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[Killjoy Cutter]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I temporarily edited the damage on a couple of weapons so that I could kill every enemy in one shot, including the YMIR, just to try beating Zaeed's mission as fast as possible. I've rescued the workers and fought through to Vido as fast as Shep can run through the building without standing still or ducking for cover once, and it's still not fast enough.

On the other hand , I've ignored the workers, and then left Shep and squad standing in a safe spot for an hour or more while making dinner, come back, and still caught Vido "just in time" at the end.

Is it the fault of poor writing when you deliberately make it ridiculous?

No, that level of test was necessary to absolutely confirm the poor writing and design.  It was no different than crash testing a car to see if it's safe -- sometimes a test has to go to the breaking point to confirm your theory. 

The fact is, you can NEVER go slow enough for Vido to escape if you ignore the workers and let them die, and you can NEVER go fast enough to catch Vido if you save the workers. 

[Koji-san]

I don't mind the timing of the loyalty mission. I come from an RPG background so I love to faff about and peek into crates and collect ammo etc etc. I like that I can be a completionist and STILL get/miss Vido at the last moment. Nice mix of leisure and tension.

Also, wierdly enough, i think you can still win Zaeed's loyalty by saving the workers, even if you are super renegade everywhere else. I read somewhere that the morality system in ME2 was based more on ratios rather than which bar you have filled up more. It seemed complicated but I did his LM as soon as I got him and I didn't have anything filled up in either Ren or Par but I still got the option to "sweet-talk" him into seeing things my Shep's way.

[Seboist]

Talk-jutsu-ing Zaeed into submission after costing him his revenge ranks up there with Helena Blake becoming a social worker.

[Sepewrath]

Poor writing? What a joke. The person who wrote that is either doesn't know a thing about how video game works or being needlessly dense to try and make a point. Because the reality is, Vido would get away no matter what you did, he had a head start and he slowed you down with his men.

Save the hostages or not, in reality he gets away. But in a video game, the world waits for you, if video games had to play with a real world time flow. Either every game would be an hour long or the hero would never win.

[Labrev]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

No, that level of test was necessary to absolutely confirm the poor writing and design.  It was no different than crash testing a car to see if it's safe -- sometimes a test has to go to the breaking point to confirm your theory. 

The fact is, you can NEVER go slow enough for Vido to escape if you ignore the workers and let them die, and you can NEVER go fast enough to catch Vido if you save the workers.

Yeah, and you can stop and wait two hours before you respond to an NPC who's talking to Shepard.


That's the way it goes with RPGs. #justgowithit.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 01 octobre 2011 - 03:25 .

[Labrev]

Sepewrath wrote...

Because the reality is, Vido would get away no matter what you did, he had a head start and he slowed you down with his men.

If the building is on fire, it might take longer for him to get out. And he was also wounded/moving slowly.

[Dave of Canada]

Koji-san wrote...

I read somewhere that the morality system in ME2 was based more on ratios rather than which bar you have filled up more.

Essentially, how it works is that the sooner you do it the easier it technically is. Say that you've been through a discussion with a potential of 50 Renegade points and you've only gained 30 of them, you'd be at 60% and would be capable of doing all intimidate options which require 60% Renegade.

So if you're trapped in the middle and balance everything out perfectly, you can be 50/50 and do every charm and intimidate option which requires 50% but you'd be left out of other dialogue options. Somebody who's a little bit paragon and heavy renegade can screw things up badly by trapping themselves outside the percentage required to intimidate somebody, as even a full bar doesn't qualify as "always capable of intimidating".

Zaeed's loyalty mission, if I recall correctly, only requires 30% Paragon to charm him. You can't "intimidate" him to be loyal, which means Renegades who decide to go and save the workers for one reason or another will be left without his loyalty.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 octobre 2011 - 03:28 .

[Sepewrath]

Well if your going to try and pull biology into it, that wound and the fact that Zaeed was trying to kill him, would have caused him to have a massive amount of adrenaline going. He would have been able to get out really fast, there is no way you would catch him. Especially with Shepard stopping to punch people in the face and then getting into huge firefights.

He didn't even have to go that far. I would say what they did was fine, they route to save the workers was a long way to get to Vido. It would be one thing if it was just another route or equal distance to the goal. You literally go in a circle, that's a time waster. So it makes sense in the confines of a video game.

[Seboist]

Yeah, the whole ratio thing with the persuasion is a pain in the ass. The one example that pisses me off the most is that the intimidate option for the Tali vs Legion dispute requires an incredibly high renegade ratio but the charm one in which Shepard practically says the same thing requires a far lower Paragon ratio.

[Dave of Canada]

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, the whole ratio thing with the persuasion is a pain in the ass. The one example that pisses me off the most is that the intimidate option for the Tali vs Legion dispute requires an incredibly high renegade ratio but the charm one in which Shepard practically says the same thing requires a far lower Paragon ratio.

We do get a better speech, though.

/stillnotworththehassle

[Labrev]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zaeed's loyalty mission, if I recall correctly, only requires 30% Paragon to charm him. You can't "intimidate" him to be loyal, which means Renegades who decide to go and save the workers for one reason or another will be left without his loyalty.

It's really a damn shame how much they assume our motives. Like no Renegade would want to take the other path. IDK why they can't include both options to try to do the same things. Like, saving the heretic-geth by giving Renegade rationale, and getting Rene-points instead of Paragon.

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, the whole ratio thing with the persuasion is a pain in the ass. The one example that pisses me off the most is that the intimidate option for the Tali vs Legion dispute requires an incredibly high renegade ratio but the charm one in which Shepard practically says the same thing requires a far lower Paragon ratio.

The opposite is true of Jack/Miranda fight. One of the devs that posted here reasoned that you'd have to put your foot down with the girls, but Tali and Legion would be more accepting to reason (even though Tali can be pretty damn unreasonable at times).

[Seboist]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zaeed's loyalty mission, if I recall correctly, only requires 30% Paragon to charm him. You can't "intimidate" him to be loyal, which means Renegades who decide to go and save the workers for one reason or another will be left without his loyalty.

It's really a damn shame how much they assume our motives. Like no Renegade would want to take the other path. IDK why they can't include both options to try to do the same things. Like, saving the heretic-geth by giving Renegade rationale, and getting Rene-points instead of Paragon.

Yeah, that's one of my biggest gripes with the two dimensional morality system is that it doesn't give us enough options to properly role play the motivations of our Shepard.  My canon Shepard for example spared the Rachni Queen and rewrote the Heretic Geth because she wants human allies against the three council races but this game railroads her into being some blubbering kumbaya singing do gooder idealist.

[Sepewrath]

Yeah those kind of things are the shortcomings of morality systems. But people need to stop thinking in terms of "Am I paragon or am I renegade" Think its a decision you make at that moment, instead of a decision you make for points or meters. Then maybe developers would stop thinking like that.

That Geth situation is not really about paragon/renegade, its rationale. You see their susceptible to this, para or rene, you may need to take this opportunity to thin their numbers in case the Reapers do it again. Or you look at it as, bringing more to your side and getting them out of your hair.

[Dave of Canada]

It doesn't help either that some Renegades might feel they want to save the workers because there's money to be made, I think you make nearly double what the normal Renegade route gives you.

[Seboist]

Sepewrath wrote...

Yeah those kind of things are the shortcomings of morality systems. But people need to stop thinking in terms of "Am I paragon or am I renegade" Think its a decision you make at that moment, instead of a decision you make for points or meters. Then maybe developers would stop thinking like that.

That Geth situation is not really about paragon/renegade, its rationale. You see their susceptible to this, para or rene, you may need to take this opportunity to thin their numbers in case the Reapers do it again. Or you look at it as, bringing more to your side and getting them out of your hair.

I try to ignore the morality system as best as I can and do whatever that suits the character of the Shepard I'm playing as but I can't help having that lingering thought at the back of my head about whether or not I have enough arbitary magic points to be able to pick a dialogue that suits them or the option of choosing Morinth.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Talk-jutsu-ing Zaeed into submission after costing him his revenge ranks up there with Helena Blake becoming a social worker.

Crowning moment of awesome?

[Seboist]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Talk-jutsu-ing Zaeed into submission after costing him his revenge ranks up there with Helena Blake becoming a social worker.

Crowning moment of awesome?

Sure, if you're trying to play as Space Jesus.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Talk-jutsu-ing Zaeed into submission after costing him his revenge ranks up there with Helena Blake becoming a social worker.

Crowning moment of awesome?

Sure, if you're trying to play as Space Jesus.

Works for me.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's a little egotistical even for you, Xil.

[Yezdigerd]

Seboist wrote...

Talk-jutsu-ing Zaeed into submission after costing him his revenge ranks up there with Helena Blake becoming a social worker.

Not really. As soon as Zaeed cools down he would realize how rediculous it would be to expect Shepard to throw away the mission and let the workers burn do death to indulge Zaeed dreams of revenge.That is if have a shred of human decency. A Shepard who can chose the renegade path here is not someone as sane person would want as a commanding officer.

As for Zaeed it's pity they didn't give him some depth. He tries so hard spouting badass mercenary lines that he comes across as fake. Wrex is so much better as the gritty veteran mercenary just because it doesn't seem he reads out of soldier of fortune.

[Seboist]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Talk-jutsu-ing Zaeed into submission after costing him his revenge ranks up there with Helena Blake becoming a social worker.

Not really. As soon as Zaeed cools down he would realize how rediculous it would be to expect Shepard to throw away the mission and let the workers burn do death to indulge Zaeed dreams of revenge.That is if have a shred of human decency. A Shepard who can chose the renegade path here is not someone as sane person would want as a commanding officer.

As for Zaeed it's pity they didn't give him some depth. He tries so hard spouting badass mercenary lines that he comes across as fake. Wrex is so much better as the gritty veteran mercenary just because it doesn't seem he reads out of soldier of fortune.

Zaeed is a ruthless thug mercenary who's known nothing but violence for most of his life and has been obsessed with getting revenge for 20 years, him being swayed by space jesus Paragon Shepard in less than a minute after being denied his revenge is beyond ridiculous.

Leaving him to burn is the only thing that makes the Paragon path believable.

[Sepewrath]

Well its not like he swayed to follow the path of peace or something. He was swayed to not have a shootout with Shepard on the spot. Don't let the game mechanic of gaining loyalty make it seem like it was more than it really was.