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[1136342t54_]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Ashley's that southern church-every-sunday girl that was raised in a way that racism is drilled into her personality without her even able to help it. She's got a good heart and you can see it when she gets to realizing that aliens arn't that different than humans are. To be honest though she just didn't have any experience with them.. Her tour on the Normandy during ME1 was one of the first times she was ever off a human colony or core world and her whole heritage was black-listed because of stupidity and the Turian fleet.

I don't agree with the whole church girl thing since that doesn't sound like her at all but I do agree that her experience with aliens has colored her views a bit.

It makes sense, and I like her as a character. What gets me though isn't what she says with her mouth, it's what she says with her eyes and her scrunched up nose that make me want to grab her by the collar and send her back to the ship. She looks down her nose at aliens before she gets to know them, and you just don't see that kind've reaction from other crewmates, not that I can remember though. (Well, I bet Tali gives some pretty nasty glares at Legion). Anyways, thats why I think she gets so much flak for it, it's multiplied of course by the fact that she's a LI and it's an easy way to justify why they picked Liara over her.

She doesn't necessarily looks down her nose at aliens but believe that aliens do that to humans in a way. Ash believes that the Council races will put there interests above humanity and humans are the underdog not the other way around.

[PrinceLionheart]

1136342t54 wrote...

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Ashley's that southern church-every-sunday girl that was raised in a way that racism is drilled into her personality without her even able to help it. She's got a good heart and you can see it when she gets to realizing that aliens arn't that different than humans are. To be honest though she just didn't have any experience with them.. Her tour on the Normandy during ME1 was one of the first times she was ever off a human colony or core world and her whole heritage was black-listed because of stupidity and the Turian fleet.

I don't agree with the whole church girl thing since that doesn't sound like her at all but I do agree that her experience with aliens has colored her views a bit.

It makes sense, and I like her as a character. What gets me though isn't what she says with her mouth, it's what she says with her eyes and her scrunched up nose that make me want to grab her by the collar and send her back to the ship. She looks down her nose at aliens before she gets to know them, and you just don't see that kind've reaction from other crewmates, not that I can remember though. (Well, I bet Tali gives some pretty nasty glares at Legion). Anyways, thats why I think she gets so much flak for it, it's multiplied of course by the fact that she's a LI and it's an easy way to justify why they picked Liara over her.

She doesn't necessarily looks down her nose at aliens but believe that aliens do that to humans in a way. Ash believes that the Council races will put there interests above humanity and humans are the underdog not the other way around.

Take her on the elevator with Garrus and Tali and she's actually pretty nice to the both of them. It's actually Garrus and Wrex who takes shots at Tali for the Quarians creating the geth.

[1136342t54_]

She actually is since I do remember those convos. To be honest I'd say Wrex and grunt are arguably the most 'racist' squadmates. They have there reasons which are completely understandable so I don't really have much of a problem with it.

[PrinceLionheart]

1136342t54 wrote...

She actually is since I do remember those convos. To be honest I'd say Wrex and grunt are arguably the most 'racist' squadmates. They have there reasons which are completely understandable so I don't really have much of a problem with it.

Honestly, the most "racist" comment I've actually heard in either the Mass Effect games was Jacob calling Garrus a "cuttlebone" if you dump him, and even that was rather tame (unless somehow Cuttlebone is somehow the N-Word Equivalent for Turians). Just about every major character shows a degree of speciesism, it's just when it came to Ashley, they went more in depth with her stances.

[1136342t54_]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Honestly, the most "racist" comment I've actually heard in either the Mass Effect games was Jacob calling Garrus a "cuttlebone" if you dump him, and even that was rather tame (unless somehow Cuttlebone is somehow the N-Word Equivalent for Turians). Just about every major character shows a degree of speciesism, it's just when it came to Ashley, they went more in depth with her stances.

I think with Ashley they were trying to show a certain more cynical view point some people in the Alliance held regarding aliens. These are the people who were likely wary of alien cultural, political and military influence. Now thats not really a bad thing since we know that the Asari in a way practice cultural indoctrination. They use there culture to gain power in the galaxy and of course some people in the Alliance would want there ideas to be more prevalent in the galaxy.

[Sierra Crysis]

1136342t54 wrote...
I don't agree with the whole church girl thing since that doesn't sound like her at all but I do agree that her experience with aliens has colored her views a bit.

By church-going, I don't mean evangelical praise the lord type, but I can easily see her making it to the church every sunday or saying grace before dinner. It's in her heritage.

She doesn't necessarily looks down her nose at aliens but believe that aliens do that to humans in a way. Ash believes that the Council races will put there interests above humanity and humans are the underdog not the other way around.

Have you seen those facial expressions she makes? Girl has a snarl like you wouldn't believe. She doesn't have to say anything for you to read her face and hear all the vulgarities your mind can think of.

[1136342t54_]

Sierra Crysis wrote...
By church-going, I don't mean evangelical praise the lord type, but I can easily see her making it to the church every sunday or saying grace before dinner. It's in her heritage.

To be honest I'm not really that sure that she is Christian or if it is in her heritage. There really isn't any hint of that from what we know in her family history. 

Have you seen those facial expressions she makes? Girl has a snarl like you wouldn't believe. She doesn't have to say anything for you to read her face and hear all the vulgarities your mind can think of.

Those facial expressions she makes are usually those of a pissed off person who is tired of being put down because of there family history and aliens who think they are better than her. Thats a pissed off underdog not smug woman. 

[Sierra Crysis]

1136342t54 wrote...
To be honest I'm not really that sure that she is Christian or if it is in her heritage. There really isn't any hint of that from what we know in her family history. 

Well we know she buried her dad, which seems aloft from say blasting them into space or incinerating them that would probably be the norm of the day. We also know she believes he went to heaven or wherever. Whether it's Christian or not, it seems to be based on Christianity.  And those expressions look more like... "Ew.." Or.. "No-good-aliens.." than offended or angry. This of course could be me relating it to some of her dialogue and nothing at all.

I wasn't trying to imply there that her Christianity/Or whatever, lets just say belief, has to do with her racism, I was just trying saying what she reminds me of.

Modifié par Sierra Crysis, 28 juin 2011 - 05:57 .

[1136342t54_]

Sierra Crysis wrote...
Well we know she buried her dad, which seems aloft from say blasting them into space or incinerating them that would probably be the norm of the day. We also know she believes he went to heaven or wherever. Whether it's Christian or not, it seems to be based on Christianity.  And those expressions look more like... "Ew.." Or.. "No-good-aliens.." than offended or angry. This of course could be me relating it to some of her dialogue and nothing at all.

I wasn't trying to imply there that her Christianity/Or whatever, lets just say belief has to do with her racism, I was just trying saying what she reminds me of.

I see what your trying to say but it wouldn't make much sense since Christianity doesn't really seem that against aliens. Even Cerberus had to assasinate a pope because he wasn't as pro human as they wanted. In Revelations they talked about how many religions had to adapt to the possibility of alien species and become more accepting of it. More than likely Religion doesn't have anything to do with it if it did I would be really dissappointed with Bioware.

[DoNotIngest]

Uh oh. Religion on an internet gaming forum thread about racism.

[Aggie Punbot]

Add something about abortions and we have the trifecta of ******.

[falconlord5]

Ash's views actually tend to more realpolitik, then racism.

Ash expects politicians of all races to utter snots (and, lets face it, they are). She's expecting a double cross based on political expiedency (which we see, multiple times, from every politician in the game). It's a cynical look at the world, but BioWare seems to back her up: every time things get tight, somebody will screw you over.

Also, if a senior NCO didn't mention the dangers of having several foreign nationals (which is what alien means, by the way) on board a highly advanced frigate, they should be stripped of rank. Even if the commander has good reasons for what they're doing, they should be aware of the problems inherent in such a plan.

[KyreneZA]

jamesp81 wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk? The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Quarians live a hand to mouth existence and they have to scramble to make ends meet.  It would not be a stretch to think Tali might sell information on the construction of the Normandy to raise funds for the Migrant Fleet.

^ this. Whether or not the migrant fleet is a threat, Tali stealing data (or asking for data like with the geth data for her Pilgrimage) is the bigger immediate security threat. And she's forever in the engine room, the nasty little thieving gypsy.

[Eire Icon]

Kyrene wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Why would you consider Tali a greater security risk? The Alliance could wipe out the migrant fleet in a heartbeat

Quarians live a hand to mouth existence and they have to scramble to make ends meet.  It would not be a stretch to think Tali might sell information on the construction of the Normandy to raise funds for the Migrant Fleet.

^ this. Whether or not the migrant fleet is a threat, Tali stealing data (or asking for data like with the geth data for her Pilgrimage) is the bigger immediate security threat. And she's forever in the engine room, the nasty little thieving gypsy.

That may well be true and maybe Ash was incorrect to discount her, but surely if nothing else it proves that there was no racism against aliens behind her comments as otherwise surely Tali would have been included

[corrin1984]

Well the Migrant Fleet is the single biggest Fleet in the galaxy. And they are also hidden... so it'd be pretty hard for the Alliance to FIND them... much less attack them. I'm sure it's been said, but Ashley hasn't ever hidden the fact she's got no love for aliens. Certain ones she respects, and she realizes humans have to play nice with everyone else in the galactic sandbox. But... heck, her racism isn't a new thing. Saren was extremely racist against humans, yet was still a Spectre. Her distrust of alien species just is apart of her character. I'd much rather see her evolve from her ME1 days than just be a goody goody from day 1.

[KyreneZA]

Eire Icon wrote...

That may well be true and maybe Ash was incorrect to discount her, but surely if nothing else it proves that there was no racism against aliens behind her comments as otherwise surely Tali would have been included

Yes. We've established that. A... while... ago... in... fact.

While you and I both know that, her comments can clearly still be construed as racist, else why this thread? Or is everyone claiming that she's racist just one of the politically oversensitive?

[ScotGaymer]

I dont get the claims that Ashley is racist.

I never found her to be. Didnt agree with her of course but I didnt think it was racism. I think personally it is more a reactionary response to her religion than anything else.

[Garrison2009]

Eire Icon wrote...

The whole Ashley is a racist argument is bordering on the ridiculous. At no stage does she ever give the impression that she hates aliens. Suspicion concern or distrust does not equal racism. Ashley doubts the motives and intent of Cerberus also, does that make her racist against humanity?

The concerns she raises over allowing aliens access to the systems of the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet are completely legitimate. The UN are "allies" but I don't see them sharing their top militry classified technology with each other. That dosent make them racist, its just makes them understandibly cautious.

Ash dosen't get on with Liara, but at no stage is that put down to the fact she is an alien. After Noveria she specifically asks Shepard to check on Liara to make sure she's ok, and if she is Shep's LI and Shep has to choose between the two, she express's sympathy for Liara. Again these are not the actions of a racist person

What some appear to be doing is taking Ashleys position on various things and attributing that stance to her hatred of aliens. That is completely inaccurate. Its like taking the Jacob/Tali argument and concluding that Jacob is sexist !

This I think is THE perfect explanation of what Ashley's real intent is, which people either (A) dont understand, or ( intentionally dont listen to.

[Sierra Crysis]

1136342t54 wrote...

I see what your trying to say but it wouldn't make much sense since Christianity doesn't really seem that against aliens. Even Cerberus had to assasinate a pope because he wasn't as pro human as they wanted. In Revelations they talked about how many religions had to adapt to the possibility of alien species and become more accepting of it. More than likely Religion doesn't have anything to do with it if it did I would be really dissappointed with Bioware.

Again, I'm not trying to say Christianity is against aliens here. Infact I just pointed that out on my last post, albeit could have probably used a comma there. Everyone slow-down XD

[Wereparrot]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I dont get the claims that Ashley is racist.

I agree. I think this really comes down to a matter of personal politics, but I think Ashley is right to be hesitant to trust aliens. You do not let a foreign national onto a warship unless you have a pledge of allegiance from the individuals concerned, which Shepherd and the Alliance/Cerburus do not have. 

I think that most people in this thread and most people within Mass Effect (and indeed, Shepherd) are labouring under the dangerous assumption that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. The enemy of your enemy is not neccessarily your friend, as the French found out to their cost when the Armagnac-Bergundian Civil War was raging at the same time as Henry V mounted his Agincourt campaign during the Hundred Years War. It was partly due to the French inability to unite themselves that the English trashed the French. A simple comparison, no doubt, but nevertheless apt. And it's through blind trust that we now have issues of Islamist treason and other foreign crime within our midst. What's to say (other than the storyline) that the aliens on board the Normandy don't follow their own ends and won't mutiny, for whatever reason? We all know the batarians now have reason to fight Shepherd, even in the face of a greater threat.

[MadCat221]

The telltale sign of Ash being a racist was her comparison of nonhuman sapients to a lifeform that is less than sapient. Remember her dog comparison?  It's one thing not to trust them, it's another to say that they'd abandon them if they became inconvenient.  That there is the definition of racism: favoring one's race to the detriment of others.

Modifié par MadCat221, 29 juin 2011 - 03:40 .

[slimshedim]

BluMighty wrote...

Am I the only one who noticed that while Ashley has been trashed for being "racist", other crewmates in both Mass Effect 1 and 2 make racist comments as well? 





Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I've been marathoning the Mass Effect series this week, and I just happened to notice that Ashley isn't the only one guilty of making racist remarks, but yet, she's the only one ever called out on it.

Where's racism in these links, especially in the first linked vid? Compare those comments to Ashe's dog comment, for instance and you might learn something.

Why do people consider Ashley Williams as a racist? Maybe because she is an openly racist christian, who excels at annoying people with her silly poetry, her religious BS, her billions of complexes/issues and the ability to include racist remarks in almost every situation or dialogue option. Maybe that's why.

I'm glad you can let her die on Virmire but then you're stuck with the exceptionally boring wussy Kaidan. At least he's got no screws loose...but also no interesting personality.

Modifié par slimshedim, 29 juin 2011 - 05:22 .

[littlezack]

MadCat221 wrote...

The telltale sign of Ash being a racist was her comparison of nonhuman sapients to a lifeform that is less than sapient. Remember her dog comparison?  It's one thing not to trust them, it's another to say that they'd abandon them if they became inconvenient.  That there is the definition of racism: favoring one's race to the detriment of others.

In that comparison, humans were the dog.