20 réponses à ce sujet

[jareklajkosz]

In Origins, when Duncan first spoke about the Joining, it sounded very ominous, and all the events leading up to the actual Joining gave the impression that it was something very morbid, that there was, indeed, a reason that it was kept secret - epitomized with Daveth dying what looked like an excruciating death and Ser Jory refusing to even go through with it.

I didn't like this attitude in Awakening that recruiting Grey Wardens is something that could be done on a Sunday afternoon after teatime, as senechal Varel calls it, simply "replenishing your numbers" and "needing to rectify there being only one Warden in all of Ferelden (which is obviously not true to begin with..). The Joining itself was ridiculous, with Ohgren complaining about the size of the cup, then actually belching and essentially laughing off having just drank darkspawn blood, and while I did think it was funny, it totally destroyed the mood that was set in Origins about the Joining. Any dramatic tension that was supposed to be caused by Mhairi's death was destroyed because of this (and that dramatic tension was weak to begin with.. unlike Daveth, Mhairi actually went into this seemingly knowing what it would entail, whereas with Daveth, he was an unfortunate victim of a grim ritual of which he had no idea about until the last second).

I don't mind Awakening being more light hearted than Origins - afterall, the biggest threat, the Archdemon is dead, and at least until this point, what is happening so far isn't meant to be as big a threat, and the characters acknowledge it as such when Alistair calls it the last vestiges of the Blight. I don't even mind the Joining itself being more light hearted, nor do I truly mind Varel's attitude towards it, really - the Archdemon is dead, there is presumably a much lighter incursion of darkspawn to deal with and thus, everyone can essentially relax, for the moment, at least moreso than they could with a Blight rampaging across Ferelden. Hell, I don't even mind Mhairi's knowledge of what the Joining entailed (assuming she did, indeed, know).. there is a new regime in the Wardein heirarchy in Ferelden, and they don't necessarily have to follow the beliefs of secrecy of the previous ones. What bothered me was the Joining itself essentially being made a mockery of itself. Ohgren treats it like a joke, and it was very, very difficult to feel sorry for Mhairi or even feel like it was such a serious thing.

In Origins, I can say that I was pretty shocked about Daveth's death in the Joining and Duncan killing Ser Jory, It really slammed home the point that the Joining isn't to be taken lightly and the people administering it really need to make sure that the people they choose to go through with it can indeed have the chance ot survive it (although it's not 100% certain, no matter what, I assume). It really slammed home the point that there is a really good reason why the Joining is a secret, and highlights the very high price someone must pay to become a Grey Warden. I really think it was a mistake to essentially shove all these things aside in Awakening, the Joining should always have been a serious matter, even if in not so serious a time. Just my two cents, thanks for reading.

[Ambervikings92]

I don't disagree with what you said, however I think (maybe) it could just be a difference of styles also, duncan did things his way, and perhaps you and your group can do things your way

[yaw]

I agree COMPLETELY.

It was the thing I most disliked in Awakenings. It just felt uncomfortable conscripting so many people, so fast, and so... carelessly? And it just felt plain wrong with Oghren. I turned him down at first, then was forced to take him because I needed a tank.

It definitely was a mistake.

[jareklajkosz]

Ambervikings92 wrote...

I don't disagree with what you said, however I think (maybe) it could just be a difference of styles also, duncan did things his way, and perhaps you and your group can do things your way

I don't disagree at all.. but I do think the way the initial Joining in Awakening was handled was a bit insulting to the serious nature of it as presented in Origins. However, we only ever saw one Joining in Origins, and learned of one other.. and Duncan did seem like a very serious man, and moreover, it was a very trying time where the Wardens weren't exactly made to feel welcome during a critical stage in a Blight. I suppose all that would have contributed just as much to the tension.

For all we know, in the Anderfels, they may drink darkspawn blood in place of wine during dinner. I guess it's just a culture thing, so maybe I shouldn't be too hard on it.. but I do think the Ohgren scene was very excessive.. they tried way too hard to make it funny, it didn't work for me (like I said, I chuckled, but my feelings I've posted here are stronger than the fleeting moment of laughter).

[Addai]

I think the biggest problem is that the secrecy of the Joining is stressed so much in Origins, yet Varel is not a Warden himself and it's he who administers the Joining.

[jareklajkosz]

Addai67 wrote...

I think the biggest problem is that the secrecy of the Joining is stressed so much in Origins, yet Varel is not a Warden himself and it's he who administers the Joining.

That can probably be chalked up to cultural differences between the current Warden Commander and Duncan. However, Duncan alluded to the Joining always being kept secret.. as did Riordan. It really is quite strange.

[Ambervikings92]

right because the thing is, because we got used to the joining in origins we are putting more weight on it, had awakenings come out first then origins would be be saying things reverse?

[jareklajkosz]

Ambervikings92 wrote...

right because the thing is, because we got used to the joining in origins we are putting more weight on it, had awakenings come out first then origins would be be saying things reverse?

If Awakening came out first, setting aside that it wouldn't make much sense to us since a lot of things would have been unexplained at the time, it is quite likely that we would be wondering why the Joining is such a big deal in Origins, when it was talked about and executed so casually in Awakening.

[MKDAWUSS]

I think it was significantly watered down in Awakening simply because of the fact that it would get both tedious and repetitive. Would you want to sit there and tell each candidate that the Joining is super-secret and have them acquire darkspawn blood and then recite the little prayer-like thingy? Probably not.

And yeah, I agree, Varel handling the Joining despite not being a Warden is a bit awkward, especially when you also take into account Woolsey's comments about why she's there.

[Vahir]

I found much in Awakening (mostly the beginning) to be very stiff. Maybe it's because you are an experienced warden, yet you have to be tutored into everything like you are six years old.

[jareklajkosz]

Vahir wrote...

I found much in Awakening (mostly the beginning) to be very stiff. Maybe it's because you are an experienced warden, yet you have to be tutored into everything like you are six years old.

It kind of makes sense if you are a Dalish Elf, a mage, an elf from the alienage, etc.. basically, any origin that doesn't have experience or knowledge of governing. Even for the human noble, knowing how to govern the land might be very different from just watching your parents do it (haven't played dwarf noble yet, so can't comment on that). Amaranthine is also foreign territory for ANY of the origins. Is this what you're referring to?

[Xavier St. Cloud]

Re: SECRECY, I think a few non-Wardens may be privy to the cost of the Joining. In ORIGINS, Duncan mentioned that the mages had been preparing for the gang's Joining. Perhaps he was referring to mage Wardens but Varel wasn't in the service to another party... he was in direct service to the Wardens and in charge of their headquarters. It kind of makes sense since the Warden and Alistair/Loghain are the only other Fereldens of note in the order. Why they didn't roll the dice with Varel is uncertain but it speaks well of him to be so trusted even without having taken the Joining himself.

[Arthur Cousland]

In Origins, time is of the essence, and they are in a hurry to recruit what wardens they can. In Awakening, they're less in a rush, and the joining is no longer secret. Also, with Duncan dying so early in Origins, there is no one to do the joining until you meet Riordan. In Awakening, your warden, the Warden Commander, is basically Duncan's successor and since you have a base of operations (Vigil's Keep), and there is no blight, you can go about the joining more aggressively. You're not just looking for companions to help you with your quest, but you are looking for warden recruits, and so all of your allies can (potentially) become wardens. In Origins, Duncan isn't around to do the joining with any of your companions post-Ostagar.

[Quill74Pen]

I wasn't the least bit surprised by Oghren's reaction to the Joining.

That's simply his personality — he uses a less-than-serious attitude as a shield to guard his true feelings. In other words, he's serious about the Joining, yes, but he's so used to being less than serious when facing dire situations that it came naturally to him even during the Joining. He used that technique in DAO, so it's not surprising that it continues in DAA.

As for Varel and Woolsey, well, both of them are employed by the Grey Wardens, and are entrusted with positions of real authority within the organization. So, again, I'm not surprised that they're aware of just what the Joining ritual entails.

Quill74Pen

[LazyDaisy]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

In Origins, time is of the essence, and they are in a hurry to recruit what wardens they can. In Awakening, they're less in a rush, and the joining is no longer secret. Also, with Duncan dying so early in Origins, there is no one to do the joining until you meet Riordan. In Awakening, your warden, the Warden Commander, is basically Duncan's successor and since you have a base of operations (Vigil's Keep), and there is no blight, you can go about the joining more aggressively. You're not just looking for companions to help you with your quest, but you are looking for warden recruits, and so all of your allies can (potentially) become wardens. In Origins, Duncan isn't around to do the joining with any of your companions post-Ostagar.

I am not sure I follow.  In Origins, even though they were in a hurry, Duncan still chose his potential recruits with care.  Why would the end of the blight decrease the need to carefully choose possible Wardens?  With the blight ended, a base of operations secured, and new commander why would the Wardens recruit more aggressively (and possibly with greater loss of life) than when facing the imminent threat of the archdemon.  If anything, I believe they would slow down and be even more cautious than before.  The joining can kill someone so why increase the rate (speed) of recruitment if you don't have to? As to the secrecy of the joining - yes, it holds merit that trusted non-wardens could know the procedure but I see know reason to believe that the secrecy outside the wardens and their trusted sources would disappear.  I agree with the first post and wish that the joining in Awakenings was a little more ... I don't know ... respectful of the potential loss of life and the sacrifice that the successful recruits are making for the remainder of their foreshortened life.   Ohgren ? ... well he's just Ohgren. 

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Good points. One thing to consider is that, by the time things get started in Awakenings, a lot more people know about the Joining. Even at the end of Origins, Zevran explains that he doesn't want to join because "their are some bodily fluids that even I won't touch". Oghren says "I'll gargle and spit", indicating that he already knew. Plus, I think that the PC is less militant about it, and gives people more of a choice in the matter (except for Nathaniel maybe).

[LazyDaisy]

Hadn't thought about that Sir Pounce. Okay. So our PC and the other remaining Ferelden warden / king were obviously a bit slack in their secret keeping duties but still, those that knew were either wardens, warden companions, or rulers (thinking of Anora here). Still a pretty closed group. What bugs me about that is that EVERYONE seems to know. Though I, as the PC, didn't like being uninformed about the consequences ... oh ... oh ... alright ... starting to see your point through the haze. Maybe the PC would relax that rule in order to ensure full disclosure and that anyone joining knows the complete risks. Still, its a big jump to make even if I agree with it. And if they knew about the consequences and the procedure it seems even more important that the ceremony and ritual of the joining should be upheld to honour the sacrifice knowingly made. Like the Legion of the Dead and their 'funeral'.

[Arthur Cousland]

They are looking to build the warden numbers. While they supposedly try to recruit "with care", I don't see how they can tell who will be able to survive drinking the darkspawn blood and who can't. If the warden population was higher, then I'm sure they'd pick and choose better. When Duncan was alive, there were more than 2 wardens in all of Ferelden, and so he could afford to be picky.

[goofyomnivore]

I was more upset at Anora knowing the Ritual is fatal at the Landsmeet. How could she know? Oghren made Awakening horrible though, took a some what tolerable character in DA:O and butchered him along with anything he touched.

[Addai]

@strive, I stared at your avatar for five minutes.

[Arthur Cousland]

It's possible Loghain knew, and told Anora at some point about the joining being fatal. Too bad he didn't know exactly why they were needed to slay the archdemon.

With Oghren, I had less issue with his joining and the fact that he abandoned Felsi+baby and then flirted non stop with Sigrun, all while constantly thinking about Branka. He's one conflicted dwarf.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 28 juin 2011 - 11:27 .