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[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But there was no memory loss. Shep felt like Shep with perhaps a few upgrades. I'm not sure why some people expected Shep to suddenly become all self-aware and introspective just because he died..

Bolded part is the answer.  People get introspective over near-misses.  This wasn't a near miss.  This wasn't "we lost you for a minute there" This is a two year dead corpse walking around.  No friends, no identity, no job.  Barely a memory.  All that's left is the Reapers.  Might be worth a moment for the character to pause and reflect on that.  You know, being a Bioware game and all:D

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But there was no memory loss. Shep felt like Shep with perhaps a few upgrades. I'm not sure why some people expected Shep to suddenly become all self-aware and introspective just because he died..

Bolded part is the answer.  People get introspective over near-misses.  This wasn't a near miss.  This wasn't "we lost you for a minute there" This is a two year dead corpse walking around.  No friends, no identity, no job.  Barely a memory.  All that's left is the Reapers.  Might be worth a moment for the character to pause and reflect on that.  You know, being a Bioware game and all:D

How do you know he didn't? Shepard is the Commander. Who is he supposed bare his soul to? EDI? 

As I said, Shepard starts the game with all sorts of questions and expressions of astonishment. But when he finds out he's dealing with Cerberus, that stops. And then he's facing the Reapers. We're dealing with a hero here, not Oprah.

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

How do you know he didn't? Shepard is the Commander. Who is he supposed bare his soul to? EDI?

I know because I was Commander Shepard.  Who to talk to?  Well, there's

Anderson ("My door's always open")
Liara (at least she eventually asks how you're doing)
Wrex (if alive)
Kelly Chambers (Isn't that, like, her job?)

Even if not reaching "soul-bearing" levels, there are still several people on the Normandy who'd have opinions or insights.

Miranda:  Actually part of the process.  Could answer any number of questions  Jacob may have soemthing to say as well.
Mordin:  Big-shot scientist.  Would be interested in the scientific aspects of the Lazarus Project.
Chakwas.  Not quite the big shot scientist Mordin is, but has history with Shepard.
Thane and Mordin have spiritual beliefs and be interested in the metaphysical aspects of death if Shepard's into that kind of thing.
Zaeed has had more experience with death than pretty much anyone else but Shep.  If Shep is the morbid type, some chats with him would hit the spot.  Possible alternatives, Samara/Morinth.
Garrus and Tali aren't just squadmates, they're friends  who are along to help out.  Same with Joker.

As I said, Shepard starts the game with all sorts of questions and expressions of astonishment. But when he finds out he's dealing with Cerberus, that stops. And then he's facing the Reapers. We're dealing with a hero here, not Oprah.

A hero who's got all the time in the world wandering the galaxy righting wrongs while waiting for the Illusive Man's next call.  Perhaps between the mall runs on Illium and and raiding Blood Pack bases he could find a moment to ponder the mysteries of life and death;)

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

A hero who's got all the time in the world wandering the galaxy righting wrongs while waiting for the Illusive Man's next call.  Perhaps between the mall runs on Illium and and raiding Blood Pack bases he could find a moment to ponder the mysteries of life and death;)

No more than I thought that Shepard should have spent his time pondering the existence of Reapers in Mass Effect, which throws any pragamatist theory of truth into the fire.

Shepard is a down to earth PC. He doesn't become entangled in philosophical lines of thinking, beyond what others really bring up (Ex: Ashley on religion). I'd agree that others should bring up Shepard's death because death can be a huge issue. But expecting it to change the PC because we'd like it to falls within Bioware's choice.

[Whatever42]

I've never served in the military but I can't imagine a commander sharing his existential crisis with a subordinate, especially in the middle of a high pressure mission where morale is fragile. Do you really want to create any doubts in any of your crew?

Kelly is Cerberus so forget that.

Anderson... maybe. But do you really want to give him any less reason to trust you? Nah, don't think so.

Wrex wouldn't care. Sorry. 

Liara is the only real possibility and on Illium she tells you she is likely under surveillance.

So far, the only person we have ever seen Shepard share any intimate thoughts and doubts with is his/her LI and short of LotSB, that opportunity is never really there.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 30 juin 2011 - 11:14 .

[Whatever42]

Il Divo wrote...

No more than I thought that Shepard should have spent his time pondering the existence of Reapers in Mass Effect, which throws any pragamatist theory of truth into the fire.

Shepard is a down to earth PC. He doesn't become entangled in philosophical lines of thinking, beyond what others really bring up (Ex: Ashley on religion). I'd agree that others should bring up Shepard's death because death can be a huge issue. But expecting it to change the PC because we'd like it to falls within Bioware's choice.

And that is probably the crux of the question: Shepard is not a very well defined character, by design.  As a player, we explore the other characters but not Shepard. Shepard's internal rationale is left up to us.

Does your Shepard dwell on existential questions? How does religion enter into it? How can we explore those questions without strongly defining Shepard?

[Medhia Nox]

@Whatever(numbers): A major flaw in what is otherwise a really enjoyable series.

People say: "He's a soldier." Which is really rather insulting to suggest that soldiers aren't people with emotions and depth of any sort.

More exploration of main character in future Bioware titles please.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Wizz wrote...

iakus wrote...
3) While most fans would rage, and this is way out there as a possibility, I think it would be kinda cool.  Especially if it turned out that the "real Shepard" never died, but was on some deep cover mission for the Council (might explain some of the bizaare behavior expressed around Shepard by some people too, if they new Shep was a fake, but SHep was clueless)

Nah, they clrealy showed part of restoration process and telling that Miranda did fake records just for Shepard is just too much.
4. Shepard's brain wasn't dead more than 15 minutes. We all know the story how Liara got Shepard's body, but we don't how SB did it. There might be a scanty chance that some SB ship followed Shepard after Battle for the Citadel, if so they could put Shepard's body in stasis before it's too late. Still there is Jacob's "dead as dead could be".

But the problem with shep was retrieved within minuets of the explosion is why did no survivors in the life pods see them? Why didn't Alliance ships? Also talking to main engineer in ME he says it’s nearly impossible to get a visual on a ship in space unless you’re right on top of it so how is it the SBs men found a body? And sheps armor and helmet where found on the planet burnt. When shep died his armor wasn't burnt and I doubt they just charred
his armor for effect, he was way too close to the planet not to be pulled in, the bones also speak of immense trauma did the SB take a sledgehammer to the remains prior to selling him to the collectors? Legion states his trail for shep ended at the crash site where he took shep's armor to fix the whole in his chest as well.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 01 juillet 2011 - 12:13 .

[Il Divo]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And that is probably the crux of the question: Shepard is not a very well defined character, by design.  As a player, we explore the other characters but not Shepard. Shepard's internal rationale is left up to us.

Does your Shepard dwell on existential questions? How does religion enter into it? How can we explore those questions without strongly defining Shepard?

Exactly. The issue is that different players might also have different issues which they think Shepard should react to. I (for example) care more about Shepard freaking out at the possibility of Reapers than I do at his previous death. RPG protagonists will always be static, because otherwise every player starts complaining that "my Shepard would not say this".

[ScotGaymer]

Not sayin shep should go into a lengthy period of philosophical introspection here guys.

It's just his questions and disbelief last for little more than a single eyebrow raising moment before altogether stopping without IMO sufficient explanation.

Just felt something a LITTLE more in depth woulda been better.

[Phaedon]

[quote]iakus wrote...
I never made it a secret I disliked the Lazarus Project as a plot device.  But at least grounding it in some degree of in-universe technology would have made it less bad.  Instead we have to make up possibilities to justify it.[/quote]
That's just offensive.

We have spent how many pages discussing cybernetics and the use of medi-gel?

[quote]The Lazarus Project explanation is easily deeper than this:

'eezo', is a rare material that, when subjected to an electrical current, releases dark energy which can be manipulated into a mass effect field, raising or lowering the mass of all objects within that field. A positive current increases mass, a negative current decreases it. . This 'mass effect' is used in countless ways, from generating artificial gravity to manufacturing high-strength construction materials. It is most prominently used to enable faster-than-light space travel. 
Really? How can you even relate something that explains almost exactly how the process is done to something that doesn't explain:

-Why neutrons interact with elecricity.
-Why this interaction alters the mass of an object.
-Why the object's mass is increased with positive but not negative current.
-How it enables FTL.[/quote]

Because we have yet to hear an explanation that explains even in the broadest terms how Shepard's mind was restored.  We got a few images on the screen and one log talking about "biosynthetic fusion"  Okay from that we can infer cybernetics.  Particularly when we start getting upgrades for Shepard.  The images suggest cellular regeneration.  But what about the mind and memories?  The most important part.  The "greatest medical achievement in human history".  There is nothing.  The entry above is a fracking medical dissertation in comparison.
[quote]
Because we have yet to hear an explanation that explains even in the broadest terms how the mass of objects changes.  We get absolutely nothing on it other than a vague reference to neutrons interacting with positive and negative currents.  Okay, so from that, we can infer changing the nuclear model and somehow changing the mass.  Particularly when we consider that element zero has an atomic number of zero.  But what about mass and matter? Why do neutrons even interact with electicity? Why does the mass of an object change? Why does a specific type of current change the mass in a specific way? How exactly does it enable FTL? Are we talking about FTL travel or FTL velocities?

See what I did there?

[quote]Oh it is.  But it's the easy part.  Given Shepard's walk and shoulder, they even screwed that part up;)[/quote]Eh, it's Failberus. I'll have to disagree on the easy part though. We have yet to determine that. For all we know, the memories may as well be there as soon as you turn the switch on.

[quote]First, Not all of Shepard's memories would have to be wiped out.  Even a small portion could derail TIM's plans ("exactly as before", remember?)  This would require incredibly fine handling.  Otherwise Shepard's memories could be screwed up, personality altered, behavior changed.  [/quote]If I understand your logic then you make one mistake. The brain is not just occupied by "memories". If a part of the brain is destroyed beyond repair, it isn't necessarliy the one which holds memories.


[quote]Second, you keep saying that other aspects of the story have holes in them.  This is true.  But there are explanations in the codex or in the game itself.  Lame excuses, yes, but they are there.  There is something to cling to to justify the weirdness that is the ME universe. 
[/quote]
Same for the Lazarus Project. 


[quote]All I ask is one step.  Eezo+electricity=mass effect fields.  That's all I need.  That's the only point I need explaining.[/quote]
Cybernetics+Cellular Regeneration=Lazarus Project

Asking for the "switch element"? Well, let's just say:

Eezo+electricity+x+y+z=mass effect fields.

There are a lot of elements which aren't addressed, mostly because they can't.

[quote]How was Shepard's organs replaced?  regeneration with cybernetics with what can't be replaced.  Fine.  I don't need to know how that works with tissue rejection, power supply, etc.  That can cover the body.  Like I said, if Shepard was alive, that would be enough.  But Shepard was dead  ::cue Parrot Sketch:: [/quote]
You are quite observant. 

[quote]I'm not asking for a complete explanation.  I'm completely willing to settle for a lame excuse.  The same type of lame excuse that FTL drives and biotics gets.  I want reassurance that some thought was actually put into this as a science fiction story, not just as a gameplay excuse to reset Shepard to level 1[/quote]
But you did get an excuse. As to why it should be sufficient is adderessed above.

[quote]As far as plot points go, yes.  Death is a far heavier, more emotional issue.  Everyone experiences death at some point.  Comparatively few people experience FTL travel.[/quote]
Plot-wise? Death and loss is underplayed in the MEverse. Not space magic. The mass relays and the Citadel play a major role in the overreaching the plot, while FTL travel and the mass effect are used in some way for 80% of the game.[/quote][quote]I had to buy LOTSB to get someone to ask Shepard how he was handling it.  I'm still waiting to hear what the "greatest achievement in medical history" entailed, even in dumbed down video game terms. (Author's Note: for the record, that's the first time I have ever used the term "dumbed down" to even hypothetically describe any game, let alone this one.  So don't attach any meaning that ain't there)[/quote]I think that my thoughts on this are addressed above.

[quote]The only way the regenerative and cybernetics process that repaired Shepard's body also restored the mind would be if they repaired all the damaged cells in the brain, not restored them.  I find that to be rather preposterous since not only would that require reestablishing Shepard's brain to be in the same condition pre Normandy destruction, it would have to be done using the exact, same materials, restored to perfection.[/quote]
How so? What's the problem with restoring cells? Why shouldn't it be possible with the same principle of nanobots?

[quote]Part of what makes the regeneration and cybernetics repairing the rest of Shepard at least somewhat plausible is the fact that Cerberus could at least have the option to replace bits too badly damaged to be salvageable.  
[/quote]
Indeed. Cerberus doesn't have infinite money, and that's why they picked a cheap way to repair the spinal cord.

[Iakus]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...
I never made it a secret I disliked the Lazarus Project as a plot device.  But at least grounding it in some degree of in-universe technology would have made it less bad.  Instead we have to make up possibilities to justify it.[/quote]
That's just offensive.

We have spent how many pages discussing cybernetics and the use of medi-gel?[/quote]

Causing offense wasn't my intent.

We have yet to hear how cybernetics or medigel can put thoughts, memories and emotions, that which makes Shepard unique, back into a broken brain.  They can't even do that with AIs.

[quote]
Because we have yet to hear an explanation that explains even in the broadest terms how the mass of objects changes.  We get absolutely nothing on it other than a vague reference to neutrons interacting with positive and negative currents.  Okay, so from that, we can infer changing the nuclear model and somehow changing the mass.  Particularly when we consider that element zero has an atomic number of zero.  But what about mass and matter? Why do neutrons even interact with electicity? Why does the mass of an object change? Why does a specific type of current change the mass in a specific way? How exactly does it enable FTL? Are we talking about FTL travel or FTL velocities?

See what I did there?[/quote]

Yes, you are questioning how the magic rock works.  I get it.  But you see, you have a magic rock to question.  You have codex entries to pick apart.  You have lore to question.

I on the other hand, don't even have a magic rock to work with.  I just have a mental image of Miranda amidst a bunch of tesla coils cackling loudly while screaming "Its ALIVE!" as lighting strikes a shroud-covered Shepard.


[quote]Eh, it's Failberus. I'll have to disagree on the easy part though. We have yet to determine that. For all we know, the memories may as well be there as soon as you turn the switch on.[/quote]That's the question, isn't it.  What is a memory? Leaving behind ideas of a soul or an animus controlling the body (something Bioware probably doesn't wanna get into, and I don't blame them) We have to consider the idea that Shepard's personality and memories are stored in the electrical and chemical processes of the brain.  Once those stop, and the tissue degenerates, the personality would be lost or damaged.  To recreate Shepard as an identical being, you'd have to restore everything exactly as before.  This is far beyond any tissue match or organ replacement.  Shepard's other organs and tissue can be replaced on a cellular level.  Or with cybernetic replacements.  The mind would have to be replaced at a molecular level.  It's not just a matter of restoring the hard drive.  It's recovering any lost files.

 I'm no scientist, but that seems to be an order of magnitude more complicated than a simple rebuild.  Particularly given the "close enough is not good enough" factor TIM insists upon.  That's why "cybernetics and medigel" simply isn't good enough to cover it for me.  Extreme precision medical technology would have to be used.  Something we've never had hinted beforehand.  Even a name shrouded in secrecy would reassure me somewhat.  
[quote].  If I understand your logic then you make one mistake. The brain is not just occupied by "memories". If a part of the brain is destroyed beyond repair, it isn't necessarliy the one which holds memories.[/quote]This is true.  It could screw up motor skills, system regulation, cause chemical imbalances, personality changes,cognitive function.  The list goes on and on how many ways reconstructing the brain can go wrong.  Wilson was right: it's the greatest medical achievement in human history.  And we can't even say "Eezo did it"

[quote]
[quote]  Like I said, if Shepard was alive, that would be enough.  But Shepard was dead  ::cue Parrot Sketch::[/quote]
You are quite observant. [/quote]

Thank you.  Just trying to emphasize that Shepard being Meat radically alters the situation than if Shepard were Not-Meat;)

[quote]But you did get an excuse. As to why it should be sufficient is adderessed above.[/quote]Again, the excuse explains how they were able to repair the physical damage to Shepard.  It's doesn't cover how  Shepard is "exactly the same"  That's an order of precision beyond what we've seen described.


[quote]Plot-wise? Death and loss is underplayed in the MEverse. Not space magic. The mass relays and the Citadel play a major role in the overreaching the plot, while FTL travel and the mass effect are used in some way for 80% of the game.[/quote]I doubt many people got a lump in their throats while seeing the normandy going through a mass effect relay.

I'm sure many players raged if they accidentally got Tali or Garrus killed though.

[/quote][quote]IThe only way the regenerative and cybernetics process that repaired Shepard's body also restored the mind would be if they repaired all the damaged cells in the brain, not restored them.  I find that to be rather preposterous since not only would that require reestablishing Shepard's brain to be in the same condition pre Normandy destruction, it would have to be done using the exact, same materials, restored to perfection.[/quote]
How so? What's the problem with restoring cells? Why shouldn't it be possible with the same principle of nanobots?[/quote]

As I said above, the precision required.  Particularly since Shepard is the first recipient of this treatment.  How will they even know if they succeeded? They can't even do this with AIs

 Hmm, maybe that's where all those billions of credits went, trial and error.  Shep wakes up "not quite Shep"  Cerberus kills him, repeat as needed for two years...SIck, but very Cerberus-like.  Shepard becomes the Nameless One.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I believe hidden in Cerberus Daily is an article featuring a doctor upset that people rely too much on medigel and where using it to treat major injuries it was not designed to do. They said it was only to stop bleeding on some levels like bullet wounds it would however do little to prevent bleed out from say a severed limb.

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
We have yet to hear how cybernetics or medigel can put thoughts, memories and emotions, that which makes Shepard unique, back into a broken brain.  They can't even do that with AIs.

in some degree of in-universe technology

?

Yes, you are questioning how the magic rock works.  I get it.  But you see, you have a magic rock to question.  You have codex entries to pick apart.  You have lore to question.

Because we have yet to hear an explanation that explains even in the broadest terms how the mass of objects changes.  We get absolutely nothing on it other than a vague reference to neutrons interacting with positive and negative currents.  Okay, so from that, we can infer changing the nuclear model and somehow changing the mass.  Particularly when we consider that element zero has an atomic number of zero.  But what about mass and matter? Why do neutrons even interact with electicity? Why does the mass of an object change? Why does a specific type of current change the mass in a specific way? How exactly does it enable FTL? Are we talking about FTL travel or FTL velocities?

No, I am not. I am just saying that 75% of the magic rock is not explored or explained.

It's not the current explanation I would have had a problem with, if I was being nitpicky, but the fact that it answers very few stuff.

You think that not explaining the 1/3rd is the issue? Try not explaining what the mass effect is in the first place.

Or asari anatomy.
Or asari reproduction.
Or overheating weapons in CQB.
Or omni-gel.
Or medi-gel.
Or FTL, when in fact we are not even sure about what kind of FTL we are talking about.


And yet Lazarus Project is a special case. Right? Because people disliked it.
Everything else makes an immersive universe, but no, the Lazarus Project is bad, no way they could achieve that in the future.

I on the other hand, don't even have a magic rock to work with.  I just have a mental image of Miranda amidst a bunch of tesla coils cackling loudly while screaming "Its ALIVE!" as lighting strikes a shroud-covered Shepard.

As I have said multiple times, you can never fully explain an element of science fiction.
You got a whole cutscene, heh, even a shot of a neuron being restored (check it out on YouTube).

Therefore, you know that it was in fact restored, and you want to know how? Space magic. BioWare couldn't possibly explain resurrection because they haven't discovered it yet.

That's the question, isn't it.  What is a memory? Leaving behind ideas of a soul or an animus controlling the body (something Bioware probably doesn't wanna get into, and I don't blame them) We have to consider the idea that Shepard's personality and memories are stored in the electrical and chemical processes of the brain.  Once those stop, and the tissue degenerates, the personality would be lost or damaged.  To recreate Shepard as an identical being, you'd have to restore everything exactly as before.  This is far beyond any tissue match or organ replacement.  Shepard's other organs and tissue can be replaced on a cellular level.  Or with cybernetic replacements.  The mind would have to be replaced at a molecular level.  It's not just a matter of restoring the hard drive.  It's recovering any lost files.

 I'm no scientist, but that seems to be an order of magnitude more complicated than a simple rebuild.  Particularly given the "close enough is not good enough" factor TIM insists upon.  That's why "cybernetics and medigel" simply isn't good enough to cover it for me.  Extreme precision medical technology would have to be used.  Something we've never had hinted beforehand.  Even a name shrouded in secrecy would reassure me somewhat.  

Considering that encoding and storage is something that we know very little off, to assume that the info is once again, wiped completely, especially without some sort of trace of it's previous presence, is well, an assumption. We have known so few things about the brain that it's embarassing.

I am more interested as to the sudden change of the discussion from magic rocks to hard science. Care explain?

.This is true.  It could screw up motor skills, system regulation, cause chemical imbalances, personality changes,cognitive function.  The list goes on and on how many ways reconstructing the brain can go wrong.  Wilson was right: it's the greatest medical achievement in human history.  And we can't even say "Eezo did it"

You don't seem to understand my point.

The only possible way for Shepard's brain to be injured, is a coup contrecoup injury. Why did go all the way and destroy the "memory core" exactly?

Again, the excuse explains how they were able to repair the physical damage to Shepard.  It's doesn't cover how  Shepard is "exactly the same"  That's an order of precision beyond what we've seen described.

No, that's an order of precision beyond what can be described.

I can point out to a dozen of space rocks which BioWare didn't bother explaining, even less than the Lazarus Project.

I doubt many people got a lump in their throats while seeing the normandy going through a mass effect relay.

I'm sure many players raged if they accidentally got Tali or Garrus killed though.

Considering that we are talking about the universe here, I don't see how that argument fits.

As I said above, the precision required.  Particularly since Shepard is the first recipient of this treatment.  How will they even know if they succeeded? They can't even do this with AIs

 Hmm, maybe that's where all those billions of credits went, trial and error.  Shep wakes up "not quite Shep"  Cerberus kills him, repeat as needed for two years...SIck, but very Cerberus-like.  Shepard becomes the Nameless One.

Precision? If you think that that requires precision, just try to imagine how exactly omni-gel is supposed to form specific substances, right down to the last atom.

[Phaedon]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I believe hidden in Cerberus Daily is an article featuring a doctor upset that people rely too much on medigel and where using it to treat major injuries it was not designed to do. They said it was only to stop bleeding on some levels like bullet wounds it would however do little to prevent bleed out from say a severed limb.

You read about a doctor use medi-gel to heal someone who was a few seconds from exsanguination, in Retribution.

It also fixes bones and muscle tissue.

[shaneofthedead]

Shep's got reaper tech in him.

[genaroneto]

/\\

This. One interest thing is that, in the vision revealed by the beacon, there is a scene with a drill sound and the image of something that look like tech implants. This things resemble a lot imo with the implants shepard gets in the cutscene when he is "ressurected"....

[mauro2222]

The only thing that my femmshep got were mammal implants.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Phaedon wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I believe hidden in Cerberus Daily is an article featuring a doctor upset that people rely too much on medigel and where using it to treat major injuries it was not designed to do. They said it was only to stop bleeding on some levels like bullet wounds it would however do little to prevent bleed out from say a severed limb.

You read about a doctor use medi-gel to heal someone who was a few seconds from exsanguination, in Retribution.

It also fixes bones and muscle tissue.

I didn't read retribution. Does it fix fractures or does it grow bones? Then it also depends on how bad it is for instance sheps neck has a missing vertebrae in it I don't think metagel would fix that.

[Iakus]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

]No, I am not. I am just saying that 75% of the magic rock is not explored or explained.
It's not the current explanation I would have had a problem with, if I was being nitpicky, but the fact that it answers very few stuff.

You think that not explaining the 1/3rd is the issue? Try not explaining what the mass effect is in the first place.

Or asari anatomy.
Or asari reproduction.
Or overheating weapons in CQB.
Or omni-gel.
Or medi-gel.
Or FTL, when in fact we are not even sure about what kind of FTL we are talking about.


And yet Lazarus Project is a special case. Right? Because people disliked it.
Everything else makes an immersive universe, but no, the Lazarus Project is bad, no way they could achieve that in the future.[/quote]

Make a thread on any of those topics, and I'll join in if it seems interesting.  Heck I might even agree with you.

But given that Shepard's return from the dead did not involve an asari pregnancy (so far as we know) I think that makes the Lazarus Project a bit more special.

[quote]As I have said multiple times, you can never fully explain an element of science fiction. You got a whole cutscene, heh, even a shot of a neuron being restored (check it out on YouTube).

Therefore, you know that it was in fact restored, and you want to know how? Space magic. BioWare couldn't possibly explain resurrection because they haven't discovered it yet.[/quote]

You really don't understand what makes eezo acceptable to me but unvarnished space magic not acceptable do you?


[/quote] Considering that encoding and storage is something that we know very little off, to assume that the info is once again, wiped completely, especially without some sort of trace of it's previous presence, is well, an assumption. We have known so few things about the brain that it's embarassing.

I am more interested as to the sudden change of the discussion from magic rocks to hard science. Care explain?[/quote]

So Bioware can't even pretend to address the (potential) brain damage?  Seems rather obvious to me.

Hard science?  Seriously?  I'm about as nonscientific as it gets.  If in ME3 EDI says I have to "reroute auxillary power through the jeffries tubes and realign the main deflector dish" to defeat a Reaper, I would just say "Right, where's teh deflector dish"  I've said before, all I need is a magic rock to explain away the sciencey problems.

[quote]You don't seem to understand my point.
The only possible way for Shepard's brain to be injured, is a coup contrecoup injury. Why did go all the way and destroy the "memory core" exactly?[/quote]

Ironically, I'm thinking you don't understand my point either.

I'll see your coup contrecoup injury and raise you a cerebrial hypoxia.  Just because I'm not of a scientific mindset doesn't mean I've never taken first aid:innocent:
[quote]No, that's an order of precision beyond what can be described.
[/quote]

"It's called a Phased Linear Oscillation Transducer Device, reverse engineered from artifacts recovered from a Prothean cache and designed fro human biology.  It can perform amazingly precise surgeries on a smaller scale unknown to human science before.  It is the greatest achievement in human medicine in recorded history."  


[quote]
Precision? If you think that that requires precision, just try to imagine how exactly omni-gel is supposed to form specific substances, right down to the last atom.

[/quote]

I look forward to your thread about omnigel.  Should be interesting reading.

[Iakus]

shaneofthedead wrote...

Shep's got reaper tech in him.

Much as I like my "Cerberus revived and killed Shepard over and over til they got it right"  This is the most likely explanation.  Assuming Bioware  does decide to reveal the answer.

[Sable Phoenix]

Good grief, I can't believe Phaedon and other people here really don't get this.

The mass effect, and almost all the other advanced tech in Mass Effect's universe, comes from eezo, what iakus calls a "magic rock". Everything in ME1 was well thought-out and if it didn't work by an advanced version of the technology we can actually produce today, it at least had a magic rock to handwave it away.

The Lazarus Project doesn't even have a magic rock.

My distaste for the Lazarus Project only exists because it has no magic rock. I'd be perfectly happy to accept it if there were, just as I'm perfectly happy to accept FTL travel because eezo exists. But the Lazarus Project doesn't even have the equivalent of eezo to handwave it away. Instead "a space wizard did it".

Given that such a thing has happened in science fiction before (Babylon 5), even that's not too far fetched, but the difference is that Babylon 5 showed us the wizard. The Lazarus Project does not. That's why it fails, and that's why I despise it. The progression of events is not, "I hate the Lazarus Project, so I'm going to try to pick it apart," it's "The Lazarus Project isn't adequately explained, so I hate it."

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:56 .

[Phaedon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Good grief, I can't believe Phaedon and other people here really don't get this.

The mass effect, and almost all the other advanced tech in Mass Effect's universe, comes from eezo, what iakus calls a "magic rock". Everything in ME1 was well thought-out and if it didn't work by an advanced version of the technology we can actually produce today, it at least had a magic rock to handwave it away.

And you fail to realize that it has been 5 pages since we have concluded that mass effect is one of the many magic rocks that the MEverse has.

The Lazarus Project doesn't even have a magic rock.

In that case, it can only be hard science. Or it is by itself a magic rock.

My distaste for the Lazarus Project only exists because it has no magic rock. I'd be perfectly happy to accept it if there were, just as I'm perfectly happy to accept FTL travel because eezo exists. But the Lazarus Project doesn't even have the equivalent of eezo to handwave it away. Instead "a space wizard did it".

Cellular restoration.
Revival, in general.
And the rest of the project as well, considering how many people on these forums consider any sort of futuristic science as magic.

Given that such a thing has happened in science fiction before (Babylon 5), even that's not too far fetched, but the difference is that Babylon 5 showed us the wizard. The Lazarus Project does not. That's why it fails, and that's why I despise it. The progression of events is not, "I hate the Lazarus Project, so I'm going to try to pick it apart," it's "The Lazarus Project isn't adequately explained, so I hate it."

The Lazarus Project has as many magic rocks as the mass effect has. We hear on an element of the atomic number of zero which when subjected to electric current it changes the mass of objects.

Neutronium and electric current aren't magic, space, resurrection, or generally any kind of magic rocks. Bost exist.

There's just another factor there that causes the magic that is never explained or presented.

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
Make a thread on any of those topics, and I'll join in if it seems interesting.  Heck I might even agree with you.

If I were to make a thread on any of these topics, I would have missed the point of science fiction.

The MEverse consists of some technobabble and also some attempts to futuristic  science. The first ones are of course not explained, almost at all, while the fututristic science is of course partially not explained.

The exact same thing applies to the Lazarus Project, technobabble, or not.

But given that Shepard's return from the dead did not involve an asari pregnancy (so far as we know) I think that makes the Lazarus Project a bit more special.

How so?
Life and death are insignificant  in comparison to space time and mass. For the universe that is.

I still don't see that even if life was more significant than the very universe and it's form itself, how Lazarus Project can be special. Lazarus Project is yet another plot device, like all of the rest of the technolodgy in ME1 and 2, technobabble or not.

You really don't understand what makes eezo acceptable to me but unvarnished space magic not acceptable do you?

Eezo explains as much, if not less than the cybernetics and cellular regeneration and restoration.

In the beginning you have eezo and electric current, and in the end you have space time folding.

What happens in the meantime, is not even mentioned.

We are not talking about how scientifically correct the explanation is, we are talking about the lack of explanation.

So Bioware can't even pretend to address the (potential) brain damage?  Seems rather obvious to me.

0:59, zoom on brain, neuron, synapes on the left.

Hard science?  Seriously?  I'm about as nonscientific as it gets.  If in ME3 EDI says I have to "reroute auxillary power through the jeffries tubes and realign the main deflector dish" to defeat a Reaper, I would just say "Right, where's teh deflector dish"  I've said before, all I need is a magic rock to explain away the sciencey problems.

And somehow, yet, you are the one to bring hard science into the argument, while you were asking for a magic eezo-constructed space rock a few sentences earlier. As I said, why the change?

Ironically, I'm thinking you don't understand my point either.

I'll see your coup contrecoup injury and raise you a cerebrial hypoxia.  Just because I'm not of a scientific mindset doesn't mean I've never taken first aid:innocent:

Err, nobody said that Shepard wasn't brain dead. That's the point.
You just acting as if the brain is utterly destroyed, leaving no trace of it's existance.

"It's called a Phased Linear Oscillation Transducer Device, reverse engineered from artifacts recovered from a Prothean cache and designed fro human biology.  It can perform amazingly precise surgeries on a smaller scale unknown to human science before.  It is the greatest achievement in human medicine in recorded history."

Surgery on cells? Really? That wouldn't take two years, that would take...let's just say that there are 50 trillion cells in our bodies. 

This is the reason that you can't just throw as many magic rocks as you can, anywhere. This is why sometimes you have to stop in the surface of an explanation.

And why that is? Because every single player and their dog (no, not their cat, sorry) can create an image in their minds of a device doing surgery on cells and understand why it wouldn't work at all.

I look forward to your thread about omnigel.  Should be interesting reading.

Not my point. My point is precision.

I don't care for an explanation for omni-gel and how it works because I know that I can't possibly get one.
You claim that it would require extreme precision. Try thinking how omni-gel would have to work.

Or is, once again, the Lazarus Project "special". More special than any other element of the sci-fi universe, I guess. It seems to be the only one to which the community demanded an explanation and for that to be true to contemporary science.

Modifié par Phaedon, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

As demented as iakus idea is on the revive shep to kill him if he's a flaw is so up my horror ally! If Cerberus did this they'd show just how sick they are and it would be undeniable at this point. Shep should also react to this either be like he could see why or be appalled. The cruelty of this act would boggle the mind but it would also keep the saying true were Jacob said Shep was the only subject used.

If BW went this route I hope they would have recordings of a few of the fail sheps like what happened and how they put them down.