889 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Montezuma IV wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Sierra Crysis wrote...
IE: making him an **** or a wimp or whatever, I'll be frustrated.

Stereotypes suck. 

Have faith in Bioware. Seriously. Try it. You'll be surprised. 

But feminime gay  men do exist   Bioware can't ignore them, they should be accounted for also

As if that feminime was a trait strictly for gay men....

Anyway....BioWare as never done a character like this....so....could it technically be called stereotyping if they did?

I for one want a superficial gay man. It'd be awesome. 

I know it would be hilariously awesome.
Anders would've been more interesting if he was flamboyant and not so whiny

[Sierra Crysis]

ipgd wrote...

Anders's humor was a facade to cover a lot of pent up hatred and turmoil. Justice was a single-minded personification of a black and white concept with little ability to function in the real world. Their merger was fire to an oil slick and exacerbated every negative aspect of eachother in turn. Anders's emotional instability paired with Justice's obsessiveness produced exactly what you see in the game.

Go back and play Awakening again if you really think the change was out of left field. Hell, just read about what solitary confinement does to a person.

Was it a take-down? Truely? Seems like a tribute to me. The fact that it isn't as it appears to be in the end doesn't rewrite the path it takes to get there, and certainly doesn't take the taste left in your mouth out at all. Can we get past whether or not it makes sense though? I do agree that could go down like that, but why? Bioware wanted it to happen like that and it works. Just not happy with it is all.

[Maugrim]

This thread has inspired me to create a video.

The Future

What I didn't say it was a work of art.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 27 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[jbblue05]

ElitePinecone wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Sierra Crysis wrote...
IE: making him an **** or a wimp or whatever, I'll be frustrated.

Stereotypes suck. 

Have faith in Bioware. Seriously. Try it. You'll be surprised. 

But feminime gay  men do exist   Bioware can't ignore them, they should be accounted for also

Yes, they do. I fail to see your point. It's not Bioware's perogative to provide a roll call of every personality type under the sun. 

The character and mannerisms won't change. When was the last time you heard Sbarge sound feminine?

Throwing around words like 'wimp' is hardly constructive. The character won't become a stereotype just because that stereotype exists. 

[Destroy Raiden_]

Because they wish to have BW rewrite characters based off of their wishes rather then in game evidence shown. This is why I think only new characters like vega should be s/s options sense they'll be not established people we're getting to know. There is no rewrites, no retcons, no explanation needed for switch over, and no ruining of character sense we don't know the new crewmen.

[shepskisaac]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Because they wish to have BW rewrite characters based off of their wishes rather then in game evidence shown. This is why I think only new characters like vega should be s/s options sense they'll be not established people we're getting to know. There is no rewrites, no retcons, no explanation needed for switch over, and no ruining of character sense we don't know the new crewmen.

There's no rewriting or retcons in Kaidan's case either. Having him be bisexual doesn't contradict anything that's already established thus it not a rewrite nor retcon. Period.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Because they wish to have BW rewrite characters based off of their wishes rather then in game evidence shown. This is why I think only new characters like vega should be s/s options sense they'll be not established people we're getting to know. There is no rewrites, no retcons, no explanation needed for switch over, and no ruining of character sense we don't know the new crewmen.

You keep saying retcon, I don't think you know what it means.

[jlb524]

jbblue05 wrote...

Their is a 100+ page thread about s/s romances.

Sugar-coat it however you like   "FIght for the Love  The same-sex romance thread"

That's...a vague non-answer.

[jbblue05]

IsaacShep wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Because they wish to have BW rewrite characters based off of their wishes rather then in game evidence shown. This is why I think only new characters like vega should be s/s options sense they'll be not established people we're getting to know. There is no rewrites, no retcons, no explanation needed for switch over, and no ruining of character sense we don't know the new crewmen.

There's no rewriting or retcons in Kaidan's case either. Having him be bisexual doesn't contradict anything that's already established thus it not a rewrite nor retcon. Period.

Correct.

Appeasement fits better

[DoNotIngest]

Kaidan stared at my @ss on every elevator ride I ever took with him. Made things pretty awkward.

[Sierra Crysis]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were bisexual from the start.

They didn't know there was money in it then.

[ipgd]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Was it a take-down? Truely? Seems like a tribute to me.

... Really? The tropes at played straight up to Act II (cynically, painting him as a sort of creepily obsessive figure), peak, and then are systemically ripped apart in Act III. I have no idea how anyone could even delude themselves into thinking Anders's romance is supposed to be healthy and fulfilling and typical. If that's really how you think most romance tropes play out, I clearly haven't been reading the right romance novels.

The fact that it isn't as it appears to be in the end doesn't rewrite the path it takes to get there, and certainly doesn't take the taste left in your mouth out at all.

what.jpg

Narratives are kind of a cohesive continuum. You can't just pull a chunk out and say "LOOK HOW BAD IT IS WHEN YOU CHOP OUT HALF THE NARRATIVE".

Can we get past whether or not it makes sense though? I do agree that could go down like that, but why? Bioware wanted it to happen like that and it works. Just not happy with it is all.

And that's fine. I just sort of question your complaints since they appear to be founded on what is essentially a fundamental misunderstanding as to what exactly the narrative themes of his character arc and romance constitute, and the distinction between a personal dislike for specific themes and an objectively poor handling of those themes.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[Ryzaki]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were bisexual from the start.

Really the dev team should've just went for it. Awkward dialogue or no. Not like Meer's acting was that great and nonawkward with the other LIs. 

[shepskisaac]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were bisexual from the start.

They didn't have enough time. Now they're putting in the option that was suppoused to be there from the start, if anyhing, they're finally realizing the character like they wanted to. Same as with Tali. They didn't put her romance in ME1 because they feared the players wouldn't accept it, but after it turned out not to be a problem, they implemented her romance in ME2 and made her the character they wanted from the begining.

[Maugrim]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were bisexual from the start.

They didn't know there was in it then.

Fixed

[Siansonea]

In the words of the First Hybrid, "all of this has happened before, and will happen again". A person could develop a terminal case of déjà vu around here.

[78stonewobble]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

But I digress - a bisexual Kaidan is a shallow copout as opposed to a character written to be bisexual or gay (preferably gay).

In a perfect world, sure.

But there are zots to consider.  I personally have zero interest whatsoever in S/S romances in ME3 or any other BioWare game, but in recognizing that others do, I wholeheartedly endorse giving them access to it in a manner which requires the least amount of zots.  Which is, quite simply, to make love interests bisexual (or ProtagonistSexual).  It's not "shallow,"  it makes efficient use of limited resources to appeal to the broadest possible customer base.

It doesn't harm me in the least, and it lets people who prefer S/S romances enjoy the love-interest content just as I do.  Those who do claim it harms them need - and often, immediately have - their motivations scrutinized.

Personally, I find many of the arguments against S/S inclusion in BioWare games as inherently selfish, considering that those in favor of them simply ask to be able to experience romance storylines with the same relatability and sexual preference that others in the majority take for granted.

Keep in mind that when you argue for a new gay (or even a new bisexual) character to be written to "appeal to the S/S crowd" you are endorsing directing zots away from existing characters to new ones for the express purpose of giving "those people" someone to sleep with.  I maintain it is in the interests of players who have little to no interest in S/S romances to support ProtagonistSexual or bisexual love interests because it costs few zots to accomplish an inclusive goal.

To be fair asking for ingame "change" is also inherently selfish but from my p.o.v. fully understandable.

The whole "it was supposed to be in", coversation piece # 12821 clearly says "xyz" which can be interpretated in whatever way is just a... hmm cover.

Theres nothing wrong in being a little selfish and wanting something for oneself. Especially when your cause is fair.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 27 juin 2011 - 07:11 .

[ipgd]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Is there any proof of that? The thing with Tali is just a rumor if I recall, but is there any proof about Kaidan?

They had the lines in.

There have been conflicting dev statements about cut s/s in ME1. I've seen it stated they were cut because of not enough time, statements that it's typical to record all lines for both Meer and Hale and it was never planned, and that it was planned but later cut because it "didn't fit with the characters".

[shepskisaac]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
Is there any proof of that? The thing with Tali is just a rumor if I recall, but is there any proof about Kaidan?

Please don't bring up Wikipedia because ANYone can mess with Wikipedia. Is there any proof from a dev?

Yes:
meforums.bioware.com/viewpost.html

As far as M/M love interests... I can say that it was planned, but as far as I know it was cut due to time constraints. Quite frankly the demand is small. I'm not defending it, but the choice is between a level that everyone will enjoy and a romance that only a minority will enjoy. We did it in Jade so we're not afraid of it; there just isn't enough time.

Sorry to all the gay ME fans

-Thomas

[jbblue05]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were bisexual from the start.

They didn't have enough time. Now they're putting in the option that was suppoused to be there from the start, if anyhing, they're finally realizing the character like they wanted to. Same as with Tali. They didn't put her romance in ME1 because they feared the players wouldn't accept it, but after it turned out not to be a problem, they implemented her romance in ME2 and made her the character they wanted from the begining.

I don't buy that. ME1 had bi-Liara,, bi-Shaira,  Ash, and Kaidan  In ME2 Bioware had 6 romances , 3 somehwat romances (, all bi Kelly, Morinth, and Samara) and two flirtatious romances (Parasini and bi-SHilala), they  could've easily made a couple male characters bi 

ME3 is 9 months away, how can they be so sure  their will be more s/s options? outside influences are making them include more s/s  options.

More S/S options is just appeasement for gay males.  Fem-Shepard can be a lesbo from the beginning while male Shepard is forced to stay in the closet or be straight

[jlb524]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Wait, you got that from what I just said? No no, I said I didn't like those changes, and didn't say anything about the other ones. This is a thread merely discussing the bisexual concern. Again. It's not that I want more stable relationships, It's not about that, it was never about that. The concern is them changing stable relationships to make them more dynamic/interesting/bisexual/epic/choice of adjective here.

They don't change characters to make them more more 'interesting romances'...they do it b/c it's where they decided to take the character and the narrative regardless of any romance.   They didn't 'change' Anders to make him an intereting, cool bisexual romance.  They did it because they wanted to explore some specific themes (dangers of spirit possession, the politics/morality surrounding the imprisonment of mages) and they decided to use Anders as the vehicle.

They then added in the romance, as they thought it would be interesting given the context of Anders' already written/established character dev.

Modifié par jlb524, 27 juin 2011 - 07:15 .

[Raanz]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were bisexual from the start.

They didn't have enough time. Now they're putting in the option that was suppoused to be there from the start, if anyhing, they're finally realizing the character like they wanted to. Same as with Tali. They didn't put her romance in ME1 because they feared the players wouldn't accept it, but after it turned out not to be a problem, they implemented her romance in ME2 and made her the character they wanted from the begining.

Really?  You would have to show me some proof of that.  What I had heard in the old Mass Effect forums was the s/s option for Ash and Kaidan was removed after focus testing.  Many of the testers either didn't care for it, or it just didn't get played out.  So they removed it.
As far as Tali, I was always lead to believe they put her romance in ME2 (along with Garrus) as a service to their fans.