146 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Memmahkth wrote...

I have to agree with hwf and arcian. From all the dialogue in the game, I have to conclude that the reaper would not be completed unless the collectors were going to target Earth. And given that the collector vessel left horizon once the guardian turrets were activated, I do not see the collectors dominating Earth.

OK, what dialogue?

We only get from EDI they would probably need milions to complete the Reaper.

Thinking that they'll attack Earth only do to squadmates with no indication but seeing a lot of pods that does not look there's enough for 1 major city, let alone 11 billion people, is just ridiculous.

The point of the plague, I do not exactly know. It could simply have been to stir up mistrust about humans, or it could have been to establish the vorcha as new "accomplices". It could have also been used to "weed out" the other races and leave only humans, to be harvested as well as isolated. All of these assumptions are not mutually exclusive either.

You know who can be blamed for that?
Cerberus.

Easy scapegoat.

The video was a pretty good recap, but got a lot of things wrong about the motivations or "plan A and plan B". I also feel that the point of ME2 was not to "stop the reapers" and neither was the first game. It's the point of the whole series.

lolwut?

Point of the trilogy is to stop the Reapers( which is true) but was not in first 2 games?

Aha...

The events in ME delayed the reapers. The events in ME2 seem more about finding out why human colonies are being hit.We find out that reapers are involved, and in fact, they control the collectors who are responsible. We also find out why they've been abducting human colonies, which is to construct a human reaper. Why a human reaper? That was not discussed in the game and is open to interpretation and theory. Why were they making a reaper? Again, who knows, that was not covered.

Well, here's the most logical theory for that.
Watched my video in OP.

So is this all just filler? I say no. Just because the events of ME2 do not stop the reapers from reaching our galaxy does not mean it's not a setback for the reapers. Without the collectors around and their technology, it can be a lot more difficult for the reapers.

Destroying Human Reaper is meaningless if it wasn't new vanguard to replace Sovereign.

Hold on you say, the reapers made the collectors so they have their tech. What I'm saying is that without the collectors around to wielding the tech, it's essentially lost. Sure the reapers have the knowledge to make new collectors and the collector tech, however they cannot raise an army that quickly.

Cerberus.
Let them keep the base.

Reapers didn't lose much. They can always start again with Human Reaper. They have Earth now.

EDI talks about the extensive reworking of the prothean genome. So now the collectors lose their ability to "disable" vast areas (colonies) at once for "collection". Sure, the reapers can destroy entire civilizations and planets through bombardment, but why? Why bother?

With exception of reproduction, well they need resources and energy.
Completely destroyed planet is not helpful.

It would seem, from the events in the second game, that the reapers "reproduce" by collecting species and processing them. Destroying that processing plant (the collector base and the collectors themselves) would put a severe hamper in the reaper's plans and thus delay them even more. How does that help to stop the reapers? It's guerrilla tactics.

"Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare and refers to conflicts in which a small group of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") use military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately."

That hurts them in reproduction, not in Reaping galaxy.
Not helpful since they can just build it again when they Reap the galaxy.

Also that's only if you destroy the base.
You do know we can keep it, right?

Also, stop using that screen grab of the sun, saying that it looks pretty sunny. First of all, you're being too literal, as someone has already pointed out. Secondly, you're assuming that all the reapers have arrived in that screen capture. Which you cannot prove. All you can prove is that 3 reapers have landed since that's all you see in that screen capture.

I was more joking with that since a lot of people took Sovereign words to literal. And saying for Earth being Collectors target as well with no indication but that line from squadmates it just equally ridiculous.

[CroGamer002]

hwf wrote...

My question was about the existance of a plan B. The plan A and C that you mention in your video I definately agree with - it's just the "second Sovereign" theory I'm questioning.
I'm thinking they just started assembling the first new Reaper - without any special purpose/reason other then to build a new type of Reaper from a new and freshly harvested organic component.

Why?
Why do it now?
And where did you get it's new version of Reaper?

Precisely, they have completely dominated Earth's defenses both aerospace naval and surface to aerspace, it would've been safe now for the Collector Ship to land in and fully paralyze a major city and just collect the people there to be processed. Shepard however, removed the Collectors from the board.

1 Collectors ship versus over 200 Alliance ships, unknown amount of Earth nations ships, fighters, gunships, armies and tanks.

Also that thing get's destroyed in only few shots from Normandy( upgraded or not).
They won't stand a chance.

And that's only if they could get directly to Earth.

Exactly, that Collector vessel couldn't do anything except cull some outlying undefended colonies. The instant any defenses were present and active, like on Horizon, it had to retreat.
That's why I'm arguing that the Collectors couldn't really gather enough humans to make a new Reaper at all. Not until the Reaper Armada entered the galaxy and removed those defenses you mention.

Where's your proof they can't get enough from Terminus System's?

EDI says they need millions to get more.

I really don't see how can you put trust( which Legion and Grunt don't say) over that dumb line over advanced A.I.

Yes, I'm saying Shepard bought some time in slowing down Reaper production. He removed the Collectors and destroyed or sabotaged the Collector facility that was the production facility of new Reapers.
And it doesn't stop Reapers at all from reaping the galaxy, it just delays them.
If anything, it stops the Reapers from using the Collectors for turning Humans into slurry the instant Earth has been conquered.

There's like legion of Reapers out there.
1 less from start doesn't make much of a difference.

And how does it delay Reapers to reap the galaxy, if they are traveling to Alpha Relay since end of ME1?

The Illusive Man probably wouldn't put it like that.

The Reapers have targeted Humans for processing into a new Reaper, we get to know that during ME2. They're already in the process of processing hundreds of thousands of people from Horizon and other minor colonies.
My theory is that if the Reapers locked down Earth with the Collectors and their base still in existance they'd be cleaning out Earth in just a couple of weeks if not months; since they could collect us faster and immediately process us into slurry.

All the trouble to create one Reaper sooner?

Reapers are patient, why would they rush to create a new Reaper just for the sake of creating one while they have galaxy to reap?

It makes no sense.

Essentially I'm saying it doesn't need to be as complex as the "Plan B" theory; a new Reaper to open the Citadel Relay.
The Reapers just started assembly of new Reapers a bit ahead of their arrival, with no other purpose to it.

In other words, ME2 main plot doesn't have any real purpose with that idea.

[CroGamer002]

Arcian wrote...

Listen, we've already had this discussion before, and I see I'm getting the same one-sided answers as I did back then. You've obviously already made up your mind and decided to ignore every piece of evidence to the contrary, so I won't bother trying to convince you otherwise. Besides, quoting every point is a f***ing pain in the ass, and I really have better things to do than trying to counter your one-sided arguments.

Good day.

Let me sum up opposition of Plan B theory:

• Don't like the idea for repeating same plan
• Races can not make cryo chambers, for some reason
• Silly line in Collector ship mission indicates Collectors planned attack on Earth
• Harbinger sounds like a mad scientist pre-Arrival( in other thread)
• Developers might change canon timeline, for some reason

I really don't see how those dismiss Plan B theory.

Well I guess we'll have to wait for Bioware to confirm timeline

[Thrombin]

Right, I’m home now with access to the quote button 

Firstly, let me just say, I loved the video. It was very well done and a lot of the ideas were thought provoking and good thinking.

Needless to say, I didn’t agree with all of it.

I get the feeling that you prefer your theory primarily because you can’t stand the idea that ME2 was just filler. You need it to be about delaying the Reaper’s plot or else ME2 loses its impact.

I don’t care about that so my priorities are different. I can’t get my head around the idea of accepting that Bioware would allow the player to alter the timeline of a plot point if that timeline is critical to making sense of the plot.

Your theory doesn’t work with Arrival before the SM and I don’t see any overriding reason why Bioware needed to put it there. There are plenty of other missions and dlc that people could have run after the SM to get use out of upgrades if people are worried about such things. Just because the developers have established a canon timeline of Arrival after the SM doesn’t mean they would sacrifice a credible story line by allowing players to play a story where the timeline makes no sense.  

Even if I were prepared to accept that, I don’t see any need to as long as my own theory is at least as viable as yours.

Now, personally I thought Arcian and Hwf have made some excellent posts which I entirely agree with but I also need to address some of your specific responses to my earlier posts.

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...
[quote]Thrombin wrote...
You don't have to go there to be spotted by telescopes or other astronomical measuring devices. I don't think it would even count as darkspace unless it were well beyond the rim.[/quote]

Black ships in darkness can be visible by telescopes?[/quote]

Like I said earlier, a black ship can still blot out the light from another galaxy. If it’s close to the galactic rim it will block the view of other galaxies to people observing near that rim. Meanwhilst other people elsewhere in
the galaxy won’t have a blocked view. Comparing the differences will allow deduction of some obstruction.  The
further out the reapers are the less of an obstruction they become.I’m not arguing that they couldn’t be closer or that they couldn’t be so fast as to be far out and still only be months away but I’m arguing that my theory that they could be years away is a viable theory.

[quote][quote]The point is, I don't think it makes sense to be sitting within months of the Galaxy and just sit there for two years. It makes far more sense that they are years away from the Galaxy (if the Citadel Relay doesn't
work) and, therefore, have to take years to get here.[/quote]

Did you payed attention what was said in that video?

Reapers need secrecy so that their plans to Reap galaxy every 50 000 years to be successful. That's why they don't attack directly until end of ME2.[/quote]

I did watch the whole video but I still don’t get what you’re saying here. How is it more secret, after the secret is out, to sit around for two years while your minions abduct humans, then launch an attack on the Citadel with the human reaper. As opposed to just launching the attack with the reapers they already have straight away? The secret’s only necessary to stop the galaxy preparing a defence before the reapers are ready to reap. The reapers are already ready to reap so they don’t need to be so secret any more (as evidenced by Sovereign’s attack on the Citadel which was hardly secret!)

[quote][quote]]The fact that Arrival can happen before the SM is just more evidence to support this scenario as they wouldn't have bothered travelling to the Alpha relay if the idea was to send the human reaper to open the Citadel relay. It just tips their hand prematurely.[/quote]

I already proved that Casey Hudson said ME3 starts 2 months Arrival and Jessie Houston said ME3 start 6-12 months after end of ME2.

Also Kenson was mentioned in January 2186 on CDN while ME3 News Report trailer says ME3 starts in 6th June.[/quote]

You proved that the canon timeline is Arrival after SM but we already have proof from the game that Arrival can optionally be played before the SM. Any theory which doesn’t allow for that is not as good, in my opinion, as a
theory that does.

[quote][quote]It makes perfect sense that they got here as soon as they could and that the human reaper was for reasons as yet unknown and nothing to do with their invasion plans.[/quote]

1st how does it makes sense to be years from galaxy instead of months?

2nd that would make ME2 main plot just a filler.
[/quote]

1st because, the further out they are the less chance of being detected they are and because I can’t see any reason why they’d need to wait around for two years if they had the ability to invade straight away.

2nd I enjoyed ME2. I don’t care if it’s filler and until we know what the human reaper was for we don’t know that it was filler. 
 
[quote]Mesina2 wrote...
[quote]Thrombin wrote...
I get that you 'proved' that the canon timeline for Arrival was after the SM but the fact you can optionally play Arrival before the SM is a major pothole using your theory. Why develop a theory which allows for a major pothole when
there's a perfectly good one that doesn't?[/quote]

So developers saying Arrival happens after Suicide Mission is plothole since you can play it before? OK then doing any recruitment missions after Suicide Mission is plot hole as well. Especially since they act like it happen before SM.[/quote]

I didn’t say developers saying it happens after the Suicide Mission is a plot hole. I said it’s a plot hole if it doesn’t happen after the SM.  

I hadn’t considered the recruitment missions, I’m not even sure that the dialogue in them refers to the SM so I don’t know to what extent they might not work but they are not major plot points and the principle is different anyway. Recruitment missions are something that may need to be taken away after the SM in order to make sense while Arrival is something that could just be delayed until after the SM to make sense. They already delay Arrival until after Horizon so they have no problem delaying the  dlc. I can understand why they’d not want to
take missions away from people who haven’t played them yet but I don’t understand why they couldn’t delay the Arrival dlc until a plot appropriate time.

[quote][quote]
Also, if the human reaper was being built to spearhead an assault on the Citadel why is it better to wait 2 years to build it rather than just take 2 months to send an existing reaper (or fleet of reapers) to attack the Citadel instead? I don't see what they gain other than an increased chance to tip people off with all the abductions.[/quote]

I think Batarians will notice giant ship going pass their colony and using Alpha Relay.[/quote]

But the relays are instantaneous travel. Who cares if the Batarians see something. The galaxy will have only seconds before the Reapers are bearing down on the Citadel. Besides, how will the human reaper get from the Omega 4 relay to the main relay in Omega’s system and thence to the Citadel without being spotted? Same issue.

Regards

Julian

Modifié par Thrombin, 28 juin 2011 - 08:18 .

[Rahmiel]

Silly line in Collector ship? So... what's the difference between that line, and where EDI says "millions". Perhaps the collector ship line isn't silly, but EDI's lines are? You're drawing conclusions from established facts (which is fine) but completely dismissing other people's conclusions drawn from same, or in combination with other facts in the game.

I do not see how you can dismiss the line on the collector ship but take other lines as fact. Should take them all as fact. The Collectors were not going to finish the human reaper without striking Earth. That is fact that a bunch of people in this thread are pointing out to you, evidenced by that line from the DCS mission. Whether or not the collectors would have hit Earth before, or in concert with the Reaper's arrival is all speculation.

As someone else pointed out, the Collector vessel was not strong enough to withstand a beating from the defenses on Horizon, so in all likelihood it would not be striking at Earth alone. Again, this is speculation on our part but it stands to reason. Perhaps they had other plans for weakening the Alliance before striking Earth, but that was not covered in the game and so to speculate they would weaken the Alliance, then strike Earth, to create a human reaper as the new vanguard to bring back the return of the reapers is a far bigger stretch than what others have proposed.

Again, all of it speculation.. but don't go chasing zebras, that's best left to Dr. Gregory House.

[SpiffySquee]

Memmahkth wrote...

Silly line in Collector ship? So... what's the difference between that line, and where EDI says "millions". Perhaps the collector ship line isn't silly, but EDI's lines are? You're drawing conclusions from established facts (which is fine) but completely dismissing other people's conclusions drawn from same, or in combination with other facts in the game.

I do not see how you can dismiss the line on the collector ship but take other lines as fact. Should take them all as fact. The Collectors were not going to finish the human reaper without striking Earth. That is fact that a bunch of people in this thread are pointing out to you, evidenced by that line from the DCS mission. Whether or not the collectors would have hit Earth before, or in concert with the Reaper's arrival is all speculation.

As someone else pointed out, the Collector vessel was not strong enough to withstand a beating from the defenses on Horizon, so in all likelihood it would not be striking at Earth alone. Again, this is speculation on our part but it stands to reason. Perhaps they had other plans for weakening the Alliance before striking Earth, but that was not covered in the game and so to speculate they would weaken the Alliance, then strike Earth, to create a human reaper as the new vanguard to bring back the return of the reapers is a far bigger stretch than what others have proposed.

Again, all of it speculation.. but don't go chasing zebras, that's best left to Dr. Gregory House.

What? How are what EDI said and what was said on the Collector ship even in the same ball park? One was a calculated guess from a super computer that had access to collector files and basic math (i.e. how much goo a human makes and how much a large object like that might take) The other is the simple musing of a team mate. There is no reason to beleive they would attack earth just because they have so many pods. That ship could be 50,000 years old. Just because it was built big enough too take earth, does not mean that is their goal. Show me one piece of evidence other than an off hand guess by a team mate that shows they planned to target earth. For all we know they could get every human they need just from the terminus system. Why in the world should we take a simple guess as gospel truth?

How do you know they can't complete the reaper without attacking earth? Where was that ever said?

Yes, EDI was making a guess as well, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but she is a super computer with access to their files. I think we can trust she is at least in the ball park.

[Rulid]

good job!

dropped in to support

[CroGamer002]

Thrombin wrote...


Like I said earlier, a black ship can still blot out the light from another galaxy. If it’s close to the galactic rim it will block the view of other galaxies to people observing near that rim. Meanwhilst other people elsewhere in
the galaxy won’t have a blocked view. Comparing the differences will allow deduction of some obstruction.  The
further out the reapers are the less of an obstruction they become.I’m not arguing that they couldn’t be closer or that they couldn’t be so fast as to be far out and still only be months away but I’m arguing that my theory that they could be years away is a viable theory.

It is viable theory, just it's not negating this theory either.

I never said how far away they are, just how long it took them to take.

I did watch the whole video but I still don’t get what you’re saying here. How is it more secret, after the secret is out, to sit around for two years while your minions abduct humans, then launch an attack on the Citadel with the human reaper. As opposed to just launching the attack with the reapers they already have straight away? The secret’s only necessary to stop the galaxy preparing a defence before the reapers are ready to reap. The reapers are already ready to reap so they don’t need to be so secret any more (as evidenced by Sovereign’s attack on the Citadel which was hardly secret!)

Did you played ME2?

Only Shepard and Cerberus are only one doing any defense against Reapers.
Council and Alliance are doing nothing with that and dismiss any Reaper claim as conspiracy theory nonsense.

Yeah, Reapers are still a secret for majority of galaxy.

You proved that the canon timeline is Arrival after SM but we already have proof from the game that Arrival can optionally be played before the SM. Any theory which doesn’t allow for that is not as good, in my opinion, as a
theory that does.

Developer comments about that and trailer came much after Arrival.

Why would they say that if Arrival can happen at any time?

1st because, the further out they are the less chance of being detected they are and because I can’t see any reason why they’d need to wait around for two years if they had the ability to invade straight away.

They weren't detected for 1000s of years, why would they be detected now?

2nd I enjoyed ME2. I don’t care if it’s filler and until we know what the human reaper was for we don’t know that it was filler.

I used to think ME2 is just a filler to and I still liked it.

But after those comments and trailer, there's no reason think it's no longer that.
 

I

didn’t say developers saying it happens after the Suicide Mission is a plot hole. I said it’s a plot hole if it doesn’t happen after the SM.

I hadn’t considered the recruitment missions, I’m not even sure that the dialogue in them refers to the SM so I don’t know to what extent they might not work but they are not major plot points and the principle is different anyway.

Shepard still talks about stopping Collectors with Thane, even though they are already dealt with.

There's no reason for Shepard to get Kasumi and Zaeed since they are payed to do only that mission.

Recruitment missions are something that may need to be taken away after the SM in order to make sense while Arrival is something that could just be delayed until after the SM to make sense. They already delay Arrival until after Horizon so they have no problem delaying the  dlc. I can understand why they’d not want to
take missions away from people who haven’t played them yet but I don’t understand why they couldn’t delay the Arrival dlc until a plot appropriate time.

For squadmates I think it's available do to Zaeed and Kasumi being DLC.
So when someone decides to get them, but doesn't want to replay entire game again, they just play DLC.

I think Arrival couldn't be played only after SM do to technical problems.
I can't prove that, but I really don't see why would they do that and later on set up that timeline.

But the relays are instantaneous travel. Who cares if the Batarians see something. The galaxy will have only seconds before the Reapers are bearing down on the Citadel. Besides, how will the human reaper get from the Omega 4 relay to the main relay in Omega’s system and thence to the Citadel without being spotted? Same issue.

They same way Sovereign get to Citadel.

Also That Reaper will need to have armada of ships to get to Citadel Tower.
If that Reaper get's too early, then sh*t.
Let's prepare for Reaper invasion.


Also we don't know much about Object Rho.
What if only Harbinger and that artifact were connected and only he can find it?

Modifié par Mesina2, 29 juin 2011 - 07:34 .

[Thrombin]

Ok, I'm without a quote button again so I'll just cut to the most salient point in all this.

What do the Reapers gain by activating the Citadel relay and pouring into Citadel space to attack the Galaxy as opposed to flying through the Alpha relay into Citadel space to attack the galaxy?

I say, very little if anything at all.

The Citadel relay was just a special relay which connected to a relay the reapers have in Dark Space. It allows them to get from dark space to the hub of the galaxy without having to travel the hard way. As such, if they can get there the hard way in a couple of months it makes no sense to need to wait two years just so that they can build something to open the relay. That just delays them 22 months for no tangible gain.

If they need two years to travel then, and only then, in my opinion does it make sense for them to have taken so long to arrive.

Regards

Julian

[SpiffySquee]

Thrombin wrote...

Ok, I'm without a quote button again so I'll just cut to the most salient point in all this.

What do the Reapers gain by activating the Citadel relay and pouring into Citadel space to attack the Galaxy as opposed to flying through the Alpha relay into Citadel space to attack the galaxy?

I say, very little if anything at all.

The Citadel relay was just a special relay which connected to a relay the reapers have in Dark Space. It allows them to get from dark space to the hub of the galaxy without having to travel the hard way. As such, if they can get there the hard way in a couple of months it makes no sense to need to wait two years just so that they can build something to open the relay. That just delays them 22 months for no tangible gain.

If they need two years to travel then, and only then, in my opinion does it make sense for them to have taken so long to arrive.

Regards

Julian

If it does not make that much difference as you say, then why did they go through such an enormous effort to be able to pop up at the citadel? And why didn't they just attack after Sovereign found out it did not work? Vigil said it was possible that Sov spent hundreds of years gathering allies to try and keep with plan A. You don't do all that if plan A is a simple convince. The ability to hit the Cit first was important enough for Sov to spend so much time and effort finding a way to do it, so I doubt it does not make a big difference.

[CroGamer002]

^Pretty much that.

[Thrombin]

I don't remember vigil saying Sovereign took hundreds of years gathering allies but you have a point that Sovereign seems to have spent more than two years in trying to gather the Geth and indoctrinate Saren.

The only explanation I can think of is that Sovereign needs to acess the Citadel to send a signal to wake the other reapers up and that he was successful in this even though Shepard stopped him before he could open the relay.

If anyone can think why using the Citadel relay is worth waiting for then I'd be interested to hear the theories!

Regards

Julian

[CroGamer002]

I give up.

We're just going in circles in this debate.

[Vengeful Nature]

Arcian wrote...

To be absolutely honest with you, I believe the twin-Relay to the Citadel is a ship. A massive, mobile super-structure that the Reaper fleet brings with them when moving in Dark Space. This way, they could have started moving towards the galaxy the moment Sovereign's signal failed and still have gotten use out of Sovereign's efforts to conquer the citadel.

Just wanted to chime and say that this is highly likely. That or the relays are in fact ships themselves, the Reapers have control over them, and there are one or more travelling with the Reaper armada.

[Thrombin]

Mesina2 wrote...

I give up.

We're just going in circles in this debate.

I'm surprised you say that. I thought we'd moved on to new and interesting ground, actually 

Arcian's idea of the portable Mass Relay in dark space could work. It would mean that the Reapers could have been travelling towards the galaxy from the moment Sovereign's signal failed and Sovereign's efforts, however long they took, were just a way to reduce the time it took for them to get there.

Another thought is that activating the Citadel relay could very well obliterate all life on the Citadel which would save them some time 

Not sure about the Keepers, though. I got the feeling they've survived several cycles so maybe they have a safe room they can go to!

Regards

Julian

[Rahmiel]

Considering people don't even know how the relays work, and the drastic difference between the citadel and the other relays.. the citadel "relay" could pull the reapers in from dark space, as well as send them out. Maybe a "jump off" point is not required when using the citadel.

Also, @spiffy, I'm not saying EDI's comment is silly or that we should ignore it. I'm saying we shouldn't get rid of either. It's not some backhanded comment, not to mention before the squadmate says they're going to target Earth, the other squadmate you have says they could take every human in the terminus systems and not fill the ship.

It's not concrete evidence to suggest the collectors would not be finished the reaper if they did nab every human in the terminus, but those two comments together suggests heavily they will be targeting Earth. Also, I'm sure EDI, being as scientific and exacting as you mention, with scans and such, would have chimed in if they were way off base.

Again, I'm not saying you should disregard anything any of the characters in the game comment on or suggest. I'm saying everything should be looked at and considered. Unless there appears contradictory reports or comments, etc. about the collector's plans we have to assume the collectors were targeting Earth for a future assault.

I just don't see a valid reason to start disregarding character dialogue. Not to mention, you could bring in mordin who is a genius. Considering the comment(s) we're referring to can come from any squadmate, it's clearly not just "colour commentary" but meant to be fact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Thrombin wrote...

I get that you 'proved' that the canon timeline for Arrival was after the SM but the fact you can optionally play Arrival before the SM is a major pothole using your theory. Why develop a theory which allows for a major pothole when there's a perfectly good one that doesn't?

So developers saying Arrival happens after Suicide Mission is plothole since you can play it before?

I'm just going to give a thought, and then go: no one take offense or umbrage, this is just my thoughts on the topic of 'when.'




Think of it as Flex Time. Or Schrodinger's Cat. Or both.

Let's start from the basis of overall intent: Arrival was designed and intended as Bridging DLC. It is, at it's design intent, meant to be played after the Suicide Missions, just like recruitment missions take place, well, before. In so much that there is a timeline for Mass Effect's games (as indicted by Lore Bible), Arrival is some time after the suicide mission. Two months before ME3, at least a year after the suicide mission (Retribution timeline). Since the post-suicide mission time span immediately goes into a 'could be X weeks after' as soon as you complete the Suicide Mission, Arrival takes place really long after ME2 even if you play it five minutes after blowing up the base. When you do Arrival after the Suicide Mission, two months later the Reapers will invade.

If you did it after the Suicide Mission.

Now, here's where dramatic flex time comes in. Mass Effect is notorious for it: no matter what order you take for any mission, you always come 'just in time': just in time to save Garrus from the long-planned merc assault, just in time to do whatever time-critical last-minute arrival and intervention is necessary. Like with Arrival, or Overlord. Mission order doesn't matter. If you start Arrival before the suicide mission, you show up three days from Arrival: if you start it six months, or a year, after the Suicide Mission you are still 3 days from Arrival, the same as no matter how fast you rescue the refinery workers in Zaeed's LM, or how slow you are in fighting through the Blue Suns, the choice dictates whether Vido gets away.

Here's the only fixed dates we have to follow before a plot inconsistency: the year Mass Effect 3 starts (which will be universal), and the events of Retribution (one year after the Suicide mission). Past that, when Arrival occured doesn't matter because, well, Arrival itself provides the catch-all: 'delay could be monthes or years.'  And a large part of that delay could be based upon what the Reapers perceive at the time Arrival takes place, besides how hard they decide to push themselves.


Here are easy-peasy justifications for the Invasion starting the same time despite the difference of Arrival.

Before Suicide Mission: the Reapers, feeling less pressed for time for X reasons, do a bit more prepatory groundwork. Though they do indeed arrive within two monthes, they spend the rest of Y time preparing: setting up indoctrination spies, restocking/preparing war materials where no one else is, planning more intensly, double checking before the optimal moment. D-Day becomes Day 0 of ME3.

After the Suicide Mission, the Reapers feel pressed for time. The Collector Base technology, even in destruction, is compromised. Actual Reaper technology is being studied by organics (Retribution). If it there wasn't pressure before, there is now: the Reapers (more or less) decide to Blitz rather than make extensive preparations, deciding to make up the difference as they go. We may never notice the difference, but D-Day is still... Day 0 of ME3.




This is why I say ME operates on Schrodinger time. Arrival both does and does not take place exactly two months before the start of ME3. Ideally, in the planned universe (post-Suicide Mission), that two months is iron clad. Anything you do after, Shepard did in that two month period.

But Arrival can also occur before the Suicide Mission. On Arrival's own basis, plus possible invisible other happenings that don't matter, that two months flexes into 12+X months. Just as 'canonical'. just not 'intended': Shepard didn't fall into a time warp.



TLDR: 

-Mass Effect 3 will occur at the same time regardless of when Arrival was played.
-Arrival takes place two months before ME3 if played after Suicide Mission (this is the design-intended route). Arrival occurs no sooner than 10 months after the Suicide Mission, to allow for Retribution.
-Arrival takes place more than two months before ME3 if played before the Suicide Mission (in order to take account and allow Retribution).
-Arrival is equally canonical before and after the Suicide Mission, and is equally valid.

[hwf]

Mesina2: Why? Why do it now? And where did you get it's new version of Reaper?

Well I'm no Reaper so I wouldn't know why they insisted on using the Collectors right away to start processing Humans into this new version of a Reaper; a Human Reaper.

Mesina2: Where's your proof they can't get enough from Terminus System's?

This is a very interesting question. But I'm not going to answer it since the theory I mentioned doesn't require an answer for this question; it's valid either way.

However, a plan B - a new Vanguard, building a new Reaper to open up the gigantic mass relay that is the Citadel does require millions more Humans to be collected.
You agree with me that the Collector Vessel is essentially not a severe threat; unless you have an undefended colony.
Where's the proof they can get enough Humans from outlying, undefended colonies in the Terminus System?

Mesina2: Reapers are patient, why would they rush to create a new Reaper just for the sake of creating one while they have galaxy to reap? [...] In other words, ME2 main plot doesn't have any real purpose with that idea.

I'm not saying they're rushing to create a new Reaper at all; they're just making one. I don't know what they're going to do with it and my theory doesn't require a reason.

If ME2's main plot didn't exist the Collectors wouldn't have been wiped out; the end result of that is that the Collectors would've landed on a completely conquered Earth.
No defenses on Earth left, no means to stop the Collectors from collecting Humans, no means to touch the Collector Ship.

The end result is that the teaser trailer we saw for ME3, a sniper in the Big Ben taking down a husk or something that was chasing down fleeing unarmed civillians, couldn't have happened if ME2 didn't happen.
If ME2 didn't happen the sniper would've been paralyzed, the civilians would've been paralyzed and the Collectors would just go into every building, carefully putting every Human in pods and cart them off to their base, the Reaper production facility, straight away - to be molten down into slag and infused into a new Reaper.
Straight away is key here - starting on day one of the attack on Earth the Collectors would've been busy cleaning out the Earth of Humans.

Of course, our Shepards kick major ass so that didn't happen; in the canon timeline Earth still has a fighting chance because the Illusive Man saw the fringe colony abductions as a severe threat that had to be analyzed and dealt with - so I'd say the ME2 main plot has a real purpose with this idea.

[CroGamer002]

@Dean_the_Young game can't tell in what order you played a game.

[Raxxman]

TLDR: 

-Mass Effect 3 will occur at the same time regardless of when Arrival was played.
-Arrival takes place two months before ME3 if played after Suicide Mission (this is the design-intended route). Arrival occurs no sooner than 10 months after the Suicide Mission, to allow for Retribution.
-Arrival takes place more than two months before ME3 if played before the Suicide Mission (in order to take account and allow Retribution).
-Arrival is equally canonical before and after the Suicide Mission, and is equally valid.

Q. When will the reapers attack earth?



A. When it's dramatically convenient for them to.

Modifié par Raxxman, 29 juin 2011 - 08:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed, Messina. And it wouldn't matter if it could.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[CroGamer002]

hwf wrote...

Well I'm no Reaper so I wouldn't know why they insisted on using the Collectors right away to start processing Humans into this new version of a Reaper; a Human Reaper.

Please provide evidence that this is new kind of Reaper.

This is a very interesting question. But I'm not going to answer it since the theory I mentioned doesn't require an answer for this question; it's valid either way.

However, a plan B - a new Vanguard, building a new Reaper to open up the gigantic mass relay that is the Citadel does require millions more Humans to be collected.
You agree with me that the Collector Vessel is essentially not a severe threat; unless you have an undefended colony.
Where's the proof they can get enough Humans from outlying, undefended colonies in the Terminus System?

EDI's assupmtion.
Not really an evidence, but I don't see how most advanced A.I. can be dead wrong about it.

I'm not saying they're rushing to create a new Reaper at all; they're just making one. I don't know what they're going to do with it and my theory doesn't require a reason.

/facepalm

If ME2's main plot didn't exist the Collectors wouldn't have been wiped out; the end result of that is that the Collectors would've landed on a completely conquered Earth.
No defenses on Earth left, no means to stop the Collectors from collecting Humans, no means to touch the Collector Ship.

Reapers are on Earth.
Instead of Collectors they got Cerberus and they still got Geth.

No big loss, especially if you kept Collector base.

The end result is that the teaser trailer we saw for ME3, a sniper in the Big Ben taking down a husk or something that was chasing down fleeing unarmed civillians, couldn't have happened if ME2 didn't happen.
If ME2 didn't happen the sniper would've been paralyzed, the civilians would've been paralyzed and the Collectors would just go into every building, carefully putting every Human in pods and cart them off to their base, the Reaper production facility, straight away - to be molten down into slag and infused into a new Reaper.
Straight away is key here - starting on day one of the attack on Earth the Collectors would've been busy cleaning out the Earth of Humans.

Now tell me how that ship can get from Omega to Earth without getting shut down by Council forces.
Or even retreating Alliance fleets.

It's still just 1 ship that Normandy can take down easily.

Of course, our Shepards kick major ass so that didn't happen; in the canon timeline Earth still has a fighting chance because the Illusive Man saw the fringe colony abductions as a severe threat that had to be analyzed and dealt with - so I'd say the ME2 main plot has a real purpose with this idea.

Ha?
Illusive Man had no idea why are they abducting only humans, let alone to attack the Earth.
Nobody knows why they targeted humanity until they saw Human Reaper.

Also there's no info that Collectors planned to attack Earth.
Just that off-hand comments from squadmates.

Which only Legion and Grunt don't say it.

Now Grunt doesn't care, but why would not Legion say that if they were right for both they can fill every pod with every human in Terminus System's and they'll attack Earth, but still have every other dialogue on that mission?

Why?
I know, because Legion is an A.I.
They know better then just to make assumption on nothing.

[Phaedon]

For people debating on the canon timeline about Arrival:

The following has been confirmed.

Arrival takes place 2 months after the Suicide Mission and that's when the Reapers arrive to the galaxy, the Reapers find the next batarian relay/ start reaping, 6 to 12 months (based on your decisions?), after Arrival.

Both of them are "official" statements, so I don't see much point in debating them. Arrival was made open to play before the SM because not all people have Post-SM saves.