551 réponses à ce sujet

[V-rex]

S.A.K wrote...
Grunt has some real reason to hate Turians because of the Genophage. And Tali hates Geth because they killed billions of her people. Mordin never says anything to suggest he hate anyone(If he does please give me a link). But why does Ashly hate aliens?

'Hate' is an incredibly strong word and if you ask me it simply doesn't apply here. Ashley is at best uncomfortable around them because she's never worked with them before and distrustful of them because of bad family history.
Said bad family history is that her grandfather was the first human ever to surrender to an alien race and subsequently her family name has been blacklisted by the Alliance and she's had to live with that stigma her whole life.

That said if you read my huge post on the first page, there are quite a few things that Ashley says and does that contradict the idea that she's some kind of crazy alien hating psycho.

Modifié par V-rex, 26 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[Collider]

V-rex wrote...

Collider wrote...

Possibly because she's confused by how Shepard would find an alien attractive considering they ARE completely different species.

Ashley must have kept her eyes closed on the Citadel, because everywhere you turn there is an asari flirting or in a relationship with another species. Including humans, who are watching the asari dancers. For Ashely not to get the picture that humans are attracted to asari would be incredibly dense.

You can see something happen, and be aware that it does happen, and still be confused by it you know.

I mean I know there are people out there who marry Japanese body pillows... that doesn't mean I'd be able to understand why they would.

Admittedly that's a bit of an unfair analogy but still I think you get what I mean by this.

Yes, it's unfair. You don't commonly see people walking around with a body pillow. You do see plenty of couples on the Citadel. Let's be honest, the asari look almost exactly like human women. And they are just as intelligent. It's really tough to believe that there is no prejudice involved if she can't fathom why a human male may be attracted to something that looks and talks like a human woman.

[V-rex]

Collider wrote...
It's really tough to believe that there is no prejudice involved if she can't fathom why a human male may be attracted to something that looks and talks like a human woman.

Is it really tough to believe she may just be pissed off and resentful that Shepard who seemed interested in her at first to now be chatting up someone else? Especially if said someone was of an entirely different species?

Yes I agree there could be some prejudice in relation to Liara's species, but I think the main reason for aggression was the fact that Liara was putting the moves on someone Ashley had eyes on.

Modifié par V-rex, 26 juin 2011 - 05:07 .

[V-rex]

mrsph wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
yeah shems so closed minded when she leads an StG unit to the aA tower on virmire also closed minded when she says tell me to kiss a turian and ill ask which cheek. totes closed minded there.

She's just following orders. Because she's a soldier.

She volunteered to do it.

[S.A.K]

V-rex wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Grunt has some real reason to hate Turians because of the Genophage. And Tali hates Geth because they killed billions of her people. Mordin never says anything to suggest he hate anyone(If he does please give me a link). But why does Ashly hate aliens?

ASHLEY DOESN'T HATE ALIENS!

'Hate' is an incredibly strong word and it simply DOES NOT APPLY here. Ashley is at best uncomfortable around them because she's never worked with them before and distrustful of them because of bad family history.
Said bad family history is that her grandfather was the first human ever to surrender to an alien race and subsequently her family name has been blacklisted by the Alliance and she's had to live with that stigma her whole life.

That said if you read my huge post on the first page, there are quite a few things that Ashley says and does that contradict the idea that she's some kind of crazy alien hating psycho.

Same goes for other characters mate. Grunt works with garrus with no problem and Tali even works with a geth and even undestands his intensions.

[V-rex]

S.A.K wrote...

Same goes for other characters mate. Grunt works with garrus with no problem and Tali even works with a geth and even undestands his intensions.

I'm not sure I get your point. Not trying to insult you but could you maybe explain what you mean better?
If nothing else, I was NEVER accusing the others of being racist, only pointing out that Ashley was no worse then any of them were.

[PMC65]

V-rex wrote...

You can see something happen, and be aware that it does happen, and still be confused by it you know.

I mean I know there are people out there who marry Japanese body pillows... that doesn't mean I'd be able to understand why they would.

Admittedly that's a bit of an unfair analogy but still I think you get what I mean by this.

LOL!!!!!!! I had to google that, I thought you were joking.

[DoNotIngest]

S.A.K wrote...

Same goes for other characters mate. Grunt works with garrus with no problem and Tali even works with a geth and even undestands his intensions.

You can get a loyal Quarian to give Fleet information to the Geth with relations improved all around, but you can't talk to the human chick about letting up on the slurs against the inoffensive Asari?


Something IS wrong there. Pssst, no favouritism here, I romanced neither Ashley or Liara.

[V-rex]

michaelrsa wrote...

V-rex wrote...
She volunteered to do it.

It could be that she's showing her willingness to do everything asked of her like a good soldier.

It wasn't asked of her though. Plus in the opening of the Virmire scene, we see her talking to Kirrahe and being debriefed.

Or far more likely is that she is hot for Garrus. I mean, can you blame her?

That's possible.

[Collider]

V-rex wrote...

Collider wrote...
It's really tough to believe that there is no prejudice involved if she can't fathom why a human male may be attracted to something that looks and talks like a human woman.

Is it really tough to believe she may just be pissed off and resentful that Shepard who seemed interested in her at first to now be chatting up someone else? Especially if said someone was of an entirely different species?

Yes I agree there could be some prejudice in relation to Liara's species, but I think the main reason for aggression was the fact that Liara was putting the moves on someone Ashley had eyes on.

The words that Ashley say don't come out of thin air. It has to have a basis.
I might consider her just blurting something out that she doesn't mean if she said so. She doesn't apologize, she doesn't take her words back, she just says how is she supposed to be jealous of an asari? and fine, go run out with [b]some[/i] alien.

Not to mention, she is a written character. The writers specifically wrote her to express surprise at the thought of being jealous of another race. And to bring up race randomly during the confrontation, when Liara says nothing even remotely related to it.

[Youknow]

V-rex wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Grunt has some real reason to hate Turians because of the Genophage. And Tali hates Geth because they killed billions of her people. Mordin never says anything to suggest he hate anyone(If he does please give me a link). But why does Ashly hate aliens?

'Hate' is an incredibly strong word and if you ask me it simply doesn't apply here. Ashley is at best uncomfortable around them because she's never worked with them before and distrustful of them because of bad family history.
Said bad family history is that her grandfather was the first human ever to surrender to an alien race and subsequently her family name has been blacklisted by the Alliance and she's had to live with that stigma her whole life.

That said if you read my huge post on the first page, there are quite a few things that Ashley says and does that contradict the idea that she's some kind of crazy alien hating psycho.

And here's some of the problem. Why is it that when the term "racist" comes up, people always seem to think of some deranged person that wants to purge all other races besides themselves? I mean, a man can be say sexist, without wanting all women to be purged from the universe or being some sort of wifebeater or something. 

[S.A.K]

V-rex wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Same goes for other characters mate. Grunt works with garrus with no problem and Tali even works with a geth and even undestands his intensions.

I'm not sure I get your point. Not trying to insult you but could you maybe explain what you mean better?
If nothing else, I was NEVER accusing the others of being racist, only pointing out that Ashley was no worse then any of them were.

I mean that they have their issues but they are still open mided about them. Shepard can convince them to change their views. I am not sure if that can be done for ashly.

[V-rex]

Youknow wrote...

And here's some of the problem. Why is it that when the term "racist" comes up, people always seem to think of some deranged person that wants to purge all other races besides themselves? I mean, a man can be say sexist, without wanting all women to be purged from the universe or being some sort of wifebeater or something. 

Because typically when people call Ashley 'racist' they are yelling like she's some kind of psycho. They certainly spend a lot of time demanding she die for it which is something I find rather disturbing.

For what it's worth I do AGREE that Ashley has questionable views from time to time and I much prefer her when she's been 'paragonized' because I can find her views more agreeable.

Modifié par V-rex, 26 juin 2011 - 05:24 .

[DoNotIngest]

mrsph wrote...

Youknow wrote...

And here's some of the problem. Why is it that when the term "racist" comes up, people always seem to think of some deranged person that wants to purge all other races besides themselves? I mean, a man can be say sexist, without wanting all women to be purged from the universe or being some sort of wifebeater or something. 

This.

Racism comes in many flavors.

So Ashley's only a mild to moderate racist, then?

[V-rex]

S.A.K wrote...

I mean that they have their issues but they are still open mided about them. Shepard can convince them to change their views. I am not sure if that can be done for ashly.

Page 4, I posted a link.

It can be done.

Modifié par V-rex, 26 juin 2011 - 05:16 .

[Collider]

Its not a perfect analogy, but if you replaced "alien" with "colored person," most people would be very uncomfortable with what Ashley says.
The primary divide between the humanoid races in Mass Effect is not sapience, it is just looks. They are all intelligent and capable of higher thought.

[S.A.K]

V-rex wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I mean that they have their issues but they are still open mided about them. Shepard can convince them to change their views. I am not sure if that can be done for ashly.

Page 4, I posted a link.

It can be done.

Cool. So she might be better in ME3. That might explain how she can work for the council by being a specter. She can't work FOR them if she DON'T trust them.

[V-rex]

Collider wrote...

The words that Ashley say don't come out of thin air. It has to have a basis.
I might consider her just blurting something out that she doesn't mean if she said so. She doesn't apologize, she doesn't take her words back, she just says how is she supposed to be jealous of an asari? and fine, go run out with [b]some[/i] alien.

I can assume that it's something randomly blurted out because if you pick her in the conflict afterwards she retracts all her anger towards Liara, admits she was more mad at Shepard and remarks that she even feels sorry for Liara for being rejected.
Simply put, the way she responds after that is retracting all the negative emotion she had towards Liara and is not consistent with her attitude up to that point. She doesn't say:
"Hah, stupid blue b*tch'.
She said:
"No one should have to feel like they aren't good enough to get what they want."

Which in turn, allows me to assume that she blurted out things she didn't mean to say.The reason why we never see her apologize to Liara is probably due in part to the fact that we never see extended squadmate interactions.

Modifié par V-rex, 26 juin 2011 - 05:22 .

[VegasVance]

michaelrsa wrote...

Take her line "I'm no fan of aliens"

Replace "aliens" with "blacks", "jews", "asians" or any other race and it's pretty damn racist.

Replace it with Reapers...and that means Shepard is a hater!
D:

^That is the real reason why Shep got De-Spectered, we'll have more when Behind the N7 returns.  

Edit: Also is "Pureblood" an okay word to call an Asari if you are of a different race?

Modifié par VegasVance, 26 juin 2011 - 05:22 .

[V-rex]

mrsph wrote...

This.

Racism comes in many flavors.

I like strawberry racism.

But seriously yes, I agree with you. There are many forms of racism and if I were to agree with a specific form of racism for Ashley I would classify it as both 'mild' and capable of being fixed. The kind of thing that you just need to have a long enough conversation with someone to try and help them see the error of their ways.
Subsequently, that can happen.

[Lord Jaric]

I'm just going to post this and let people see for themselfs whether Ashley is racist or not.

TeenZombie wrote...

I've been meaning to drop this quote off in this thread for a while, so here is a quote that (hopefully) will put the "Ashley hates aliens" myth to rest. This is Chris L'Etoile, former Bioware writer, who wrote Ashley, and posts around the web as Stormwaltz, on the Penny Arcade forum Mass Effect thread:

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.


2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.


3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?

Anyway. I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.

To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.

Link to post

And there you have the man who wrote the character, telling us what she meant by the bear and dog comment, and her view on aliens. Realism, not racism.

So there!!!

Modifié par Lord Jaric, 26 juin 2011 - 05:25 .

[Youknow]

V-rex wrote...

Youknow wrote...

And here's some of the problem. Why is it that when the term "racist" comes up, people always seem to think of some deranged person that wants to purge all other races besides themselves? I mean, a man can be say sexist, without wanting all women to be purged from the universe or being some sort of wifebeater or something. 

Because typically when people call Ashley 'racist' they are yelling like she's some kind of psycho. They certainly spend a lot of time demanding she die for it which is something I find rather disturbing.

Honestly, I hear more people bringing it up that are defending her. Not the people calling her out on it. And to be quite frank, the fact that Ashley was flawed like this is the reason I like her. She's a realistic character within her faults. Yet, she is a mature enough person to overcome her flaws (even come to have a change of heart), and continue her mission. It shows far more strength of character that she can do this. And gives her a surprising amount of depth... Or at least enough for people to argue about the morality behind such a character. 

Would I like Ashley's flaw if she were a real person? No. Would I forgive her for it? Probably. But as a character in a story? Yes, I love it. Because people aren't perfect. And her flaws aren't things like "my sister is kidnapped" or "my son is missing..." They are normal mundane problems that I can relate to far more than things like Grunt. They don't feel artificial or tacked on just so the writer can say "here's their story arc." It feels like whoever wrote Ashley's character put a lot of thought into her personality. 

And when I see people arguing that Ashley doesn't at least have a hint of racist tendencies, I feel like they are simply cheapening her character.