551 réponses à ce sujet

[dahoughtonuk]

Unfortunately not.Ash is an understandably Paranoid human. I wish you could say better the Turian I chose, and impressing these two species is a good idea.

But there a human speciest in the game. And no, it's not Miranda. (She'd certainly throw the dog under the bear though).

When you look at Jacob's behaviour, individually everything is subtle and could be passed of as clumsy, but together it adds up. So Ash an honest and straight thinking person is assumed to be racist because she stated things that are not supposed to be stated but needed to be.

Whereas the racist subtly makes things more uncomfortable for the aliens. And yet he's generally a good man.
.,

[Fiery Phoenix]

ashlover mark 2 wrote...

*air qotes* AH YES!! Ashley williams is a racist,the oppion of ash haters who obviously misunderstand her charecter,Pffft ash fans and supporters have dissmised that claim.

here we go again..............

1. Ash is not a racist. Never once in the entire game dose ash say she dose not like aliens because they are aliens. She may find them weird looking and odd but that's because before Eden Prime and meeting Shepard she had never seen or meet any.

on Virmire Ash does not kill Wrex because he's a Krogan and she doesn't like him,ash kills Wrex because he is a tank with a shotgun pointed at her commander (and possible boy friend) not to mention Shepard tells ash "be ready" which pretty much says to me "hey watch my back if i get into trouble with this guy help me out".
I'd say a pissed off Krogan battlemaster firing shotgun blasts into the water,is pretty damn dangerous.
not to mention during that same mission if you send Williams with the Salarian STG team ash clearly says that she is uncomfortable working under someone else command and that she has gotten used to working with Shepard and his team including the aliens.

On board the Normandy when ash tells Shepard that she doesn't think that Garrus and Wrex should be allowed into vital and restricted systems, isn't out of racism its because she doesn't KNOW these people. Shepard lets random people who he/she literary picked up off the street onto the most advanced warship in the galaxy and lets them poke around where ever they like. She doesn't know if she can trust these people not to run off and betray their trust in any number of ways,shes only known them for like 3 days maybe more.in the end all she did was voice a concern about a possible security risk and BLATANT security breach.

2. Now onto xenophobia, Ash dose NOT HAVE A IRRATIONAL FEAR OF ALIENS! she is not afraid that humanity will lose itself by integrating into the council nor dose she say that humanity should go it alone and screw the rest of the alien races,nor dose she believe that humans are superior.

Ash has a cynical view that a lot people tend to have even in today's society. She believes that the Council will always do whats best for itself and if the Alliance ever needs there help in a dire situation the Council will not come to the rescue. That's not a racist view or a xenophobic view its the view of a patriotic soldier who wants whats best for her people. It's not as if the the Council and the Alliance were buddy buddy anyway they had numerous issues with one another at any moment a war could have broken out over any number of things.

Her dog and the bear analogy simply says that if the Council is the owner humanity is the dog and a great threat against the galaxy is the Bear. The owner in a bid to survive will let the dog loose to fight the bear while they run away from danger. Not because of racism but because humanity is not their own. It is not racism to care about your own people over others. It's not as if the Council doesn't have a history of doing this in the first place they used the Krogan to wipe out the Rachni they used the Turians to decimate the Krogan and when the Geth invaded the Attican Zraverse they used the Alliance to shield them from the Geth.

In short you want a true and clear view at racism and xenophobia i suggest you read Mass effect retribution and pay attention to Kai Leng he is are obviously afraid of alien cultures and influences and has a great distaste for aliens.ash shares nothing in common with him.

You have been friend-requested.

[KyreneZA]

dahoughtonuk wrote...

When you look at Jacob's behaviour, individually everything is subtle and could be passed of as clumsy, but together it adds up.

Whereas the racist subtly makes things more uncomfortable for the aliens. And yet he's generally a good man.

Oh agreed. Like his little parting comment to Tali about the ship's AI, after the debriefing, when you first recruit her. That comment alone earns him the vents every time!

[CrookedAsylum]

King Zeel wrote...

mrsph wrote...

King Zeel wrote...

incoming fangirl. I guess LOOKING AFTER THE HUMAN RACE SURVIVAL IS PETTY.

My romance is Jacob.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Jacob has a confirmed spot in me3.


If you're going to lie, do it properly.

Obvious troll is obvious.

That being said, I think the reason Ashley is ragged on all the time is because she's very open and, to a degree, unwilling to budge about her opinion towards aliens.

[Eromenos]

BluMighty wrote...

Am I the only one who noticed that while Ashley has been trashed for being "racist", other crewmates in both Mass Effect 1 and 2 make racist comments as well? 





Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I've been marathoning the Mass Effect series this week, and I just happened to notice that Ashley isn't the only one guilty of making racist remarks, but yet, she's the only one ever called out on it.

We tend to come down on her more harshly because she's one of us. She is like us and/or the people we happen to know. No other human in ME1 voices wary sentiments so visibly toward non-humans as she does, and that hits a raw nerve because we have infinitely unattended race issues just IRL.

I can understand where she was coming from, because she lacked firsthand socialization around non-humans prior to the events of ME1. In addition to family history. Ashley's a grunt with a chip on her shoulder, yet she is somewhat aware of her flaw. This is not to say we should excuse her attitude, no.She may learn, she may not. I continually judge her against a higher standard precisely because she is one of us, even while keeping in mind her disadvantages in the educational divide and that any potential progress on her part won't be so simple as flipping a switch.

Modifié par Eromenos, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:47 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Kyrene wrote...

dahoughtonuk wrote...

When you look at Jacob's behaviour, individually everything is subtle and could be passed of as clumsy, but together it adds up.

Whereas the racist subtly makes things more uncomfortable for the aliens. And yet he's generally a good man.

Oh agreed. Like his little parting comment to Tali about the ship's AI, after the debriefing, when you first recruit her. That comment alone earns him the vents every time!

And Tali's totally ****yness to him earns her a pat on the back?

[budzai]

racism is overrated nowdays

[KyreneZA]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

dahoughtonuk wrote...

When you look at Jacob's behaviour, individually everything is subtle and could be passed of as clumsy, but together it adds up.

Whereas the racist subtly makes things more uncomfortable for the aliens. And yet he's generally a good man.

Oh agreed. Like his little parting comment to Tali about the ship's AI, after the debriefing, when you first recruit her. That comment alone earns him the vents every time!

And Tali's totally ****yness to him earns her a pat on the back?

Having served on the SR1 does earn her some points, but the point is that ****iness is a lot more forgivable than racism in my book.

[lumen11]

I wouldn't go sofar as to call Ashley racist, but to me she is clearly exhibiting the kind of fears of aliens (whether they be human or not doesn't really matter) that makes people in general eventually say or do truly racist things. To my mind racism as a group behaviour always starts out with fear of the unknown. So call it racism or potentially racist remarks, but with Ashley these kinds of feelings are much more pronounced than with the other characters.

Still, it's good that her being racist or not is still a topic of debate. It means the writers have done their job extremely well in this respect.

[PrinceLionheart]

Kyrene wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

dahoughtonuk wrote...

When you look at Jacob's behaviour, individually everything is subtle and could be passed of as clumsy, but together it adds up.

Whereas the racist subtly makes things more uncomfortable for the aliens. And yet he's generally a good man.

Oh agreed. Like his little parting comment to Tali about the ship's AI, after the debriefing, when you first recruit her. That comment alone earns him the vents every time!

And Tali's totally ****yness to him earns her a pat on the back?

Having served on the SR1 does earn her some points, but the point is that ****iness is a lot more forgivable than racism in my book.

How is telling Tali there's an A.I. on the ship racist? I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense.

[Badpie]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

ashlover mark 2 wrote...

*air qotes* AH YES!! Ashley williams is a racist,the oppion of ash haters who obviously misunderstand her charecter,Pffft ash fans and supporters have dissmised that claim.

here we go again..............

1. Ash is not a racist. Never once in the entire game dose ash say she dose not like aliens because they are aliens. She may find them weird looking and odd but that's because before Eden Prime and meeting Shepard she had never seen or meet any.

on Virmire Ash does not kill Wrex because he's a Krogan and she doesn't like him,ash kills Wrex because he is a tank with a shotgun pointed at her commander (and possible boy friend) not to mention Shepard tells ash "be ready" which pretty much says to me "hey watch my back if i get into trouble with this guy help me out".
I'd say a pissed off Krogan battlemaster firing shotgun blasts into the water,is pretty damn dangerous.
not to mention during that same mission if you send Williams with the Salarian STG team ash clearly says that she is uncomfortable working under someone else command and that she has gotten used to working with Shepard and his team including the aliens.

On board the Normandy when ash tells Shepard that she doesn't think that Garrus and Wrex should be allowed into vital and restricted systems, isn't out of racism its because she doesn't KNOW these people. Shepard lets random people who he/she literary picked up off the street onto the most advanced warship in the galaxy and lets them poke around where ever they like. She doesn't know if she can trust these people not to run off and betray their trust in any number of ways,shes only known them for like 3 days maybe more.in the end all she did was voice a concern about a possible security risk and BLATANT security breach.

2. Now onto xenophobia, Ash dose NOT HAVE A IRRATIONAL FEAR OF ALIENS! she is not afraid that humanity will lose itself by integrating into the council nor dose she say that humanity should go it alone and screw the rest of the alien races,nor dose she believe that humans are superior.

Ash has a cynical view that a lot people tend to have even in today's society. She believes that the Council will always do whats best for itself and if the Alliance ever needs there help in a dire situation the Council will not come to the rescue. That's not a racist view or a xenophobic view its the view of a patriotic soldier who wants whats best for her people. It's not as if the the Council and the Alliance were buddy buddy anyway they had numerous issues with one another at any moment a war could have broken out over any number of things.

Her dog and the bear analogy simply says that if the Council is the owner humanity is the dog and a great threat against the galaxy is the Bear. The owner in a bid to survive will let the dog loose to fight the bear while they run away from danger. Not because of racism but because humanity is not their own. It is not racism to care about your own people over others. It's not as if the Council doesn't have a history of doing this in the first place they used the Krogan to wipe out the Rachni they used the Turians to decimate the Krogan and when the Geth invaded the Attican Zraverse they used the Alliance to shield them from the Geth.

In short you want a true and clear view at racism and xenophobia i suggest you read Mass effect retribution and pay attention to Kai Leng he is are obviously afraid of alien cultures and influences and has a great distaste for aliens.ash shares nothing in common with him.

You have been friend-requested.

Nothing really to add here...

[Telemachus78]

Badpie wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

ashlover mark 2 wrote...

*air qotes* AH YES!! Ashley williams is a racist,the oppion of ash haters who obviously misunderstand her charecter,Pffft ash fans and supporters have dissmised that claim.

here we go again..............

1. Ash is not a racist. Never once in the entire game dose ash say she dose not like aliens because they are aliens. She may find them weird looking and odd but that's because before Eden Prime and meeting Shepard she had never seen or meet any.

on Virmire Ash does not kill Wrex because he's a Krogan and she doesn't like him,ash kills Wrex because he is a tank with a shotgun pointed at her commander (and possible boy friend) not to mention Shepard tells ash "be ready" which pretty much says to me "hey watch my back if i get into trouble with this guy help me out".
I'd say a pissed off Krogan battlemaster firing shotgun blasts into the water,is pretty damn dangerous.
not to mention during that same mission if you send Williams with the Salarian STG team ash clearly says that she is uncomfortable working under someone else command and that she has gotten used to working with Shepard and his team including the aliens.

On board the Normandy when ash tells Shepard that she doesn't think that Garrus and Wrex should be allowed into vital and restricted systems, isn't out of racism its because she doesn't KNOW these people. Shepard lets random people who he/she literary picked up off the street onto the most advanced warship in the galaxy and lets them poke around where ever they like. She doesn't know if she can trust these people not to run off and betray their trust in any number of ways,shes only known them for like 3 days maybe more.in the end all she did was voice a concern about a possible security risk and BLATANT security breach.

2. Now onto xenophobia, Ash dose NOT HAVE A IRRATIONAL FEAR OF ALIENS! she is not afraid that humanity will lose itself by integrating into the council nor dose she say that humanity should go it alone and screw the rest of the alien races,nor dose she believe that humans are superior.

Ash has a cynical view that a lot people tend to have even in today's society. She believes that the Council will always do whats best for itself and if the Alliance ever needs there help in a dire situation the Council will not come to the rescue. That's not a racist view or a xenophobic view its the view of a patriotic soldier who wants whats best for her people. It's not as if the the Council and the Alliance were buddy buddy anyway they had numerous issues with one another at any moment a war could have broken out over any number of things.

Her dog and the bear analogy simply says that if the Council is the owner humanity is the dog and a great threat against the galaxy is the Bear. The owner in a bid to survive will let the dog loose to fight the bear while they run away from danger. Not because of racism but because humanity is not their own. It is not racism to care about your own people over others. It's not as if the Council doesn't have a history of doing this in the first place they used the Krogan to wipe out the Rachni they used the Turians to decimate the Krogan and when the Geth invaded the Attican Zraverse they used the Alliance to shield them from the Geth.

In short you want a true and clear view at racism and xenophobia i suggest you read Mass effect retribution and pay attention to Kai Leng he is are obviously afraid of alien cultures and influences and has a great distaste for aliens.ash shares nothing in common with him.

You have been friend-requested.

Nothing really to add here...

Ashlover you are the man!!

[Pups_of_war_76]

It is because people are filled with poop!

[Dasher1010]

Ashley doesn't like Turians? So?

Wrex doesn't like Salarians,

Garrus does'nt like Quarians.

Tali absolutely hates the Geth.

Grunt hates Turians.

Jacob doesn't like Turians either.

Miranda dislikes aliens in general

Zaeed doesn't like Batarians.

Point being, it's more than Just Ashley. Also, well written character have flaws.

[GodWood]

I don't remember Miranda ever expressing a dislike for aliens.

[Sierra Crysis]

I think people take the term racist a little too defensively in today's society. They look at the word and they immediately pair it off with slavery and the people they see that bash on the minorities with their vulgarities (or fist); and while yes it can be used in that way, I don't think it should always be assumed that because someone is racist that they are one of those people.

I believe there are varying degrees of racism that almost everyone in life has to some extent, whether it's you being uncomfortable in the presence of another culture or race, that you don't trust or are easily suspicious of, or it's okay for them to do something that it's not okay for someone else to, or maybe you're just quicker to judge one. My point is this.. You may like someone a great deal of a race, you may like many people of that race, but what you may not like is perhaps them living on your land or integrating with your neighbors, you might not like to see them coupled with another race or having access to things. There's MANY degrees of racism in my opinion, and I believe that Ashley does exert a few of these traits. Do I think she's a horrible person for them?

Nope.. Far from it, Ash is one of my favorite characters in the series and there are many of your other team members that exert a similar attitude and are possibly more racist than she is. The fact that she is vulnerable and has these flaws is part of her biggest charm, and I wouldn't change her if I could.

The fact that people use the term racism as a means to easily hate/justify her dying on Virmire is terrible, but not anymore terrible than the people that justify killing Kaiden because he has Carth's voice, or is sensitive, or really any of the reasons people hate the characters of ME2. People will pick at the first thing about a character because they've already decided long before they get to know them that they're not cool enough or they arn't as interesting as the characters they like more.

Again: While Racism isn't positive by any stretch, it's a very realistic and very evident trait in today's society. And just because someone is racist doesn't mean they're purposely trying to undermine the race/species as a whole or are out to punch/kill/spit in all of their eyes. But I would definitely count holding a scar about the first contact war or thinking higher of your own species than any other as a form of Racism. And while you may point out that she was simply saying the council would eat dismiss humanity than suffer, that whole strand of logic had to come from her own thoughts, and the fact that she can justify/sympathize/argue the council doing so (if they would) means that she agrees with them to some extent.

As a side note, her being suspicious of just the Turians and Krogans that have access to Alliance tech and not say, any other crew member, herself included, is suspect. But more so is her ability to come forward and mention it to you, calling them by race and not their names. The Normandy was a top secret vessel, and though Ash has a record she wasn't originally cleared for the crew, infact, she was purposely grounded by her superiors for the longest. Isn't that grounds for suspicion? Where was Kaiden to come forward and say, "I'm not so sure Ashley should have clearence commander." He didn't, and it takes a certain kind've person to say that, and another one all together to call them out by something other than their names.

It's all very subtle, but in my MEverse, it's there, and it's tolerable. She doesn't have to call them slang names to have it be detectable.

[MisterJB]

Dasher1010 wrote...
Miranda dislikes aliens in general
 

No, she doesn't. Just because she believes in the advacement of humanity, doesn't mean she automatically dislikes aliens.
She expresses an appreciation of the Asari culture, going so far as to claim that humanity could learn a lot from them. One of the only people in the galaxy who knows about Oriana is an Asari and she is all for helping the Salarians trapped in Nassana's tower. Also, she expresses disgust over the fact that many join Cerberus out of xenophobia.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 juillet 2011 - 10:35 .

[Smeelia]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

The Normandy was a top secret vessel, and though Ash has a record she wasn't originally cleared for the crew, infact, she was purposely grounded by her superiors for the longest. Isn't that grounds for suspicion? Where was Kaiden to come forward and say, "I'm not so sure Ashley should have clearence commander."

To be fair, she's officially transferred to your crew (by Anderson, while it's his crew) so she has as much right and clearance to be there as any other crew member.  Kaidan wouldn't know about Ashley's records and it wouldn't be his place to question the crew decisions of his commanding officers (especially since he's not even second in command).

[O Tucker]

MisterJB wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
Miranda dislikes aliens in general
 

No, she doesn't. Just because she believes in the advacement of humanity, doesn't mean she automatically dislikes aliens.
She expresses an appreciation of the Asari culture, going so far as to claim that humanity could learn a lot from them. One of the only people in the galaxy who knows about Oriana is an Asari and she is all for helping the Salarians trapped in Nassana's tower. Also, she expresses disgust over the fact that many join Cerberus out of xenophobia.

So true and i agree 100%

[Lasien]

Valentia X wrote...

BluMighty wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I could. But it's not a focus of their character. Ashley's latent distrust- whether you think it's justified or not, I won't say who is right or wrong- of aliens is a part of her. After the clusterf--k of bad press her dad or granddad went through for surrendering, it's something that's at least somewhat ingrained. She focuses on it enough that people picked up on it more.

I find the vast majority of characters, if not racist, then more focused and partial to their own race and culture. The people you pick up tend to be somewhat different- Thane's concern for the human innocents, Samara has a distinct fondness for humans and their culture- but even then, their concern, largely, for humans is through either the collector threat or out of personal loyalty to Shepard instead of 'innocents are disappearing, we must do something!'

It's like a window into today's society. I don't see much difference.

Still, you chose to mention how chilling it was to hear Ashley say those things....How it hit close to home? Is not what Garrus said also somewhat familiar? I know I've heard a lot of "not-racists" say that second line.

Because it was quite similiar to stuff I've heard before. 


You need a personal example? Oh, the aliens will use us? My grandmother said the same thing about my mother (Korean) when my parents first got married.

The Ashley and Liara confrontation? I've never had a showdown like that (too lazy for that s--t lol) but I've been told to back off because I wasn't the 'right' race.

Garrus doesn't talk about it nearly as often, he even admits that his perception is wrong in the first video, and it's not part and parcel of his character in the same way it is for Ashley.

I don't know if anyone said this or not, but I always heard the confrontation as "you want to sleeo with the ****s of the galaxy!?!" That is pretty much the perception of the asari. And the majority let people believe that.

I also never saw her as racist, more like she was mistrustful of the other races because of things they had done to the human race. The turians attacked with no provocation. The krogans have a tendency to shoot first and never ask a question, And, like udina says, the council asked the humans to settle a dangerous area, then wont help when a problem crops up.

When it comes right down to it, Ashley basically says that we should watch our backs, because the council basically sees us as a blunt instrument to use. Use it till it is no longer useful, then throw it away.
The conversation where people are saying you change her from speciesist to not is really just pointing out that if you never trust anyone, you will be on your own when you need help.

[Lasien]

Also, Ash always say the can't tell aliens from animals line near an elcor, keeper or hanar. None are humanoid, so if you have not come in contact with one and are humanoid, you would not automatically assume they were intelligent life.

[Badpie]

Calling Ash racist is just silly. I'd like to point out that she's also the only squad member in ME1 who blatantly speaks out specifically against racism.

At worst, Ash was ignorant and had a lot to learn about non-humans. That's all.

[Pups_of_war_76]

I think people often just latch onto some of the ~questionable~ comments she makes when they need a crutch to help them articulate their dislike of her general demeanor.

[Golden Owl]

I used to consider Ash stongly xenophobic...until a discussion I had with some other forum members and I replayed ME1 and listened to what she had to say....b*tchy, cynical and quite negative...yes...xenophobic...not really....aside from her comment in ME2 about being no fan of aliens, which I believe does sound rather xenophobic, there really isn't that strong a case from ME1, it's just her being b*tchy (Liara reference) and cynical....I think it's Ashley's consistant negativity that is really the under lying factor that irks people....Same goes for Jacob....there's nothing really wrong with him, his just a guy, but he is also consistantly negative...Constant negativity does grate on the nerves after a while.