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[LobselVith8]

DreamerM wrote...

I have a hard time with the "they re-cast Anders because Cullen will be important later" theory too. Cullen's part in DA2 wasn't THAT big. He was portrayed as the one Templar that the Champion will call "friend" (I guess fighting Templarbinations together qualifies as a bonding experience) and he does eventually turn on Meredith and restore some sanity to the Templar order, but he spends most of the game standing in the Gallows courtyard and doing nothing.

Maybe if they ever planned to make Cullen's part much much bigger, like making him into a Companion, I can understand that either Cullen or Anders needed to be re-cast. Greg Ellis is a good actor, but I wouldn't ask him to play a scene opposite himself. But...is there any evidence that they were ever planning on making Cullen a Companion? And why wouldn't they give Greg Ellis his part back once it became clear that Anders was the important character?

I doubt we'll ever know.

Speaking of Cullen, I think having him aid a pro-mage Hawke may have made some sense if Cullen's role in Act III had been expanded, or if they established some sort of friendship between the Knight-Captain and the Champion despite having different views. We never really see how Cullen reacts to discovering that Hawke is a mage, or see them working together towards a common goal that could bridge their personal differences. As it is, I don't see any reason why he should oppose Meredith if Hawke is killing templars - she's within her rights to want the Champion dead. And they should have exorcised that scene where Hawke tells Cullen about Anders if nothing comes of it.

[FieryDove]

LobselVith8 wrote...

By "the whole world," you mean the Keeper. One person. The clan agrees with the Keeper's opinion. Hawke can agree with either Marethari or Merrill from a place of ignorance about elven culture and technology. Merrill is proactive about wanting to help the People, while Hawke is reactive about pretty much everything in all three Acts.

I mean anybody....with sense. Keeper, clan, most of your companions comment on it or her being...stupid as Aveline puts it  and even Flemeth for pete sake.

Merrill is a great character no doubt. We should just agree to disagree because we won't be changing anyone's mind on the topic.

[LobselVith8]

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

By "the whole world," you mean the Keeper. One person. The clan agrees with the Keeper's opinion. Hawke can agree with either Marethari or Merrill from a place of ignorance about elven culture and technology. Merrill is proactive about wanting to help the People, while Hawke is reactive about pretty much everything in all three Acts.

I mean anybody....with sense. Keeper, clan, most of your companions comment on it or her being...stupid as Aveline puts it  and even Flemeth for pete sake.

Merrill is a great character no doubt. We should just agree to disagree because we won't be changing anyone's mind on the topic.

Aveline expects Merrill to move on from her history, which is easy for her to say because the humans didn't lose their history to slavery and subjugation. What is she supposed to do - tell the People to live in poverty like her city brethern? Continue to be nomads for a few more centuries and be unwelcome in human lands? Fenris hates mages, and Anders disagrees with blood magic - I don't expect either of them to understand where Merrill is coming from as a Dalish mage. You seem to think "anybody... with sense" is anyone who agrees with your opinion on the issue. If Merrill's risk held the slightest chance to change the People's fortunes for the better, I see no reason to forgo that to do absolutely nothing at all.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Aveline expects Merrill to move on from her history, which is easy for her to say because the humans didn't lose their history to slavery and subjugation. What is she supposed to do - tell the People to live in poverty like her city brethern? Continue to be nomads for a few more centuries and be unwelcome in human lands?

Or, crazy thought, try to utilize their resources to establish themselves in human lands.  As it stands the Dalish only trade with humans for things they need; they aren't looking to make a profit.  If the Dalish were to start approaching human cities as traveling peddlers, selling Dalish crafts to people, they'd not only be acquiring resources to better their lot, but they'd be a lot more welcome around human towns and cities.  The hostility works both ways, human cities aren't welcoming to the Dalish and the Dalish aren't welcoming to humans.  If a human get's too close to the camp they are driven off or killed and the clan moves on.  Changing how they interact with the human world would change how the humans treat them.  All of this could still be done while living as they do now, traveling in isolated communities, until they have the resources and goodwill to establish more permanent (though still somewhat isolated) communities.  This would provide a more stable base that would allow them to better recover pieces of their history (they can actually access information held by human scholars for example).

Also you talk like the Dalish are just trying to find their history, and maybe they are, but Merrill is trying to recreate it.  She wants to return the People to the glory days of Arlathan; glory days that ended the day they realized merely associating with other people could kill them.  That's why Aveline says she's stupid, because she's trying to recreate a past that can't be sustained (if it can be attained at all) rather than focusing on bettering their lot here and now.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Fenris hates mages, and Anders disagrees with blood magic - I don't expect either of them to understand where Merrill is coming from as a Dalish mage.

Yes Fenris and Anders have their biases but what about Varric, Aveline, and I think even Isabela try and get Merrill to give up the Eluvian because they're worried about her.  They might not understand where Merrill is coming from but my lack of understanding of Twilight doesn't effect my ability to discern if a friend's obsession with it is harming them.  It's the same way a non-mage Hawke doesn't understand where Anders is coming from but can still see what his obsession with Mage freedom is doing to him (by Act 3 he's accusing his friends of betraying him).

[Uzzy]

I felt that Merrill was far too designed to push every single 'Cute' button in the players, so I took rather too much delight being mean to her.. which resulted in even more 'cute' dialogue. I left her at home all the time.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aveline expects Merrill to move on from her history, which is easy for her to say because the humans didn't lose their history to slavery and subjugation. What is she supposed to do - tell the People to live in poverty like her city brethern? Continue to be nomads for a few more centuries and be unwelcome in human lands?

Or, crazy thought, try to utilize their resources to establish themselves in human lands.  

Considering the racism exhibited by humans against elves in general and how the Dalish are in danger from the templars or the Chantry, which Hawke witnesses when he discovers the templars tortured a child in Act II or the Chantry threatened them with violence to convert in Act III, it's not as simple as you think.

DPSSOC wrote...

As it stands the Dalish only trade with humans for things they need; they aren't looking to make a profit.  If the Dalish were to start approaching human cities as traveling peddlers, selling Dalish crafts to people, they'd not only be acquiring resources to better their lot, but they'd be a lot more welcome around human towns and cities.  The hostility works both ways, human cities aren't welcoming to the Dalish and the Dalish aren't welcoming to humans.  If a human get's too close to the camp they are driven off or killed and the clan moves on.  Changing how they interact with the human world would change how the humans treat them.  All of this could still be done while living as they do now, traveling in isolated communities, until they have the resources and goodwill to establish more permanent (though still somewhat isolated) communities.  This would provide a more stable base that would allow them to better recover pieces of their history (they can actually access information held by human scholars for example).

It wouldn't change how the humans treat them - even the Dalish clans helping end the Fifth Blight only lasts for a little while in Ferelden. It's even implied the Dalish boon leads to the slaughter of the Dalish in the Hinterlands despite the Hero of Ferelden being a Dalish elf.

DPSSOC wrote...

Also you talk like the Dalish are just trying to find their history, and maybe they are, but Merrill is trying to recreate it.  She wants to return the People to the glory days of Arlathan; glory days that ended the day they realized merely associating with other people could kill them.  That's why Aveline says she's stupid, because she's trying to recreate a past that can't be sustained (if it can be attained at all) rather than focusing on bettering their lot here and now.

The entire premise of the Dalish is the recovery of their past. That's the very essence of what the Dalish are, and why they repeatedly say they'll recover their past and teach their city brethern what they've lost when they gain a new homeland. And Aveline says Merrill is stupid in complete ignorance of Dalish culture and what they've lost.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fenris hates mages, and Anders disagrees with blood magic - I don't expect either of them to understand where Merrill is coming from as a Dalish mage.

Yes Fenris and Anders have their biases but what about Varric, Aveline, and I think even Isabela try and get Merrill to give up the Eluvian because they're worried about her.  They might not understand where Merrill is coming from but my lack of understanding of Twilight doesn't effect my ability to discern if a friend's obsession with it is harming them.  It's the same way a non-mage Hawke doesn't understand where Anders is coming from but can still see what his obsession with Mage freedom is doing to him (by Act 3 he's accusing his friends of betraying him).

Varric agrees with the templars - which is clear is Hawke sided with the templars. Isabela actually invites Hawke and Merrill - with the Eluvian - onto her new ship. Isabela even counters Varric's comment about blood magic being evil by saying the only "evil" thing Merrill does is pick flowers in Hightown.

And I don't think Anders wanting to end the milennia old plight and subjugation of his people is obsession, but this is off-topic.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It wouldn't change how the humans treat them - even the Dalish clans helping end the Fifth Blight only lasts for a little while in Ferelden. It's even implied the Dalish boon leads to the slaughter of the Dalish in the Hinterlands despite the Hero of Ferelden being a Dalish elf.

Because the Dalish help was short lived and then they went back to being, well Dalish.  What I suggest is long-term, mutually beneficial interaction.  What happened in Origins was because the interaction ceased to be mutually beneficial, or beneficial period.  Look at it like this; I'm your neighbour and while I'm a bit of an ass I protect your property from people trying to break in/vandalize it.  Now let's say people stop trying or I stop protecting your property, the fact I'm a bit of an ass is going to grate a lot more and lead to tension.  The Dalish helped against the Blight and that was the end of their goodwill, they became the surly neighbour.  This is the same thing that happened with the Dales; rather than extend an olive branch they just shut themselves off and paid for it.  Goodwill is a powerful weapon, and the Dalish (elves in general really) have no idea how to wield it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Varric agrees with the templars - which is clear is Hawke sided with the templars. Isabela actually invites Hawke and Merrill - with the Eluvian - onto her new ship. Isabela even counters Varric's comment about blood magic being evil by saying the only "evil" thing Merrill does is pick flowers in Hightown.

I was thinking more the first time you talk to Merrill in Act 3 (I think that's when this happens), Varric is trying to coax her out of the house because she's been spending all her time with the mirror.  He's not saying it's evil or wrong to try and fix it but he recognizes what she's doing isn't healthy and he's worried about her.

LobselVith8 wrote...
And I don't think Anders wanting to end the milennia old plight and subjugation of his people is obsession, but this is off-topic.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be obsessed about, but it is an obsession.  It's the governing factor for his entire life and occupies almost all of his attention.  In Act 3 it's so bad that he's accusing Aveline of selling him out to the Templars and says he'll blame her if they find him; completely ignoring how much he advertises his presence.  Like I said it's not a bad thing to be obsessed about, but I call 'em as I see 'em.

[FieryDove]

LobselVith8 wrote...

 You seem to think "anybody... with sense" is anyone who agrees with your opinion on the issue.

I was talking about the people in the game. Which is why I listed them. Just nevermind.

[sphinxess]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It wouldn't change how the humans treat them - even the Dalish clans helping end the Fifth Blight only lasts for a little while in Ferelden. It's even implied the Dalish boon leads to the slaughter of the Dalish in the Hinterlands despite the Hero of Ferelden being a Dalish elf.

Because the Dalish help was short lived and then they went back to being, well Dalish.  What I suggest is long-term, mutually beneficial interaction.  What happened in Origins was because the interaction ceased to be mutually beneficial, or beneficial period.  Look at it like this; I'm your neighbour and while I'm a bit of an ass I protect your property from people trying to break in/vandalize it.  Now let's say people stop trying or I stop protecting your property, the fact I'm a bit of an ass is going to grate a lot more and lead to tension.  The Dalish helped against the Blight and that was the end of their goodwill, they became the surly neighbour.  This is the same thing that happened with the Dales; rather than extend an olive branch they just shut themselves off and paid for it.  Goodwill is a powerful weapon, and the Dalish (elves in general really) have no idea how to wield it.

The Dalish were given a homeland by Andraste after her forces <aided by huge numbers of elven slaves> defeated the Magisters. After Andrastes death the chantry forms, they toss out all information that the Elves ever helped. The Chantry will not allow heathens <chant of light in all corners of the world to bring back the maker> let alone keepers in Elven clans.

So what are you asking the Dalish to do to get along? Make friends with the humans on the borders of the city, wonderful right up to the time when the chantry notices and sends Templars against them? There are entrys that say what happens to a city elf that trys to move out of the alienage into a home among the humans - it gets ugly. You think a Dalish Elf will do any better?

Modifié par sphinxess, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:38 .

[LobselVith8]

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

 You seem to think "anybody... with sense" is anyone who agrees with your opinion on the issue.

I was talking about the people in the game. Which is why I listed them. Just nevermind.

You were talking about the characters in the game who agreed with your opinion on the issue. I don't pretend that Merrill would have succeeded (because we don't know whether she would have succeeded or failed), but her risk was no different than the risks taken by The Warden and by Hawke - why should the protagonist be allowed to risk his life for others, but not Merrill? Why should Merrill be denied the right that The Warden and Hawke can take? The Keeper, the clan, and the companions aren't informed about the Eluvian that Merrill specifically has studied - the very people you mentioned earlier - so why should their opinion matter more than the person who actually did the research?

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It wouldn't change how the humans treat them - even the Dalish clans helping end the Fifth Blight only lasts for a little while in Ferelden. It's even implied the Dalish boon leads to the slaughter of the Dalish in the Hinterlands despite the Hero of Ferelden being a Dalish elf.

Because the Dalish help was short lived and then they went back to being, well Dalish.  

You mean the Dalish went back to living their lives and not sticking their necks out for humanity?

DPSSOC wrote...

What I suggest is long-term, mutually beneficial interaction.  What happened in Origins was because the interaction ceased to be mutually beneficial, or beneficial period.  Look at it like this; I'm your neighbour and while I'm a bit of an ass I protect your property from people trying to break in/vandalize it.  Now let's say people stop trying or I stop protecting your property, the fact I'm a bit of an ass is going to grate a lot more and lead to tension.  The Dalish helped against the Blight and that was the end of their goodwill, they became the surly neighbour.  This is the same thing that happened with the Dales; rather than extend an olive branch they just shut themselves off and paid for it.  Goodwill is a powerful weapon, and the Dalish (elves in general really) have no idea how to wield it.

The Dalish also aren't Andrastians and get threatened by the templars and the Chantry because of it, which means a mutually beneficial relationship isn't going to happen with templars trying to capture their mages and members of the Chantry trying to force them to convert. Both of these events happen for the Dalish in Sundermount. Even if there was a financial gain for some, it wouldn't change the actions of the templars or the members of the Chantry.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Varric agrees with the templars - which is clear is Hawke sided with the templars. Isabela actually invites Hawke and Merrill - with the Eluvian - onto her new ship. Isabela even counters Varric's comment about blood magic being evil by saying the only "evil" thing Merrill does is pick flowers in Hightown.

I was thinking more the first time you talk to Merrill in Act 3 (I think that's when this happens), Varric is trying to coax her out of the house because she's been spending all her time with the mirror.  He's not saying it's evil or wrong to try and fix it but he recognizes what she's doing isn't healthy and he's worried about her.

Varric also sees Merrill's blood magic as evil, which Isabela disagrees with, and views free mages in general as wrong, which is made clear in the pro-mage and pro-templar endings when Hawke speaks to him. Merrill is working on the Eluvian, which Varric doesn't understand and isn't informed about. Given his views on mages and magic, I'm not certain how he can attest to it being "unhealthy" when he lacks the knowledge to make an informed opinion on the issue.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And I don't think Anders wanting to end the milennia old plight and subjugation of his people is obsession, but this is off-topic.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be obsessed about, but it is an obsession.  It's the governing factor for his entire life and occupies almost all of his attention.  In Act 3 it's so bad that he's accusing Aveline of selling him out to the Templars and says he'll blame her if they find him; completely ignoring how much he advertises his presence.  Like I said it's not a bad thing to be obsessed about, but I call 'em as I see 'em.

Killing the first love of your love tends to change your priorities, especially when it's because of the templars that the person's humanity and free will was stripped from them. Regarding Anders and Aveline, Anders addresses that if the templars come to his clinic, he'll know who told him - it's part of a conversation that Hawke is walking in on. Aveline has captured mages, which is made clear in Act II, and even asked Anders for his advice on capturing mages in Act I when it comes to dealing with mages.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 juillet 2011 - 04:45 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Because the Dalish help was short lived and then they went back to being, well Dalish.  

You mean the Dalish went back to living their lives and not sticking their necks out for humanity?

Well I was thinking more along the lines of completely closing themselves off and greeting outsiders with open hostility but yours works too.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish also aren't Andrastians and get threatened by the templars and the Chantry because of it, which means a mutually beneficial relationship isn't going to happen with templars trying to capture their mages and members of the Chantry trying to force them to convert. Both of these events happen for the Dalish in Sundermount. Even if there was a financial gain for some, it wouldn't change the actions of the templars or the members of the Chantry.

Which is why I also suggested that they keep living as they do for the moment.  You're right they can't change the Chantry or the Templars but if they were to trade with the villages, towns, and cities they pass the Chantry and Templars would be the only thing they'd have to worry about.  They wouldn't have to worry about town guards and militias gathering to drive them off because there's something for the local governance to gain by having them around.  As it stands the Dalish are just a danger wherever they go; their open hostility and lack of positive interaction means that as soon as they're located efforts begin to drive them off.  If they were to send traders to human settlements the approach of the Dalish would be welcomed by city officials and townsfolk because they have stuff to sell and will buy things.  The Chantry would still be a problem but it'll take longer for the Chantry and Templars to muster the forces to drive the Dalish off than it would if the entire settlement were set against them in most cases.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm not certain how he can attest to it being "unhealthy" when he lacks the knowledge to make an informed opinion on the issue.

The same way anyone can attest to remaining indoors and cutting off all social interaction to be unhealthy.  That she's working on the mirror isn't his concern, it's that she's working on the mirror to the exclusion of all else.  It'd be no different than if my friends came to me because I hadn't left my house in weeks because I was building model airplanes.  It's not the action it's the behaviour.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

Well I was thinking more along the lines of completely closing themselves off and greeting outsiders with open hostility but yours works too.

The reason for that is because the elves want to regain their immortality, which they believe was lost because of contact with humans.

DPSSOC wrote...

Which is why I also suggested that they keep living as they do for the moment.  You're right they can't change the Chantry or the Templars but if they were to trade with the villages, towns, and cities they pass the Chantry and Templars would be the only thing they'd have to worry about.  They wouldn't have to worry about town guards and militias gathering to drive them off because there's something for the local governance to gain by having them around.  As it stands the Dalish are just a danger wherever they go; their open hostility and lack of positive interaction means that as soon as they're located efforts begin to drive them off.  If they were to send traders to human settlements the approach of the Dalish would be welcomed by city officials and townsfolk because they have stuff to sell and will buy things.  The Chantry would still be a problem but it'll take longer for the Chantry and Templars to muster the forces to drive the Dalish off than it would if the entire settlement were set against them in most cases.

That might work, but it could also run into the problem Velanna's clan ran into, where humans tried to burn down the forest to keep the Dalish away from their settlement. Not every clan is the same, and not every Keeper would have the same goals. It might work for a particular religion, like Ferelden, where you could have someone like Lanaya to keep the peace between the two. That could be precisely what she does, since it's mentioned she is respected in the royal court and deals with the feuds between humans and elves.

DPSSOC wrote...

The same way anyone can attest to remaining indoors and cutting off all social interaction to be unhealthy.  That she's working on the mirror isn't his concern, it's that she's working on the mirror to the exclusion of all else.  It'd be no different than if my friends came to me because I hadn't left my house in weeks because I was building model airplanes.  It's not the action it's the behaviour.

Merrill doesn't cut off all social contact - she's focused on restoring the Eluvian and trying to solve the dilemma of a two thousand year old piece of elven technology. I wish Hawke was as proactive as Merrill when it came to the destitute people of Darktown, the disenfranchised elves of the Alienage, or the political situation caused by Meredith becoming the de facto Viscount when it seems like he hasn't done anything about the situation in three years despite being the Champion of Kirkwall.

[Lilunebrium]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I wish Hawke was as proactive as Merrill when it came to the destitute people of Darktown, the disenfranchised elves of the Alienage, or the political situation caused by Meredith becoming the de facto Viscount when it seems like he hasn't done anything about the situation in three years despite being the Champion of Kirkwall.

"I hereby claim you to be the Champion of my lair. Now go do my dishes."

That's pretty obscure reasoning right there. 

While I can understand that being pronounced Champion, or Hero of Ferelden for that matter, makes people have certain expectations, I never really understood how people can just assume Hawke must and will clean up politcal Templar/Mage messes, when all they've done is defeat the Arishok.
Helluvan achievement that, don't get me wrong, but the whole thing feels a bit 1+1=10 to me.

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 03 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[sphinxess]

Lilunebrium wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I wish Hawke was as proactive as Merrill when it came to the destitute people of Darktown, the disenfranchised elves of the Alienage, or the political situation caused by Meredith becoming the de facto Viscount when it seems like he hasn't done anything about the situation in three years despite being the Champion of Kirkwall.

"I hereby claim you to be the Champion of my lair. Now go do my dishes."

That's pretty obscure reasoning right there. 

While I can understand that being pronounced Champion, or Hero of Ferelden for that matter, makes people have certain expectations, I never really understood how people can just assume Hawke must and will clean up politcal Templar/Mage messes, when all they've done is defeat the Arishok.
Helluvan achievement that, don't get me wrong, but the whole thing feels a bit 1+1=10 to me.

I feel this way also. Being Champion doesn't even give you the right to High Justice < your a Noble but thats all>. One of the reasons I don't kill Andres is it feels like a setup. Meredith could say Avaline arrest Hawke for murder!

[FieryDove]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You were talking about the characters in the game who agreed with your opinion on the issue..

Well since there are no in-game characters that disagree with my characters view there isn't much to talk about. (Some Tevinters might disagree but those tend to be 99% demon after awhile and my non-BM mages kick their arses just fine).

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't pretend that Merrill would have succeeded (because we don't know whether she would have succeeded or failed), but her risk was no different than the risks taken by The Warden and by Hawke - why should the protagonist be allowed to risk his life for others, but not Merrill?.

You are comparing Merrill playing patty-cake with a demon as the same as what the warden did? Wow, just wow.
I can guess what Morrigan would say to Merrill it would be similar to Flemeth but with 100% more snark.

Good intentions for her clan ends up being meaningless when she is willing to put everyone else at risk including the whole alienage and Kirkwall not to mention Hawke and friends.

She admits to Hawke that she might get possessed in act 3 and that's why she needs him/her along...to kill her? Not a very good plan and she's not *just* putting herself at risk. Oh that's right, all dalish will die next week if they don't learn of the past. Much worse than a blight or two loose in the world.

And I think I'm done...good debate all, carry on.

[LobselVith8]

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You were talking about the characters in the game who agreed with your opinion on the issue..

Well since there are no in-game characters that disagree with my characters view there isn't much to talk about. (Some Tevinters might disagree but those tend to be 99% demon after awhile and my non-BM mages kick their arses just fine). 

Clearly Merrill doesn't agree with Keeper Marethari about the Eluvian. Merrill studied it extensively, while Marethari has an opinion that has to do with what she thinks the ancestors wanted.

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't pretend that Merrill would have succeeded (because we don't know whether she would have succeeded or failed), but her risk was no different than the risks taken by The Warden and by Hawke - why should the protagonist be allowed to risk his life for others, but not Merrill?.

You are comparing Merrill playing patty-cake with a demon as the same as what the warden did? Wow, just wow.
I can guess what Morrigan would say to Merrill it would be similar to Flemeth but with 100% more snark.

You mean Merrill risking her life for a chance to help her people is radically different than The Warden risking his life to help his people?

FieryDove wrote...

Good intentions for her clan ends up being meaningless when she is willing to put everyone else at risk including the whole alienage and Kirkwall not to mention Hawke and friends.

Merrill already cleansed the shard of the Eluvian, there was no danger of the corruption. You seem to blame Merrill and accuse her of endangering lives, but that's exactly what The Warden and Hawke do every time they have a companion accompany them on a dangerous venture.

FieryDove wrote...

She admits to Hawke that she might get possessed in act 3 and that's why she needs him/her along...to kill her?

So Merrill would rather be killed than pose a danger to innocent people. You're seriously attacking her for this?

FieryDove wrote...

Not a very good plan and she's not *just* putting herself at risk. Oh that's right, all dalish will die next week if they don't learn of the past. Much worse than a blight or two loose in the world.  

How is not a good plan when the possible reward was technology that may have been able to irrevocably change the lives of the elves across the continent? Merrill wants to end the plight of her people, which has lasted centuries. The discovery of the past is precisely what the Dalish are all about.

[Blessed Silence]

Foolsfolly wrote...

He's a terrorist with no plans for the future. He's got a massive chip on his shoulders and murders innocents to prove a broken point:

Mages aren't dangerous and deserve to be treated as human beings, now watch me blow up the organization that feeds and shelters orphans, helps the poor, and has remained stubbornly neutral in this storyline so far...

It's just...I don't like it. They took a carefree funny guy and turned him into a madman with ambitions but no follow-through. It's not even like it had the desired affect...unless Anders just wanted wanton slaughter through the streets.

I have to agree with you.  I romanced Anders in my first playthrough and sided with him in his decisions ... and when I got down to it, even I was like "man he is a real pr**k" and nothing like he was in DAA.  Very disappointed.

As for Merrill, she has, besides Varric, some of the best lines in the game IMO.

[CitizenThom]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

You know, I really wish they had done something like that for a lot of scenes in the game. Try to kill sister Petrice? Unwinnable fight with a hundred Templar Hunters.

I hope Bioware implements something of this sort into DA3. Sure, the story may not allow certian events to happen, or specific persons to die, but at least give the players the opportunity to act out in defiance, even if it's a dead end of a sort in the story.

[CitizenThom]

LobselVith8 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

By "the whole world," you mean the Keeper. One person. The clan agrees with the Keeper's opinion. Hawke can agree with either Marethari or Merrill from a place of ignorance about elven culture and technology. Merrill is proactive about wanting to help the People, while Hawke is reactive about pretty much everything in all three Acts.

I mean anybody....with sense. Keeper, clan, most of your companions comment on it or her being...stupid as Aveline puts it  and even Flemeth for pete sake.

Merrill is a great character no doubt. We should just agree to disagree because we won't be changing anyone's mind on the topic.

Aveline expects Merrill to move on from her history, which is easy for her to say because the humans didn't lose their history to slavery and subjugation.

Then again Aveline is a Ferelden... which if not enslaved was at least subjugated, and subjugated long enough that the recorded history of Ferelden culture prior to Orlesian occupation may in large part have been just as lost as that of the elves. [/devil's advocacy]

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Well I was thinking more along the lines of completely closing themselves off and greeting outsiders with open hostility but yours works too.

The reason for that is because the elves want to regain their immortality, which they believe was lost because of contact with humans.

I understand closing themselves off for that, though how they hope to sustain immortality while living in human lands is beyond me, but it's the hostility that's the problem.  To use a real world example Jehova's Witnesses are more likely to leave you alone if you let them give you their pitch and politely tell them you're not interested than if you greet them with a gun barrel and a 3 count.  Dalish hostility towards humans is what led to the fall of the Dales, wouldn't surprise me if it was what led to the fall of Arlathan, and it's why they are failing now.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill doesn't cut off all social contact - she's focused on restoring the Eluvian and trying to solve the dilemma of a two thousand year old piece of elven technology. I wish Hawke was as proactive as Merrill when it came to the destitute people of Darktown, the disenfranchised elves of the Alienage, or the political situation caused by Meredith becoming the de facto Viscount when it seems like he hasn't done anything about the situation in three years despite being the Champion of Kirkwall.

I'd have to watch the convo again, and I'm a long way in my furthest playthrough, but the impression I got from the conversation was that she'd been shutting herself off to work on the thing and Varric was concerned.

As for the Champion, and I realize I'm going to sound terrible for saying this, why should he/she be proactive in those situations?  They're not one of the destitute of Darktown or one of the disenfranchised elves so why should they get involved in something that not only isn't their problem personally but wouldn't affect them in the least.  Meredith's only a problem (and then only just) for the Champion if they're a mage, otherwise it just a matter of how concerned you are for Bethany.

[TEWR]

I understand closing themselves off for that, though how they hope to sustain immortality while living in human lands is beyond me, but it's the hostility that's the problem. To use a real world example Jehova's Witnesses are more likely to leave you alone if you let them give you their pitch and politely tell them you're not interested than if you greet them with a gun barrel and a 3 count. Dalish hostility towards humans is what led to the fall of the Dales, wouldn't surprise me if it was what led to the fall of Arlathan, and it's why they are failing now.

If they get a land of their own, then closing themselves off isn't really a problem. All they need is a land of their own and for the damn humans to just leave them alone.

I'd have to watch the convo again, and I'm a long way in my furthest playthrough, but the impression I got from the conversation was that she'd been shutting herself off to work on the thing and Varric was concerned.

In a romance with Hawke she does go out for some air, walk through the town. It's a project then that she's devoted to, not an obsession

As for the Champion, and I realize I'm going to sound terrible for saying this, why should he/she be proactive in those situations? They're not one of the destitute of Darktown or one of the disenfranchised elves so why should they get involved in something that not only isn't their problem personally but wouldn't affect them in the least. Meredith's only a problem (and then only just) for the Champion if they're a mage, otherwise it just a matter of how concerned you are for Bethany.

Were I in Hawke's place, I would help the Darktown refugees as a noble. Hawke supposedly amasses a fortune from his expedition (which sadly we don't see), so some of that money should go to some of the refugees who are from Ferelden.

Then, at the climax of Act 2, I would've gone down to Darktown and tried to rally a militia against the Qunari. I would've raided an armory, possibly the City Guard armory. I would've told them to pick up any weapons they find, even those that were wielded by the Qunari. Daggers, bows, swords and shields. Once I become Champion, I would make them my own private army.

Likewise, he has a partnership (later full ownership) of a mine that hires Fereldens. Once I acquired the mine, I would've made necessary provisions to the mine. I would've taken a team of people throughout the mine and the surrounding area to take out anything deemed as a threat (demons, undead, dragons, spiders). Sure we get those quests, and some of them do get permanently resolved, but who knows whatever threats still linger.

Then I would've hired Fereldens. Surely some of them were former soldiers, so I'd hire them as guards. I'd check in on the mine every week at least. Not to see if they're doing work, though that would be part of my reason, but to make sure no one had died. And if anyone had died for some reason, I'd kill whatever caused it.

That would be a start to helping the Darktown refugees.

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If they get a land of their own, then closing themselves off isn't really a problem. All they need is a land of their own and for the damn humans to just leave them alone.

But that's the thing that's a completely unrealistic goal and will just lead to a recreation of the Fall of the Dales.  People (human, elf, or dwarf) want to associate with other people, we're social animals.  If the Dalish violently turn away every human or dwarf that tries to get in to their little sanctuary it's going to inevitably lead to war.  Think how many Javaris Tintops there are in the world.  The only way they can sustain their immortality guarantees they will be attacked again, and because they are an inferior race (objectively speaking) they're going to lose again, and again, and again.  The only hope they have is happening upon a Lord of the Rings Silmarillion style option where there's an island nobody can find unless they want them too.  So it just strikes me as odd that none of them have caught on to this.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
In a romance with Hawke she does go out for some air, walk through the town. It's a project then that she's devoted to, not an obsession

Ah.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Were I in Hawke's place, I would help the Darktown refugees as a noble. Hawke supposedly amasses a fortune from his expedition (which sadly we don't see), so some of that money should go to some of the refugees who are from Ferelden.

Again, why?  I get that Hawke could help people as Champion, and even before Champion, but why would they?  What do they gain from it?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Then, at the climax of Act 2, I would've gone down to Darktown and tried to rally a militia against the Qunari. I would've raided an armory, possibly the City Guard armory. I would've told them to pick up any weapons they find, even those that were wielded by the Qunari. Daggers, bows, swords and shields. Once I become Champion, I would make them my own private army.

Ok I can kind of understand helping the destitute in order to manipulate them into becoming your own private army, but wouldn't it make more sense to target Lowtown or Mercenary bands like the Red Iron?  While circumstance does play a part the destitute are generally destitute because they lack the skills to provide for themselves (they can't get jobs), so it would seem more effective to recruit from those of some skill (the proficient poor) or from specialist organizations (mercenaries).  Mind you probably wouldn't get the same kind of loyalty but you win some you lose some.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Likewise, he has a partnership (later full ownership) of a mine that hires Fereldens. Once I acquired the mine, I would've made necessary provisions to the mine. I would've taken a team of people throughout the mine and the surrounding area to take out anything deemed as a threat (demons, undead, dragons, spiders). Sure we get those quests, and some of them do get permanently resolved, but who knows whatever threats still linger.

Then I would've hired Fereldens. Surely some of them were former soldiers, so I'd hire them as guards. I'd check in on the mine every week at least. Not to see if they're doing work, though that would be part of my reason, but to make sure no one had died. And if anyone had died for some reason, I'd kill whatever caused it.

That would be a start to helping the Darktown refugees.

I guess I can see motivation for Hawke to do this (better run mine = more profit) but considering they get a 50% cut with no money in I can also understand not wanting to rock the boat.

[TEWR]

But that's the thing that's a completely unrealistic goal and will just lead to a recreation of the Fall of the Dales. People (human, elf, or dwarf) want to associate with other people, we're social animals. If the Dalish violently turn away every human or dwarf that tries to get in to their little sanctuary it's going to inevitably lead to war. Think how many Javaris Tintops there are in the world. The only way they can sustain their immortality guarantees they will be attacked again, and because they are an inferior race (objectively speaking) they're going to lose again, and again, and again. The only hope they have is happening upon a Lord of the Rings Silmarillion style option where there's an island nobody can find unless they want them too. So it just strikes me as odd that none of them have caught on to this.

Actually..... the Dalish boon did lead to it happening again. That's the sad thing. King Alistair swears though that he'll make it up to the elves, but something happened to them.

I don't think there's anything wrong though with isolationism. The problem is that humans are racist towards elves and will never let go of that. They can't stand the though of elves having their own land and always view the Dalish as savages. There was a codex entry in Awakening from the Wending Wood where a noble or mayor called them that.

Again, why? I get that Hawke could help people as Champion, and even before Champion, but why would they? What do they gain from it?

What does Hawke gain? Better credibility with the people of Darktown. What do the refugees gain? Better lives.


Regarding the elves, one would think that Merrill's friendship with people in the Alienage combined with killing Kelder would establish something with them as well. It might make them think that if they support Hawke, he'll make their lives much better.

Ok I can kind of understand helping the destitute in order to manipulate them into becoming your own private army, but wouldn't it make more sense to target Lowtown or Mercenary bands like the Red Iron? While circumstance does play a part the destitute are generally destitute because they lack the skills to provide for themselves (they can't get jobs), so it would seem more effective to recruit from those of some skill (the proficient poor) or from specialist organizations (mercenaries). Mind you probably wouldn't get the same kind of loyalty but you win some you lose some.

Ah yes I forgot about the role of Athenril in my grand scheme. I would use her network to sabotage the Qunari and help infiltrate the armories.

Lowtown was already taken remember? And I don't side with Meeran. Actually I end up betraying him in the prologue.

Were I Hawke though, I'd try and work for both of them. See if that would work. Doubtful it would, but hey the more connections the better! If it did work, I would ask Meeran to assist me in taking back Kirkwall and afterwards ask him to become a part of my private army and help train new people. Or at least give me some of his mercenaries so I could have some people train new blood.

I guess I can see motivation for Hawke to do this (better run mine = more profit) but considering they get a 50% cut with no money in I can also understand not wanting to rock the boat.

Step 1: We go to the mine.
Step 2: something exciting happens
Step 3: Profit!