889 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

RinjiRenee wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I hate to bring up Anders again but... why not?  Trolololol.

What about Anders?  Anders from Dragon Age: Awakening and DA2 are too different from each other to be the same character.

*Sigh* No he isn't.  You just failed to see the transition.  And it's not as if Justice suddenly make him crave manmeat.

Anders isn't that same because nothing about him is the same.  It isn't just that his sexuality is different.  When I played the game the first time it seemed to me that they had a different character planned and then inserted Anders in order to have a character from DA: Awakening be in DA2.

[upsettingshorts]

NICKjnp wrote...

Anders isn't that same because nothing about him is the same.  It isn't just that his sexuality is different.  When I played the game the first time it seemed to me that they had a different character planned and then inserted Anders in order to have a character from DA: Awakening be in DA2.

I'd respond with something more substantial, but it's like you played two totally different games so I wouldn't know where to start. 

[ipgd]

NICKjnp wrote...

Anders isn't that same because nothing about him is the same.  It isn't just that his sexuality is different.  When I played the game the first time it seemed to me that they had a different character planned and then inserted Anders in order to have a character from DA: Awakening be in DA2.

Do I need to post the "they planned this all along" Justice banters? Again?

[Rinji the Bearded]

NICKjnp wrote...

Anders isn't that same because nothing about him is the same.  It isn't just that his sexuality is different.  When I played the game the first time it seemed to me that they had a different character planned and then inserted Anders in order to have a character from DA: Awakening be in DA2.

People change within a narrative?!  HOLD THE **** UP.

... No seriously, if you didn't pick up on the hints in DA:A, I can't help you there.

ipgd wrote...

Do I need to post the "they planned this all along" Justice banters? Again?

Do it. I don't think he gets it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 28 juin 2011 - 02:19 .

[NICKjnp]

Since people don't want to play nice then I'll just bow out gracefull from the conversation.

[who would know]

There goes my comment.

Devoured by this hopelessly off topic cluster**** in just over 20 minutes.

[ipgd]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Do it. I don't think he gets it.

Here:

    * Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
    * Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
    * Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
    * Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
    * Anders: But what do they want from mages?
    * Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

    * Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
    * Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
    * Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
    * Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
    * Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
    * Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.

    * Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
    * Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
    * Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
    * Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
    * Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
    * Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

    * Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
    * Justice: I said no such thing.
    * Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
    * Justice: I have no such desires.
    * Anders: You must have some desires...
    * Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

    * Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
    * Justice: I should certainly hope not.
    * Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
    * Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
    * Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
    * Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

    * Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
    * Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
    * Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
    * Justice: Do you think that's possible?
    * Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
    * Justice: I could, if I chose to.
    * Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
    * Justice: I... do not know anymore.

    * Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
    * Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
    * Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
    * Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
    * Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
    * Justice: Your objection is noted.

    * Nathaniel: Will you ever need to switch bodies, Justice?
    * Justice: I did not even wish to possess this one. Why would I switch to another?
    * Nathaniel: You might need to. Unless you wish to look even more obviously like a corpse.
    * Justice: I...would prefer not to think of it.

    * Justice: This... thing you spoke of. Switching bodies.
    * Nathaniel: Not a favorite topic of yours, I take it?
    * Justice: Would such a thing be permitted? Would it not be considered... abominable?
    * Nathaniel: If they're dead, it's not as if they need the body, Justice.
    * Justice: But I can still feel the man who once lived. I know his body, his... It is not just a body.
    * Nathaniel: That's...good, isn't it? I'd rather you felt that way.
    * Justice: Perhaps you are right.

    * Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
    * Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
    * Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
    * Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
    * Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.
    * Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

And then this gem:

"That ballista is conveniently placed, isn’t it? Well, I’m always up for a spot of iconoclasm!"

OH MAN THAT TOTALLY CAME OUT OF LEFT FIELD

[Zeratul20]

RinjiRenee wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Anders isn't that same because nothing about him is the same.  It isn't just that his sexuality is different.  When I played the game the first time it seemed to me that they had a different character planned and then inserted Anders in order to have a character from DA: Awakening be in DA2.

People change within a narrative?!  HOLD THE **** UP.

... No seriously, if you didn't pick up on the hints in DA:A, I can't help you there.

Well, to be fair, you were able to direct Anders' anger in DA: O - A, which is somewhat neglected in DA II. No matter how you treated him or how he evolved during DA: O - A, he's always rather bitter in DA II, I believe.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you were able to direct Anders' anger in DA: O - A, which is somewhat neglected in DA II. No matter how you treated him or how he evolved during DA: O - A, he's always rather bitter in DA II, I believe.

Kinda happened when the Wardens screwed him over between the two games.  I'm sure if that hadn't happened, he wouldn't have been so upset.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 28 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[ElitePinecone]

I do appreciate that it's more likely that Kaidan is heterosexual and not bisexual.

And that every indication and inclination we've ever seen is that he's heterosexual.

But he's never said he is. Bioware have never said he is.

Up until that point, it's not out of the question that he can be written as bisexual. Unlikely? Maybe.

But definitely possible, if Bioware choose to do so. I'm confident that if they chose such an option, it would be written well.

Note: This isn't an attempt to say that everybody is bisexual and no character can be heterosexual. That's just nonsense. But it's only logical that a character who has only ever expressed interest in one sex can also be bisexual - there's a lot of the characters' lives that we never get to see. It may well be that Kaidan is heterosexual, it's more likely that he's heterosexual, but the possibility for his being bisexual still exists. While it still exists, Bioware can use it.

[Berkilak]

Well, if this topic is going to keep on going, may as well redirect it to the topic at hand instead of Anders.

If BioWare dropped so many hints as to Ander's shift, where are the Kaidan hints?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...

Well, if this topic is going to keep on going, may as well redirect it to the topic at hand instead of Anders.

If BioWare dropped so many hints as to Ander's shift, where are the Kaidan hints?

Anders didn't shift to bisexuality, we were merely pointing out that Anders was the same character in DA:A and DAII.

Gaider and Helper pretty much confirmed he was always bisexual.  He is Gaider's brain child, and he gave Helper the reigns for him in DA2, which he applauded her for.

If the writer for Kaidan wants to make him bisexual for ME3, it's their prerogative.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 28 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[ipgd]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you were able to direct Anders' anger in DA: O - A, which is somewhat neglected in DA II. No matter how you treated him or how he evolved during DA: O - A, he's always rather bitter in DA II, I believe.

I don't think a few pep talks are going to significantly impact the bitterness derived from a life spent in a self-perceived state of imprisonment, plus a full year in spent in solitary confinement. Plus, you know, the whole "merged with a spirit" thing.

[upsettingshorts]

Berkilak wrote...

Well, if this topic is going to keep on going, may as well redirect it to the topic at hand instead of Anders.

If BioWare dropped so many hints as to Ander's shift, where are the Kaidan hints?

They're wildly different, and I actually don't think they make good comparisons.  Critics of any "changes" at all to Kaidan's character simply keep pointing to Anders as some kind of example of a poor, out-of-nowhere change, and it isn't.

Anders' change demanded hints because it was dramatic, worldstate-changing, and incredibly important.

With Kaidan all we're talking about is the idea that he might actually be into dudes now.

[Roachbugg]

Must I keep saying Kaidan was originally meant to be bi thus it give bioware every right to make the character as the originally envisioned?

[Siansonea]

Ah yes, Anders' sexuality, a veritable FIRESTORM of controversy. Never mind that Anders in Awakenings is an ordinary human mage, and Anders in DA2 is an abomination/fusion of TWO previous characters, Anders and Justice. But we've been over this.

The fact that Anders could be DEAD in an imported save, that one is a much smaller firestorm it seems. *crickets*

So, easily explained "change" ignites thousands of words of bickering, and OBVIOUS RETCON is relegated to "oh yeah, that sucks too." Priorities!

What IS up with that?

[Zeratul20]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

Well, to be fair, you were able to direct Anders' anger in DA: O - A, which is somewhat neglected in DA II. No matter how you treated him or how he evolved during DA: O - A, he's always rather bitter in DA II, I believe.

Kinda happened when the Wardens screwed him over between the two games.  I'm sure if that hadn't happened, he wouldn't have been so upset.

Yes, but again, there the game ignores your influence. You have to option to tell Anders that, after all of this, he's free to go. I don't know for certain whether or not this is actually acknowledged in DA II, seeing as I've yet to import that save, however.

EDIT: On a small, related note: I don't think he was a bad character, however.

Modifié par Zeratul20, 28 juin 2011 - 02:35 .

[upsettingshorts]

Siansonea II wrote...

So, easily explained "change" ignites thousands of words of bickering, and OBVIOUS RETCON is relegated to "oh yeah, that sucks too." Priorities!

It's not a retcon.

It's an a*spull.

There is a difference.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 juin 2011 - 02:35 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Yes, but again, there the game ignores your influence. You have to option to tell Anders that, after all of this, he's free to go. I don't know for certain whether or not this is actually acknowledged in DA II, seeing as I've yet to import that save, however.

EDIT: On a small, related note: I don't think he was a bad character, however.

It's nice to see that a protagonist doesn't have influence over everyone's actions.  For example, I thought Kaidan and Ashley's reactions to Shepard on Horizon were completely appropriate.

[KyreneZA]

Roachbugg wrote...

Must I keep saying Kaidan was originally meant to be bi thus it give bioware every right to make the character as the originally envisioned?

No. Please don't. Rather prove that claim.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's not a retcon.

It's an a*spull.

There is a difference.

And people act like Bioware's never pulled an a*spull before, too.

[upsettingshorts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

It's nice to see that a protagonist doesn't have influence over everyone's actions.  For example, I thought Kaidan and Ashley's reactions to Shepard on Horizon were completely appropriate.

No way!  They should apologize for not worshipping the ground a Bioware Protagonist walks on.  The BSN told me.

[Siansonea]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, easily explained "change" ignites thousands of words of bickering, and OBVIOUS RETCON is relegated to "oh yeah, that sucks too." Priorities!

It's not a retcon.

It's an a*spull.

There is a difference.

And yet...*crickets* 

Honestly, I think they could arbitrarily make Kaidan a blonde, blue-eyed woman, and people would comment less than if they DARE to make him play for both teams.

[VegasVance]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Kinda happened when the Wardens screwed him over between the two games.  I'm sure if that hadn't happened, he wouldn't have been so upset.

^Real reason his homosexuality becomes apparent in DA:II He just needed to get screwed over, all makes sense now. 

[Roachbugg]

Kyrene wrote...

Roachbugg wrote...

Must I keep saying Kaidan was originally meant to be bi thus it give bioware every right to make the character as the originally envisioned?

No. Please don't. Rather prove that claim.

its in the game files shepard and kaidan both have Male to male relationship dialog bioware stated after this was unearthed by our snazzy modder people that it was cut do to time constraints. i am sick of these looping arguments!

Modifié par Roachbugg, 28 juin 2011 - 02:39 .