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[magelet]

Frostmourne86 wrote...

Does anyone see any parallels between Zaeed and Samara? Both have a mission that involves putting down someone that is not good by any stretch of the imagination, and yet both characters (Zaeed and Samara) are not lily white themselves - the decision to help Zaeed is Renegade and the one to kill Morinth is Paragon? Why?

I guess the difference is that Samara kills people on a principle of "good" versus "evil", While Zaeed is a merc who kills whoever's enemies are paying him more.  With Zaeed's quest, it is about getting revenge, as opposed to Samara's which is her trying to bring justice to a killer, while at the same time her trying to get redemption because she feels responsible for Morinth.

[Koji-san]

Have a very Zaeed Thanksgiving!

By

 wynndfae.deviantart.com/

[ODST 3]

I hated him at first, when he wanted to kill all the innocents at the refinery. I planned to kill him as soon as I had the chance but he was useful and hardworking for a mere merc and I figure he could be helpful in the war as well.

[VengefulTimor]

Jessie would be a cool be a DLC item I think.

[100k]

magelet wrote...

Frostmourne86 wrote...

Does anyone see any parallels between Zaeed and Samara? Both have a mission that involves putting down someone that is not good by any stretch of the imagination, and yet both characters (Zaeed and Samara) are not lily white themselves - the decision to help Zaeed is Renegade and the one to kill Morinth is Paragon? Why?

I guess the difference is that Samara kills people on a principle of "good" versus "evil", While Zaeed is a merc who kills whoever's enemies are paying him more.  With Zaeed's quest, it is about getting revenge, as opposed to Samara's which is her trying to bring justice to a killer, while at the same time her trying to get redemption because she feels responsible for Morinth.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume though that Zaeed is a "better" person. I doubt he'd go on a killing spree of innocents in the pursuit of an enemy. 

[CrutchCricket]

*post deleted. Sorry for the trouble*

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[Koji-san]

Welcome to the thread Crutch Cricket.

[Skirata129]

crutch cricket?

[foxtrotcharlie]

100k wrote...

magelet wrote...

Frostmourne86 wrote...

Does anyone see any parallels between Zaeed and Samara? Both have a mission that involves putting down someone that is not good by any stretch of the imagination, and yet both characters (Zaeed and Samara) are not lily white themselves - the decision to help Zaeed is Renegade and the one to kill Morinth is Paragon? Why?

I guess the difference is that Samara kills people on a principle of "good" versus "evil", While Zaeed is a merc who kills whoever's enemies are paying him more.  With Zaeed's quest, it is about getting revenge, as opposed to Samara's which is her trying to bring justice to a killer, while at the same time her trying to get redemption because she feels responsible for Morinth.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume though that Zaeed is a "better" person. I doubt he'd go on a killing spree of innocents in the pursuit of an enemy. 

Hmmm. I think I understand what you at getting at, you are confused as to what is 'morally considered' good and evil in lieu of the choices thrust upon Shepard in Zaeed and Samara's respective missions, and comparing the two...

Well, although they are both very devoted to what they do, I think the Zaeed and Samara morallistically are two very different animals completely.  Samara is wholefully devoted to her religion and follwing through with what her code states.  Zaeed, on the other hand, is a professional mercenary just trying to make a decent wage doing what he does best-- blowing s#@$ up. 

If you want to discuss who is a better moral agent, you'll have quite the debate on your hands.

For example, you cite that Samara is to kill several innocents to kill a wrongdoer. So was Zaeed, but for different reasons entirely.  It is their motivations more than their actions in this point which seperates them as people in general, and thus as moral agents.

I think therefore, as the loyalty missions between Zaeed and Samara are isolated incidents, it is easy to see them as similar, but as their motivations are so different, this must also be taken into account.

In my opinion, if you want to debate who is the better moral agent you will definately have to take into account the concept of alturism vs. self interest, Kantism vs. Utilitarianism, ect.  Basically, is it better to be selfish or giving? What if giving hurts more people than being selfish does? Complex stuff. 

Skirata129 wrote...
crutch cricket?

That was the guy above you, man. CrutchCricket. 

[foxtrotcharlie]

.....Oh I just realized there aren't enough badass mercs walking away from explosions on the page...



Problem solved.

Modifié par foxtrotcharlie, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:02 .

[Koji-san]

@ foxtrotcharlie:
Pictures of cool guys not looking at explosions is ALWAYs the solution to the problem!

[foxtrotcharlie]

Koji-san wrote...

@ foxtrotcharlie:
Pictures of cool guys not looking at explosions is ALWAYs the solution to the problem!

Must.Resist.But.Cant....

Obligatory Music video

Modifié par foxtrotcharlie, 30 novembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[magelet]

foxtrotcharlie wrote...
Hmmm. I think I understand what you at getting at, you are confused as to what is 'morally considered' good and evil in lieu of the choices thrust upon Shepard in Zaeed and Samara's respective missions, and comparing the two...

Well, although they are both very devoted to what they do, I think the Zaeed and Samara morallistically are two very different animals completely.  Samara is wholefully devoted to her religion and follwing through with what her code states.  Zaeed, on the other hand, is a professional mercenary just trying to make a decent wage doing what he does best-- blowing s#@$ up. 

If you want to discuss who is a better moral agent, you'll have quite the debate on your hands.

For example, you cite that Samara is to kill several innocents to kill a wrongdoer. So was Zaeed, but for different reasons entirely.  It is their motivations more than their actions in this point which seperates them as people in general, and thus as moral agents.

I think therefore, as the loyalty missions between Zaeed and Samara are isolated incidents, it is easy to see them as similar, but as their motivations are so different, this must also be taken into account.

In my opinion, if you want to debate who is the better moral agent you will definately have to take into account the concept of alturism vs. self interest, Kantism vs. Utilitarianism, ect.  Basically, is it better to be selfish or giving? What if giving hurts more people than being selfish does? Complex stuff.

I think saying who is morally better is too hard. I put "good and evil" in quotes in my other post for a reason, since Samara follows HER ideas of good and evil, and those govern her actions. Zaeed on the other hand, has no such principles. That's basically what I was getting at.

I agree that the loyalty missions are difficult to compare anyways, since they were so different in their motivations.  However, you could look into the self-interest bit, since both wanted to kill someone for their own reasons, but that death would also be for a greater good (Morinth was a killer, Vido was pretty corrupt and violent).

[Skirata129]

magelet wrote...

Zaeed on the other hand, has no such principles. That's basically what I was getting at.

So Zaeed is an Ubermensch?

[magelet]

Skirata129 wrote...

magelet wrote...

Zaeed on the other hand, has no such principles. That's basically what I was getting at.

So Zaeed is an Ubermensch?

Huh?

[Skirata129]

magelet wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

magelet wrote...

Zaeed on the other hand, has no such principles. That's basically what I was getting at.

So Zaeed is an Ubermensch?

Huh?

a super human. someone who has transcended contemporary morality.

[magelet]

No, I just meant that he didn't have a defined and strict code of morality like Samara does. The lines between good and evil are more blurred for him I suppose.

[Labrev]

Koji-san wrote...

Have a very Zaeed Thanksgiving!

*snip*

By

 wynndfae.deviantart.com/

Party at GMag's?

[Koji-san]

The fact that we're throwing around Nietzsche in the thread about a badd-ass merc makes me smile. I happen to believe he does have morals, as evidenced by Jack's LM and his comments about the treatment of children. Besides, at no other point in the game does he compromise the mission or jeopardize the crew. If you take him with you on the SM to fight the final Reaper, he is in fact the one that pulls Shep into the shuttle as it all goes to heck. Let Vido burn and judge Zaeed on his entire body....of work. :-P

[foxtrotcharlie]

Koji-san wrote...

The fact that we're throwing around Nietzsche in the thread about a badd-ass merc makes me smile. I happen to believe he does have morals, as evidenced by Jack's LM and his comments about the treatment of children. Besides, at no other point in the game does he compromise the mission or jeopardize the crew. If you take him with you on the SM to fight the final Reaper, he is in fact the one that pulls Shep into the shuttle as it all goes to heck. Let Vido burn and judge Zaeed on his entire body....of work. :-P

Lol, yeah I know, right?  In terms of Zaeed being an Ubermensch, I've studied Nietzsche, and truthfully I don't really believe in such a concept, as I believe it is very dangerous to believe in (as shown by those silly n.a.z.i.s. who partially used Nietzsche as inspiration for their platforms. Oh, n.a.z.i.s!) 



But, if it's any consulation, we can argue about 'whose better' all day, but if I was in a sticky situation, I would always choose Zaeed over Samara.  Which is obviously because of her code. I don't know about you guys, but the fact that Samara is willing to kill innocent people who are in her way in any situation, scares the living crap out of me. It is her uncompromising religiosity which is a great hinderance in any sort of group, (which is why the cops on Illium are understandably stressed to s@#t when she is at the station, and why Justicars only stay in Asari space.) 

Whereas, for Zaeed, as long as you got enough credits, he'll stick with me no matter what...... .....:DThanks buddy! (a part of me likes to think he'll help me out in ME3 without pay, lolz)

But yeah, 'morality-wise' I think that it is totally possible for Zaeed to be greater than Samara. As seen through the entire game, he is entirely capable of feeling compassion and of having morals, and therefore, the capacity for him to continue to grow as a moral agent (perhaps into a better one, though Shepard's influence) is definately there. Whereas Samara acts in a set of perscribed moral codes, which definately could always be debated, ethically, but the fact that she cannot doubt her choices, or choose otherwise, somehow lessens her free will, and thus she will never evolve to a higher understanding by interperating different choices.  

Modifié par foxtrotcharlie, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:30 .

[100k]

deleted

Modifié par 100k, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[100k]

foxtrotcharlie wrote...

Hmmm. I think I understand what you at getting at, you are confused as to what is 'morally considered' good and evil in lieu of the choices thrust upon Shepard in Zaeed and Samara's respective missions, and comparing the two...

Well, although they are both very devoted to what they do, I think the Zaeed and Samara morallistically are two very different animals completely.  Samara is wholefully devoted to her religion and follwing through with what her code states.  Zaeed, on the other hand, is a professional mercenary just trying to make a decent wage doing what he does best-- blowing s#@$ up.

I suppose that 's true.

If you want to discuss who is a better moral agent, you'll have quite the debate on your hands.

For example, you cite that Samara is to kill several innocents to kill a wrongdoer. So was Zaeed, but for different reasons entirely.  It is their motivations more than their actions in this point which seperates them as people in general, and thus as moral agents.

Here I disagree. Zaeed is willing to kill Vido > saving civilians. Samara is willing to kill innocents to stop Morinth. In the end, who is worse? Well. considering the power of "motivation", I'd say Samara is worse because in trying to save a few innocents (those that Morinth would eventually choose), she was willing to kill many innocents. This isn't like Arrival, where killing a few hundred thousand is saving trillions of lives. This is killing thousands to save hundreds of lives!

As Septimus in Mass Effect 1 asks "If the cure is worse than a disease, what's the point?"

Zaeed has no moral obligation (via religion) to save innocent people. In fact, most people in the world don't have any moral obligation to save others. Thats what makes a selfless act valuable: you're willing to inconvience yourself for the convinience of others.

On top of that, Samara's code is, in my opinion, injust. Its literally imposing asari culture on a diverse galaxy. I'm sure one of her sutras has a justification for this, but until I hear it, I'm not siding with her. What ultimately seperates her from Shepard or Zaeed? She doesn't get paid? So she just kills and kills for the sake of... of what? Killing? Idealism? The knowledge that her daughter killed a few thousand people? If she's attributing her code and its dark choices to Morinth's freedom, then she's only adding to Morinth's body count. 

Modifié par 100k, 04 décembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[foxtrotcharlie]

100k wrote..,
Here I disagree. Zaeed is willing to kill Vido > saving civilians. Samara is willing to kill innocents to stop Morinth. In the end, who is worse? Well. considering the power of "motivation", I'd say Samara is worse because in trying to save a few innocents (those that Morinth would eventually choose), she was willing to kill many innocents. This isn't like Arrival, where killing a few hundred thousand is saving trillions of lives. This is killing thousands to save hundreds of lives!

So she just kills and kills for the sake of... of what? Killing? Idealism? The knowledge that her daughter killed a few thousand people? If she's attributing her code and its dark choices to Morinth's freedom, then she's only adding to Morinth's body count. 

Lolz, you should read my newest post before this, as I qualify myself and agree a lot of what you say up here. 

But in terms of 'motivations,' I think I must still disagree with you.  As you write above, their motivations are vastly different, thus seperating them as significantly different moral agents (which I qualify with my own opinion of above *coughZaeedisbettercough*).  But upon looking simply at their loyalty missions, I believe they are unequal.
[*]If allowed, Zaeed kills many innocents to kill Vido, the leader of the Blue Suns, whose death is not for the deconstruction of the merc group, but for a personal vendetta.[*]Samara kills Morinth, her murderous daughter who has killed many innocents over the centuries, although she says she is following her code, it can also be called a personal vendetta.[/list]I think that it is plain to see that if seen simply through these two missions, Samara is the better of the two.  She does not kill innocents to achieve her goal, and in doing so, saves Morinth's future victims. 

But, like I mentioned earlier. You cannot judge someone on one episode in their lives--thus bringing in their 'motivations.' 

In your argument, I must also disagree with your interpretation of who is better in terms of these motivations.  You state that Samara is less because she is willing to kill regardless of the cost for the sake of one mass murderer.  But, this argument falls apart when comparing her to Zaeed.  Zaeed wanted to kill Vido because of revenge--not because he wanted to rescue those trapped oil workers, or because he wanted to dismantle the Blue Suns.  It was purely selfish.  Therefore, on those grounds, how can you argue that Zaeed was better by way of motivations?

In short, Samara's state as a higher moral agent is compromised through her code, and her inablility to interperate her own actions in another way besides what she is told.  Zaeed is not restricted by such, so he is, and has the ablility to rise as a higher moral agent through learning and evolving. 

<3
 

Modifié par foxtrotcharlie, 05 décembre 2011 - 12:20 .

[Koji-san]

Does it matter his reason so long as he took out the leader of a blood-thirsty gang who has more blood on their hands than anybody in the galaxy? What are the lives of the factory workers when compared to that?. Zaeed's a bloody hero regardless of his personal motivations.
Besides, Samara lacks emotion and depth. How many of you went to listen to her first after every mission? Or did you take the elevator straight down to the hold?
I personally only ever took Samara on one mission, and that was the SM and that was ONLY to achieve a perfect playthrough. Whereas Zaeed never left my Shep's side.

[Seboist]

Zaeed doesn't leave my femshep's side for the vast majority of the game. <3