637 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

To be honest, I don't understand the difference between the trial and Zaeed's loyalty mission. You forsake the loyalty for what you believe is right, the only difference is that Jesus Shepard's words can turn a vengeful man into a loyal one.

[Seboist]

I wish there wasn't any talk-jutsu in ME. What Shepard says doesn't even sound convincing most of the time.

[Sepewrath]

laecraft wrote...
Well, yeah, he cooperated to avoid being shot / being left to burn. But it makes no sense for him to actually become loyal at heart. Personally, I'd hate anyone who tried to force my loyalty at gun point. Such an attempt would achieve an opposite effect with me.

Also, I object strongly to the deus ex flying metal beam. That was unexpected.

Like I said, loyalty is nothing but a game mechanic. Since you had no relationship with Zaeed because he lacked dialogue, you couldn't see any fallout from the situation. Like if you give up the evidence at Tali's trial, she is pissed at Shepard, its not just about loyalty. They punish you by not giving you the extra power, something they probably didn't need to do. They could have just expressed it in the relationships, like how Jack will refuse to talk to you if you have sex with her. People need to stop looking at loyalty like it means anything, it doesn't.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Nobody respected Zaeed enough as a leader the first time,

#Citation Needed

why would it be different if he stages a coup as a non-member?

This one actually is better. Zaeed has old ties, not still-running ones. The only Blue Suns member we know of who even knew Zaeed, we killed.

'Zaeed takes over Blue Suns' would have been a good subplot if they had bothered to build it up in ME2. They never did. There's no reason to think anything else of it: Zaeed once was a big shot, not he's a good shot merc.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Nobody respected Zaeed enough as a leader the first time,

#Citation Needed

why would it be different if he stages a coup as a non-member?

This one actually is better. Zaeed has old ties, not still-running ones. The only Blue Suns member we know of who even knew Zaeed, we killed.

'Zaeed takes over Blue Suns' would have been a good subplot if they had bothered to build it up in ME2. They never did. There's no reason to think anything else of it: Zaeed once was a big shot, not he's a good shot merc.

I wish there would be a LOTSB style mission in ME3 where we'd help Zaeed take down Solem Del'Serah  and have him take over the Blue Suns.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

To be honest, I don't understand the difference between the trial and Zaeed's loyalty mission. You forsake the loyalty for what you believe is right, the only difference is that Jesus Shepard's words can turn a vengeful man into a loyal one.

As I said, Zaeed realizes that it was in large part his own fault that Vido got away.

[Dean_the_Young]

'You're doing things my way' was Shepard's decision, not Zaeed's.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'You're doing things my way' was Shepard's decision, not Zaeed's.

If Zaeed hadn't blown up the refinery, Shepard wouldn't have been diverted by the need to fulfill the actual mission Zaeed was hired for.

I find it interesting, I admit, that those of you who think Zaeed would never be loyal to Shepard after this seem to think less of him than I. I respect his ability to move past vengeance, at least temporarily, and it's one of the things that actually makes me like him. Kind of.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'You're doing things my way' was Shepard's decision, not Zaeed's.

If Zaeed hadn't blown up the refinery, Shepard wouldn't have been diverted by the need to fulfill the actual mission Zaeed was hired for.

And if papa Shepard and mommy Shepard hadn't gotten drunk and made baby Shepard, there wouldn't be a Shepard. That doesn't mean mommy and papa Shepard are responsible for Shepard's decision.

The only person to be held accountable for 'Shepard being diverted by the need to fulfill the actual mission Zaeed was hiried for' is, well, Shepard's personal desires and decisions. There is no 'need' to complete the mission Zaeed was hired for.

I find it interesting, I admit, that those of you who think Zaeed would never be loyal to Shepard after this seem to think less of him than I. I respect his ability to move past vengeance, at least temporarily, and it's one of the things that actually makes me like him. Kind of.

The Illusive Man can move past vengeance, at least temporarily.

[Xilizhra]

And if papa Shepard and mommy Shepard hadn't gotten drunk and made baby Shepard, there wouldn't be a Shepard. That doesn't mean mommy and papa Shepard are responsible for Shepard's decision.

The only person to be held accountable for 'Shepard being diverted by the need to fulfill the actual mission Zaeed was hiried for' is, well, Shepard's personal desires and decisions. There is no 'need' to complete the mission Zaeed was hired for.

True, but that circumstance would never been brought about had Zaeed not done something to make it happen.

[phantomdragoness]

I don't think less of Zaeed at all. I admire his ability to be able to put vengeance aside for the time being. I just wish the process in doing this was written a tad better. *shrugs*

[Kaiser Shepard]

Why would you possibly want to put vengeance aside, or force someone else to?

Why disregard holy justice?

[Labrev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

#Citation Needed

From a meta-standpoint it seems obvious, to me, that Zaeed was written with the intent of being considered a character too ruthless to be a good leader. I don't particularly like that idea, but it is what it is. When given the nod to lead either fireteam in the suicide-mission, either he or the tech-specialist will bite it. It can also be seen on his Shadow Broker dossier: "lost leadership of Blue Suns through lack of interpersonal skills and political judgement."

Aside from that, Zaeed's story of losing his leadership with the 'Suns is very telling: Vido turned his men on him by essentially buying their loyalty. To me, when you're talking about the guy that the rest of the team should readily be willing to lay down their lives for, the fact that they sold out on him for creds is pretty sad. If he truly commanded respect, that shouldn't happen.

You think those guys would sell out on Vido as easily? Doesn't seem like anyone has challenged him (or at least done so successfully) in the twenty years since he took over. If that man were my boss I would probably hate him, but never dare cross him!

This one actually is better. Zaeed has old ties, not still-running ones. The only Blue Suns member we know of who even knew Zaeed, we killed.

'Zaeed takes over Blue Suns' would have been a good subplot if they had bothered to build it up in ME2. They never did. There's no reason to think anything else of it: Zaeed once was a big shot, not he's a good shot merc.

It would be interesting. But as I said, I don't think that's what Zaeed is supposed to be. He's a bounty-hunter, a guy that is to be looked at as better as an individual soldier than a leader.
I still wouldn't put Jacob in charge of any team over Zaeed, but whatever.

[Seboist]

Jacob being a viable fire team leader is a major WTF. The guy never displays any charisma or interpersonal skills and is shown to make impulsive shortsighted decisions like wanting to space Legion, rushing to the SM and volunteering himself to be a tech specialist.

That said, my Jacobmancer femshep picked him for fire team leader.

[Xilizhra]

Why would you possibly want to put vengeance aside, or force someone else to?

Why disregard holy justice?

Vengeance is one of the most worthless concepts imaginable. It's a corrupt version of the already impractical "justice for the dead" concept. Only spite is a darker emotion.

Jacob being a viable fire team leader is a major WTF. The guy never displays any charisma or interpersonal skills and is shown to make impulsive shortsighted decisions like wanting to space Legion, rushing to the SM and volunteering himself to be a tech specialist.

I admit, it seems a bit odd, but I suppose they didn't want there to be only two possible leaders.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would you possibly want to put vengeance aside, or force someone else to?

Why disregard holy justice?

Vengeance is one of the most worthless concepts imaginable. It's a corrupt version of the already impractical "justice for the dead" concept. Only spite is a darker emotion.

You continue to put these things as if they're somehow bad, whereas they in fact contribute to a safer and securer society. And even if they wouldn't, justice itself would be worth the effort.

As for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to properly coordinate a team.

[Koji-san]

More Zaeed pics please..

[Labrev]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to properly coordinate a team.

Zaeed was once Alliance too.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to properly coordinate a team.

Zaeed was once Alliance too.

True, but he's been surviving on his own for god knows how long now.

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to properly coordinate a team.

Zaeed was once Alliance too.

True, but he's been surviving on his own for god knows how long now.

He's been part of larger operations like that one into the Krogan DMZ.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to properly coordinate a team.

Zaeed was once Alliance too.

True, but he's been surviving on his own for god knows how long now.

He's been part of larger operations like that one into the Krogan DMZ.

Most of the assignments he was on ended with just him surviving. He might be a goddamn good mercenary, but not exactly a great motivator or coordinator.

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to properly coordinate a team.

Zaeed was once Alliance too.

True, but he's been surviving on his own for god knows how long now.

He's been part of larger operations like that one into the Krogan DMZ.

Most of the assignments he was on ended with just him surviving. He might be a goddamn good mercenary, but not exactly a great motivator or coordinator.

We don't know anything about those assignments other than they were high risk ones with heavy losses. I don't see Zaeed as being worse than ruthless Shepard.

[Labrev]

 For that matter, War Hero and Sole Survivor had people dying around them/being one of the only ones to live through the mission as well.

Also don't like the idea that he can't lead because he's selfish/only looks after himself when none of the other three can do their job if you haven't taken care of their loyalty business.

[phantomdragoness]

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As
for Jacob, it's only reasonable to assume a former marine who also has
experience as a black ops agent and head of security would be able to
properly coordinate a team.

Zaeed was once Alliance too.

True, but he's been surviving on his own for god knows how long now.

He's been part of larger operations like that one into the Krogan DMZ.

Most
of the assignments he was on ended with just him surviving. He might be
a goddamn good mercenary, but not exactly a great motivator or
coordinator.

We don't know anything about those
assignments other than they were high risk ones with heavy losses. I
don't see Zaeed as being worse than ruthless Shepard.

And he's not. He's just doing his job as he sees fit as Ruthless Shepard does. At least that's my interpretation for my Ruthless Shepard.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:54 .

[Skirata129]

I didn't hear about Zaeed being the sole survivor in more than 1 mission, and wasn't that one his first?