29 réponses à ce sujet

[hangmans tree]

I dont want to start a flame or name calling elitist invectives slinging battle. Nor war of the platforms...or whatever similar. So, here I go.

ME2 left a really big empty space in the story and script departement. It was a good game but I was rather annoyed how superficial it turned out to be in some aspects. And the binary choices and morality.

Somewhere in between I found myself hating DA2 for all the wasted time I invested in the game. At some point I asked myself: whats it all for? Does my choices alter or have an impact on the scene? with the Illusion of "decision" at the end being the final drop.

Now, I wish ME3 to really acomplish something great. To take the bar of storytellin to another level. I know BW is capable...or are they?

After TW2:aok game I thought  - now that is adventure! It didnt matter for me it had a lot to improve upon. I didnt feel last chapter was rushed or anything, sharp abrupt end fits there like a glove imo. and the somewhat peaceful and slow epilogue...lingering comes to my mind.
It was a ride I wont forget anytime soon. And as one can see you can develop a game rich in story, combat and visuals alike.

I wish ME3 applied a similar formula. I would like to have to think real hard what to do, how to act, feel the weight of decision (and unknown consequences sometime later). Let me fail in some instances, let me make an effort, sweat even. Grasp the victory, win the game by a thread...to work for flawless victory. You could always make the closing satisfying regardeless of effort put into the game. but would that be rewarding? I think not.
I know broad audiences, I know accessible, I know casual. But since when does this mean a game so straight you can stride blindfolded?
Do devs fear players wont see EVERYTHING you prepared for us? Is it such a bad thing to let us  wonder a bit and let us loose to run around? Predictability was killing the genre for some time now. I still hope it will turn around.

And making another bunch of character taken straight under the needle of a demographic-wish-list generator is not a safe bet and a win formulae. I'm really sick of all the love/support/LI/romances threads. As if it were a peak of game achivement. Building relationship(s) is important, yes, less about the features of a character but what are his/hers goals and what he/she strives for...Do we know him/her better, do we even want to? Will our paths entwine or go separate ways based on worldview and actions taken?
And dont you ****ing tell me my companion disapproves/rivalry -10...

My time is up for the moment. I hope that the situation with RPG/story will only improve in time, preferably in short term - revolutionary way, with a  massive effect, sweeping millions of gamers from our feet.

[Fogg]

Since the trilogy will end in ME3 (and with that the story of Shepard) Bioware has a lot more freedom with the possible endings, since it doesn't all have to lead into a new game (like ME1 and ME2 had to deal with). Expect these same threads the other way round on the Witcher-forum starting march 2012.

[Tripedius]

Choices never matter, it's all cosmetic. ME1 and ME2 wil have limited impact on ME3 except maybe 1-5 variables they put in the starting comic for new players. Answer is, the DO want players to see everything and they want to avoid the newbie anger: 'why can't I have this or that, it's lame that you have to play two other games to get them'.
It would take a big set of balls to make a third installement which will favor those who played ME1 & 2. BW doesn't have those, they shrink when they think of the potential money loss (which doesn't have to be there).

[Dariuszp]

I did ask the same thing. Someone point me in another thread. Few pages about "why the hell we got ME2 ?" because at the end we are in the same point as we have been. Reapers comming.

Decisions decisions, decisions. Yes. BW create them but never use them. And they are made in a way that allow you to load savegame 10 min before and replay that part if you didn't like the outcome.

Loot of people complain about Witcher series because chocies. They decide to do something but they didn't like consequences of their actions. And they could not load their saves because this happened 4 hours before...

Anyway. In ME II you were able to kill your main character. In ME 1 you could release/kill Rachni queen. I hope they will use it. If ME3 will not end like DA II then I will probably replay whole series just to see if for example killing main character in ME2 will have some impact on ME3. Because ME1 had no impact on ME2 in my opinion. Nothing importand anyway.

[xSTONEYx187x]

^^^^^^

Someone is MAD! lol

EDIT: Whoops, that was for Tripadeus. 

Modifié par xSTONEYx187x, 27 juin 2011 - 11:53 .

[sighineedname]

ME2 contained reminders that your choices in ME1 were significant. That's about it. The reason for this is because if you keep branching the choices the number of resolutions they have to consider increases exponentially. I expect they will have important impacts in ME3, when this becomes a non-issue.

[Berkilak]

DA2 had to segue into the inevitable DA3 and ME2 had to segue with the inevitable ME3 (that being said, your Shep could have died... that's pretty significant). That really constricted the scope of both games. "Final" entries can be much more open to individual experience, though. That being said, I still feel very burned by DA2...

I hope ME3 actually follows up on significant choices instead of referencing them. Yes, we know they happened. We were there. But give us some consequence.

[Lumikki]

Ahh the same old same ME2 bashing, without any real point. If you want ONLY story choises matters, you are playing wrong games. Because REAL roleplaying games has more than just story choises.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 juin 2011 - 12:14 .

[hangmans tree]

Another thing I would like to see is some kind of timer/limited drops in hot/war zones. Wether to go head to head with reapers and their minions or to go with evac plus search and rescue type of mission. You cant meake it in time to do both (or three or four) drops in the same time. Some of the events happen simultanously regardless where Shepard and the Normandy is. you either make it or you dont. Even better - make it a tytanic task to make it possible to achive it all...

[hangmans tree]

Lumikki wrote...

Ahh the same old same ME2 bashing, without any real point. If you want ONLY story choises matters, you are playing wrong games. Because REAL roleplaying games has more than just story choises.

And you my, dear Lumikki, are missing the point. Of my opening post that is (since you dont quote anyone in particular).

[Sidney]

Dariuszp wrote...

I did ask the same thing. Someone point me in another thread. Few pages about "why the hell we got ME2 ?" because at the end we are in the same point as we have been. Reapers comming.

Same reason you have the two towers. Sauron is still coming but things happen between act I and act III. Think of the Collectors as Harbinger's Sauruman.

Plus at this point we don't know what, if any granted, affect there would be of the human reaper so destroying it might be a key to us being able to stop the reapers where no one else in the past has.

[Dariuszp]

So what. Because someone else put filler between two stories then it's OK to do it ? Are you normal ? If someone kill himself, it's okey to commit suicide ? :| Great logic @Sidney!

[Lumikki]

hangmans tree wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Ahh the same old same ME2 bashing, without any real point. If you want ONLY story choises matters, you are playing wrong games. Because REAL roleplaying games has more than just story choises.

And you my, dear Lumikki, are missing the point. Of my opening post that is (since you dont quote anyone in particular).

I did not missing the point, I was commenting how you point was made and what you personally value a lot.

You put value in only sertain choises and then present it like it's only thing what matters. You present case like You hate something because it wasn't well done, then you present example where it was well done, while not criticize how in same example the other choises was not well done, like saying they did not matter. You conserate only one kind of choises what matters to you and ignore all other choises what are also part of roleplaying games.

No don't get me wrong, I agree that ME3 story choises should mean more than before in ME series games. But I don't like how you rise some games as "good" example where it worked well, while other choises in same game where totally ****ed up. Then say they don't matter. Of course they also matter as much as the story choises too.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 juin 2011 - 01:02 .

[nhsk]

Yes I would like to have ME3 to be 28 different games, all having different paths depending on my choices, and I'm sure it wouldn't at all add to development time and cost me a fortune when buying the final product.
/sarcasm

Face it, if Mordin is dead another Salarian will do whatever work he is doing on the planet thingy where you have to escort the krogan female etc. etc. The only thing that is going to differ in a major way is... the epilogue slide text or however the epilogue is created.

[Berkilak]

Dariuszp wrote...

So what. Because someone else put filler between two stories then it's OK to do it ? Are you normal ? If someone kill himself, it's okey to commit suicide ? :| Great logic @Sidney!

There's a difference between filler and buildup. The initial threat can be identified early, but that doesn't mean that you're going to be charging headlong into your objective the next day... there are obstacles to be faced in the meantime before the big showdown.

Otherwise, your story consists of two chapters...

[hangmans tree]

Lumikki wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Ahh the same old same ME2 bashing, without any real point. If you want ONLY story choises matters, you are playing wrong games. Because REAL roleplaying games has more than just story choises.

And you my, dear Lumikki, are missing the point. Of my opening post that is (since you dont quote anyone in particular).

I did not missing the point, I was commenting how you point was made and what you personally value a lot.

You put value in only sertain choises and then present it like it's only thing what matters. You present case like You hate something because it wasn't well done, then you present example where it was well done, while not criticize how in same example the other choises was not well done, like saying they did not matter. You conserate only one kind of choises what matters to you and ignore all other choises what are also part of roleplaying games.

No don't get me wrong, I agree that ME3 story choises should mean more than before in ME series games. But I don't like how you rise some games as "good" example where it worked well, while other choises in same game where totally ****ed up. Then say they don't matter. Of course they also matter as much as the story choises too.

I referred to branching options. going different paths that lead to more than one or two outcomes. In the end when you have a bunch of choices and only one ending with paragon or renegade flavour - do you feel the story achived something that is memorable? Were they meaningful? When that happens it means your actions bear no significance at all...

[Lumikki]

hangmans tree wrote...

I referred to branching options. going different paths that lead to more than one or two outcomes. In the end when you have a bunch of choices and only one ending with paragon or renegade flavour - do you feel the story achived something that is memorable? Were they meaningful? When that happens it means your actions bear no significance at all...

Yeah, that's fine point. I like when my choises has real meaning. ME3 will have different endings based what you did there..

My point was, when you present you case, don't bash game and praise other, just based you values as what you consider important in games and lesser the meaning of others.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 juin 2011 - 01:33 .

[Dariuszp]

Yet Lumikki story is important (if not to say most important) part in RPG games. RPG is about story and characters and you want to tell us that story dont have high value. Something clearly wrong with you

[Lumikki]

Dariuszp wrote...

Yet Lumikki story is important (if not to say most important) part in RPG games. RPG is about story and characters and you want to tell us that story dont have high value. Something clearly wrong with you

No, I'm telling to you that story and character has both high value, not just one

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 juin 2011 - 01:35 .

[Goneaviking]

Games with narratives are hamstrung because they need to nudge you in the same direction regardless of what choices you make along the way.

The objective of ME1 was to stop Sovereign from taking the Citadel and opening the door for the reapers.

The objective of ME2 was to stop the Collector's attacks on human worlds, and by doing thwart their attempt at creating a new reaper from the leavings of their victims.

Of course they're going to push you to that end point. Decisions you make along the way make the task easier or harder, and influence what comes in the next part of the series, but a wholesale rewrite of the story because someone doesn't like Cerberus isn't viable. It reduces freedom of choice, and reduces the impact of decisions because whatever course you take still needs to feed into the overall plot of the game; but that's the price of having a game with a narrative.

It's frustrating, but when I play games without a narrative I get very bored, very quickly and rarely finish them.

[Berkilak]

ME3, however, doesn't have those confines. Who knows? Some endings might not have us stopping the Reapers at all. ME1 had to segue into ME2 into ME3. ME3 can leave the endpoint very open since it isn't constricted in such a manner. I just hope they take full advantage of that.

Modifié par Berkilak, 27 juin 2011 - 01:51 .

[Dexi]

nhsk wrote...

Yes I would like to have ME3 to be 28 different games, all having different paths depending on my choices, and I'm sure it wouldn't at all add to development time and cost me a fortune when buying the final product.
/sarcasm

Face it, if Mordin is dead another Salarian will do whatever work he is doing on the planet thingy where you have to escort the krogan female etc. etc. The only thing that is going to differ in a major way is... the epilogue slide text or however the epilogue is created.

Best post in the thread.

It ignores the petty argument already created and delivers the answer. Of course, just because it does that, it is ignored.



BSN.

[Berkilak]

Dexi wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Yes I would like to have ME3 to be 28 different games, all having different paths depending on my choices, and I'm sure it wouldn't at all add to development time and cost me a fortune when buying the final product.
/sarcasm

Face it, if Mordin is dead another Salarian will do whatever work he is doing on the planet thingy where you have to escort the krogan female etc. etc. The only thing that is going to differ in a major way is... the epilogue slide text or however the epilogue is created.

Best post in the thread.

It ignores the petty argument already created and delivers the answer. Of course, just because it does that, it is ignored.



BSN.

That's kind of the downfall of these new, pretty, fully-voiced games... they want most of their content to be experienced on any given playthrough. Gone are the days of sprites and text and innumerable endings.

That being said... five or so different ending missions based on success you've had with recruiting species wouldn't be too unreasonable.

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Mass Effect franchise and the player choices importing into future games was an ambitious undertaking. The technology to fully realize the concept just isn't there yet.

I disagree with a lot of what you say sometimes, but I think you nailed it hard right here.

BW had an ambitious project on their hands with the ME trilogy.  I think they discovered, however, that they might've bitten off more than they could chew.  The sheer amount of voice acting and script writing that would be needed for a widely divergent story grew exponentially.

So, they altered things so that the choices were more about flavoring the story to your own personal taste, a project they could deal with.  And, personally, I'm fine with that.  ME are still the best games I've ever played, period, the end.

The choices DO matter, just not to the degree, I think, that BW had originally hoped.

Until you can get computers that can believably voice act, ME is about as good as it gets in terms of a choice-based RPG story writing.