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[Estelindis]

IsaacShep wrote...

when he admits to FemShep that he didn't realize she wasn't straight (triangle scene with FemShep/Kaidan/Liara) he also makes it clear he wouldn't bother flirting/pursuing FemShep in the first place had he knew

...I know I've already responded to this on the previous page, but I've been thinking about it for a few minutes and, while it is certainly a very good point (and still well-spotted, kudos), I'm not entirely sure it's conclusive. After all, Kaidan can at least consider that Shepard is bi at a much earlier stage in the romance, where he asks her if she's interested in Liara. And his statement during the three-way talk that he wouldn't have pursued Shepard if he'd known she was a lesbian (well, he doesn't come out and say it, but that's what we all read into his verbal stumble) is just the surface - the real undercurrent is pain at Shepard for leading him on (in other words, giving him reason to think that she was interested in men, or at least in one man: namely, him). It does imply that if she'd shown no interest in him and shut him down from the start that he wouldn't have made assumptions that she was attracted to men, no?

As an addition, I should note that as a long-time Kaidan fan I do appreciate the level of interest in the character being shown at the moment, from whatever quarter it comes!

Modifié par Estelindis, 28 juin 2011 - 01:18 .

[shepskisaac]

Estelindis wrote...
...I know I've already responded to this on the previous page, but I've been thinking about it for a few minutes and, while it is certainly a very good point (and still well-spotted, kudos), I'm not entirely sure it's conclusive. After all, Kaidan can at least consider that Shepard is bi at a much earlier stage in the romance, where he asks her if she's interested in Liara.

Yup, perhaps in case of FemShep he can consider it earlier. But there's zero possibility for ManShep to express his "gayness" anyway, so naturally Kaidan who assumed Shep is straight from the get-go won't start considering if maybe ManShep is bi.

Estelindis wrote...
And his statement during the three-way talk that he wouldn't have pursued Shepard if he'd known she was a lesbian (well, he doesn't come out and say it, but that's what we all read into his verbal stumble) is just the surface - the real undercurrent is pain at Shepard for leading him on (in other words, giving him reason to think that she was interested in men, or at least in one man: namely, him). It does imply that if she'd shown no interest in him and shut him down from the start that he wouldn't have made assumptions that she was attracted to men, no?

The end result is the same. Had he knew she was not interested in men, thus in him since he's a man, by default (since she's a lesbian), he wouldn't try. What's the point for a man to hit on someone who's biologically built not to like men in romantic way? Not only it's logical, it also fits into Kaidan's character. He's a person who doesn't like to force himself on anybody. He repeats several times during flirting with FemShep that if FemShep thinks he's out of line, she should just say one word and he will stop. If FemShep turns him down, he apologizes and says he won't repeat (flirting) again/he misread her intentions etc and he never goes back to flirting, even though we obviously know he still likes FemShep (it's not like people erase their crush on someone immediately after being turned down). So if he thinks ManShep is straight, it would not only be logical he wouldn't force himself onto him but also go very well with Kaidan's character, personality, culture and the way he approaches people.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 juin 2011 - 01:30 .

[Estelindis]

IsaacShep wrote...
Had he knew she was not interested in men, thus in him since he's a man, by default (since she's a lesbian), he wouldn't try. What's the point for a man to hit on someone who's biologically built not to like men in romantic way? Not only it's logical, it also fits into Kaidan's character. He's a person who doesn't like to force himself on anybody. He repeats several times during flirting with FemShep that if FemShep thinks he's out of line, she should just say one word and he will stop. If FemShep turns him down, he apologizes and says he won't repeat (flirting) again/he misread her intentions etc and he never goes back to flirting, even though we obviously know he still likes FemShep (it's not like people erase their crush on someone immediately after being turned down). So if he thinks ManShep is straight, it would not only be logical he wouldn't force himself onto him but also go very well with Kaidan's character, personality, culture and the way he approaches people.

This is some good, close analysis of Kaidan's character that I think shows a really deep appreciation of what makes him tick.  Were I wearing a hat, I would take it off to you.  :-)  Kaidan does talk to FemShep, both to get to know her as his commanding officer and to see if she shows any likelihood of reciprocating his feelings - but, as you say, we as players of FemShep have the option to show interest in him and thus answer his inner questions, whereas ManShep doesn't.  But, ah, this does seem to turn the arrow of time around.  Kaidan can't know in advance that male Shepard won't show any openness towards a romantic relationship.  We can say that the devs didn't put in any such questions from Kaidan because they knew they wouldn't lead anywhere with ManShep, but then we break our immersion and move to the level of writing, rather than putting ourselves in the characters' shoes and trying to ask what motivates them in-world.  Baffling stuff; it rather makes me feel like I'm trying to unravel a celtic knot.

Honestly, to me, this raises the question of whether the biggest retcon (if you'll allow me to use this word) of sexual orientation in ME3 wouldn't be Shepard himself.  I never had much sympathy for the Bioware devs' statements in past interviews that Shepard has an established personality that includes a heterosexual orientation (with asari not deciding things one way or another in the case of FemShep, due to their unusual sex/gender situation).  I always felt that, while Bioware decides certain things about Shepard and makes certain restrictions, ultimately the player is free to fill in the blanks however he or she likes.  If there is nothing in-world that outright makes a particular interpretation impossible, why shouldn't the player be allowed to interpret it that way?  Seems unfair for Bioware to go wading in our personal head-canon.  All this being true, Shepard seems a confident and self-assured individual.  I do wonder how Bioware would make it consistent for him not to at least make enquiries of any character who interested him.  On the other hand, the broad trend of romances in Mass Effect is for the LI to make the first move of showing interest, not Shepard (I choose to ignore FemShep's horrid, non-optional sleaziness towards Jacob!).  So maybe it shows Shepard, while a daring hero and nobody's fool, wouldn't be pushy around someone who seemed not to be attracted to him.  It could be that after the trauma of death separated Kaidan and Shepard that both, in time, reevaluated their hesitation.  On the whole, though, it might be preferable to focus on one or more new LIs, expressly-designed for S/S romance.  Shepard might be relieved to think "yes, here at last is someone I'm attracted to who shows no hesitation in being attracted to me; I waited a long time, but it's worth it" and never look back.

[Siansonea]

I interpret Shepard's reticence with Kaidan as a case of him assuming that Kaidan is straight. So, crossed wires on both their parts, each assumes the other wouldn't be up for it. Gay Shepard has a rough time, because no one around him seems to be gay or bi that he can tell. That's how I played my gay Sentinel, anyway. He tried to talk to Kaidan, but then Kaidan started talking about that Rahna girl, and my Shepard just went "okay, probably straight, best to just be friends" and didn't give it another thought. Kaidan is cute and all, but Shepard wasn't about to make a big awkward scene and make Kaidan feel icky for having a superior officer come on to him. FemShep has a different point of view, because she comes to the same assumption about Kaidan, which of course is encouraging for her, and when she drops a few hints, he's up for it. ManShep just thinks it's probably not worth dropping hints, since he's Kaidan's superior officer.

[shepskisaac]

Estelindis wrote...
Honestly, to me, this raises the question of whether the biggest retcon (if you'll allow me to use this word) of sexual orientation in ME3 wouldn't be Shepard himself.  I never had much sympathy for the Bioware devs' statements in past interviews that Shepard has an established personality that includes a heterosexual orientation (with asari not deciding things one way or another in the case of FemShep, due to their unusual sex/gender situation).

The asari explanation was a nonsense. It doesn't matter what Asari consider themselves to be. Form FemShep and the players' perspective, it's a lesbian romance and FemShep is a lesbian (or bisexual woman). Asari have boobs, female figure, female voice, they reffer to each others using female terms etc. If FemShep is attracted to the characteristics of Asari, then she's also attracted to human females. And then of course it's all confirmed with Kelly, a 100% human female. Kelly nullifies any excuse that FemShep is a pre-defined heterosexual. Which makes ManShep not a pre-defined heterosexual either, since they're suppoused to be the same character of Commander Shepard, with the same options to mold them the way the players like. Finally implementing male romance options for ManShep in ME3 is not a retcon, it's fixing in-game inconsistiency from ME1 & ME2. Not to mention once again, that retcon would have to contradict something. At no point having an option to indulge into same-sex romance as ManShep would contradict anything if someone never romanced anyone, or if someone consider his/her ManShep to be a bisexual man, just like they can do with FemShep.

[Estelindis]

IsaacShep wrote...
 If FemShep is attracted to the characteristics of Asari, then she's also attracted to human females. And then of course it's all confirmed with Kelly, a 100% human female. Kelly nullifies any excuse that FemShep is a pre-defined heterosexual. Which makes ManShep not a pre-defined heterosexual either, since they're suppoused to be the same character of Commander Shepard, with the same options to mold them the way the players like.

This idealistic claim unfortunately ignores the fair few differences between the ways the genders are treated in the Mass Effect franchise.  Female bi- or ******-sexuality is treated as acceptable in a way that the male version is not; from an alternative point of view, it's regarded as sufficiently interesting to the heterosexual male gaze that the devs were able to get away with putting it in the game because they knew a sufficently large proportion of their biggest fan demographic wouldn't mind.  Also, as I said before, there are significant differences in the way the LIs for male and female Shepard are portrayed: most notably, in my opinion, the fact that all male LIs for Shepard mention some past romantic history, whereas a number of female LIs for Shepard have had no romantic or sexual experience before falling in love with Shepard.  It's as if they feel female Shepard won't mind her men having past experience, or will actually expect it of them (that they should have some practice/experience to be worthy of her), whereas for quite a few (e.g. Tali, Liara) male Shepard is portrayed as the senior, experienced partner who is ready to show/teach the inexperienced woman everything.  We may wish to be able to draw a simple equivalence between all aspects of male and female Shepard, but the way the writers have treated the sexes in the game thus far does not allow us to do so completely.

IsaacShep wrote...
At no point having an option to indulge into same-sex romance as ManShep would contradict anything if someone never romanced anyone, or if someone consider his/her ManShep to be a bisexual man, just like they can do with FemShep.

Well, in terms of possible bisexuality, it wouldn't contradict anything even if ManShep had already romanced someone of the opposite gender, as people (okay, one person) in the thread keep (er, keeps) on reminding me unnecessarily (do I know what bisexuality means, hmm?).  Still, it contradicts something for homosexual Shep, plus even bi Shep may wish to remain celibate if we want no cheating (with or without quotation marks), right?

On the whole, though, I agree that having the option per se wouldn't contradict much, if anything, in Shep's character.  I think it would all depend on how it was implemented.  It would be possible to write it in a way so as to contradict some things, but also to write it otherwise.  One hopes the writers would try for the maximum amount of internal consistency for Shepard.

Modifié par Estelindis, 28 juin 2011 - 02:45 .

[shepskisaac]

Estelindis wrote...
This idealistic claim unfortunately ignores the fair few differences between the ways the genders are treated in the Mass Effect franchise.  Female bi- or ******-sexuality is treated as acceptable in a way that the male version is not; from an alternative point of view, it's regarded as sufficiently interesting to the heterosexual male gaze that the devs were able to get away with putting it in the game because they knew a sufficently large proportion of their biggest fan demographic wouldn't mind.  Also, as I said before, there are significant differences in the way the LIs for male and female Shepard are portrayed: most notably, in my opinion, the fact that all male LIs for Shepard mention some past romantic history, whereas a number of female LIs for Shepard have had no romantic or sexual experience before falling in love with Shepard.  It's as if they feel female Shepard won't mind her men having past experience, or will actually expect it of them (that they should have some practice/experience to be worthy of her), whereas for quite a few (e.g. Tali, Liara) male Shepard is portrayed as the senior, experienced partner who is ready to show/teach the inexperienced woman everything.  We may wish to be able to draw a simple equivalence between all aspects of male and female Shepard, but the way the writers have treated the sexes in the game thus far does not allow us to do so completely.

It confirms one thing - heteronormative bias form the writers. Bias ain't a logic though. When logic prevails, even the author's word cannot neglect it. If George Lucas made a mistake counting Darth Vader's age, logic and facts would be more important than the author's word. In our case, the logic is that Shepard cannot have pre-established sexuality if there's any possibility to engage in homosexual relationships, no matter if female hoosexual relationship or male ones. If that's not what the author intented, then it's his fault because he created the situation in the first place.

[Estelindis]

Well said and thank you for an interesting debate!

[AngelicMachinery]

Estelindis wrote...

Well said and thank you for an interesting debate!

Alright,  this has been bothering me.  I may have come off a bit angry which M have to appologize for.  I don't agree with your oppinion and I will be the first to admit I can be a little sensitive sometimes but I had no right to come off as rude.

[keekee53]

This argument is so annoying. Honestly, you can perceive whatever you want Bioware did not allow Maleshep to have a romance with Kaidan in ME1 which makes him heterosexual. If they wanted Kaidan to be bisexual they should have done it in ME1. To change it in ME3 is stupid.

I really hope Bioware does not start rewriting characters. I am not holding my breath though. Yes, it will be a rewrite because he was NOT bisexual in the first game despite all the excuses people come up with. I can make up crap about the rest of the characters and come to the same conclusion. The fact of the matter is Bioware released ME1 with Kaidan and Ashley heterosexuals. There should really be a limit on the fanservice. My faith in this gaming company is dwindling. Bring in new characters for bisexuals please.

[Estelindis]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Alright,  this has been bothering me.  I may have come off a bit angry which M have to appologize for.  I don't agree with your oppinion and I will be the first to admit I can be a little sensitive sometimes but I had no right to come off as rude.

Thank you for saying so.  Everyone speaks (or types) with some heated feelings at times, but not everyone reflects back on these moments afterwards and offers reconciliation.  I have immense respect for anyone who does.  Again, thank you.

For my own part, Isaac's persistent and well-reasoned arguments made me reconsider some of my own views, so this has been a learning experience for me, and I'm grateful for that as well.  :-)

Modifié par Estelindis, 28 juin 2011 - 03:01 .

[shepskisaac]

keekee53 wrote...
 If they wanted Kaidan to be bisexual they should have done it in ME1.

They wanted, they didn't have enough time to create s/s romance for him (and for Ashley).

keekee53 wrote...
Yes, it will be a rewrite because he was NOT bisexual in the first game despite all the excuses people come up with.

He was NOT established as non-bisexual despite any excuse you come up with. If you can quote his line where he turns ManShep down or says he's not interested in any men, then he'll be established heterosexual.

[Siansonea]

keekee53 wrote...

This argument is so annoying. Honestly, you can perceive whatever you want Bioware did not allow Maleshep to have a romance with Kaidan in ME1 which makes him heterosexual. If they wanted Kaidan to be bisexual they should have done it in ME1. To change it in ME3 is stupid.

I really hope Bioware does not start rewriting characters. I am not holding my breath though. Yes, it will be a rewrite because he was NOT bisexual in the first game despite all the excuses people come up with. I can make up crap about the rest of the characters and come to the same conclusion. The fact of the matter is Bioware released ME1 with Kaidan and Ashley heterosexuals. There should really be a limit on the fanservice. My faith in this gaming company is dwindling. Bring in new characters for bisexuals please.

Ah yes, the "limit on fanservice". Usually that means "me and no one else".

[shepskisaac]

Siansonea II wrote...
Ah yes, the "limit on fanservice". Usually that means "me and no one else".

Not to mention removing an option someone doesn't want is also a fanservice. BW does something someone demans = fanservice

[Time4Tiddy]

keekee53 wrote...

This argument is so annoying. Honestly, you can perceive whatever you want Bioware did not allow Maleshep to have a romance with Kaidan in ME1 which makes him heterosexual. If they wanted Kaidan to be bisexual they should have done it in ME1. To change it in ME3 is stupid.

I really hope Bioware does not start rewriting characters. I am not holding my breath though. Yes, it will be a rewrite because he was NOT bisexual in the first game despite all the excuses people come up with. I can make up crap about the rest of the characters and come to the same conclusion. The fact of the matter is Bioware released ME1 with Kaidan and Ashley heterosexuals. There should really be a limit on the fanservice. My faith in this gaming company is dwindling. Bring in new characters for bisexuals please.

Yes, it's the end of Bioware's integrity.  An optional romance that might have 4-5 minutes total of optional dialogue, and maybe one or two kissing/caressing scenes that you'll have to work really really hard to see.  I can see how you'd lose all respect for a company that would put in such impossible to avoid content, especially when it is really only catering to four or five out of control fangays.

[Time4Tiddy]

Just as a sidenote, if you are so worried about any retcons to Kaidan, kill him on Virmire and be done with it. Your super straight and studly manShep no doubt wanted to keep Ashley around anyway (for her mind), so I don't see how it's going to affect your game in the slightest.

[Siansonea]

Yeah, it amazes me how many people don't know how to play Manly Man Douchebag Shepard. It's a no brainer. Literally. Kill any dude who uses the word "brain". Kill any dude with a better body than you. Talk to WOMEN. Bang said women. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Geez, I'm a straight woman and even I know how to roleplay an as$hat Shepard.

[bleetman]

keekee53 wrote...

This argument is so annoying. Honestly, you can perceive whatever you want Bioware did not allow Maleshep to have a romance with Kaidan in ME1 which makes him heterosexual. If they wanted Kaidan to be bisexual they should have done it in ME1. To change it in ME3 is stupid.

I really hope Bioware does not start rewriting characters. I am not holding my breath though. Yes, it will be a rewrite because he was NOT bisexual in the first game despite all the excuses people come up with. I can make up crap about the rest of the characters and come to the same conclusion. The fact of the matter is Bioware released ME1 with Kaidan and Ashley heterosexuals. There should really be a limit on the fanservice. My faith in this gaming company is dwindling. Bring in new characters for bisexuals please.

Point of interest, I wasn't personally bi-sexual until I started being bi-sexual. It's sort of how these things tend to work.

[Medhia Nox]

@Siansonea - you got one part wrong. Manly Man Douchebag Shepard doesn't "talk" to women... he "takes" women. They're so smitten with his manly manness - that they swoon and fall into his burly manly man arms... and declare their ultimate devotion to his manness.

That's what all straight guys want... and I know you know this.

[J. Finley]

To be honest, I could see Kaidan being bi over any of the other existing characters, especially Garrus.

[AngelicMachinery]

Garrus in S/S threads makes me giggle now. It's glorious.

[Medhia Nox]

@AngelicMachinery: Well he is a bird-race... and, my avatar is a giant..... poultry. So, it'll work out.

[keekee53]

bleetman wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

This argument is so annoying. Honestly, you can perceive whatever you want Bioware did not allow Maleshep to have a romance with Kaidan in ME1 which makes him heterosexual. If they wanted Kaidan to be bisexual they should have done it in ME1. To change it in ME3 is stupid.

I really hope Bioware does not start rewriting characters. I am not holding my breath though. Yes, it will be a rewrite because he was NOT bisexual in the first game despite all the excuses people come up with. I can make up crap about the rest of the characters and come to the same conclusion. The fact of the matter is Bioware released ME1 with Kaidan and Ashley heterosexuals. There should really be a limit on the fanservice. My faith in this gaming company is dwindling. Bring in new characters for bisexuals please.

Point of interest, I wasn't personally bi-sexual until I started being bi-sexual. It's sort of how these things tend to work.

Understood.  People are just not going to see eye to eye on this topic.  I will go with whatever Bioware decides, but they really need to look at how they do romances going forward. 

Honestly, if the table was turned and Kaidan started out gay in ME1 and they wanted to make him bisexual in ME3, I would be just as annoyed.  What it boils down to is not the sexuality of the character but what character Bioware established in my mind through what they allowed in the game.

[Siansonea]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Siansonea - you got one part wrong. Manly Man Douchebag Shepard doesn't "talk" to women... he "takes" women. They're so smitten with his manly manness - that they swoon and fall into his burly manly man arms... and declare their ultimate devotion to his manness.

That's what all straight guys want... and I know you know this.

Yeah, no surprise there. And by "talk" to women, I meant for Shepard to stand and look in the woman's general direction while SHE talks, and to grunt noncomittally at regular intervals. The woman is to then swoon, say something about how manly Shepard is, how this is unlike her, how normally she's a very strong woman, but something about Shepard, just makes her so weak...aaaaand boobs come out.

Yeah, I know how the male mind works. It's not difficult to figure out.

[falconlord5]

Siansonea II wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Siansonea - you got one part wrong. Manly Man Douchebag Shepard doesn't "talk" to women... he "takes" women. They're so smitten with his manly manness - that they swoon and fall into his burly manly man arms... and declare their ultimate devotion to his manness.

That's what all straight guys want... and I know you know this.

Yeah, no surprise there. And by "talk" to women, I meant for Shepard to stand and look in the woman's general direction while SHE talks, and to grunt noncomittally at regular intervals. The woman is to then swoon, say something about how manly Shepard is, how this is unlike her, how normally she's a very strong woman, but something about Shepard, just makes her so weak...aaaaand boobs come out.

Yeah, I know how the male mind works. It's not difficult to figure out.

In defence of my gender: hey!