637 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well its not like he swayed to follow the path of peace or something. He was swayed to not have a shootout with Shepard on the spot. Don't let the game mechanic of gaining loyalty make it seem like it was more than it really was.

However, they could have simply did without the loyalty. You wanted to save the workers? Zaeed's pissed off at you and he isn't loyal, you didn't earn his loyalty with your decision.

There's no way to intimidate Tali's loyalty if you give the Admiralty Board the evidence for example, why couldn't they have done this for Zaeed?

[Yezdigerd]

The thing you guys miss is that Zaeed screws Shepard over. You are there to liberate those people instead Zaeed decides by himself to ditch the mission to get Vito. The workers will burn to death because Shepard's team messed up.
Now you can be his **** or you can give him the smackdown his behaviour merits.
If Zaeed really is a veteran mercenary he would understand that no leader worthy of respect would stand for his actions.
If anything why would you earn Zaeed's loyalty and respect by being his doormat and have is way in all things? Renegade Shepard might have Zaeed's gratitude but why be loyal to someone that are so spineless? Renshep's hardon for Zaeed might even make him uncomfortable unless he is bisexual.

[phantomdragoness]

Zaeed may have said they were going to rescue workers, but his entire reasoning was to go after Vido all along. He didn't give a squat about the workers or their plight. Yes, he lied and walking into a mission under false pretenses always gets my goat (pardon the cliche). What everyone else is saying is a Paragon Shepard's persuasion doesn't hold the story well. I tend to agree, giving Zaeed's personality and lifestyle. I imagine a player can add in his or her own RPG elements and say Zaeed and Shep develop a relationship (not romantic or even friendly) long before they actually storm the Blue Sun's base. That way, Zaeed has a better respect for Shepard where his "surrender" seems realistic. That's what I tend to do at least, and the Paragon argument works for me a little more. The power of imagination at its best! Also, Zaeed may have been the co-founder of the Blue Suns BUT he has been working the lone wolf gig for how many years? The guy doesn't trust anyone enough anymore to lead anyone; he is always expecting people to drop and run - which is what Shepard does in Zaeed's perspective when Shep goes after the workers instead of Vido. Zaeed is a horrible leader because he trusts only himself. He will always be looking for hidden agendas, which takes away his ability to lead. And, Zaeed respects you for getting Vido because you had his back. Or, he at least thinks you do whether you indeed killed Vido for Zaeed or to prevent another hijacked oil refinery. Either way, Zaeed respects you for letting him get his revenge on someone who shot him in the face.

A lot of what is missing in ME2 is deep interaction between the player and their squadmates - you don't get a firm grasp on some elements. With Zaeed, he has dialog sure, but you can't have a conversation with him like Thane or Samara; he preaches to you. They did the same to Garrus if you just want to be friends with him. You get the "reach and flexibility" joke, and the rest is nothing but calibrations. I'm glad they are expanding on character interaction in ME3 so I can get a better understanding of the crew, and they can get a better understanding of Shep where a decision like Zaeed's will feel more authentic.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 02 octobre 2011 - 09:22 .

[Xilizhra]

There's no way to intimidate Tali's loyalty if you give the Admiralty Board the evidence for example, why couldn't they have done this for Zaeed?

Because there already is a Renegade path for completing Tali's loyalty mission and getting hers. Yes, it's harder and requires Intimidate; getting Zaeed's loyalty as a Paragon is harder and requires Charm. It's the exact same thing.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

There's no way to intimidate Tali's loyalty if you give the Admiralty Board the evidence for example, why couldn't they have done this for Zaeed?

Because there already is a Renegade path for completing Tali's loyalty mission and getting hers. Yes, it's harder and requires Intimidate; getting Zaeed's loyalty as a Paragon is harder and requires Charm. It's the exact same thing.

I fail to see how nonsensically screaming at the Admiralty Board is the same as giving them evidence of Rael's crimes, aside from the fact that both actions are rewarded with Renegade points.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 02 octobre 2011 - 02:25 .

[Xilizhra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There's no way to intimidate Tali's loyalty if you give the Admiralty Board the evidence for example, why couldn't they have done this for Zaeed?

Because there already is a Renegade path for completing Tali's loyalty mission and getting hers. Yes, it's harder and requires Intimidate; getting Zaeed's loyalty as a Paragon is harder and requires Charm. It's the exact same thing.

I fail to see how nonsensically screaming at the Admiralty Board is the same as giving them evidence of Rael's crimes, aside from the fact that both actions are rewarded with Renegade points.

It's not nonsensical. The admirals really are creating an unfair trial situation with worries about the geth getting in the way of looking at Tali objectively.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not nonsensical. The admirals really are creating an unfair trial situation with worries about the geth getting in the way of looking at Tali objectively.

Tali isn't relevant aside from the fact that she got you into that mess, what matters is what Rael has done, and that the people should know what happened to their friends and family members.

[Xilizhra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not nonsensical. The admirals really are creating an unfair trial situation with worries about the geth getting in the way of looking at Tali objectively.

Tali isn't relevant aside from the fact that she got you into that mess, what matters is what Rael has done, and that the people should know what happened to their friends and family members.

What, it would really be a comfort to know that they were all participants in the quarians' worst war crime? As it is now, everyone thinks it was just a tragic accident. The grief'll be easier to deal with that way. In any case, Tali's relevant to my mission to save the galaxy, and I won't screw up her focus without a compelling reason.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not nonsensical. The admirals really are creating an unfair trial situation with worries about the geth getting in the way of looking at Tali objectively.

Tali isn't relevant aside from the fact that she got you into that mess, what matters is what Rael has done, and that the people should know what happened to their friends and family members.

What, it would really be a comfort to know that they were all participants in the quarians' worst war crime? As it is now, everyone thinks it was just a tragic accident. The grief'll be easier to deal with that way. In any case, Tali's relevant to my mission to save the galaxy, and I won't screw up her focus without a compelling reason.

Let them know the truth, however uncomfortable it might turn out to be. From a meta perspective, I want the Flotilla's situation in ME3 to change because of it, although I still doubt they'll do anything with those choices.

As for Zaeed, I wonder what they'll do with him in ME3. I certainly don't want him to be given the Kaishley treatment...

[Dave of Canada]

If you let Vido live: Zaeed, consumed by vengeance, hunts down Vido as the universe is crumbling. He doesn't care who lives or dies, he just wants to go out with Vido eliminated and he wants to do it with style.

If you let him kill Vido: Zaeed has regained control of the Blue Suns, kicked out all the Batarians from the group and leads his gang to Shepard's fleet to offer as much help as he can because he feels he owes him/her. That and he wants to go out with a bang.

[Xilizhra]

If you let him kill Vido: Zaeed has regained control of the Blue Suns, kicked out all the Batarians from the group and leads his gang to Shepard's fleet to offer as much help as he can because he feels he owes him/her. That and he wants to go out with a bang.

Uh, no. Solem Del'Serah, titular head of the Blue Suns, takes over completely and the batarians will never leave.

Are you? I'm here to get Zaeed's loyalty. I don't wander across the galaxy searching for small groups of people in need of help.

Ah, so no N7 missions either?

My stakes are much higher than that. I've got a bigger goal - the Collectors. The Reapers. Saving humanity. Saving the galaxy. And for that, my team must be at its best. Anything less means risking my mission. Potentially risking trillions of lives. If you think you can afford that...go ahead. I can't.

If Zaeed thinks he can be a mission-screwing-up loose cannon, I'd rather not have him on my ship at all. He'd be a bigger risk.

By that logic, Shepard should authomatically gain Tali's loyalty and have her at full efficiency by refusing to cover up her father's crimes, and thus proving that he's not her doormat. But guess what, it doesn't work this way. If you did that for Tali, why not do that for Zaeed?

Because Tali's not a soldier at heart and has a different set of values, and because Zaeed, on some level, knows the issue was his own damn fault.

[Xilizhra]

The Admirals know the truth anyway. The trial's one big farce. If the Admirals wanted to, they'd tell their people everything. But apparently, it's "you can't handle the truth" again, it would seem that nobody can, no matter the species. How is this galaxy going to survive the Reapers with its eyes closed and its ears covered is beyond me.

Well, Gerrel had to be told. Xen found out herself... I don't know what Koris' status is.

[Yezdigerd]

laecraft wrote...

Are you? I'm here to get Zaeed's loyalty.I don't wander across the galaxy searching for small groups of people in need of help. I'm not a vigilante, nor am I a hired hand. My stakes are much higher than that. I've got a bigger goal - the Collectors. The Reapers. Saving humanity. Saving the galaxy. And for that, my team must be at its best. Anything less means risking my mission. Potentially risking trillions of lives.

The alleged purpose of the mission is that yes, what has following Zaeed to Zoya to do with gaining Zaeed's loyalty unless you are metagaming?
Are you saying Zaeed duped you into helping him kill Vito?

If you think you can afford that...go ahead. I can't.

You do realize that by letting Zaeed get away with murder, you are encouraging his contempt for your authority?
What will stop him from doing this again to save his own hide, for example? That he is so impressed with you for letting some innocent people burn alive so he could have his revenge? I mean clearly you ar capable of atrocities for the flimsiest of reasons if it serves your purpose so any normal human being would be a fool to trust you.

By that logic, Shepard should authomatically gain Tali's loyalty and have her at full efficiency by refusing to cover up her father's crimes, and thus proving that he's not her doormat. But guess what, it doesn't work this way. If you did that for Tali, why not do that for Zaeed?

Tali didn't jeopardize the mission, I very much doubt she would have asked Shepard to cover up her father's actions if it meant leaving quarians to die in fires. I think it was poorly handled though, not presenting the evidence should have let to Tali being exiled no matter what.

Anyway this a Zaeed support thread, I wont derail it further.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 02 octobre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

laecraft wrote...

The Admirals know the truth anyway. The trial's one big farce. If the Admirals wanted to, they'd tell their people everything.

Doesn't matter, the people need to know. And if Rael's data become to politcally volatile to use for a while, then that's a good enough side effect.

[Xilizhra]

I really hope they get rid of N7-style missions on ME3, because I can't imagine myself doing irrelevant side-quests at my leisure while everyone's being slaughtered around me. It would really detract from the sense of urgency and stretch my suspension of disbelief.

Note that after Horizon, the Collectors pretty much stop. There's no longer any urgency.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Uh, no. Solem Del'Serah, titular head of the Blue Suns, takes over completely and the batarians will never leave.

We've eliminated the leadership, a few Commanders and a few of their bases. I'm pretty sure the Head of Operations isn't going to survive Zaeed's wrath, especially not with the disarray that Vido's death will cause among their ranks.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

I really hope they get rid of N7-style missions on ME3, because I can't imagine myself doing irrelevant side-quests at my leisure while everyone's being slaughtered around me. It would really detract from the sense of urgency and stretch my suspension of disbelief.

Note that after Horizon, the Collectors pretty much stop. There's no longer any urgency.

If only the cops had that same kind of attitude after a bunch of people have just been kidnapped. No urgency, as they're already gone.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 02 octobre 2011 - 04:11 .

[Xilizhra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I really hope they get rid of N7-style missions on ME3, because I can't imagine myself doing irrelevant side-quests at my leisure while everyone's being slaughtered around me. It would really detract from the sense of urgency and stretch my suspension of disbelief.

Note that after Horizon, the Collectors pretty much stop. There's no longer any urgency.

If only the cops had that same kind of attitude after a bunch of people have just been kidnapped. No urgency, as they're already gone.

You're well within your rights to wish that anyone at all would mention that people were already kidnapped, but oddly, that subject never comes up in any crew discussions.

[Seboist]

I went after Vido so Zaeed can focus all of his attention on my femshep. <3

[Labrev]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not nonsensical. The admirals really are creating an unfair trial situation with worries about the geth getting in the way of looking at Tali objectively.

Tali isn't relevant aside from the fact that she got you into that mess, what matters is what Rael has done, and that the people should know what happened to their friends and family members.

Nah. Tali, and securing her loyalty, are really about the only things relevant on that mission. The friends and family that died because of Rael don't matter any more than the workers that die on Zaeed's mission. Your job is to make sure your team is "up" come time for Omega-4, nothing else.

It's really not worth it either. One less loyal member in your squad, and it only causes more problems for the quarians. They're better off ignorant.

[Labrev]

laecraft wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you let Vido live: Zaeed, consumed by vengeance, hunts down Vido as the universe is crumbling. He doesn't care who lives or dies, he just wants to go out with Vido eliminated and he wants to do it with style.

If you let him kill Vido: Zaeed has regained control of the Blue Suns, kicked out all the Batarians from the group and leads his gang to Shepard's fleet to offer as much help as he can because he feels he owes him/her. That and he wants to go out with a bang.

Brilliant. It would make perfect sense. I want to see it happen.

First one makes sense, not sure about #2. Nobody respected Zaeed enough as a leader the first time, why would it be different if he stages a coup as a non-member?

Zaeed is no more likely to bring you Blue Suns support than Garrus will bring you the Turian Military.