551 réponses à ce sujet

[Aviena]

Katana_Master wrote...
In modern-day America, making a comment that, when cross-examined, dissected, held up to the light and x-rayed; which after all that, may, out of context, imply that you have some sort of grudge against women/blacks/muslims/whoever, will INSTANTLY make you a social pariah. On the other hand, if someone from one of those same groups says something that makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that they are racist towards men/whites/christians, the comment will be ignored.

...

EDIT:  Cue the racism accusations.

...urgh. The above simply is not true. Sure, if a middle-aged white man said "I hate Jews" on live TV, he would probably never be taken seriously in polite society again. Be reasonable, though: if a young black woman said "I hate whites!" on live TV, everybody would think SHE was crazy, too.

I hear arguments like the quoted post quite often, attempting to justify racist attitudes amongst privileged groups by basically saying "they're allowed to hate us, why aren't we allowed to hate them!? This is discrimination!" And it WOULD be discrimination, if it actually happened. Which it doesn't.

(Note: the anti-semetic in my example might be supported by others sharing his racist views. The racist black woman might be supported by other "anti-whites". But neither would be supported by society-at-large.)

[Eire Icon]

The whole Ashley is a racist argument is bordering on the ridiculous. At no stage does she ever give the impression that she hates aliens. Suspicion concern or distrust does not equal racism. Ashley doubts the motives and intent of Cerberus also, does that make her racist against humanity?

The concerns she raises over allowing aliens access to the systems of the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet are completely legitimate. The UN are "allies" but I don't see them sharing their top militry classified technology with each other. That dosent make them racist, its just makes them understandibly cautious.

Ash dosen't get on with Liara, but at no stage is that put down to the fact she is an alien. After Noveria she specifically asks Shepard to check on Liara to make sure she's ok, and if she is Shep's LI and Shep has to choose between the two, she express's sympathy for Liara. Again these are not the actions of a racist person

What some appear to be doing is taking Ashleys position on various things and attributing that stance to her hatred of aliens. That is completely inaccurate. Its like taking the Jacob/Tali argument and concluding that Jacob is sexist !

[KyreneZA]

racist
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic]
n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

Of the above difinition, I think Ashley only falls victim to the first. She makes remarks or does things that are racially intolerant. Or, actually, given her family and military service history, remarks that are racially ignorant. Depending on how much of a racist/renegade your Shep is, she either carries on believing/doing those things or changes her point of view. She is therefore as much a racist as you as player allow your Shep to be. Or perhaps are yourself, given that Shep is on some level an extention of the self?

And "racist" would be the right word for such actions in the galaxy (whether by Saren, Tali, the turian shopkeeper, most batarians, etc.), not the misnomer we humans use when speaking of other humans. But then, "racist" has so much more of a juicy, illicit, shameful ring to it than an 'ethnicist,' or a 'culturist,' or "nationalist." And misnomer or not, it's the word we're stuck with when trying to describe anything concerning intolerance within the human race.

I'd say Ashley is therefore racist, but no less so than most quarians when concerned with the geth, most krogan when concerned with salarians and turians, most batarians when concerned with humans and most races when concerned with the vorcha.

[Eire Icon]

Kyrene wrote...

racist
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic]
n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

Of the above difinition, I think Ashley only falls victim to the first. She makes remarks or does things that are racially intolerant. Or, actually, given her family and military service history, remarks that are racially ignorant. Depending on how much of a racist/renegade your Shep is, she either carries on believing/doing those things or changes her point of view. She is therefore as much a racist as you as player allow your Shep to be. Or perhaps are yourself, given that Shep is on some level an extention of the self?

And "racist" would be the right word for such actions in the galaxy (whether by Saren, Tali, the turian shopkeeper, most batarians, etc.), not the misnomer we humans use when speaking of other humans. But then, "racist" has so much more of a juicy, illicit, shameful ring to it than an 'ethnicist,' or a 'culturist,' or "nationalist." And misnomer or not, it's the word we're stuck with when trying to describe anything concerning intolerance within the human race.

I'd say Ashley is therefore racist, but no less so than most quarians when concerned with the geth, most krogan when concerned with salarians and turians, most batarians when concerned with humans and most races when concerned with the vorcha.

By that logic everyone in the ME universe is racist!

Shpeard is racist against Protheons, Krogan are racist against Salarians, Geth are racist against heretics, King Zeel is racist against Tali fans

The list just goes on and on

[Aviena]

The thing about Ashley is that this all occurs within the context of the ME universe. Shepard and Ashley are Alliance soldiers, representing a human military interest. Garrus' father is a prominent Turian law-enforcement operative; Tali is the daughter of one of the Quarian admirals; Wrex is a mercenary.

I think that in this context, Ashley's mistrust stems in part from the fact the the three aliens have no reason to bear the Alliance any loyalty, and might in fact benefit from stealing the Normandy's secrets (except maybe Garrus, as Turians helped design the Normandy). I don't think Ash worries about them because she considers Quarians untrustworthy, or because she doesn't like Turians, or because she thinks all Krogan are nuts - rather, she is wary of a possible conflict-of-interests stemming from their involvement with organisations whose goals may not always reflect those of the Alliance. She doesn't express it awfully clearly - I can see why some might consider her racist, really. I don't see her character as being racist, however. I don't think Ash would be cool with a member of the Terra Firma party having access to the engine room, either.

[KyreneZA]

Eire Icon wrote...
By that logic everyone in the ME universe is racist!

What logic of mine are you referring to? As I made three distinct points, and you went and quoted my whole post, it's a bit difficult to follow what your rebutting/objecting to.

Could you clarify?

[Volus Warlord]

Everyone is prejudiced, it is only a matter of to what extent and in what areas.

[Garrison2009]

Ok, been watching this thread for some time and I guess I'll put my two cents in...

Ashley is not what modern society calls a racist. She herself states, if you take the actual initiative to talk to her and try and convince her of a different point of view, "I don't think humans have a divine mandate... I don't believe we're superior."

Her concerns about 'non-humans' simply comes from her past. Her grandfather was the first human ever to surrender to an alien force and so her family has been black-listed as a result. And so she blames the aliens. Can we really blame her? She's simply being... human. And maybe that's the real problem people have with her. She's a human saying supposedly 'racist' things. This has been mentioned before on this thread and I believe it falls pretty close to the mark. If she were a Turian, for instance, I dont believe anyone would have a problem with her blasting other species.

In short, I believe the only people who call her a 'racist' and a 'bigot' are people who either misunderstand what she's saying or simply close their ears when talking to her and automatically put labels on her just because she's human.

(Not only that, my personal theory is that alot of people see her in that way to make themselves feel better about letting her die on Virmire...)

"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist. I'll never work for them..."
-Ashley Williams (Horizon)

[Eire Icon]

Kyrene wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
By that logic everyone in the ME universe is racist!

What logic of mine are you referring to? As I made three distinct points, and you went and quoted my whole post, it's a bit difficult to follow what your rebutting/objecting to.

Could you clarify?

Apologies, my answer wasn't very clear now that I read it again

Ashley's beliefs/comments are based on politics not race. She is not discriminating against anyone because they are alien, she is however not convinced by the motives of some (who happen to be alien, and some also who are not alien)

Shepard is going around the galaxy killing Collectors, not because he is racist against them, but rather because he is reacting to a perceived threat against humanity. What I was saing is, by the logic above that would make him racist against Collectors which isn't the case

I'm struggling to see where Ash has made a racially intolerant comment? can you clarify which comments you mean ?

[jamesp81]

Ashley's not even a racist (just cynical and cautious, and as it turns out, RIGHT where the Council is concerned), but the OP's point is well taken.

Several of the alien characters are openly racist. Hell, Wrex even makes it kind of clear that any human besides Shepard would've pretty much been killed on sight for landing on Tuchanka.

[jamesp81]

michaelrsa wrote...

Take her line "I'm no fan of aliens"

Replace "aliens" with "blacks", "jews", "asians" or any other race and it's pretty damn racist.

Apples and oranges.

"I'm no fan of aliens" is more akin to saying something like.....

"I'm no fan of Russia" or

"I'm no fan of the People's Republic of China"

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Considering how unwilling the Council has been to help humanity in both games I don't know why anyone would knock Ashley for her suspicions of aliens. She clearly doesn't dislike aliens on a personal level. Her distrust manifests on the "national" (or interstellar) level.

We can't trust or rely on alien governments, that's a fact.

This here.

People may not like the way she presented her views, but she was 100% right about the Council.

[jamesp81]

bobobo878 wrote...

BluMighty wrote...

Am I the only one who noticed that while Ashley has been trashed for being "racist", other crewmates in both Mass Effect 1 and 2 make racist comments as well?

The other crewmembers may make racist remarks from time to time, but Ashley is the only one who murders Wrex.

Yeah, when Wrex is just about to do the same to her commanding officer.

[KyreneZA]

Eire Icon wrote...
I'm struggling to see where Ash has made a racially intolerant comment? can you clarify which comments you mean ?

When she brings up the questionable merit of having Wrex or Garrus on board the Normandy. Where she accuses Shep of spending time with Liara (I forget the exact context, but it's the "vid-message with her sister" conversation). Where she confronts Liara and Shep if Shep is romancing both.

But, as others have said, those are actually other objections she's voicing, but due to, let's call it 'ignorance,' on her part it comes accross as 'racist.' Let's be honest, if one is being racist due to intolerance, ignorance or any other reason, one is still being racist.

Don't get me wrong. Though her in(s)ane jealousy drives me up the wall, I find Ashley to be one of the deeper companions in ME. I would have preferred to leave Ensign Olsen (or Joker) behind on Virmire, and kept both Kaidan and Ashley.

[Eire Icon]

Kyrene wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
I'm struggling to see where Ash has made a racially intolerant comment? can you clarify which comments you mean ?

When she brings up the questionable merit of having Wrex or Garrus on board the Normandy. Where she accuses Shep of spending time with Liara (I forget the exact context, but it's the "vid-message with her sister" conversation). Where she confronts Liara and Shep if Shep is romancing both.
.

She questions giving Wrex and Garrus access to the Normandys systems, not having them on board. That is a legitimate and understandable objection given that the Normandy is a state of the art Alliance Ship. Notice she dosen;t mention Tali as she dosen't pocess the same potential security threat

She only "accuses" Male Shep of "spending time" with Liara, because she has an interest in him romantically. Again thats not racism thats jealousy, the same with the confrontation if Shepard is romancing both

She dosent mention it to Female Shep.

Modifié par Eire Icon, 27 juin 2011 - 03:25 .

[KyreneZA]

Eire Icon wrote...

She questions giving Wrex and Garrus access to the Normandys systems, not having them on board. That is a legitimate and understandable objection given that the Normandy is a state of the art Alliance Ship. Notice she dosen;t mention Tali as she dosen't pocess the same potential security threat

And that just shows her ignorance. Tali is potentially a bigger security threat than the other two combined IMO.

Look, I agree with you as to her true motives. I still contend that she comes accross as racist, even if she clearly isn't. And only a paragon (and charming one at that) Shep can make her see it.

[kumquats]

Kyrene wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
I'm struggling to see where Ash has made a racially intolerant comment? can you clarify which comments you mean ?

When she brings up the questionable merit of having Wrex or Garrus on board the Normandy. Where she accuses Shep of spending time with Liara (I forget the exact context, but it's the "vid-message with her sister" conversation). Where she confronts Liara and Shep if Shep is romancing both.

But, as others have said, those are actually other objections she's voicing, but due to, let's call it 'ignorance,' on her part it comes accross as 'racist.' Let's be honest, if one is being racist due to intolerance, ignorance or any other reason, one is still being racist.

Don't get me wrong. Though her in(s)ane jealousy drives me up the wall, I find Ashley to be one of the deeper companions in ME. I would have preferred to leave Ensign Olsen (or Joker) behind on Virmire, and kept both Kaidan and Ashley.

The comment on Liara is 100% jealousy, she doesn't say anything to femShep, but if you are manShep you can hear the cats screaming in the background.

Honestly, if I meet Wrex in RL, I would be scared of him, because I don't know what to expect.
It's not a human, it's a different species you don't know nothing about. I can understand where Ashley is coming from. I would be suspicious, too.

Ashley is a very good character, she is like a mirror showing us who we humans are. We are suspicious and judgmental of everything we don't know.

[Katana_Master]

Aviena wrote...

Katana_Master wrote...
In modern-day America, making a comment that, when cross-examined, dissected, held up to the light and x-rayed; which after all that, may, out of context, imply that you have some sort of grudge against women/blacks/muslims/whoever, will INSTANTLY make you a social pariah. On the other hand, if someone from one of those same groups says something that makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that they are racist towards men/whites/christians, the comment will be ignored.

...

EDIT:  Cue the racism accusations.

...urgh. The above simply is not true. Sure, if a middle-aged white man said "I hate Jews" on live TV, he would probably never be taken seriously in polite society again. Be reasonable, though: if a young black woman said "I hate whites!" on live TV, everybody would think SHE was crazy, too.

I hear arguments like the quoted post quite often, attempting to justify racist attitudes amongst privileged groups by basically saying "they're allowed to hate us, why aren't we allowed to hate them!? This is discrimination!" And it WOULD be discrimination, if it actually happened. Which it doesn't.

(Note: the anti-semetic in my example might be supported by others sharing his racist views. The racist black woman might be supported by other "anti-whites". But neither would be supported by society-at-large.)

I suppose I was exaggerating, but not by much.  Thing is, if I go any further into this line of inquiry, I'll start talking real-life politics, which won't leave anyone happy and might get the thread shut down.  So to go back to the overarcing point of my original post,  I don't think Ashley is a racist:

"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of being extreme."
"That's a noble cause.  Too bad so many of your members are just racist" - To the Terra Firma party.
"I don't think we're superior."

She's stated, quite clearly, that she doesn't consider herself racist.  Shooting Wrex on Virmire had nothing to do with the fact that he was a Krogan, and everything to do with the fact he was pointing a gun at Shepard.  Concerns about Garrus and Wrex having access to the Normandy's systems; if you were a crew member on board an American top-secret, prototype warship, and you had someone from say, China or Russia onboard, wouldn't you be concerned?  It's not race that's bothering her.

[Eire Icon]

Kyrene wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

She questions giving Wrex and Garrus access to the Normandys systems, not having them on board. That is a legitimate and understandable objection given that the Normandy is a state of the art Alliance Ship. Notice she dosen;t mention Tali as she dosen't pocess the same potential security threat

And that just shows her ignorance. Tali is potentially a bigger security threat than the other two combined IMO.

Look, I agree with you as to her true motives. I still contend that she comes accross as racist, even if she clearly isn't. And only a paragon (and charming one at that) Shep can make her see it.

Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk? The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

[jamesp81]

Collider wrote...

V-rex wrote...

Collider wrote...
It's really tough to believe that there is no prejudice involved if she can't fathom why a human male may be attracted to something that looks and talks like a human woman.

Is it really tough to believe she may just be pissed off and resentful that Shepard who seemed interested in her at first to now be chatting up someone else? Especially if said someone was of an entirely different species?

Yes I agree there could be some prejudice in relation to Liara's species, but I think the main reason for aggression was the fact that Liara was putting the moves on someone Ashley had eyes on.

The words that Ashley say don't come out of thin air. It has to have a basis.
I might consider her just blurting something out that she doesn't mean if she said so. She doesn't apologize, she doesn't take her words back, she just says how is she supposed to be jealous of an asari? and fine, go run out with [b]some[/i] alien.

Not to mention, she is a written character. The writers specifically wrote her to express surprise at the thought of being jealous of another race. And to bring up race randomly during the confrontation, when Liara says nothing even remotely related to it.

The writer at Bioware that wrote Ashley's character came straight out and said she wasn't a racist, point of fact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eire Icon wrote...


Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk?

Yes.

The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Not really.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

[Eire Icon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk?

Yes.

The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Not really.

17 million in the migrant fleet, with no home world and many aging ships in their fleet. Yep I think the Alliance would more then have that covered

[Dean_the_Young]

Eire Icon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk?

Yes.

The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Not really.

17 million in the migrant fleet, with no home world and many aging ships in their fleet. Yep I think the Alliance would more then have that covered

Then you're rather silly, because you conveniently neglect that the Migrant Fleet is by far the largest space force in the galaxy, and has always been treated as a collective force of considerable note by all relevant parties. Each ship doesn't have to be great, or even good: there's so many of them instead. It takes days for the fleet to go through Mass Relays, and you think that such numbers could be wiped out in a heart beat, let alone without significant cost?

Silly person is silly.

[Eire Icon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk?

Yes.

The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Not really.

17 million in the migrant fleet, with no home world and many aging ships in their fleet. Yep I think the Alliance would more then have that covered

Then you're rather silly, because you conveniently neglect that the Migrant Fleet is by far the largest space force in the galaxy, and has always been treated as a collective force of considerable note by all relevant parties. Each ship doesn't have to be great, or even good: there's so many of them instead. It takes days for the fleet to go through Mass Relays, and you think that such numbers could be wiped out in a heart beat, let alone without significant cost?

Silly person is silly.

I'm Silly  - Of course I am!

Bless your cotton socks!

How silly of me to think humanity with billions of people on their side would be capable of beating a population of 17 million people isolated in Space with no homeworld of their own.

So anyway, whose your favourite pokemon ?