very message of the Mass Effect trilogy, that Shepard's death has to cause yet another shock during Shepard's trial and that all of it is definately not a convenient gameplay tool or plot tool to toss Shepard into the hands of Cerberus in ME2.
These characters cannot accept Shepard's death; you can see this in every line of dialogue outside of the few who had knowledge of or were involved with the Lazarus Project. At worst, like Wrex, they try to joke about any possibility of death and ressurection; assuming Shepard's tough as nails and didn't really die even though Shepard doesn't have a redundant nervous system.
This is possible simply because Shepard's been classified "MIA -missing in action- presumed dead". Last seen alive by Jeff Moreau, Shepard closed Moreau's escape pod hatch just before being violently spaced. Shepard's corpse was never found.
This very thread features so many people who catagorically reject the Lazarus Project, citing impossibility, lack of technology heading up to it or have escalated their denial of the Lazarus phenomenon to "bad writing" to the point that I'm worried that they want to pound a wooden stake through the heart of the responsible writer so that it will never ever happen again.
If anything, all that proves to me that all the characters in Mass Effect react appropriately and don't assume a miracle has happened. This conflict that the players themselves experience while trying to wrap their heads around their Shepard undergoing the Lazarus Project seems to me like it's an exceptional piece of writing.
People cite that there is no precursor to this technology. They are wrong.
The CDN, Cerberus Daily News, was a daily updated newsblip that people who booted up their Mass Effect 2 game could read. It is, in effect, official canon linear media just like the books and comics in the Mass Effect setting - it actually takes place during the very events of Mass Effect 2 as the newsblips are set in the year 2185.
While mostly filler and fluff there was one thread of newsblips that is very much relevant to the Lazarus Project; the court case of "Ford vs Huerta". That would be President Huerta of the UNAS, the United North American States.
It involves Huerta suffering a stroke, being legally braindead and receiving an emergency greybox-like reconstruction of his cognitive functions using VI technology in order to revive the president. House Speaker Lisa Ford starts a court case over this citing that the president has effectively died and she should've become Vice President in that situation.
The Earth Court (Systems Alliance) decides in favor of President Huerta by a thin margin of "5 yea, 4 nay" that Huerta is indeed Huerta, didn't die and that his Term of Office can be finished just fine. Protests ensue, where people chant "Down with the Zombie!". Meanwhile the Earth Court's Chief Justice states that "the legal definition of death must be expanded beyond brain death to include cellular death as well".
Humanity is absolutely divided about this revelation.
If you want to read this in detail note that there are two threads on newsblips; the court case and the riots following it.
The wiki has convenient links that allow you to quickly jump from newsblip to newsblip in both the court-case and riots news coverage.
In Shepard's case the Lazarus Project completely shatters this newly defined barrier of cellular death.
I'm sticking to my guns in saying that the Lazarus Project is very integral to the very message of the Mass Effect trilogy, that Shepard's death has to cause yet another shock during Shepard's trial and that all of it is definately not a convenient gameplay tool or plot tool to toss Shepard into the hands of Cerberus in ME2.
#170
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 03:45
Destroy Raiden_
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That was an interesting case I remember more catching the later news on that but if humanity wants to expand death to mean cellular death shep still died and got revived. Death should never be used simply as a gameplay restart tool like soap operas who regularly employ this tactic it makes the death of the character cheap. I somehow could let Wrex slid on his ignorance of the topic I guess because shep seemed ignorant of the genophage in 1 and it hurt Wrex so a jab back was inorder. But while Garrus and Tali were surprised by shep's return they made no effort ingame to see if he/she was handling that gravity OK. and all VS did was ignore it.
Them bringing it up in trial but also throughout 3 would be neat but I'd still like a report it would also help to cut back on lengthy dialogue by say Miranda explaining the in's and outs to shep one day and he being a brick over the details. The amount of text required for someone at BW to coherently write out the highlighted topics in OP post would be less then all the dossiers from TIM and the SB combined.
And I don't think people want to go Vlad on the writer's it's just BW heads decided this would be cool to do thought no one would question it and were wrong. We would like them to explain more on how, why, and with what was used to bring back shep for death. On other threads people keep touting the greatness of the BW writers yet on this topic they go no they can't be counted on to make a coherent and believable method to how shep came back? My OP post is giving BW a road map to hand over to the writers and a few artist to help them know what our more pressing questions on the subject are and they can use that to write a plausible explanation for the secrets that make up the Lproject.
Them bringing it up in trial but also throughout 3 would be neat but I'd still like a report it would also help to cut back on lengthy dialogue by say Miranda explaining the in's and outs to shep one day and he being a brick over the details. The amount of text required for someone at BW to coherently write out the highlighted topics in OP post would be less then all the dossiers from TIM and the SB combined.
And I don't think people want to go Vlad on the writer's it's just BW heads decided this would be cool to do thought no one would question it and were wrong. We would like them to explain more on how, why, and with what was used to bring back shep for death. On other threads people keep touting the greatness of the BW writers yet on this topic they go no they can't be counted on to make a coherent and believable method to how shep came back? My OP post is giving BW a road map to hand over to the writers and a few artist to help them know what our more pressing questions on the subject are and they can use that to write a plausible explanation for the secrets that make up the Lproject.
#171
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 03:50
Leoism
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Shepard is going to be hacked by the reapers and kill everyone 
. Now wouldn't that be a complete mind screw situation ? 
. Now wouldn't that be a complete mind screw situation ?
#172
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 04:01
Guest_Arcian_*
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Man, the Lazarus Project stopped being relevant the moment Shepard regained his/her consciousness. Spending gaming resources and time to explain this is counterproductive and pointless.
#173
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 04:32
Iakus
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hwf wrote...
People cite that there is no precursor to this technology. They are wrong.
The CDN, Cerberus Daily News, was a daily updated newsblip that people who booted up their Mass Effect 2 game could read. It is, in effect, official canon linear media just like the books and comics in the Mass Effect setting - it actually takes place during the very events of Mass Effect 2 as the newsblips are set in the year 2185.
While mostly filler and fluff there was one thread of newsblips that is very much relevant to the Lazarus Project; the court case of "Ford vs Huerta". That would be President Huerta of the UNAS, the United North American States.
It involves Huerta suffering a stroke, being legally braindead and receiving an emergency greybox-like reconstruction of his cognitive functions using VI technology in order to revive the president. House Speaker Lisa Ford starts a court case over this citing that the president has effectively died and she should've become Vice President in that situation.
For a brief time, I did hold out hope that greybox technology could explain Shepard's return. Then I saw the codex entry where Alliance personel were forbidden to have greyboxes thanks to an "incident" (thanks a lot, , Kenji)
#174
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 07:58
darth_lopez
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it would be nice if they revealed that the cerberus project was made from reaper parts or something. Honestly i think that could add some pretty interesting plot events
#175
Posté 29 juin 2011 - 08:06
Phaedon
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[quote]iakus wrote...
How do you know this? I'm not asking will they, I'm asking can they?[/quote]
To repeat what they have already stated in ME2? They can, but why would they?
[quote]..The Magic: Shepard was restored to life, with his mind exactly as before.
The Answer: Cybernetics and cell regeneration
How is that an answer? Splinting a broken bone, repairing an internal injury, okay. The brain is a hugely complex device. How can everything be fit together perfectly?[/quote]
Your answer is contradictory to my argument at best. Not all sci-fi writers explain their magic fully. You can count BioWare writers as part of that group.
In fact, I am not sure if this has been documented and if it is in some literature study book, but there is certainly a magic explanation paradox in sci-fi writers.
You can never possibly fully explain a technolodgy that has yet to be discovered, unless you discover it yourself, therefore breaking the fantasy element in all cases that you fully explain a technolodgy. It has either already discovered, or you discover it yourself.
[/quote][quote]The point I'm trying to bring up is that we don't know anything about how the brain was turned back on. At all. Cybernetics might repair the body or replace what was irrepairable. But what restores the mind and memories? If the Lazarus Project primarily focused on that, what did they do? You said yourself cybernetics were unlikely to be used, since that would imply SHe[pard was at least partially an AI now, which would change him.[/quote]We definitely not know how the brain and memory work, fully, at least, so there's no much point discussing that. I am sure that we'll have access to more information not in 2 centuries, but in the following decades.
Even if we accept that all data is wiped out completely, we would have to assume that no sort of traceable mark is left on the brain. As I said, we have not enough data. It is like debating FTL in sci-fi at this point.
[quote]Iron doesn't get pulled out of the ground in tool form, you know.[/quote]
Neutronium (The element of zero atomic mass according to Andropoff) does exist, even though modern science doesn't accept it as an element, purely due to technicalities.
For some of it's 'isotopes' to exist, a revisal of the nuclear model is needed, and that's certainly a good place for a sci-fi writer to pop in and try to twist that to an advantage.
However, I find it illogical to believe that a manufactured isotope can be maintained, and yet it is not a natural product at the same time.
Either way, this is an interesting theory, but it's baseless and considering that it hasn't been connected to the Reapers upon it's introduction and till now, it's a seperate kind of magic.
[quote]Does "bad plot device" work better for you?[/quote]Why bad? I don't see how the plot device is bad by itself, but I can understand that a lot of it's potential has been wasted.
[quote]It's level is quite relevant. A Model-T is very different from a modern automobile. Reaper technology is far far more advanced to Council technology. And the Lazarus Project is leaps and bounds beyond any medical technology even hinted at in either Mass Effect game. In Saturday Night Live terms, it's a B-52 at the Battle of Waterloo.[/quote] The Wright brothers would definitely not like that metaphor.
A lot of the magic is there. TIM's surgery was decades of years ago and it wasn't particularly expensive, no? Standard issue medi-gel can repair almost all kinds of tissue of structure within the body, yes? To see both of them in a more advanced state + another element which is added, and is presumably the main part of the breakthrough shouldn't be that socking?[/quote]
How do you know this? I'm not asking will they, I'm asking can they?[/quote]
To repeat what they have already stated in ME2? They can, but why would they?
[quote]..The Magic: Shepard was restored to life, with his mind exactly as before.
The Answer: Cybernetics and cell regeneration
How is that an answer? Splinting a broken bone, repairing an internal injury, okay. The brain is a hugely complex device. How can everything be fit together perfectly?[/quote]
Your answer is contradictory to my argument at best. Not all sci-fi writers explain their magic fully. You can count BioWare writers as part of that group.
In fact, I am not sure if this has been documented and if it is in some literature study book, but there is certainly a magic explanation paradox in sci-fi writers.
You can never possibly fully explain a technolodgy that has yet to be discovered, unless you discover it yourself, therefore breaking the fantasy element in all cases that you fully explain a technolodgy. It has either already discovered, or you discover it yourself.
[/quote][quote]The point I'm trying to bring up is that we don't know anything about how the brain was turned back on. At all. Cybernetics might repair the body or replace what was irrepairable. But what restores the mind and memories? If the Lazarus Project primarily focused on that, what did they do? You said yourself cybernetics were unlikely to be used, since that would imply SHe[pard was at least partially an AI now, which would change him.[/quote]We definitely not know how the brain and memory work, fully, at least, so there's no much point discussing that. I am sure that we'll have access to more information not in 2 centuries, but in the following decades.
Even if we accept that all data is wiped out completely, we would have to assume that no sort of traceable mark is left on the brain. As I said, we have not enough data. It is like debating FTL in sci-fi at this point.
[quote]Iron doesn't get pulled out of the ground in tool form, you know.
[/quote]Neutronium (The element of zero atomic mass according to Andropoff) does exist, even though modern science doesn't accept it as an element, purely due to technicalities.
For some of it's 'isotopes' to exist, a revisal of the nuclear model is needed, and that's certainly a good place for a sci-fi writer to pop in and try to twist that to an advantage.
However, I find it illogical to believe that a manufactured isotope can be maintained, and yet it is not a natural product at the same time.
Either way, this is an interesting theory, but it's baseless and considering that it hasn't been connected to the Reapers upon it's introduction and till now, it's a seperate kind of magic.
[quote]Does "bad plot device" work better for you?[/quote]Why bad? I don't see how the plot device is bad by itself, but I can understand that a lot of it's potential has been wasted.
[quote]It's level is quite relevant. A Model-T is very different from a modern automobile. Reaper technology is far far more advanced to Council technology. And the Lazarus Project is leaps and bounds beyond any medical technology even hinted at in either Mass Effect game. In Saturday Night Live terms, it's a B-52 at the Battle of Waterloo.[/quote] The Wright brothers would definitely not like that metaphor.
A lot of the magic is there. TIM's surgery was decades of years ago and it wasn't particularly expensive, no? Standard issue medi-gel can repair almost all kinds of tissue of structure within the body, yes? To see both of them in a more advanced state + another element which is added, and is presumably the main part of the breakthrough shouldn't be that socking?[/quote]
Modifié par Phaedon, 29 juin 2011 - 08:07 .
