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[Jedi Master of Orion]

"We don't often allow aliens to do business on Tuchanka." People don't seem to mind Wrex saying that to them in ME 2.

But as far as security risks go, I think that if the Turians were to become an enemy of the Alliance they'd be a much greater threat than the Quarians. The Quarians might be dangerous with all the ships they have but they can't afford to just go around attacking people, all their population are on those ships. The Turians meanwhile have by far the largest military in the galaxy and several highly populated worlds with the ability to build more ships.

[jamesp81]

Kyrene wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
I'm struggling to see where Ash has made a racially intolerant comment? can you clarify which comments you mean ?

When she brings up the questionable merit of having Wrex or Garrus on board the Normandy. Where she accuses Shep of spending time with Liara (I forget the exact context, but it's the "vid-message with her sister" conversation). Where she confronts Liara and Shep if Shep is romancing both.

But, as others have said, those are actually other objections she's voicing, but due to, let's call it 'ignorance,' on her part it comes accross as 'racist.' Let's be honest, if one is being racist due to intolerance, ignorance or any other reason, one is still being racist.

Don't get me wrong. Though her in(s)ane jealousy drives me up the wall, I find Ashley to be one of the deeper companions in ME. I would have preferred to leave Ensign Olsen (or Joker) behind on Virmire, and kept both Kaidan and Ashley.

Questioning having Garrus and Wrex onboard is not racist.  It's her duty, as a soldier, to point out things that might be of concern to her CO.  Having foreign nationals have free run of an experimental warship is a valid concern.

As for the Liara thing.....people say ugly things when jealousy gets involved with respect to romantic situations.  It's not as if Liara is entirely non-prejudiced herself.  Ashley is naturally emotional and hot headed and is more likely to get rough, verbally, in general if she's on edge, angry, hurting, etc.

Modifié par jamesp81, 27 juin 2011 - 05:09 .

[jamesp81]

Eire Icon wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

She questions giving Wrex and Garrus access to the Normandys systems, not having them on board. That is a legitimate and understandable objection given that the Normandy is a state of the art Alliance Ship. Notice she dosen;t mention Tali as she dosen't pocess the same potential security threat

And that just shows her ignorance. Tali is potentially a bigger security threat than the other two combined IMO.

Look, I agree with you as to her true motives. I still contend that she comes accross as racist, even if she clearly isn't. And only a paragon (and charming one at that) Shep can make her see it.

Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk? The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Quarians live a hand to mouth existence and they have to scramble to make ends meet.  It would not be a stretch to think Tali might sell information on the construction of the Normandy to raise funds for the Migrant Fleet.

So I do kind of think Ashley was worried about the wrong ones.  Turians helped design the Normandy and Wrex is just interested in "fighting for credits".  But I agree with her premise and it's her duty to inform her CO of potential issues before they become actual issues.

This doesn't make Ashley ignorant or racist.  She merely made a mistake, IMO, in her threat assessment.  Coming at the situation from a standpoint of not knowing any of the alien squadmates personally, I would be more uncomfortable with Liara and Tali, especially Tali.

[jamesp81]

Eire Icon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk?

Yes.

The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Not really.

17 million in the migrant fleet, with no home world and many aging ships in their fleet. Yep I think the Alliance would more then have that covered

I don't actually know what the combat capability of the MF is, but I tend to see it more your way.  Most of their ships are likely unarmed tramp freighters.  Even a lot of their warships are third hand castoffs and surplused out vessels.

Now, the writers may illuminate us more clearly on the MF's total combat capability and maybe it's more than I suspect.  But as of now, the impression I get is that it's a collection of rust buckets that are barely habitable or serviceable, and as a fleet it's little more than a defensive huddle.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eire Icon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk?

Yes.

The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Not really.

17 million in the migrant fleet, with no home world and many aging ships in their fleet. Yep I think the Alliance would more then have that covered

Then you're rather silly, because you conveniently neglect that the Migrant Fleet is by far the largest space force in the galaxy, and has always been treated as a collective force of considerable note by all relevant parties. Each ship doesn't have to be great, or even good: there's so many of them instead. It takes days for the fleet to go through Mass Relays, and you think that such numbers could be wiped out in a heart beat, let alone without significant cost?

Silly person is silly.

I'm Silly  - Of course I am!

Bless your cotton socks!

How silly of me to think humanity with billions of people on their side would be capable of beating a population of 17 million people isolated in Space with no homeworld of their own.

Unless those billions intend to walk into space...

So anyway, whose your favourite pokemon ?

Nyx Avatar

[Youknow]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

"We don't often allow aliens to do business on Tuchanka." People don't seem to mind Wrex saying that to them in ME 2.

But as far as security risks go, I think that if the Turians were to become an enemy of the Alliance they'd be a much greater threat than the Quarians. The Quarians might be dangerous with all the ships they have but they can't afford to just go around attacking people, all their population are on those ships. The Turians meanwhile have by far the largest military in the galaxy and several highly populated worlds with the ability to build more ships.

Thread exploded since I've been here. Anyways, the reason why, is that it's not racist. It's just a simple fact. They don't often allow such. Do aliens often come to do business on Earth? Do aliens often come to do business on any of the home planets? Probably not. The fact is, the statement is a compliment. It's basically saying "we don't just let anyone" come here. It's more a sign of trust than anything else. 

Quarians would probably be more of a threat if they were to attack at once. But the gamble would be far too much to be worth it. The ships are their homes, so they cannot afford to lose them. Realistically speaking, Turians would be more of a threat. 

As for Ash, it still seems like people think that when people apply the term "racist," they expect Ashley to pick up pitchforks. Even the Terra Firma people for instance have similar beliefs as Ashley. The difference? They are extremist. Ashley is not. Heck, Wrex even *agrees* with the Terra Firma beliefs as well. So it's not like they don't have an understandable argument either. And like it or not, Horizon IS part of the canon. As painful as it was to see Ashley make that horrifying comment, she said it anyways. I still like to attribute it more to her frustrations at Sheperd than anything else. I mean, who wouldn't? Sheperd apparently went brain dead after that scene. 

[Veex]

Good thread. I'm going to present something of an offensive notion below, and I expect many will take offense to it, but I've found this to be my experience with regards to racism.

Stereotypes exist for a reason and they're all derived from factual events. If I see a white male with a shaved head and tattoos I'm going to be weary. Conversely, if a black male wearing a doo rag and baggy clothing walks toward me I'm also going to instinctively have a reaction. I'm suggesting that these ideas were so prevelant in my life that I instinctively have these reaction. They're involuntary products of my subconscious mind. Only through exposure to individuals that fit the stereotype I've learned will I accept them as different and unlike the stereotype. We as human beings identify and group things unlike us as a product of our cognitive functions. Its an involuntary function of our make up.

I don't think its wrong for Ashely, or any of the other characters, to be weary of aliens. She is a product of her upbringing and past experiences. She literally cannot control the fact that she is suspicious of Turians and Krogan for example. She may learn to tolerate and accept specific individuals from those species, and perhaps gain a broader understanding of a species as a whole, but she'll always carry those subconscious labels and ideologies.

I'd say the only real exception to this is Grunt, who being tank bred and literally programmed has no real concept of species. Okeer bred him to kill and to my recollection their isn't much he says with regards to a specific species, rather the Turians and Salarians are simply the memories recalled when expressing his learning about the kill. I don't think he's got the societal or parental influence ingrained in him yet to even acknowledge what specism would be.

Which brings me to a question that may be out of the scope of the thread. Can an individual be racist if they've no concept of race or the adjoining stereotypes?

Modifié par Veex, 27 juin 2011 - 05:42 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Youknow wrote...

Thread exploded since I've been here. Anyways, the reason why, is that it's not racist. It's just a simple fact. They don't often allow such. Do aliens often come to do business on Earth? Do aliens often come to do business on any of the home planets? Probably not. The fact is, the statement is a compliment. It's basically saying "we don't just let anyone" come here. It's more a sign of trust than anything else.

He's still describing a policy that he is enforcing. Aliens generally aren't allowed to come to Tuchanka. The game doesn't imply that the toher races' homeworlds have a comparable policy.

[Youknow]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Youknow wrote...

Thread exploded since I've been here. Anyways, the reason why, is that it's not racist. It's just a simple fact. They don't often allow such. Do aliens often come to do business on Earth? Do aliens often come to do business on any of the home planets? Probably not. The fact is, the statement is a compliment. It's basically saying "we don't just let anyone" come here. It's more a sign of trust than anything else.

He's still describing a policy that he is enforcing. Aliens generally aren't allowed to come to Tuchanka. The game doesn't imply that the toher races' homeworlds have a comparable policy.

Fair point. I suppose we'll have to wait for ME3 to see if that's the case. We don't know yet. 

[Sherbet Lemon]

Veex wrote...

Stereotypes exist for a reason and they're all derived from factual events. If I see a white male with a shaved head and tattoos I'm going to be weary. Conversely, if a black male wearing a doo rag and baggy clothing walks toward me I'm also going to instinctively have a reaction. I'm suggesting that these ideas were so prevelant in my life that I instinctively have these reaction. They're involuntary products of my subconscious mind. Only through exposure to individuals that fit the stereotype I've learned will I accept them as different and unlike the stereotype. We as human beings identify and group things unlike us as a product of our cognitive functions. Its an involuntary function of our make up.

Not offended but...

I'm going offer that in part stereotypes  are a by-products of our own cognitive bias.  What we perceive to be the truth is affirmed and reaffirmed by our intimation of truth.  It takes a great deal of self-reflection and the ability to perceive and undersand the ability of the human mind to not only construct a perceived reality, but see that reality manifest as fact.  That sort of mental block proves to be difficult to unravel and deconstruct.

The other counter I would offer falls under Gidden's structuration theory.  It's not so much that these observations are innate, it is more that fact that we construct the reality and the reality in return constructs and informs us.  The black male and the white male in your example adhere to what they are told to be.  You adhere to what you are told perceive.  It is the recognition that these stereotypes are NOT truth and in fact are part of the whole notion of social construct as a means to perpetuate and legitimize racist behavior then we begin to move beyond those impulses.

Which brings me to a question that may be out of the scope of the thread. Can an individual be racist if they've no concept of race or the adjoining stereotypes?

It depends.  It is one thing to say, genetically there is no such thing as race, and yet still understand that the rest of society does not operate on that maxim (though in Mass Effect genetic differences are a reality).  If that viewpoint debases the experience of a marginalized group then yes.  If that that viewpoint seeks to share this with others (as a means for changing and creating a better society) while respecting the experiences of the marginalized group then no.  I don't know if that makes sense or if i really answered what you were asking, but I'm sure you'll tell me.

[TobiTobsen]

Youknow wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Youknow wrote...

Thread exploded since I've been here. Anyways, the reason why, is that it's not racist. It's just a simple fact. They don't often allow such. Do aliens often come to do business on Earth? Do aliens often come to do business on any of the home planets? Probably not. The fact is, the statement is a compliment. It's basically saying "we don't just let anyone" come here. It's more a sign of trust than anything else.

He's still describing a policy that he is enforcing. Aliens generally aren't allowed to come to Tuchanka. The game doesn't imply that the toher races' homeworlds have a comparable policy.

Fair point. I suppose we'll have to wait for ME3 to see if that's the case. We don't know yet. 

Actually, at least in the german version, the doorguard is telling you that they will kill you immediately if the clan chief  says that you're not welcome. Not sending you back to your ship or something like that. In his words "you will know that you're not welcome, seconds before your death."

That's not really an open minded way of dealing with visitors.

[Veex]

Village Idiot wrote...

I'm going offer that in part stereotypes  are a by-products of our own cognitive bias.  What we perceive to be the truth is affirmed and reaffirmed by our intimation of truth.  It takes a great deal of self-reflection and the ability to perceive and undersand the ability of the human mind to not only construct a perceived reality, but see that reality manifest as fact.  That sort of mental block proves to be difficult to unravel and deconstruct.

The other counter I would offer falls under Gidden's structuration theory.  It's not so much that these observations are innate, it is more that fact that we construct the reality and the reality in return constructs and informs us.  The black male and the white male in your example adhere to what they are told to be.  You adhere to what you are told perceive.  It is the recognition that these stereotypes are NOT truth and in fact are part of the whole notion of social construct as a means to perpetuate and legitimize racist behavior then we begin to move beyond those impulses.

A good response, and one that I agree with in part. I'd counter to Gidden that stereotypes are not ENTIRELY true of a demographic or social group etc... however, there are individuals that fit those stereotypes. They wouldn't exist were they entirely false, because there would be no reference to substantiate them.

In relation to the construction of realities I've got no viable counter. Being self-aware of one's biases and beliefs should promote the ability to prove whether those beliefs are indeed factual. An addendum I would make is that for each individual levels of self-awareness may vary, and want to change those beliefs will also vary. Past experiences and encounters can make beliefs much more difficult to invalidate, or validate, between certain individuals. Were formerly the victim of a mugging by said white male, but the black male came to my aid, that will have a great subconscious effect on how quickly or wholly I can deconstruct those stereotypical notions.

In Ashley's case, and the case of other characters (even though we've not gotten entire histories), we can assume they've varying degrees of difficulty with confronting these thoughts. It simply doesn't surprise me that an individual raised in her family would harbor those prejudices.

Village Idiot wrote...

It depends.  It is one thing to say, genetically there is no such thing as race, and yet still understand that the rest of society does not operate on that maxim (though in Mass Effect genetic differences are a reality).  If that viewpoint debases the experience of a marginalized group then yes.  If that that viewpoint seeks to share this with others (as a means for changing and creating a better society) while respecting the experiences of the marginalized group then no. 

I had meant to posit that, in Grunt's case, I liken him to child who would plainly examine for example the differences in skin tone between himself a caucasian and the first Latin American he saw. Would that child saying "why is his skin dark?" qualify as racist? I think for a few folks in this thread it might.

This isn't exactly equal to Grunt obviously, as he's been formed under Okeer's training plan, but my perception of his scenes is that he doesn't care what species it is in his examples. If it were a Volus and he were detailing how he'd destroy it's breathing capacitor, rather than basically scalping a Turian, I wouldn't view it as racist so much as him having a pretty unhealthy lust for killing. Then again we'd have to start examining what killing means for Grunt in comparison to our own views and that would get all kinds of messy!

Modifié par Veex, 27 juin 2011 - 07:01 .

[Eurhetemec]

Veex wrote...

Good thread. I'm going to present something of an offensive notion below, and I expect many will take offense to it, but I've found this to be my experience with regards to racism.

Stereotypes exist for a reason and they're all derived from factual events. If I see a white male with a shaved head and tattoos I'm going to be weary. Conversely, if a black male wearing a doo rag and baggy clothing walks toward me I'm also going to instinctively have a reaction. I'm suggesting that these ideas were so prevelant in my life that I instinctively have these reaction. They're involuntary products of my subconscious mind. Only through exposure to individuals that fit the stereotype I've learned will I accept them as different and unlike the stereotype. We as human beings identify and group things unlike us as a product of our cognitive functions. Its an involuntary function of our make up.

The bolded bit simply isn't true in the way you're suggesting it is.

It would be true if people were:

A) Totally rational, logical and unemotional.

and

 Only trusted their own experiences, not those of others.

However, in the real world, that's simply not how it works.

Stereotypes are mostly not based on real, personal, experience, and even those that are often coloured insanely by emotion and selfishness and narrow-minded-ness. A good example would be the treatment of Jewish people in England in the 1100s. Laws meant that they could only do certain jobs - jobs Christians weren't allowed to do, like moneylenders. So they were stereotyped as "greedy", because like all moneylenders, they must call in their debts eventually, or go broke. It wasn't logical or rational, or fair, or based in an actual, objective reality to call them that. Any Christian moneylender would have done the same - but they didn't exist (legally, anyway).

You see a similar prejudice with the Quarians in ME. People call them thieves and so on, not because they are, but because they're easy to blame, because outside of the fleet, there's no-one to protect them, there's no real "Quarian society", and they don't stay in one place. So to re-iterate, most stereotypes don't actually stem from "real facts", they stem from self-serving lies or misrepresentations of the situation. It benefits people/society in ME to pretend that the Quarians are thieves, because they can attribute their own failings to them and so on. It benfitted Christians in England in the 1100s to blame Jewish people for being "greedy", when in fact it was their own greed, stupidity, and so on that got them into debt in the first place.

Saying all this, I don't think Ashley is a racist, particularly, but she is clearly a "human-nationalist". That's not unusual though - most Turians we encounter (not Garrus, notably, but most) are "Turian-nationalists", most Krogans are "Krogan-nationalists", many Salarians are "Salarian-nationalists" (the whole of the STG concept is such) and so on (not most Asari, though, unsurprising given how their reproduction works). So for her to be "racist", I think we'd have to regard most of the universe as racist, and that doesn't seem correct.

I don't think its wrong for Ashely, or any of the other characters, to be weary of aliens. She is a product of her upbringing and past experiences. She literally cannot control the fact that she is suspicious of Turians and Krogan for example. She may learn to tolerate and accept specific individuals from those species, and perhaps gain a broader understanding of a species as a whole, but she'll always carry those subconscious labels and ideologies.

I'd say the only real exception to this is Grunt, who being tank bred and literally programmed has no real concept of species. Okeer bred him to kill and to my recollection their isn't much he says with regards to a specific species, rather the Turians and Salarians are simply the memories recalled when expressing his learning about the kill. I don't think he's got the societal or parental influence ingrained in him yet to even acknowledge what specism would be.

Which brings me to a question that may be out of the scope of the thread. Can an individual be racist if they've no concept of race or the adjoining stereotypes?

We're all products of our experiences, but not just that - we're also products of our emotions, our lies to ourselves, of the things others tell us (whether true or false), and so on, so saying bad experiences excuse racism is a pernicious lie. They only excuse it in someone too stupid to be truly self-aware. Anyone smart enough to say "I think, therefore I am!" is smart enough to question their own behaviour and to reject their own racism.

We're not animals, we're sentient, and thus to say  "our experiences make us" on anything but a subconscious level is a cop-out. You have prejudices, but the rational brain can fight them or outright override them.

As for being racist without the concept of race, I'm pretty sure that you can be prejudiced in a specific way that so closely resembles racism that it is effectively the same thing without that concept. You can form your own stereotypes - most people do to some extent. The challenge is to be smart enough to understand that that's all they are - stereotypes, not facts.

You can also be wildly racist without being hateful. The ancient Romans were a good example of this. They had racial stereotypes for every perceived race, sub-race, regional ethnic group (even within Italy) and so on that you could possibly imagine, and almost none were just negative. Romans regarded people from Rome itself as stereotypically cunning but untrustworthy, for example. The racism still hurt people because it meant that people were simply assumed to be one way or another (for example that all people from one area were very clever but totally physically cowardly), leading to people making bad decisions about them.

The British Empire did a similar thing (look up "martial races" on Wikipedia if you want to see).

[jamesp81]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Youknow wrote...

Thread exploded since I've been here. Anyways, the reason why, is that it's not racist. It's just a simple fact. They don't often allow such. Do aliens often come to do business on Earth? Do aliens often come to do business on any of the home planets? Probably not. The fact is, the statement is a compliment. It's basically saying "we don't just let anyone" come here. It's more a sign of trust than anything else.

He's still describing a policy that he is enforcing. Aliens generally aren't allowed to come to Tuchanka. The game doesn't imply that the toher races' homeworlds have a comparable policy.

Lets remember that we're talking about Krogan here.

Aliens probably don't often do business on Earth.  The difference is, they don't shoot you on sight for being a non-human traveling to Earth.

Wrex was a lot more formal and nice about it, but the words of the spaceport's guard captain make it abundantly clear:

"The clan chief told us to let you through.  If we decide you're not welcome, you'll know right before we kill you."

Modifié par jamesp81, 27 juin 2011 - 07:51 .

[Veex]

Eurhetemec, great replies. I'm not sure I can counter the example you've given with regards to stereotypes not being factual as I'm not familiar enough with topic. I'd like to posit that there likely were instances of Jewish moneylenders using unfair practices to serve themselves, as you've pointed out all individuals tend to be self serving, but I've got no way to substantiate that. One thing I will address is the below quote... and I apologize for cherry picking.

Eurhetemec wrote...

We're not animals, we're sentient, and thus to say  "our experiences make us" on anything but a subconscious level is a cop-out. You have prejudices, but the rational brain can fight them or outright override them.

I completely and wholly agree that the rational brain is capable of overriding our subconscious beliefs. What I wonder is whether the rational brain is able to rewrite or invalidate the experiences or ideas harbored by our subconscious? If I have racist thoughts, but don't voice them, am I no longer a racist or have I simply learned that it is socially unacceptable to broadcast those thoughts?

I believe that, whether we deem it correct or moral, we all have these prejudices and beliefs ingrained in us to some extent. Whether they were born of experience or propoganda or our upbringing they exist. I also believe that it is completely acceptable to have those beliefs. What I wonder is to what extent does having those beliefs become racism, or in the case of Mass Effect do those utterances become specism? Is the utterance itself racist? Does a specific intent need to be present? 

In a nutshell, is it the way Ashley says things that makes her (to some) a racist, or is it what she says?

[Eurhetemec]

Veex wrote...

Eurhetemec, great replies. I'm not sure I can counter the example you've given with regards to stereotypes not being factual as I'm not familiar enough with topic. I'd like to posit that there likely were instances of Jewish moneylenders using unfair practices to serve themselves, as you've pointed out all individuals tend to be self serving, but I've got no way to substantiate that.

You don't need to substantiate it, because being humans, I'm sure it was true from time to time, but it's immaterial, because any human group would have used unfair business practices. It's not based on objective reality, rationality, or logic it's based on subjective perception and emotion. This is what I'm saying - strong stereotypes don't evolve from one group really being worse than other in some way, they evolve from it benefitting one group to stereotype the other.

You have to remember the social "echo chamber" effect. People repeat stereotypes and pass them on only when those stereotypes benefit them (or at least don't harm them). When stereotypes hurt them, they reject them. That's how it works.

I completely and wholly agree that the rational brain is capable of overriding our subconscious beliefs. What I wonder is whether the rational brain is able to rewrite or invalidate the experiences or ideas harbored by our subconscious?

Is it able to re-write it? Yes definitely, but you have to believe your own propaganda, as it were. If you genuinely consciously say "No, this is bollocks" and think about it enough, you will override the prejudices and build new instincts. It might take months or years but it unquestionably can be done. I've done it myself.

It is true that actual experiences will make it a lot easier, though, and allow even people who don't have the self-awareness or rationality to do that to manage to overcome prejudices.

If I have racist thoughts, but don't voice them, am I no longer a racist or have I simply learned that it is socially unacceptable to broadcast those thoughts?

Only you can know that for sure. There's clearly a difference, though, between someone who thinks the odd racist thought, and then thinks "That's stupid!", and someone who indulges themselves in all sorts of horribly racist thought, but is smart and cowardly enough to know that he's not allowed to say it. You know this difference. You've met both kinds of people. The first kind might accidentally say something racist when drunk then apologise profusely. The second kind, when drunk, will go on a horrible, degrading rant about how race X is ruining the country, and then when sober will either pretend he never said it or has no memory of it, or only very grudgingly apologise.

I believe that, whether we deem it correct or moral, we all have these prejudices and beliefs ingrained in us to some extent. Whether they were born of experience or propoganda or our upbringing they exist. I also believe that it is completely acceptable to have those beliefs. What I wonder is to what extent does having those beliefs become racism, or in the case of Mass Effect do those utterances become specism? Is the utterance itself racist? Does a specific intent need to be present?

Utterance contributes to the echo-chamber effect, so is certainly more racist than just thinking it. If you're just thinking it, you're not actively contributing to the echo-chamber, are you?

In a nutshell, is it the way Ashley says things that makes her (to some) a racist, or is it what she says?

I don't think she says anything particularly racist to my mind, just a little xenophobic. She doesn't have specific opinions of specific species. She feels non-humans as a whole, don't have human interests at heart. That's fairly rational/logical, and not hateful. She then goes on to suggest that humans should put humans first and be ready to ditch other species if necessary (bear vs. dog example). That is certainly species-nationalist/centrist, but again it don't think it makes the leap to actual unethical or purely emotional species-ism or racism, in that she thinks all non-human species equally don't have humanity's interests at heart, and she presents it as a rational rather than emotive thing.

I think she does struggle internally with perhaps some species-ism, because she's given to comparing non-human aliens to animals (not in an aggressive way), which to me reveals a subconscious attitude towards them, but that she's fighting it is a positive trait.

[Veex]

Eurhetemec wrote...

You don't need to substantiate it, because being humans, I'm sure it was true from time to time, but it's immaterial, because any human group would have used unfair business practices. It's not based on objective reality, rationality, or logic it's based on subjective perception and emotion. This is what I'm saying - strong stereotypes don't evolve from one group really being worse than other in some way, they evolve from it benefitting one group to stereotype the other.

You have to remember the social "echo chamber" effect. People repeat stereotypes and pass them on only when those stereotypes benefit them (or at least don't harm them). When stereotypes hurt them, they reject them. That's how it works.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I do empathize in part. What I'm wondering with the respect to the above is, if we acknowledge that individuals from any culture, race, or species may inevitably fit a stereotype, whether based in objective reality or not, is it not unwarranted to be weary of those individuals? Even if my premise is derived from an irrational and illogical concept, if it is potentially correct, can I be faulted for that? What I'm suggesting is that, if all races or species eventually fit a specific stereotype it isn't necessary wrong or immoral to respect those stereotypes or be cognizant (or not) of them.

Eurhetemec wrote...

I don't think she says anything particularly racist to my mind, just a little xenophobic. She doesn't have specific opinions of specific species. She feels non-humans as a whole, don't have human interests at heart. That's fairly rational/logical, and not hateful. She then goes on to suggest that humans should put humans first and be ready to ditch other species if necessary (bear vs. dog example). That is certainly species-nationalist/centrist, but again it don't think it makes the leap to actual unethical or purely emotional species-ism or racism, in that she thinks all non-human species equally don't have humanity's interests at heart, and she presents it as a rational rather than emotive thing.

I think she does struggle internally with perhaps some species-ism, because she's given to comparing non-human aliens to animals (not in an aggressive way), which to me reveals a subconscious attitude towards them, but that she's fighting it is a positive trait.

Bringing my point full circle here, I think we've come to the same conclusion by different means. I liken Ashley's fears to anyone's adherence to or belief in a real-world stereotype. They are not all encompassing, and they can be overriden or relearned, but I'm not convinced having them is inherently wrong. Ashley's beliefs in regards to other species (bear v dog) are tolerable in my opinion depending on to whom and where she voices those concerns and to what effect those concerns have on her abilities.

To give my position a little context, I had an African American teammate robbed at gun point in Boston while I was in college. His assailants were three other black males. He utters more stereotypical vitriol than I'm accustomed to, and I'm not sure I can fault him for that. It's incredibly uncomfortable for me, because he fits the stereotype from a visual perspective, but he won't ever be chastized for his views (not to his face, anyway).

[ObserverStatus]

GodWood wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
Murder Wrex? The last time I checked she defended her superior officer who was about to be murdered by a raging Krogan. On Shepards comand actually. What do you think Shep meant when he said that she should watch Wrex when he tried to talk with him.

Wrong, my orders were "just drop it, he'll be fine" but instead she decided to blow his head off.  Sure Wrex got mad, but everyone gets mad sometimes.  I can't have Ashley murdering my crewmembers whenever they get mad.

Shepard was failing at calming the enraged krogan and he had a shot-gun pointed at him.


She shot Wrex to save Shepard not because "GAH EH'S AN ALEEIN!!!ELEVENTYQ!"

What difference does that make?  I point my gun at Conrad Verner all the time.  Nobody on the citadel shot me because he failed to calm the enraged spectre.

[ObserverStatus]

mrsph wrote...

I don't really consider Ashley shooting Wrex to be murder. More like self-defense, since you know, he was pointing a gun at your face.

Whatever, I kill him myself. I assume Wrex would want it that way.

Pointing guns in people's faces isn't a big deal in the mass effect universe.  I draw my gun in conversations all the time, but I usually don't kill anyone.

[FrozenShadow]

Ashley clearly have prejudiced views about alien, no denying that. But most of that is because of personal history and lack of contact with other races. Now during her time in Normandy, her views does change milder. She will never be over-friendly with any alien, but not everyone need to be that way.

And then I don't know why people make it so big deal that Ashley might shoot Wrex. Because it's not really Ashley's choice. It's ultimately your choice if you want to kill Shep or not. If you didn't talk enough with Wrex to get his "LM" or otherwise travel the planet or even if you don't have enough Charm/intimidate, you had to kill him. But even when you had to kill him, you still choose the way to do. There is even chance where you specifically signal for Ashley to kill Wrex and then you can thank her for doing it. What was that then? Murder? Sign of racism? No, it was just following orders. Shep even asks Ashley to prepare for the possibility that things could go wrong, before he/she goes to talk Wrex.

So really, you can't use Ashley killing Wrex justification for her possible Anti-Alien tendency. Ashley does that, because you as Shep chose to let it come to that.

[1136342t54_]

bobobo878 wrote...
Pointing guns in people's faces isn't a big deal in the mass effect universe.  I draw my gun in conversations all the time, but I usually don't kill anyone.

Sorry I had to comment on this even though it seemed very off topic. Considering that your character Shepard has gunned down hundreds of mercenaries and Geth and even is responsible for thousands more I'd say Shepard has gun down plenty of people even in conversations.

Back on topic I didn't real everything in this thread yet but from what I'm seeing is that too many people are trying to contribute Ashley's pregidous with real world racism which in itself technically isn't racism since they are of the same species and the main differences are skin color and culture. Now Ashley's pregidous against Aliens isn't enlightening but its understandable and pragmatic. She doesn't believe that the Alliance should rely to much on aliens since they haven't necessarily earned humanity's trust and would always keep there interests at heart first. Thats understandable and actually smart to think about that since it doesn't make you too trust worthy and I wouldn't be that trust worthy of the Council races since multiple extinctions occured under there rule.

Now regarding her comments on aliens and the infamous "No fan of aliens." I don't see to much of a problem with that. Thats not the same as saying "I'm not fan of blacks or asians." aliens aren't humans and not really loving a particular species isn't racist its just her saying that she knows she isn't pro Council but she doesn't think that humanity's dominance is the only way to survive. I don't really take that literally because when Ashley mentions aliens she usually refers to her dislike of there nations and governments and less of what they are.

[Raiil]

I consider Ashley's murder/self-defence/whatever you call it to be game plot, and because it made more sense for her to do it. She's more of an action person than Kaidan is.

A lot of us have views on Ashley and others that are biased due to our own experiences; I said earlier that one of the reasons I just can't deal with her is because some of the stuff she says is far too close to things I've been hearing my whole life as a minority myself. It's a very YMMV situation.

Additionally, it's also shaded by how we used the characters. I was reading through tvtropes (don't judge me) at work today and came across some of the things Garrus says, and was rather surprised. Then I remembered that for my sole playthrough, I generally only took Garrus and Kaidan, and occasionally Garrus and Wrex. I only talked to Ashley on ship, and never heard any ambient dialogue between most of the crew members. Not everyone took all characters everywhere, and it probably shows.

[PrinceLionheart]

mrsph wrote...

I don't really consider Ashley shooting Wrex to be murder. More like self-defense, since you know, he was pointing a gun at your face.

Whatever, I kill him myself. I assume Wrex would want it that way.

Honestly of all the things people bash Ash for, I've always fetl the "She killed Wrex" thing to be the most idiotic. Wrex pulled a gun on Shep, no crap Ash would defend her superior officer.

I hate to say it though, but the reason Ash gets so much crap is, well because she's human. It's similar to how people started referring to her as a "religious nut" when she only brings up her spiritual belief once. Funny thing is others like Mordin, Samara, and especially Thane go more indepth with their beliefs. Thane even uses his beliefs as justifications for killing.

And in all honestly the more I play the Mass Effect games, the more I realize that quite a few characters, both party members and NPCs, make some racially insensitive comments; Ashley, Wrex, Tali, Garrus, Mordin, Liara, hell even Shepard ("Quarian with a belly ache" got meme treatment).

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 28 juin 2011 - 02:24 .

[Sierra Crysis]

Ashley's that southern church-every-sunday girl that was raised in a way that racism is drilled into her personality without her even able to help it. She's got a good heart and you can see it when she gets to realizing that aliens arn't that different than humans are. To be honest though she just didn't have any experience with them.. Her tour on the Normandy during ME1 was one of the first times she was ever off a human colony or core world and her whole heritage was black-listed because of stupidity and the Turian fleet.

It makes sense, and I like her as a character. What gets me though isn't what she says with her mouth, it's what she says with her eyes and her scrunched up nose that make me want to grab her by the collar and send her back to the ship. She looks down her nose at aliens before she gets to know them, and you just don't see that kind've reaction from other crewmates, not that I can remember though. (Well, I bet Tali gives some pretty nasty glares at Legion). Anyways, thats why I think she gets so much flak for it, it's multiplied of course by the fact that she's a LI and it's an easy way to justify why they picked Liara over her.