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[Jugo616]

Merill (and elves in general) knows more about spirits then chantry could ever hope. Organised religion is evil. In game and in real world.

[sphinxess]

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for Merrill, she knows her intellect countless times - her proficiently with ordinary magic and blood magic, never becoming an abomination, being able to tell whether Keran is possessed, being able to distinquish what type of demon resides in the Profane Abomination, and understanding that all spirits are dangerous. And I don't see what's evil about a character who wants to improve the lives of the elves across Thedas, since the People have been without a kingdom for centuries.

Merrill is one companion you can hate to love or love to hate or something.

There would be nothing wrong with her wanting to help her clan but the way she goes on about it is all "The Dalish will die next week if the past is not recovered now! Oh noes!

Really that's how it comes across to me.

If she really was all that intelligent about spirits/demons etc, she would never have started fooling with one nor make a deal with the other one in the quest *night terrors*. If she had been the one stuck in the nightmare she would have come out tranquil. She betrayed Hawke because of the "fate of her people" see again there it is all dalish will die without the past...need magic mirror. bah

The old Merrill seemed much more mature and self-assured. I don't think that Merrill would have been so foolish.

The new Merrill can be very cute and adorable but also very foolish and unless you rival her she continues thinking she is right and the whole world including her clan and keeper are wrong. Just makes me go...

Her keeper does prove to be a total idiot. Actually I think she had a nervous breakdown when she lost 2 hunters to the mirror - remember she says its impossible to clean the taint from the shard

Its just like the argument people often use that Fenris and Anders think shes being stupid and thsir opinion should carry twice as much weight since there are two of them- <tweedledum and tweedledee seriously>?

[FieryDove]

sphinxess wrote...

Her keeper does prove to be a total idiot. Actually I think she had a nervous breakdown when she lost 2 hunters to the mirror - remember she says its impossible to clean the taint from the shard

I played the dalish origin in DAO so I know what the mirror was used for and what happened to it. Nothing normal could remove the darkspawn taint. Blood magic was not an option, so was not considered. BM is evil no matter what Merrill says.


(Imho so i don't get yelled at)

[Jugo616]

BM is evil no matter what Merrill says.

Tell that to my warden.

[Lilunebrium]

CitizenThom wrote...
I agree there was a bit of a change in Anders. 

A bit? He went from condemning mages who wanted to be freed from Templar control, to blowing up Kirkwall's Chantry and unleashing a brutal magi revolution.

If that's not a complete overhaul, I honestly don't know what is.

[dragonflight288]

Did you listen to Justice and Ander's party banter in Awakening? Justice was getting through to Anders by the end.

[Lilunebrium]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you listen to Justice and Ander's party banter in Awakening? Justice was getting through to Anders by the end.

Quoted from dragonage.wikia.com;

Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.
---
Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

Matter of point of view, I'm sure, but that doesn't sound like Justice getting through to anything.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the completely-changed-character that's bugging me (...well, not mainly, anyway), it's the way BioWare chose to present it. Anders went from a mostly-carefree, humorous, making-light-of-situations character, to a tormented, driven, and not to mention possessed fugitive. Pretty much overnight, considering we aren't given any explanation for it (and that's including the related short story).

Combine that with the sudden change in voice actor, and the amount of raised eyebrows is more than understandable. (I actually am impressed by Adam Howden's acting, I just have difficulty to understand why Greg Ellis was unable to continue his work.)

They could have shown the process, they could have simply created an entirely new character to play Anders' part in Dragon Age II, but they decided against it. This is actually one of the very few restricted-development-time-related issues I can't close my eyes to. 

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:43 .

[Lilunebrium]

Huh. Off-topic much, Lil'?

So right. I discovered the Lie-option with my Rogue quite a while ago, but only recently discovered Merrill's reaction to it. I actually reloaded a save and played through the quest again just to roll my eyes in amusement and trying very hard to resist the urge to squeeze her cheeks.

Merrill and Varric have once again confirmed my adoration for Mary Kirby's writing skills.

[Foolsfolly]

Anders went from a mostly-carefree, humorous, making-light-of-situations character, to a tormented, driven, and not to mention possessed fugitive. Pretty much overnight, considering we aren't given any explanation for it (and that's including the related short story).

They really should have shown Justice possess Anders. That way we at least had a moment with the real Anders before he turned into the terrorist we see him as.

[DreamerM]

Lilunebrium wrote...

Don't get me wrong, it's not the completely-changed-character that's bugging me (...well, not mainly, anyway), it's the way BioWare chose to present it. Anders went from a mostly-carefree, humorous, making-light-of-situations character, to a tormented, driven, and not to mention possessed fugitive. Pretty much overnight, considering we aren't given any explanation for it (and that's including the related short story).

Combine that with the sudden change in voice actor, and the amount of raised eyebrows is more than understandable. (I actually am impressed by Adam Howden's acting, I just have difficulty to understand why Greg Ellis was unable to continue his work.)

They could have shown the process, they could have simply created an entirely new character to play Anders' part in Dragon Age II, but they decided against it. This is actually one of the very few restricted-development-time-related issues I can't close my eyes to.

Actually I think Anders's eventual possession by Justice and role in starting the mage/templar war was probably one of the few things they knew about their plans for both characters when creating them for Awakening and beyond. But what wouldn't surprise me is if, due to DA:2's super-rushed production time, the three (I'll call them Anders, Justice, and Janders) were actually being written at the same time, by different writers who were not comparing notes on their personalities and attitudes.

Gaider, who wrote Anders for Awakening, created his character the way he imagined him: a fun-loving mage who always had an undercurrent of rage about the injustices he's suffered but still somehow seems mentally stable and more-then-equipt to handle the cruelty of the world. Heck, Anders himself will even tell Justice that his unrelenting drive means he doesn't understand reality. He even manages to be kind and compassionate, putting himself (and even his freedom) on the line to save others. Altogether, I think he's one of the most appealing, and most balanced, characters Bioware's ever created.

Jennifer Hapler had a different vision for him. She knew he was possessed by a spirit of Justice, and that he could not rest, he could not eat, he could barely think about anything except his cause. She used real-life mental illnesses to inform her portrayal of his psychological breakdown, and used words like "Tranquil Solution" (read "Final Solution"), had him writing out a "manifesto" a la Karl Marx, threw in a Weather Mage Underground to forshadow his final William Ayres/Timothy McVeigh moment when he decides that the Cause is greater then the lives of everything and he will kill EVERYONE if it will just make the injustice STOP.

Personally, I thought Halpler's use of SYMBOLISM!@#@!!!11 was a bit heavy-handed, but considering the stakes involved, it still could have worked. Problem was, many gamers were straining for glimpses of the Anders from Origins, the guy who could shrug off anything with a quip, regardless of circumstances. And that just wasn't going to be there, because it couldn't be. They didn't have enough time to make that happen.

I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)...but again I wonder if the reason Greg Ellis couldn't do it was that the two games were being made at the same time. It doesn't take that long to voice a character, even a central character with a lot of lines like Anders, not when compared to how long it takes to shoot an on-camera role.



As for Merril, I really liked the way she was portrayed: a bubbly, joyful, but misguided child who, like millions before her, thinks that she's special, that the rules apply to everyone but her and she's accquired the secret to dealing with demons safely.

I thought it was a failure of the rivalry/Friendship system that you couldn't be nice and kind and friendly to Merril AND tell her "Blood Magic Evil Mirror BAD IDEA." Kind of like how I was annoyed that I couldn't point out to Anders that "Possessions END BADLY" AND still support Mage Rights in their struggle for freedom. Or how Fenris will always regard me as BAD if I support mages, even though I'll enthusastically gut every slaver I see. If that system's going to come back, I'd like to see it retooled and refined.

Modifié par DreamerM, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[sphinxess]

DreamerM wrote...

Lilunebrium wrote...

Don't get me wrong, it's not the completely-changed-character that's bugging me (...well, not mainly, anyway), it's the way BioWare chose to present it. Anders went from a mostly-carefree, humorous, making-light-of-situations character, to a tormented, driven, and not to mention possessed fugitive. Pretty much overnight, considering we aren't given any explanation for it (and that's including the related short story).

Combine that with the sudden change in voice actor, and the amount of raised eyebrows is more than understandable. (I actually am impressed by Adam Howden's acting, I just have difficulty to understand why Greg Ellis was unable to continue his work.)

They could have shown the process, they could have simply created an entirely new character to play Anders' part in Dragon Age II, but they decided against it. This is actually one of the very few restricted-development-time-related issues I can't close my eyes to.

Actually I think Anders's eventual possession by Justice and role in starting the mage/templar war was probably one of the few things they knew about their plans for both characters when creating them for Awakening and beyond. But what wouldn't surprise me is if, due to DA:2's super-rushed production time, the three (I'll call them Anders, Justice, and Janders) were actually being written at the same time, by different writers who were not comparing notes on their personalities and attitudes.

Gaider, who wrote Anders for Awakening, created his character the way he imagined him: a fun-loving mage who always had an undercurrent of rage about the injustices he's suffered but still somehow seems mentally stable and more-then-equipt to handle the cruelty of the world. Heck, Anders himself will even tell Justice that his unrelenting drive means he doesn't understand reality. He even manages to be kind and compassionate, putting himself (and even his freedom) on the line to save others. Altogether, I think he's one of the most appealing, and most balanced, characters Bioware's ever created.

Jennifer Hapler had a different vision for him. She knew he was possessed by a spirit of Justice, and that he could not rest, he could not eat, he could barely think about anything except his cause. She used real-life mental illnesses to inform her portrayal of his psychological breakdown, and used words like "Tranquil Solution" (read "Final Solution"), had him writing out a "manifesto" a la Karl Marx, threw in a Weather Mage Underground to forshadow his final William Ayres/Timothy McVeigh moment when he decides that the Cause is greater then the lives of everything and he will kill EVERYONE if it will just make the injustice STOP.

Personally, I thought Halpler's use of SYMBOLISM!@#@!!!11 was a bit heavy-handed, but considering the stakes involved, it still could have worked. Problem was, many gamers were straining for glimpses of the Anders from Origins, the guy who could shrug off anything with a quip, regardless of circumstances. And that just wasn't going to be there, because it couldn't be. They didn't have enough time to make that happen.

I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)...but again I wonder if the reason Greg Ellis couldn't do it was that the two games were being made at the same time. It doesn't take that long to voice a character, even a central character with a lot of lines like Anders, not when compared to how long it takes to shoot an on-camera role.



As for Merril, I really liked the way she was portrayed: a bubbly, joyful, but misguided child who, like millions before her, thinks that she's special, that the rules apply to everyone but her and she's accquired the secret to dealing with demons safely.

I thought it was a failure of the rivalry/Friendship system that you couldn't be nice and kind and friendly to Merril AND tell her "Blood Magic Evil Mirror BAD IDEA." Kind of like how I was annoyed that I couldn't point out to Anders that "Possessions END BADLY" AND still support Mage Rights in their struggle for freedom. Or how Fenris will always regard me as BAD if I support mages, even though I'll enthusastically gut every slaver I see. If that system's going to come back, I'd like to see it retooled and refined.

Yet the Tevinter Magisters seem to be successful in dealing with demons in a evilly blood magic way without exploding into abomimations - look at Danarius he controls multiple demons. So what rules are you using that apply to everyone that uses blood magic?

[Foolsfolly]

Yes, let us applaud the slaving monsters of the Tevinter Imperium as the ideal blood mage.

Never mind the fact that we've never met a Tevinter yet who's capable of not sacrificing his own mother for a +2 Willpower amulet.

[Foolsfolly]

As for Merril, I really liked the way she was portrayed: a bubbly, joyful, but misguided child who, like millions before her, thinks that she's special, that the rules apply to everyone but her and she's accquired the secret to dealing with demons safely.

That is really why I love Merrill so much. She's like the embodiment of 'The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Sure she's willing to sacrifice herself for her people, which is admirable...but many terrible things have been done in the name of 'for my people.'

[DreamerM]

sphinxess wrote...

Yet the Tevinter Magisters seem to be successful in dealing with demons in a evilly blood magic way without exploding into abomimations - look at Danarius he controls multiple demons. So what rules are you using that apply to everyone that uses blood magic?

Is Denarius controlling those demons, or are they controlling him? Not that it'd make that much of a difference, since he seems as nasty as any given demon without the help, but we see what associating with Demons does to Evelina and Fenriel as well: they don't explode, they just become super-dooper MEAN....BEFORE they explode into Abominations.

It looks to me like every blood mage has a choice, eventually, to either stop using blood magic or accept that the demon will take over someday. Denarius might be in control now, but just wait....

Also---

Foolsfolly wrote...

Yes, let us applaud the slaving monsters of the Tevinter Imperium as the ideal blood mage.

Never
mind the fact that we've never met a Tevinter yet who's capable of not
sacrificing his own mother for a +2 Willpower amulet.

Yeah, I wouldn't use the Tevinter as an example of "how to be a mage." They seem very capable, but they reward ruthlessness as well as magical strength, and the mages who get ahead are the ones who would use anything, no matter how horrible, to get a leg-up on the competition.

[sphinxess]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Yes, let us applaud the slaving monsters of the Tevinter Imperium as the ideal blood mage.

Never mind the fact that we've never met a Tevinter yet who's capable of not sacrificing his own mother for a +2 Willpower amulet.

Thats not my point - the argument is Blood Magic > Possession always happens
There are a lot of old Magisters running around that are blood mages

[Foolsfolly]

Thats not my point - the argument is Blood Magic > Possession always happens
There are a lot of old Magisters running around that are blood mages

And that's something we can't prove is it? Uldred and Connor were human looking until they turned. As was Orsino. Even Kitty was a nice little kitty cat.

If properly threatened the guise falls off and they hulk out. How many Magisters have we met? Danarius, his apprentice, and that guy with elven slaves in Denerim.

I'm supposed to believe that because three mages aren't abominations that an entire nation has no abominations?

[LobselVith8]

FieryDove wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Her keeper does prove to be a total idiot. Actually I think she had a nervous breakdown when she lost 2 hunters to the mirror - remember she says its impossible to clean the taint from the shard

I played the dalish origin in DAO so I know what the mirror was used for and what happened to it. Nothing normal could remove the darkspawn taint. Blood magic was not an option, so was not considered. BM is evil no matter what Merrill says.


(Imho so i don't get yelled at)

If Merrill couldn't remove the corruption from the shard, she would have been infected like the corrupted elves The Warden encounters in the Elven Ruins, who were infected with the darkspawn taint because of the shards of the Eluvian. Evidently, Merrill did since she isn't a ghoul, despite seven years of working with the shard.

As for blood magic, do you consider The Joining evil? What about the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to fight the darkspawn?

[FieryDove]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Merrill couldn't remove the corruption from the shard, she would have been infected like the corrupted elves The Warden encounters in the Elven Ruins, who were infected with the darkspawn taint because of the shards of the Eluvian. Evidently, Merrill did since she isn't a ghoul, despite seven years of working with the shard.

As for blood magic, do you consider The Joining evil? What about the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to fight the darkspawn?

Yes Merrill says how she cleansed the shard, BM.

I think the joining is a whole nother can of worms...so I won't go there ot.

I don't approve of BM at all, if some wardens use it just to fight DS...I dunno if all DS dropped dead one day would they give it up? Not likely I'm guessing so yeah my characters wouldn't go along with it.

[sphinxess]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Thats not my point - the argument is Blood Magic > Possession always happens
There are a lot of old Magisters running around that are blood mages

And that's something we can't prove is it? Uldred and Connor were human looking until they turned. As was Orsino. Even Kitty was a nice little kitty cat.

If properly threatened the guise falls off and they hulk out. How many Magisters have we met? Danarius, his apprentice, and that guy with elven slaves in Denerim.

I'm supposed to believe that because three mages aren't abominations that an entire nation has no abominations?

Seeing as Merrill and Anders can both detect a abomination in disguise I would say yes the Tevinters can also.
Conner wasn't ever a abomination <well kinda Desire Demons seem really weird at holding to contracts - he was a abomination but she didn't intend on keeping his body past the contract limits of course she wasn't about to let the contract expire>- he made a deal to keep his father alive - Uldred lost control while fighting the Templars in the tower and the mages that went against him.

Modifié par sphinxess, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:49 .

[DreamerM]

sphinxess wrote...

Seeing as Merrill and Anders can both detect a abomination in disguise I would say yes the Tevinters can also.

See the Abomination thread for a detailed rundown of why those "tests" make no sense at all.

[LobselVith8]

FieryDove wrote...

Skyplant wrote...

If she is back that's definitely what will happen though, she's too flirty with demons to not be possessed and destroy thedas.

I think pride demon, she doesn't rage well enough for a rage demon.

Seven years went by where Merrill didn't become an abomination. I don't see why that would change, especially since she remained in control in the proverbial Hellmouth of Thedas.

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for Merrill, she knows her intellect countless times - her proficiently with ordinary magic and blood magic, never becoming an abomination, being able to tell whether Keran is possessed, being able to distinquish what type of demon resides in the Profane Abomination, and understanding that all spirits are dangerous. And I don't see what's evil about a character who wants to improve the lives of the elves across Thedas, since the People have been without a kingdom for centuries.

Merrill is one companion you can hate to love or love to hate or something.

There would be nothing wrong with her wanting to help her clan but the way she goes on about it is all "The Dalish will die next week if the past is not recovered now! Oh noes!

Merrill wants to end the centuries old plight of the People. If she isn't proactive about this now, it'll never happen.

FieryDove wrote...

Really that's how it comes across to me.

If she really was all that intelligent about spirits/demons etc, she would never have started fooling with one nor make a deal with the other one in the quest *night terrors*. If she had been the one stuck in the nightmare she would have come out tranquil. She betrayed Hawke because of the "fate of her people" see again there it is all dalish will die without the past...need magic mirror. bah

Night Terrors railroads all the characters (except Anders) into attempted murder.

FieryDove wrote...

The old Merrill seemed much more mature and self-assured. I don't think that Merrill would have been so foolish.

The new Merrill can be very cute and adorable but also very foolish and unless you rival her she continues thinking she is right and the whole world including her clan and keeper are wrong. Just makes me go... 

By "the whole world," you mean the Keeper. One person. The clan agrees with the Keeper's opinion. Hawke can agree with either Marethari or Merrill from a place of ignorance about elven culture and technology. Merrill is proactive about wanting to help the People, while Hawke is reactive about pretty much everything in all three Acts.

[sphinxess]

Usually the twins are included as "the whole world" <Fenris and Anders> convincing argument seeing one hates mages and the other is a abonimation.

[Lilunebrium]

DreamerM wrote...
Gaider, who wrote Anders for Awakening, created his character the way he imagined him: a fun-loving mage who always had an undercurrent of rage about the injustices he's suffered but still somehow seems mentally stable and more-then-equipt to handle the cruelty of the world. Heck, Anders himself will even tell Justice that his unrelenting drive means he doesn't understand reality. He even manages to be kind and compassionate, putting himself (and even his freedom) on the line to save others. Altogether, I think he's one of the most appealing, and most balanced, characters Bioware's ever created.

Jennifer Hapler had a different vision for him. She knew he was possessed by a spirit of Justice, and that he could not rest, he could not eat, he could barely think about anything except his cause. She used real-life mental illnesses to inform her portrayal of his psychological breakdown, and used words like "Tranquil Solution" (read "Final Solution"), had him writing out a "manifesto" a la Karl Marx, threw in a Weather Mage Underground to forshadow his final William Ayres/Timothy McVeigh moment when he decides that the Cause is greater then the lives of everything and he will kill EVERYONE if it will just make the injustice STOP.

Personally, I thought Halpler's use of SYMBOLISM!@#@!!!11 was a bit heavy-handed, but considering the stakes involved, it still could have worked. Problem was, many gamers were straining for glimpses of the Anders from Origins, the guy who could shrug off anything with a quip, regardless of circumstances. And that just wasn't going to be there, because it couldn't be. They didn't have enough time to make that happen.

I can actually have peace with that, should it prove to be what happened. 

I was also impressed by Adam Howden's acting. The guy delivered easily the most emotional performance in the game (even his gasps for breath were full of ANGST)...but again I wonder if the reason Greg Ellis couldn't do it was that the two games were being made at the same time. It doesn't take that long to voice a character, even a central character with a lot of lines like Anders, not when compared to how long it takes to shoot an on-camera role.

I think I saw a BioWare employee, I think David Gaider, mention somewhere in the pre-launch Anders thread, that Ellis had actually already recorded quite a few lines for Anders, before something occured making people decide to change voice actors. I'd like to think this is due to some obscure reasoning involving Cullen (the character he continued to voice) gaining a big role in future installments, but there's where my inner "...Seriously?"-person breaks off her leash and quite effectively kicks me back to skepticism.

Foolsfolly wrote...
Never mind the fact that we've never met a Tevinter yet who's capable of not sacrificing his own mother for a +2 Willpower amulet.

Quoted for cause of snorts.

[DreamerM]

Lilunebrium wrote...
I think I saw a BioWare employee, I think David Gaider, mention somewhere in the pre-launch Anders thread, that Ellis had actually already recorded quite a few lines for Anders, before something occured making people decide to change voice actors. I'd like to think this is due to some obscure reasoning involving Cullen (the character he continued to voice) gaining a big role in future installments, but there's where my inner "...Seriously?"-person breaks off her leash and quite effectively kicks me back to skepticism.

I have a hard time with the "they re-cast Anders because Cullen will be important later" theory too. Cullen's part in DA2 wasn't THAT big. He was portrayed as the one Templar that the Champion will call "friend" (I guess fighting Templarbinations together qualifies as a bonding experience) and he does eventually turn on Meredith and restore some sanity to the Templar order, but he spends most of the game standing in the Gallows courtyard and doing nothing.

Maybe if they ever planned to make Cullen's part much much bigger, like making him into a Companion, I can understand that either Cullen or Anders needed to be re-cast. Greg Ellis is a good actor, but I wouldn't ask him to play a scene opposite himself. But...is there any evidence that they were ever planning on making Cullen a Companion? And why wouldn't they give Greg Ellis his part back once it became clear that Anders was the important character?

I doubt we'll ever know.

[Foolsfolly]

I have absolutely nothing to back this up but I remember some talk around these boards that Ellis couldn't do the Anders gig because of it conflicting with the fourth Pirate's movie's filming.

Again, no proof here but I remember someone saying that around release time.