9 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

Hi, I was just playing with my Skald character and had my whole party wiped out by a Symbol, Stun cast by a ridiculously high-level cleric (courtesy of the Kelsey mod - do NOT use Kelsey in a no-reload!)

Bye, bye, any hope of making this run a no-reload. At least it was a mod that got me and not a standard vanilla encounter!

But my question is, what are the counterspells and defenses against a spell as overpowering as Symbol, Stun?

I do have the "make Chaotic Commands protect against Stun" component installed, so I know that one possible defense would be to have CC on every party member, but this was an ambush upon map load! (Thanks a lot, Kelsey author.)

What other defenses do you guys know against this devastating condition? Power Word, Stun is bad enough, but Symbol, Stun has to be one of the most powerful spells in the game! They might as well call it "Mass Stun".

It's not that bad if you don't mind multiple reloading - I got around it on my first reload by getting the cleric to fail his save against a Silence 15' (One of the best spells in the game, BTW), and I also got off a well-placed Web, a Domination, and an Emotion:Hopeless.

But I hate reloading, because it just makes everything seem so phony. Either you're powerful enough and wise enough to beat your enemies consistently, or you're not.

And the ultimate no-reload, of course, is real life. I like my gaming worlds to be as much like it as possible for maximum immersion.

Any other ideas about protecting from Stun?

[Grond0]

I had a no-reload end when the whole of my party were stunned before I could react (in spellhold by a lich-summoned demon that teleported into the party from another room). I've now got the make free action protect against stun component from BG2 Fixpack active so if someone's wearing the ring of free action they will be safe.

[touch_of_the_void]

What spells protect against the Stun status is going to be install-dependent. For me Free Action protects against Stun.

You should also be able to use the level 3 cleric spell Remove Paralysis to remove Stun if characters are affected. So you don't necessarily have to have a Free Action (or Chaotic Commands, if it blocks Stun in your game) for every party member.

Also, Barbarian Rage and Enrage (the Berserker version) grant immunity to Stun.

For Symbol: Stun specifically you can avoid the effects with Spell Immunity: Conjuration or having 100% magic resistance. In an emergency a character could drink a Potion of Magical Shielding to guarantee the save is passed.

[Alesia_BH]

Symbol Stun can be a dangerous spell because of the -4 save penalty- especially early in the game when character saves are low. That said, there are a number of ways to counter it.

You mentioned Chaotic Commands: that does work. Spell Immunity: Conjuration is an option on the arcane side. Warriors may use Berseker/Barbarian Rage. Slayer change can do the job too post Spellhold.

You mentioned a tweak called:  "Chaotic Commands protects against Stun." Are you sure that it wasn't "Free ACtion protects against Stun?

In the original game, Free Action protected against Stun. But a few years ago, the G3 Fixpack community concluded this was an error and addressed it. Around the same time, they introduced "Free Action Protects Against Stun" to the Tweakpack. That may be what you were referring to.

If it is, then the spell Free Action will work- along with Potions of Freedom and all items that confer free action (Ring of Free Action, Ixil's Spike +6, etc).

Additional item based options include the Greenstone Amulet and the Sword of Avoreen.

The other avenues would be: 100% Magic Resistance and highly negative saves. Both can be achieved relatively early in the adventure through combined item, potion and spell use. There are many, many options here of course.


Personally, I make a point of getting Potions of Freedom, Clarity, and Magic Shielding as early in the game as possible- irrespective of the class I'm playing. That's a higher priority than weapons, armor, and such to my mind. Disabling effect protection strategies diverge from there based on class and kit.

Good luck avoiding Stun Belgarath!

A.

Edit: I hadn't seen ToV and Grond0's responses when I composed this. I can see now that they covered much of this ground already. Apologies for the redundancies...

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 juin 2011 - 08:59 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks for the quick replies.

In the very unlucky case I described, the Symbol, Stun got ALL SIX party members!

However, in a slightly less unlucky case, I have found that Remove Paralysis is next to useless, because the incapacitated party member will usually be dead before the spell, which has a very long casting time, can be cast; especially since the cleric was likely busy doing something else the round before and will have to wait until a new round starts to even begin the casting!

Also, the trouble with the Free Action spell is that it has a very short duration, so you would need foreknowledge in real life that you were about to face a monster or a caster with hold or stun powers.

That ring sounds like exactly what is needed, and of course, the sword that gives Free Action in BG1. Where do you get a Ring of Free Action in BG2?

Also, the first Kelsey mod encounter happens very early in BG2, during a map entry in which you have no way to predict that it's about to happen.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I meant "Free Action protects against Stun". Thanks for the correction! Does Chaotic Commands also work? - oh, never mind, I see that you all say that it does. This thread is getting responded to so rapidly, I can't keep up. Almost like an old-style chatroom today!

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 26 juin 2011 - 09:06 .

[Alesia_BH]

BelgarathMTH wrote...
That ring sounds like exactly what is needed, and of course, the sword that gives Free Action in BG1. Where do you get a Ring of Free Action in BG2?

Spellhold. You get it from the Monster Summoning Tome.

Also, the first Kelsey mod encounter happens very early in BG2, during a map entry in which you have no way to predict that it's about to happen.

There is a Potion of Freedom for a few hundred gold at Ribald's. With the G3 Tweak, that will work. If you put it in Aerie's Quick Slot, and had her drink it ASAP- while having Remove Paralysis in her book, you could evade Symbol Stun before leaving the Promenade. Round1: Aerie-Gulp!, Round 2: Aerie- Remove Paralysis.


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 juin 2011 - 09:10 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Alesia, hmm, interesting. It sounds like that, in order to be foolproofed against surprise stun attacks, you need to have some potions of Freedom in your inventory as soon as you can get them. Then, if you get ambushed by any enemy party with clerics or mages, you have your main character or your cleric drink one immediately.

The only problem with that vis a vis real life would be that potions of Freedom are very rare and hard to get. Perhaps a good game-balancing idea would be to make them more readily available, at least with a high gold cost.

Also, clerics with access to 7th level spells ought to be really rare, and not hiring themselves out to simple bounty hunters. That is a problem with the Kelsey mod writer that I would love to take up with him or her. It makes the two programmed battles reek of phoniness!

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 26 juin 2011 - 11:57 .

[Alesia_BH]

There are two distinguishable but interelated issues here: the game play mechanics and the role playing considerations associated with applicable tactics.

In terms of gameplay mechanics, it's entirely possible to get through the entire Trilogy without letting your PC roll to save against Stun or any other disabling effect for that matter. In my Bounty Hunter's current Trilogy No Reload run, she has rolled to save exactly once. She is now in Sendai's Enclave. I considered that roll-to-save which occured against Drasus in BG1 to be a major lapse: my PC should not roll to save. Ever. This can be achieved in a wide variety of ways- often by pausing each time a spell is cast, and consuming the appropriate potion before it takes effect.

So for example, in the case of Symbol Stun one wouldn't need to quaff Potions of Freedom each time a Mage or Cleric is encountered but, rather, keep a potion set at the ready, and consume on an as needed basis. If Symbol Stun is en route, Potion of Freedom. If it's Symbol Stun and you are out of Potions of Freedom, Potion of Magic Shielding. Later in the adventure, you have the Ring of Free Action. There are additional alternatives, but you get the idea.


Now, from a role playing viewpoint, this may seem implausible: how could my character know that she is going to encounter a mage and pre-buff with potions? Or how could she recognize spells and then know which potion to drink? Obviously, the feasibility of these courses of action would depend on the character's abilities and personality. I can't comment on all possible PCs so I'll just talk about my  Bounty Hunter.

On creation, I give my Bounty Hunter a Strength of 15 and an Intelligence of 18- often Tomed to 19 in Baldur's Gate. The point is that she is smart -very smart, genius smart. And in DnD Lore, Bounty Hunters are talented alchemist. I role play her as a moderately addictive personality who is obsessed with potions, items, and arcane lore.

For this PC, it makes sense that she might stealth into an encounter, do some recon, and pre-Buff with potions (Would a Bounty Hunter do otherwise?). Or, in the alternative, she might recognize the spell Confusion, for example, and know to gulp her Potion of Clarity (remember she is a genius who grew up in a library as well as an alchemist). With other PCs, it might make less sense. It depends on the character.

An interesting implication here is that in No Reload Role Play the personality of your character may be tactically relevant. And why shouldn't it be? It's relevant in life as well.


Anyhoo. I hope you find an approach that works for your PC. Best of luck!


A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 27 juin 2011 - 03:04 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Alesia, thanks, that's a very thoughtful response.

How do you know what spells are being cast? Is it showing up in your actions window at the bottom of the screen, something like "Evilpriesta casts Symbol, Stun"?

I think I must have that turned off in my feedback options, either that, or I'm not paying enough attention down there. I tend to just hold my breath and start attacking spells in progress with everything I've got (Magic Missiles, Silence, Web, arrows, melee fighters), which usually works, but occasionally ends in disaster, as I described above.

Do you keep all those feedback options turned on and keep reading everything it says? Maybe I should try that.

[Alesia_BH]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

How do you know what spells are being cast? Is it showing up in your actions window at the bottom of the screen, something like "Evilpriesta casts Symbol, Stun"?

Exactly.

Do you keep all those feedback options turned on and keep reading everything it says?

Yup.

Maybe I should try that.

It's worth a try. And it needn't detract from realism- assuming you can reasonably credit your character with the ability to recognize spells based on the incantation.


Best,

A.