889 réponses à ce sujet

[Berkilak]

ipgd wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

And, unfortunately, it wouldn't be the best romance, either. Much like Anders. Fans demanded it, and what they got was one of the most shallow romances in all of BioWaredom. I don't want to see that happen to Kaidan.

You've never actually played the Anders romance, have you?

Yes, I have. And I was profoundly disappointed. But that could be said for most of DA2, in retrospect.

[Berkilak]

Ryzaki wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The fact Mark Meer recorded dialogue for a M/M romance indicates an intent to make Kaidan bisexual was present at some point in the development process.

Completely unaware of that. If the fact that he was not bisexual in ME1 was a result of time constraints rather than developer intent, I fully support that bisexuality coming out in ME3.

The lines recorded didn't do justice to the characters according to Weekes so the devs decided not to use the lines.(and sounded unusual and they didn't want to do the m/m version of the lovescene since it would've been more than copy and paste. ) 

The time constraints came from someone who *didn't* work on ME1.  

Interesting...

[amcnow]

ipgd wrote...

amcnow wrote...


I agree.  There are other avenues for homosexuality.  There's no need for retcon of this sort on recurring characters.

Oh boy oh boy.

Retcon is a specific word refering to a specific kind of change. To constitute a retcon, a change has to directly contradict a previously established fact of the continuity and retroactively assert its reality over the previous one.

Because Kaidan has never actually fully established his sexuality -- he only confers an opinion on women, and makes no statements or actions whatsoever that would indicate his stance on sexual relations with men, positive or negative or otherwise -- there are no established facts of the continuity to contradict. Through metagame knowledge, we may assume that Kaidan is straight and thus see this as a mechanical change, but it is not a retcon. Retcons refer exclusively to in-world facts explicitly established through text. Your assumptions, inferences and wild mass guesses are not established facts. When a change contradicts your assumptions, it is a change that contradicts your assumptions, but it is not always a retcon.

To be a retcon, Kaidan would have to have explicitly stated or demonstrated at some point, in the game, that he had no interest in men. Furthermore, the change would have to assert that that statement never even happened. If Kaidan were to have stated that he had no interest in men, but in ME3 becomes willing to engage in a relationship with a male Shepard and justified that attraction with an explanation like "YOU ARE SO SPECIAL SHEPARD THAT I'M WILLING TO BANG YOU EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT USUALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN JUST LIKE GARRUS ISN'T INTO HUMANS BUT BANGS FEMALE SHEPARD ANYWAY" or "I was lying because I was insecure/embarrassed/confused" or even "I inhaled a magical space spore and now I want to **** EVERYTHING", it would still not be a retcon because those explanations would explicitly acknowledge and reinforce the existence of previously established facts in the continuity (i.e. that Kaidan had made statements expressing a disinterest in men).

Yet again, retcon does not mean "any change I don't like". A change can be an asspull, a wallbanger, a god-awful franchise destroying jumping of the shark without being a retcon. You can express your disgruntled sentiments without raping a perfectly useful word. Stop using it to mean anything you want it to.

Fair enough.  Retcon was a bit too strong.  With that said, it's still a change (which some people feel is unnecessary) nonetheless.  Not many characters in ME truely establish their sexuality.  This is one thing BioWare should improve.  With that said, sexuality is still implied through the romances themselves.

BTW, you may want to check your tone.  It's just not necessary, and usually leads to these kinds of threads getting locked.

[ipgd]

Berkilak wrote...

Yes, I have. And I was profoundly disappointed. But that could be said for most of DA2, in retrospect.

There are a whole lot of words for Anders, plenty of them justified, but shallow is at the way bottom of the "reactionary parroted word applied to a situation with no consideration for what it actually implies" bin.

[Mr.House]

Sierra Crysis wrote...
Let me start off by saying that, over my course of time posting here that you have been the voice of reason among posters and threads in countless games we've waited for, and I seriously get where you're coming from, infact I'm all for S/S too. As a female and female Shepard player, a S/S with Kaiden doesn't apply to me, but what worries me the most about this is the Anders' effect. I wasn't big on them making Anders bi in DA2, and they did and I shrugged and thought, well, surely they'll do it okay. But what they did to him, whether it was because of the orientation or not was literally suck the charm and fun, and testosterone out of the character completely.

Now, I may be wrong to assume that making him bisexual was the cause of this personality change, given he did bind with Justice and become all weighted down and sad, but to me it just seemed like they changed him to fit the emotional niche in romances and because LIs in general are submissive to the protagonist, much more so to the male protagonist. They did everything but make him limp-wristed. Finally, the lines from gender to gender didn't change, and that just... Yeah it may be meta-gaming, but there's just something that irks me about being cooed to in the exact same fashion that catches awesome-beard guy Hawke.

So yes, Bisexual characters... Bring them on, but I disgress, don't change who they are.. I still want strong headed, sympathetic, cute, and funny Kaiden back.. I don't want him to suddenly be castrated, infact, with his Spectre status he should be even more aggressive, because there's just something about LIs that arn't dominated and instead actively pursue it after being cued. Personally, I don't think that the VS will be the bisexual romance because it is content alot of "New" players won't recieve, and that is something that Bioware bats hard for every new game.

Anders has always been bi since DAA, he ist he only companion who says "love" when his bar is past 90, flirty remarks with some guys, the list goes on.

If you are a female Shepard youy won't even know Kaidan is bi at all, and I highly doubt everytime he see's a man he's going to think of doing naughtythings and tell you about it. They are also not changing. Nione oft he characters, even Jack(many lesbians can counter argument) have been comfirmed straight, people(and oyu) assume they are straight.

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 juin 2011 - 04:01 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The lines recorded didn't do justice to the characters according to Weekes so the devs decided not to use the lines.(and sounded unusual and they didn't want to do the m/m version of the lovescene since it would've been more than copy and paste. ) 

The time constraints came from someone who *didn't* work on ME1.  

Interesting...

I can see you stroking your chin here, but developers CAN change their minds.

[Berkilak]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

If so, great. If not... just be careful what you wish for, if Anders is any indication.

I struggle to think of what is objectively wrong with Anders' romances, either of them, in Dragon Age 2.

it was a complete recharacterization of who the character was in Awakening. Granted, you can explain that away as the whole Justice thing, but then one may ask if the whole Vengeance plotline wasn't simply instated to deflate Anders to the submissive, dim character he ended up becoming so that he might fit into BioWare's pervasively "protagonist-as-aggressor" stance on romances in their games.

[VegasVance]

StarsInMyEyes wrote...
It is a game, the people are not real, and if they were real they have a RIGHT to choose their love interest, instead WE choose it for them.

Yeah it is a game, and as such it is up to the writers to script characters however they deem.  So what is the point they aren't "real" people, if they were I'd feel a bit worse about making swiss cheese out of Wrex, ashing Ashley or piping Tali. 

[Ryzaki]

Berkilak wrote...
Interesting...

 

I thought so too. 

As long as I'm not beaten over the head with it like Tali I really don't care. 

[Siansonea]

Berkilak wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

This fan community, I swear. 

After ME1 came out, every XY person on the boards below a certain age called Kaidan a "wuss" and made all sorts of disparaging remarks about his sexuality, implying that he was gay. Snicker snicker. 

Now that there's a possibility of him being a bisexual character, a lot of the same demographic is running to the ramparts to defend Kaidan's stringent and exclusive heterosexuality.

Personally, there was never enough content in the game, one way or the other, to be able to definitively state "Kaidan HAS to be exclusively heterosexual" OR "Kaidan HAS to be bisexual". BioWare can go either way on this character as far as I'm concerned, and I am just glad that Shepard will finally have an m/m romance option, even if it's a new character. 

But the question remains: Why does anyone care so much that Kaidan remain "straight"? Why is THIS the place they draw the line in the sand regarding characterization? After all, romance storylines, as we all know, are only available to those characters romancing Shepard. If you're not romancing Kaidan, what difference does it make? You won't see any of the "gay" content. Bromance unaffected.

Seriously, if "retconning" and glaring discontinuity is the objection, I can find MUCH more egregious examples of this in the game that plain ol' Bisexual Kaidan. Talk about picking your battles...<_<

I take great offense at your implication that I would ever use a particular sexuality to refer to someone disparagingly. All I'm stating is that Kaidan responds to female Shepard and not male Shepard, and the only difference between the characters was between their legs. Same personality, same actions, same circumstances, same dialogue... different gender. The only reason he acted on one romance and not the other was because of gender.

It's been mentioned that it was intended for him to be bisexual. If so, great. If not... just be careful what you wish for, if Anders is any indication.

So, the only reason Kaidan doesn't respond to MaleShep is his gender? Well, that's true up to a point. Because of MaleShep's gender, Kaidan doesn't automatically assume Shepard is flirting with him, and Shepard never makes a definitive declaration that he's hitting on Kaidan. So yeah, MaleShep's gender IS the fulcrum of this argument, but it may not be due to a singular cause such as Kaidan being exclusively straight. Question a premise, why don't you. You can't make a definitive statement on a basis that is open to interpretation. 

[Berkilak]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can see you stroking your chin here, but developers CAN change their minds.

Very true. And if they do so, they should because they change their own minds, not because the fans want them to change them. Pandering is never a basis for good writing.

Modifié par Berkilak, 27 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[Siansonea]

Berkilak wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

If so, great. If not... just be careful what you wish for, if Anders is any indication.

I struggle to think of what is objectively wrong with Anders' romances, either of them, in Dragon Age 2.

it was a complete recharacterization of who the character was in Awakening. Granted, you can explain that away as the whole Justice thing, but then one may ask if the whole Vengeance plotline wasn't simply instated to deflate Anders to the submissive, dim character he ended up becoming so that he might fit into BioWare's pervasively "protagonist-as-aggressor" stance on romances in their games.

Okay, so other than the whole "I like dudes" thing, what ELSE about Anders did you find to be a discontinuity from Awakenings?

And yeah, that whole Justice thing WAS a big deal, you know. Might lead to some pretty drastic personality changes. Dismissing it as a minor consideration is disingenuous at best.

[ipgd]

Berkilak wrote...

it was a complete recharacterization of who the character was in Awakening. Granted, you can explain that away as the whole Justice thing, but then one may ask if the whole Vengeance plotline wasn't simply instated to deflate Anders to the submissive, dim character he ended up becoming so that he might fit into BioWare's pervasively "protagonist-as-aggressor" stance on romances in their games.

Do I have to repost the Awakening Justice "they planned this from the beginning" banters again? Sigh.

    * Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
    * Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
    * Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
    * Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
    * Anders: But what do they want from mages?
    * Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

    * Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
    * Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
    * Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
    * Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
    * Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
    * Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.

    * Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
    * Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
    * Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
    * Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
    * Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
    * Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

    * Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
    * Justice: I said no such thing.
    * Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
    * Justice: I have no such desires.
    * Anders: You must have some desires...
    * Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

    * Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
    * Justice: I should certainly hope not.
    * Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
    * Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
    * Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
    * Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

    * Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
    * Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
    * Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
    * Justice: Do you think that's possible?
    * Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
    * Justice: I could, if I chose to.
    * Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
    * Justice: I... do not know anymore.

    * Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
    * Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
    * Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
    * Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
    * Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
    * Justice: Your objection is noted.

    * Nathaniel: Will you ever need to switch bodies, Justice?
    * Justice: I did not even wish to possess this one. Why would I switch to another?
    * Nathaniel: You might need to. Unless you wish to look even more obviously like a corpse.
    * Justice: I...would prefer not to think of it.

    * Justice: This... thing you spoke of. Switching bodies.
    * Nathaniel: Not a favorite topic of yours, I take it?
    * Justice: Would such a thing be permitted? Would it not be considered... abominable?
    * Nathaniel: If they're dead, it's not as if they need the body, Justice.
    * Justice: But I can still feel the man who once lived. I know his body, his... It is not just a body.
    * Nathaniel: That's...good, isn't it? I'd rather you felt that way.
    * Justice: Perhaps you are right.

    * Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
    * Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
    * Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
    * Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
    * Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.
    * Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

And then this gem:

"That ballista is conveniently placed, isn’t it? Well, I’m always up for a spot of iconoclasm!"

There are very many complaints to be made about Anders but shallow is not one of them.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 juin 2011 - 04:07 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Berkilak wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

If so, great. If not... just be careful what you wish for, if Anders is any indication.

I struggle to think of what is objectively wrong with Anders' romances, either of them, in Dragon Age 2.

it was a complete recharacterization of who the character was in Awakening. Granted, you can explain that away as the whole Justice thing, but then one may ask if the whole Vengeance plotline wasn't simply instated to deflate Anders to the submissive, dim character he ended up becoming so that he might fit into BioWare's pervasively "protagonist-as-aggressor" stance on romances in their games.

The last thing I'd ever accuse Anders of was being submissive and dim.  In fact, he was one of the few characters who accomplished what he wanted to do, and got things done.  Him also actively flirting with the protagonist is the exact opposite of submissive.

People change, like it or not.  Doesn't mean it's poorly written or anything, it just means you didn't like that change.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 27 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

Berkilak wrote...

it was a complete recharacterization of who the character was in Awakening.

No it wasn't.  Check the DA:A banter again. 

Edit:  Figured ipgd would post it.

Then you know, he merged with a Fade spirit.  

Berkilak wrote...

Granted, you can explain that away as the whole Justice thing, but then one may ask if the whole Vengeance plotline wasn't simply instated to deflate Anders to the submissive, dim character he ended up becoming so that he might fit into BioWare's pervasively "protagonist-as-aggressor" stance on romances in their games.

You honestly believe this?  That his entire arc was for the sole purpose of letting players sex him? Considering what Anders does in the story regardless of whether or not he is romanced at all?

That is some warped logic.  

Why wouldn't it be explained by Justice?  Considering it leads directly to the climax of the game that alters the entire worldstate of the franchise in a dramatic and irreversible way even if Hawke doesn't touch his virtual sex organ.  

I am genuinely having a hard time re-reading this paragraph of yours without imagining you wearing a tinfoil hat.  That's not even considering your idiosyncratic evaluation of Anders' personality. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 juin 2011 - 04:08 .

[jlb524]

Sierra Crysis wrote...
I wasn't big on them making Anders bi in DA2, and they did and I shrugged and thought, well, surely they'll do it okay. But what they did to him, whether it was because of the orientation or not was literally suck the charm and fun, and testosterone out of the character completely.

Testostorone?   I thought he had more 'balls' in DA2.

Sierra Crysis wrote...
Now, I may be wrong to assume that making him bisexual was the cause of this personality change, given he did bind with Justice and become all weighted down and sad,

I'd say you're right there....I doubt Anders' writer (Jennifer Hepler) took his possible romance with a male PC into much consideration when writing his DA2 incarnation....she probably considered the whole 'spirit possessed thing' while writing him instead.

[Siansonea]

Berkilak wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can see you stroking your chin here, but developers CAN change their minds.

Very true. And if they do so, they should because they change their own minds, not because the fans want them to change them. Pandering is never a basis for good writing.

I disagree. I think pandering can be a basis for any type of writing. They pandered to all the "I wanna geth squadmate!" fanboys by creating Legion—and it's an awesome character that gave us a whole new insight into the geth. I find your lack of faith in the writers disturbing.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Siansonea II wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can see you stroking your chin here, but developers CAN change their minds.

Very true. And if they do so, they should because they change their own minds, not because the fans want them to change them. Pandering is never a basis for good writing.

I disagree. I think pandering can be a basis for any type of writing. They pandered to all the "I wanna geth squadmate!" fanboys by creating Legion—and it's an awesome character that gave us a whole new insight into the geth. I find your lack of faith in the writers disturbing.

Exactly.  See: Tali and Garrus.

[jbblue05]

Your personailty is what makes you YOU. Your desires are part of your personailty

Being homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual is part of your personailty.

[Berkilak]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...

[/quote]

Okay, so other than the whole "I like dudes" thing, what ELSE about Anders did you find to be a discontinuity from Awakenings?

And yeah, that whole Justice thing WAS a big deal, you know. Might lead to some pretty drastic personality changes. Dismissing it as a minor consideration is disingenuous at best.[/quote]Never said it wasn't a big deal. If anything, it was too big of a deal. And it changed his personality to be that of a complex sort - very submissive, very angsty in his mundane life, but exceedingly idealistic and radical in decisive times. I found Anders to be most interesting when not in a romance with him. That fiery, idealistic personality should have shown more often, and it just seems that the tacked-on romance resulted in his character being toned down from what it could have been in order to pander to fans.

[Good Chaos7]

Because Sheploo & I demand it.  Sheploo can only go so long without Kaidan..

[Sierra Crysis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


I thought it was obvious that his change in personality had nothing to do with his broad sexual preference and everything to do with the fact his consciousness had merged with a spirit from the Fade,  and it wasn't a spirit of Irreverent Fun. That said, much of that charm, fun, and testosterone if you put it seems, in hindsight - like a front, a coping mechanism for his own bitterness and resentment - things the presence of Justice altered in a very real way into motivation for action.  

That and, you know, they changed VAs for - I believe - zots reasons. 

Perhaps it was a coping mechanism, before, but if it were, would he concievably do it more, or just as badly after joining with Justice..? My point is whether or not they have a reason to change him, that they killed any light by changing him in that manner.. And then they give you all the reason in the world to want to slit his throat. Just as well, the character was dead from the beginning of the game on anyways.

his is a fair point but as you said they tend to do this to a lot of the LIs - if not all of them - because of the nature of how romances must play out in these games so that players do not feel "uncomfortable" or "ninjamanced."  The control must therefore be exclusively in the hands of the player.  I'm not sure precisely how making the Kaidanmance - as it were - accessible to both male and female Shepards would change that model dramatically. 

Yes, noone wants to be ninja-manced, but I don't see how the control still isn't in your favor if you 'choose' to engage it or show that you're open to it and then have them turn it on you. And honestly, I wouldn't be against the DA2 hearts returning and showing up and ME3. It's the only one the game really needs. Jacob jumps at me before I realize it in ME2, and I continue to be dumb to it until Kelly talks about it or refuses to mention the cute couples remarks with other shipmates. Ultimately I think you and I are on the same page here, I just don't want another Anders repeat, or the DA2 LI fiasco in general. Kaiden was the one normal person you could really get into and, if they end up making him someone else because of sexuality or that he's a Spectre now, well... I can't do anything about it, but I'll sigh and shake my head.

I still stand by the fact that it won't be Kaiden or Ash, because of the aforementioned reasons. (It would also be really weird if Ash came onto me because she's more like a sister in my MEverse, lol, and if it popped up some kinda flirty thing from me typically being paragon to friends or she started reading poetry to me, well.. I'd just face-palm.

[Siansonea]

Berkilak wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Okay, so other than the whole "I like dudes" thing, what ELSE about Anders did you find to be a discontinuity from Awakenings?

And yeah, that whole Justice thing WAS a big deal, you know. Might lead to some pretty drastic personality changes. Dismissing it as a minor consideration is disingenuous at best.

Never said it wasn't a big deal. If anything, it was too big of a deal. And it changed his personality to be that of a complex sort - very submissive, very angsty in his mundane life, but exceedingly idealistic and radical in decisive times. I found Anders to be most interesting when not in a romance with him. That fiery, idealistic personality should have shown more often, and it just seems that the tacked-on romance resulted in his character being toned down from what it could have been in order to pander to fans.

That's your perception, and your opinion about writing quality and "pandering". You'll understand if others have differing opinions?

[ipgd]

Berkilak wrote...

That fiery, idealistic personality should have shown more often, and it just seems that the tacked-on romance resulted in his character being toned down from what it could have been in order to pander to fans.

How are you arriving to these conclusions? You make these statements with no evidence or examples to back them up and I have to wonder where on earth you're getting them from other than "I'm repeating things I've heard other people say about it".

His romance dialogue is almost entirely the same as his normal dialogue plus a few special scenes and lines.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[VegasVance]

Good Chaos7 wrote...

Because Sheploo & I demand it.  Sheploo can only go so long without Kaidan..

How long is this?
http://images.wikia....ke_explodes.png