889 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...

ME1 Male Shepard uses Seduce Kaidan.
Kaidan is immune!

If he was intended to be bisexual, why wasn't he? As a character in a narrative, if the developers intended him to be bisexual, they would have done so. I'm not saying that if he was a real person he couldn't have been hiding it, etc., but if you're making a game with romancable characters, if you wanted a character to be bisexual... why wouldn't they be?

ME1 Male Shepard CAN'T seduce Kaidan.  There is no option to do so.  So technically, by your logic, isn't male Shepard's sudden sexuality change a retcon, as well?

-- oh no people can change their minds over time?  My immersion, she is ruined!

Bearbeitet von RinjiRenee, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:38 .

[Ryzaki]

HopHazzard wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

And a bisexual Kaidan would have been the same thing as a heterosexual Kaidan... if he was bisexual in the first place. He wasn't. Thus, Kaidan is heterosexual. If he wanted to make his move, he would have. To have him do so now simply to pander to forumites would be exceedingly incredulous.

If they do it, it won't be the first time they've written a romance to pander to the fans. It also probably won't be the last.

*coughTALIMANCEcough*

Bearbeitet von Ryzaki, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:38 .

[upsettingshorts]

Berkilak wrote...

If he was intended to be bisexual, why wasn't he? As a character in a narrative, if the developers intended him to be bisexual, they would have done so. I'm not saying that if he was a real person he couldn't have been hiding it, etc., but if you're making a game with romancable characters, if you wanted a character to be bisexual... why wouldn't they be?

Correlation does not equal causation.  They teach this in anthropology, yes?  That Kaidan was not romanceable by male Shepards in ME1 could have another explanation, such as zots.  The fact Mark Meer recorded dialogue for a M/M romance indicates an intent to make Kaidan bisexual was present at some point in the development process.

That is of course, not the issue.  The issue is:  Are the number of possible reasons why Kaidan - the character, not the element of the game requiring zots - may not have been interested in ManShep in ME1 but is interested in ME3 greater than zero?  If the answer to that is yes, and I believe that any reasonable person would ultimately conclude that it is, then it is not an unreasonable course of action for the developers to make it an option. 

RinjiRenee wrote...

ME1 Male Shepard CAN'T seduce Kaidan.  So technically, by your logic, isn't Shepard's sudden sexuality change a retcon, as well?

-- oh no people can change their minds over time?

Also, that. 

Bearbeitet von Upsettingshorts, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:40 .

[Berkilak]

HopHazzard wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

And a bisexual Kaidan would have been the same thing as a heterosexual Kaidan... if he was bisexual in the first place. He wasn't. Thus, Kaidan is heterosexual. If he wanted to make his move, he would have. To have him do so now simply to pander to forumites would be exceedingly incredulous.

If they do it, it won't be the first time they've written a romance to pander to the fans. It also probably won't be the last.

And, unfortunately, it wouldn't be the best romance, either. Much like Anders. Fans demanded it, and what they got was one of the most shallow romances in all of BioWaredom. I don't want to see that happen to Kaidan.

[StarsInMyEyes]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about, if you don't want a s/s romance don't have one, is this too simple to understand?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...
And, unfortunately, it wouldn't be the best romance, either. Much like Anders. Fans demanded it, and what they got was one of the most shallow romances in all of BioWaredom. I don't want to see that happen to Kaidan.

Shallow because he made an unwanted advance or...?

Bearbeitet von RinjiRenee, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:40 .

[Berkilak]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

ME1 Male Shepard uses Seduce Kaidan.
Kaidan is immune!

If he was intended to be bisexual, why wasn't he? As a character in a narrative, if the developers intended him to be bisexual, they would have done so. I'm not saying that if he was a real person he couldn't have been hiding it, etc., but if you're making a game with romancable characters, if you wanted a character to be bisexual... why wouldn't they be?

ME1 Male Shepard CAN'T seduce Kaidan.  There is no option to do so.  So technically, by your logic, isn't male Shepard's sudden sexuality change a retcon, as well?

-- oh no people can change their minds over time?  My immersion, she is ruined!

Quite frankly, yes, I would think that Shepard's sexuality could possibily be a retcon, but as a vehicle for the player and as varied as the people who play as him/her, one that is entirely plausible.

[BatmanPWNS]

Oh god another straight vs. bisexual/homosexual war!

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...
Quite frankly, yes, I would think that Shepard's sexuality could possibily be a retcon, but as a vehicle for the player and as varied as the people who play as him/her, one that is entirely plausible.

So Male!Shepard can have a change of heart, but a character other than Shepard cannot be changed?

Bearbeitet von RinjiRenee, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:42 .

[Hydralisk]

Think of him as either Straight, Gay or Bi! he is only one of them if you choose to make it so.

Bearbeitet von Hydralisk, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:42 .

[ElitePinecone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But there are zots to consider.  I personally have zero interest whatsoever in S/S romances in ME3 or any other BioWare game, but in recognizing that others do, I wholeheartedly endorse giving them access to it in a manner which requires the least amount of zots.  Which is, quite simply, to make love interests bisexual (or ProtagonistSexual).  It's not "shallow,"  it makes efficient use of limited resources to appeal to the broadest possible customer base.

It doesn't harm me in the least, and it lets people who prefer S/S romances enjoy the love-interest content just as I do.  Those who do claim it harms them need - and often, immediately have - their motivations scrutinized.

Personally, I find many of the arguments against S/S inclusion in BioWare games as inherently selfish, considering that those in favor of them simply ask to be able to experience romance storylines with the same relatability and sexual preference that others in the majority take for granted.

Keep in mind that when you argue for a new gay (or even a new bisexual) character to be written to "appeal to the S/S crowd" you are endorsing directing zots away from existing characters to new ones for the express purpose of giving "those people" someone to sleep with.  I maintain it is in the interests of players who have little to no interest in S/S romances to support ProtagonistSexual or bisexual love interests because it costs few zots to accomplish an inclusive goal.

This - and rather elegantly, to boot. 

As to why some people are arguing for Kaidan so much - because he's a good character? 

Moreover, just because he declined Shepard's advances in ME doesn't mean he's exclusively heterosexual.

He's exclusively heterosexual when he says he is. There are a thousand reasons for not approaching or responding to Shepard before - fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, emotional baggage. Whatever. 

Were Tali and Garrus at all interested in Shepard in ME? No? 

Did they have compelling, well-written reasons for changing this in ME2? Arguably, yes. 

Kaidan would be the same in ME3, if he were to be an LI. I suspect he will be. 

tl;dr: Kaidan isn't heterosexual and he's just as viable an option for ME3 as Tali and Garrus were for ME2. If you're against one you have to be against the other. There's about as much evidence for both romances beind present in the first game. 

[HeavenStar]

Berkilak wrote...

Where did I state that sexuality determines (the popular definition of) personality? It is merely an aspect of personality.

Agreed. Although I think sexuality doesn't 'always' affect personality.

Back to the topic, though, why would people not 'gun' an s/s romance for Kaidan? He's a nice-looking character with good personality (at least to some people), so it's only natural that his character will appeal to some people, straight, gay and bi.

[Berkilak]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The fact Mark Meer recorded dialogue for a M/M romance indicates an intent to make Kaidan bisexual was present at some point in the development process.

Completely unaware of that. If the fact that he was not bisexual in ME1 was a result of time constraints rather than developer intent, I fully support that bisexuality coming out in ME3.

[Sierra Crysis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In a perfect world, sure.

But there are zots to consider.  I personally have zero interest whatsoever in S/S romances in ME3 or any other BioWare game, but in recognizing that others do, I wholeheartedly endorse giving them access to it in a manner which requires the least amount of zots.  Which is, quite simply, to make love interests bisexual (or ProtagonistSexual).  It's not "shallow,"  it makes efficient use of limited resources to appeal to the broadest possible customer base.

It doesn't harm me in the least, and it lets people who prefer S/S romances enjoy the love-interest content just as I do.  Those who do claim it harms them need - and often, immediately have - their motivations scrutinized.

Personally, I find many of the arguments against S/S inclusion in BioWare games as inherently selfish, considering that those in favor of them simply ask to be able to experience romance storylines with the same relatability and sexual preference that others in the majority take for granted.

Keep in mind that when you argue for a new gay (or even a new bisexual) character to be written to "appeal to the S/S crowd" you are endorsing directing zots away from existing characters to new ones for the express purpose of giving "those people" someone to sleep with.  I maintain it is in the interests of players who have little to no interest in S/S romances to support ProtagonistSexual or bisexual love interests because it costs few zots to accomplish an inclusive goal.

Let me start off by saying that, over my course of time posting here that you have been the voice of reason among posters and threads in countless games we've waited for, and I seriously get where you're coming from, infact I'm all for S/S too. As a female and female Shepard player, a S/S with Kaiden doesn't apply to me, but what worries me the most about this is the Anders' effect. I wasn't big on them making Anders bi in DA2, and they did and I shrugged and thought, well, surely they'll do it okay. But what they did to him, whether it was because of the orientation or not was literally suck the charm and fun, and testosterone out of the character completely.

Now, I may be wrong to assume that making him bisexual was the cause of this personality change, given he did bind with Justice and become all weighted down and sad, but to me it just seemed like they changed him to fit the emotional niche in romances and because LIs in general are submissive to the protagonist, much more so to the male protagonist. They did everything but make him limp-wristed. Finally, the lines from gender to gender didn't change, and that just... Yeah it may be meta-gaming, but there's just something that irks me about being cooed to in the exact same fashion that catches awesome-beard guy Hawke.

So yes, Bisexual characters... Bring them on, but I disgress, don't change who they are.. I still want strong headed, sympathetic, cute, and funny Kaiden back.. I don't want him to suddenly be castrated, infact, with his Spectre status he should be even more aggressive, because there's just something about LIs that arn't dominated and instead actively pursue it after being cued. Personally, I don't think that the VS will be the bisexual romance because it is content alot of "New" players won't recieve, and that is something that Bioware bats hard for every new game.

[Berkilak]

HeavenStar wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Where did I state that sexuality determines (the popular definition of) personality? It is merely an aspect of personality.

Agreed. Although I think sexuality doesn't 'always' affect personality.

Back to the topic, though, why would people not 'gun' an s/s romance for Kaidan? He's a nice-looking character with good personality (at least to some people), so it's only natural that his character will appeal to some people, straight, gay and bi.

Never said that it affected it. Simply that it was an aspect of it. I know quite a few gay guys, and none of them are hand-flappers.

And I don't doubt that he appeals to people of all sexualities - I romanced him myself on a Female Shepard. But he displayed absolutely no interest in the male Shepard (in-game). I'm being told that it was the developer's intent to have him as a bisexual in the first game, however. That completely changes my opinion.

DA2 just burned me on incredibly forced, shallow romances that served no narrative purpose other to pander to fans and unlock achievements. Developing a character in a manner other than the original intent generally steers the story to that shallowness.

[Siansonea]

This fan community, I swear. 

After ME1 came out, every XY person on the boards below a certain age called Kaidan a "wuss" and made all sorts of disparaging remarks about his sexuality, implying that he was gay. Snicker snicker. 

Now that there's a possibility of him being a bisexual character, a lot of the same demographic is running to the ramparts to defend Kaidan's stringent and exclusive heterosexuality.

Personally, there was never enough content in the game, one way or the other, to be able to definitively state "Kaidan HAS to be exclusively heterosexual" OR "Kaidan HAS to be bisexual". BioWare can go either way on this character as far as I'm concerned, and I am just glad that Shepard will finally have an m/m romance option, even if it's a new character. 

But the question remains: Why does anyone care so much that Kaidan remain "straight"? Why is THIS the place they draw the line in the sand regarding characterization? After all, romance storylines, as we all know, are only available to those characters romancing Shepard. If you're not romancing Kaidan, what difference does it make? You won't see any of the "gay" content. Bromance unaffected.

Seriously, if "retconning" and glaring discontinuity is the objection, I can find MUCH more egregious examples of this in the game that plain ol' Bisexual Kaidan. Talk about picking your battles...<_<

Bearbeitet von Siansonea II, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:49 .

[ipgd]

amcnow wrote...


I agree.  There are other avenues for homosexuality.  There's no need for retcon of this sort on recurring characters.

Oh boy oh boy.

Retcon is a specific word refering to a specific kind of change. To constitute a retcon, a change has to directly contradict a previously established fact of the continuity and retroactively assert its reality over the previous one.

Because Kaidan has never actually fully established his sexuality -- he only confers an opinion on women, and makes no statements or actions whatsoever that would indicate his stance on sexual relations with men, positive or negative or otherwise -- there are no established facts of the continuity to contradict. Through metagame knowledge, we may assume that Kaidan is straight and thus see this as a mechanical change, but it is not a retcon. Retcons refer exclusively to in-world facts explicitly established through text. Your assumptions, inferences and wild mass guesses are not established facts. When a change contradicts your assumptions, it is a change that contradicts your assumptions, but it is not always a retcon.

To be a retcon, Kaidan would have to have explicitly stated or demonstrated at some point, in the game, that he had no interest in men. Furthermore, the change would have to assert that that statement never even happened. If Kaidan were to have stated that he had no interest in men, but in ME3 becomes willing to engage in a relationship with a male Shepard and justified that attraction with an explanation like "YOU ARE SO SPECIAL SHEPARD THAT I'M WILLING TO BANG YOU EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT USUALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN JUST LIKE GARRUS ISN'T INTO HUMANS BUT BANGS FEMALE SHEPARD ANYWAY" or "I was lying because I was insecure/embarrassed/confused" or even "I inhaled a magical space spore and now I want to **** EVERYTHING", it would still not be a retcon because those explanations would explicitly acknowledge and reinforce the existence of previously established facts in the continuity (i.e. that Kaidan had made statements expressing a disinterest in men).

Yet again, retcon does not mean "any change I don't like". A change can be an asspull, a wallbanger, a god-awful franchise destroying jumping of the shark without being a retcon. You can express your disgruntled sentiments without raping a perfectly useful word. Stop using it to mean anything you want it to.

[Berkilak]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But there are zots to consider.  I personally have zero interest whatsoever in S/S romances in ME3 or any other BioWare game, but in recognizing that others do, I wholeheartedly endorse giving them access to it in a manner which requires the least amount of zots.  Which is, quite simply, to make love interests bisexual (or ProtagonistSexual).  It's not "shallow,"  it makes efficient use of limited resources to appeal to the broadest possible customer base.

It doesn't harm me in the least, and it lets people who prefer S/S romances enjoy the love-interest content just as I do.  Those who do claim it harms them need - and often, immediately have - their motivations scrutinized.

Personally, I find many of the arguments against S/S inclusion in BioWare games as inherently selfish, considering that those in favor of them simply ask to be able to experience romance storylines with the same relatability and sexual preference that others in the majority take for granted.

Keep in mind that when you argue for a new gay (or even a new bisexual) character to be written to "appeal to the S/S crowd" you are endorsing directing zots away from existing characters to new ones for the express purpose of giving "those people" someone to sleep with.  I maintain it is in the interests of players who have little to no interest in S/S romances to support ProtagonistSexual or bisexual love interests because it costs few zots to accomplish an inclusive goal.

This - and rather elegantly, to boot. 

As to why some people are arguing for Kaidan so much - because he's a good character? 

Moreover, just because he declined Shepard's advances in ME doesn't mean he's exclusively heterosexual.

He's exclusively heterosexual when he says he is. There are a thousand reasons for not approaching or responding to Shepard before - fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, emotional baggage. Whatever. 

Were Tali and Garrus at all interested in Shepard in ME? No? 

Did they have compelling, well-written reasons for changing this in ME2? Arguably, yes. 

Kaidan would be the same in ME3, if he were to be an LI. I suspect he will be. 

tl;dr: Kaidan isn't heterosexual and he's just as viable an option for ME3 as Tali and Garrus were for ME2. If you're against one you have to be against the other. There's about as much evidence for both romances beind present in the first game. 

Female Shepard. Male Shepard. Both have the exactly same dialogue, intonations, personalities and actions. Kaidan was interested in one and not the other. Your TL;DR is very flawed logic.

[ipgd]

Berkilak wrote...

And, unfortunately, it wouldn't be the best romance, either. Much like Anders. Fans demanded it, and what they got was one of the most shallow romances in all of BioWaredom. I don't want to see that happen to Kaidan.

You've never actually played the Anders romance, have you?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...
Female Shepard. Male Shepard. Both have the exactly same dialogue, intonations, personalities and actions. Kaidan was interested in one and not the other. Your TL;DR is very flawed logic.

He is interested in women, but until you can produce evidence that he ever said "I am not interested in men, from now until forever and ever," him being bisexual in ME3 is not and never will be a retcon.

[upsettingshorts]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

 I wasn't big on them making Anders bi in DA2, and they did and I shrugged and thought, well, surely they'll do it okay. But what they did to him, whether it was because of the orientation or not was literally suck the charm and fun, and testosterone out of the character completely.

I thought it was obvious that his change in personality had nothing to do with his broad sexual preference and everything to do with the fact his consciousness had merged with a spirit from the Fade,  and it wasn't a spirit of Irreverent Fun. That said, much of that charm, fun, and testosterone if you put it seems, in hindsight - like a front, a coping mechanism for his own bitterness and resentment - things the presence of Justice altered in a very real way into motivation for action.  

That and, you know, they changed VAs for - I believe - zots reasons. 

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Finally, the lines from gender to gender didn't change, and that just... Yeah it may be meta-gaming, but there's just something that irks me about being cooed to in the exact same fashion that catches awesome-beard guy Hawke.

I believe if you said this in the Anders thread you'd spark a not-insignificantly heated debate over which romance gets the better lines and attitude in general.  The most obvious example is when romancing a female Hawke, Anders really hammers home the whole "I will hurt you, you should get away" idea.  But that said, I didn't romance Anders personally - as either sex - and will defer to others on the specifics of how the romance changes.

Sierra Crysis wrote...

So yes, Bisexual characters... Bring them on, but I disgress, don't change who they are.. I still want strong headed, sympathetic, cute, and funny Kaiden back.. I don't want him to suddenly be castrated, infact, with his Spectre status he should be even more aggressive, because there's just something about LIs that arn't dominated and instead actively pursue it after being cued. .

This is a fair point but as you said they tend to do this to a lot of the LIs - if not all of them - because of the nature of how romances must play out in these games so that players do not feel "uncomfortable" or "ninjamanced."  The control must therefore be exclusively in the hands of the player.  I'm not sure precisely how making the Kaidanmance - as it were - accessible to both male and female Shepards would change that model dramatically. 

[Berkilak]

Siansonea II wrote...

This fan community, I swear. 

After ME1 came out, every XY person on the boards below a certain age called Kaidan a "wuss" and made all sorts of disparaging remarks about his sexuality, implying that he was gay. Snicker snicker. 

Now that there's a possibility of him being a bisexual character, a lot of the same demographic is running to the ramparts to defend Kaidan's stringent and exclusive heterosexuality.

Personally, there was never enough content in the game, one way or the other, to be able to definitively state "Kaidan HAS to be exclusively heterosexual" OR "Kaidan HAS to be bisexual". BioWare can go either way on this character as far as I'm concerned, and I am just glad that Shepard will finally have an m/m romance option, even if it's a new character. 

But the question remains: Why does anyone care so much that Kaidan remain "straight"? Why is THIS the place they draw the line in the sand regarding characterization? After all, romance storylines, as we all know, are only available to those characters romancing Shepard. If you're not romancing Kaidan, what difference does it make? You won't see any of the "gay" content. Bromance unaffected.

Seriously, if "retconning" and glaring discontinuity is the objection, I can find MUCH more egregious examples of this in the game that plain ol' Bisexual Kaidan. Talk about picking your battles...<_<

I take great offense at your implication that I would ever use a particular sexuality to refer to someone disparagingly. All I'm stating is that Kaidan responds to female Shepard and not male Shepard, and the only difference between the characters was between their legs. Same personality, same actions, same circumstances, same dialogue... different gender. The only reason he acted on one romance and not the other was because of gender.

It's been mentioned that it was intended for him to be bisexual. If so, great. If not... just be careful what you wish for, if Anders is any indication.

[StarsInMyEyes]

I can't believe people think this way, this is 2011, why all the lack of knowledge and hate, i just joined today and i am in shock as to what I have read so far, this is medieval thinking at best, shall we all be forced to where a scarlet G on our armor. It is a game, the people are not real, and if they were real they have a RIGHT to choose their love interest, instead WE choose it for them.

[Ryzaki]

Berkilak wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The fact Mark Meer recorded dialogue for a M/M romance indicates an intent to make Kaidan bisexual was present at some point in the development process.

Completely unaware of that. If the fact that he was not bisexual in ME1 was a result of time constraints rather than developer intent, I fully support that bisexuality coming out in ME3.

The lines recorded didn't do justice to the characters according to Weekes so the devs decided not to use the lines.(and sounded unusual and they didn't want to do the m/m version of the lovescene since it would've been more than copy and paste. ) 

The time constraints came from someone who *didn't* work on ME1.  

Bearbeitet von Ryzaki, 27 Juni 2011 - 03:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

Berkilak wrote...

If so, great. If not... just be careful what you wish for, if Anders is any indication.

I struggle to think of what is objectively wrong with Anders' romances, either of them, in Dragon Age 2.