889 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

Berkilak wrote...

Can I borrow those rose-coloured glasses so I can finish my second playthrough of DA2? :innocent:

I'm not particularly sure how it could be seen in any other way. The beginning of the romance recalls and references typical romance tropes aggressively (as the constant comparisons drawn to Twilight on these very forums evidence), and systematically dismantles them as the narrative progresses. That is what a deconstruction is.

Thinking about things before condemning outright them is pretty fun, actually, but I seem to be in the minority in that opinion. Do you have a reason for disagreeing with me or are you hastily reaching for any flimsy justification to disregard my theory because it contradicts your preconceived opinions?

Modifié par ipgd, 27 juin 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ryzaki]

Imperium Alpha wrote...
No thats simply how BioWare work. They record every line imaginable and keep the one they want after for their character. They always did that.

Exactly and they scrapped those lines because they didn't do justice to the characters and didn't sound right. 

[VegasVance]

Good Chaos7 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

VegasVance wrote...

Also as long as they don't do this www.youtube.com/watch.
I'm fine.

MGS2 was a masterpiece and I take great pity upon the filthy plebeians without the mental faculties to comprehend its depth and glory.

High Five!!

& I see absolutely Nothing wrong with the Naked Male Body.. <3

I has a problem with the cartwheels that sh*t is just 

Edit: As for the "male" part Raiden's bits are vestigial at best, you shouldn't be able to hold in one hand. 

Modifié par VegasVance, 27 juin 2011 - 04:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

Berkilak wrote...
Note: Not with you. Only the person who is throwing around terms like "ignorant" and "idiot." You're probably the only proponent who didn't stoop to petty name-calling.

I did say your position sounded as if you were wearing a tinfoil hat.

...and it does. But that's just another way of saying that its a needlessly complicated conspiracy explanation for something with a sounder, more immediately obvious explanation.

[jbblue05]

Ryzaki wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Just drop it,  you're making my original post more complicated than it is

 

You mean your blatant misuse and apparent misunderstanding of a term? Alright. 

You're really dense,  you're assuming you know the purpose of my post, but its obvious you have no clue 

[Sierra Crysis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Not really, considering what Justice does for his psyche in general.  His new way of coping with the injustice he already saw in the world - before the merger - is decisive, proactive action, spurred on by the singular devotion of a Fade spirit who can't comprehend any other approach.  He writes manifestos and goes out of his way to help other mages and blows things up. 

They could have written in what Vengence does to Anders any way they wanted to. Just because what they did to him makes sense in some light given all that we know, does not mean that they couldn't have done it better, or in a way that didn't violate the Alistair-lite that he was.

Sure, but that's got little or nothing to do with Kaidan S/S, or even Anders S/S.  It has a tremendous amount to do with what happens in Dragon Age 2 overall, however, and Thedas in general.  Breaking down the cheerful guy into someone dark and violent is a pretty effective storytelling device, and I think they pulled it off well with Anders.  It shows that even a merger with a "good" Fade spirit can have disastrous, life-altering consequences - something we as an audience had previously only associated with possession by demons of vice.

Looking past his overall character being dark and emotional, does it even really make sense that he's a LI at all? I know we're trying to explain it away here why it's rational that he's BI or not, but is it even rational that he's an LI for LadyHawke either? Again, they could've written it in either way, both Vengence and Awakening-Anders were far better characters to converse with and they could've just as easily gave Anders another guy's name and noone would have even known it was him. They violated the original Anders' fanbase by doing what they did in the same way they will if you find out Ashley or Kaiden will try to shoot you in the back if you try and be paragon and risk the fate of the galaxy for the safety of a planet full of Asari or something. Well actually that would be pretty amazing so I subtract that thought and give another..

They still, in my opinion made a mockery of the character. Shoulda made a new guy for the job.

I'm not sure I can respond to this paragraph as I'm unable to relate to your premise.  Is it your contention that you simply want an LI who can be defined as "normal" and "assertive?"

The normal and assertive guys are on a whole the communities least favorite people. What I want is for them to make keep the remaining normal and assertive guys just that, and not change them to make them more interesting or more liked, or more.... hated.

Isn't that just another way of saying that you don't want it because it violates your head canon?  Which as a subjective position relating to desires - "I want ME3 to be this" - is fine, but it's really not much more than that, ultimately, is it?

No no.. That line there was just wanting to not be ninja-manced by Ashley by being nice to her. It's a really old point ran into the ground, but not ran into the ground enough yet that the Devs get it. (Especially so if it happens.)

Edit: quote-fail

Modifié par Sierra Crysis, 27 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Ryzaki]

jbblue05 wrote...
You're really dense,  you're assuming you know the purpose of my post, but its obvious you have no clue

 

It was some attempt to be cute and witty by saying Anders has PMS like a female except for the fact that 1. Anders doesn't act like he has PMS and 2. He's not feminine in the least 

You'd know that if you actually played the game.

I was just trying to take abit of the "obviously doesn't know what that means." out of your posts.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Berkilak]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Berkilak wrote...
Note: Not with you. Only the person who is throwing around terms like "ignorant" and "idiot." You're probably the only proponent who didn't stoop to petty name-calling.

I did say your position sounded as if you were wearing a tinfoil hat.

...and it does. But that's just another way of saying that its a needlessly complicated conspiracy explanation for something with a sounder, more immediately obvious explanation.

By that point, I was already in full, sleep-deprived defensive mode, given the non sequiters and ad hominem attacks that were being slung. 

[ElitePinecone]

jtav wrote...

The number of players using the ME2 default is non-trivial, so a potential s/s option is dead without their input.

This is a very good point, and possibly why Bioware even went down this path. 

They have detailed telemetrics of decisions and choices. 

50% of players didn't import an ME save, for example, and so Genesis-use aside their mShep characters wouldn't have Kaidan alive. 

I'd wager that a minority of ME mSheps imported into ME2 had Kaidan alive also; given that the choice for players was between Ashley and Kaidan. I'll indulge in rampant speculation and assume that heterosexual teenage males would rather keep Ashley over Kaidan. 

My point: if you're looking for a character who is least likely to be alive in ME3, with the possible exception of Wrex, choose Kaidan. His s/s romance would be non-threatening to so many of the hand-wringing and insecure population because they simply wouldn't have him in their games. 

[Computer_God91]

XX55XX wrote...

The S/S lobby demands it, though.

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

[ipgd]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

They still, in my opinion made a mockery of the character. Shoulda made a new guy for the job.

It would not have been the same. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. You are supposed to see how he was and what he became and be able to immediately see exactly how much better off he was before he merged with Justice; his character in DA2 was not an "improvement" and it was not supposed to be. It is a tragedy.

[VegasVance]

Computer_God91 wrote...

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

So Dr.Hacksaw being romanceable is reasonable, yet S/S romance isn't?

[upsettingshorts]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Just because what they did to him makes sense in some light given all that we know, does not mean that they couldn't have done it better, or in a way that didn't violate the Alistair-lite that he was.

I think it would.  Justice changed him.  Anders changed Justice.  This is, simply put, what ought to have happened once they went through with the merger.  Maintaining Alistair-lite, as you put it, was never on the table.  Nor should it have been, as long as they intended for him to go through with what he goes through.

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Looking past his overall character being dark and emotional, does it even really make sense that he's a LI at all?

Not for me to say really, seems like a question for a different thread. 

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Well actually that would be pretty amazing so I subtract that thought and give another.

Yeah, kind of how I feel about Anders in DA2. 

Sierra Crysis wrote...

They still, in my opinion made a mockery of the character. Shoulda made a new guy for the job.

This would have undermined the narrative.  I literally do not understand this position at all, it's like... you experience fiction in a completely different way than I do to the extent that I cannot even begin to fathom the underlying premise of this thought process.

[Computer_God91]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'd wager that a minority of ME mSheps imported into ME2 had Kaidan alive also; given that the choice for players was between Ashley and Kaidan. I'll indulge in rampant speculation and assume that heterosexual teenage males would rather keep Ashley over Kaidan. 

Nope, I know plenty of heterosexual teenage males who burned Ashley cause they didn't like her.

[Sierra Crysis]

ipgd wrote...
 Think about it for five seconds and even that is the antithesis of shallow.

The entire purpose of the Anders romance is to set up and then systematically deconstruct popular romance tropes. Over the course of the romance, it dissects and highlights the very negative aspects of those tropes (e.g. hasty romanticism and devotion as they beget unhealthy self-destructive obsessions). Rather than glorifying them, as is typical of the romance genre, it shows you how those ostensibly admirable things could go horribly wrong, and how unhealthy it is. It is pretty much a textbook deconstruction in the way it is handled.

Doesn't change the fact that it made for a pretty nasty LI and a bleak outlook for the way future LIs in that manner are handled. The performance may very well be given Academy Awards for it's world-renown spin on love, but it doesn't change the fact that I personally thought it was... well.. not my cup of tea; I'm not the only one.

Modifié par Sierra Crysis, 27 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[Fault Girl]

This is a subject in which no-one is ever going to agree on. Can't it be the case of we agree to disagree, we have no idea what Bioware are going to do with s/s at this time. These thread's end up going round in circles.

Yes discussion is great but head's keep clashing and insults are thrown. I can't see why even if we can't agree we could at least respect someone elses opinion even if we think it is stupid? No-one is going to change their mind.

Well at least will Bioware confirms who is s/s...at least.

[Berkilak]

ipgd wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

Can I borrow those rose-coloured glasses so I can finish my second playthrough of DA2? :innocent:

I'm not particularly sure how it could be seen in any other way. The beginning of the romance recalls and references typical romance tropes aggressively (as the constant comparisons drawn to Twilight on these very forums evidence), and systematically dismantles them as the narrative progresses. That is what a deconstruction is.

Thinking about things before condemning outright them is pretty fun, actually, but I seem to be in the minority in that opinion. Do you have a reason for disagreeing with me or are you hastily reaching for any flimsy justification to disregard my theory because it contradicts your preconceived opinions?

Note the post you rebutted. Both of your opinions are justified. I just think yours is very overly-analytical and injected the relationship with a lot of complexity that simply wasn't there in the game files. You inferred what was going on behind-the-scenes, but the actual relationship was no where as complex as you propose, as great as it would have been if it were.

[jbblue05]

Ryzaki wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
You're really dense,  you're assuming you know the purpose of my post, but its obvious you have no clue

 

It was some attempt to be cute and witty by saying Anders has PMS like a female except for the fact that 1. Anders doesn't act like he has PMS and 2. He's not feminine in the least 

You'd know that if you actually played the game.

I was just trying to take abit of the "obviously doesn't know what that means." out of your posts.  

Now you get it took you long enough

I did play DA2 I beat it 3 times.

Anders is whiny, demanding, a drama queen, he sounds feminime to me also. so he fits my definition of feminime, if he doesn't fit it for you than that's just your opinion.

So why didn't you just argue against my witty comment.
I didn't used the term PMS to be literal

[upsettingshorts]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

not my cup of tea; I'm not the only one.

Should every romance always be everyone's cup of tea? 

That said, I'm not sure Anders set any kind of precedent other than the fact BioWare isn't going to shy away from making them occasionally wildly controversial - in both the game world and in a meta sense.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 juin 2011 - 04:55 .

[ElitePinecone]

Computer_God91 wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

The S/S lobby demands it, though.

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

You have no idea what you're talking about, with respect. 

Imagining that Bioware is captive to a secret cabal of forum posters with sinister designs to turn the entire cast of every future video game into a free-wheeling menagerie of sexual stereotypes is paranoid to the extreme.

Bioware do what they do because they have the motivation and resources to do it. Do they listen to fan feedback? Probably. Are they guided by it? No. 

It took a 6-month delay in the launch date to even get this far. In all likelihood Bioware are only implementing this content because they have more time and resources to do it with. Not because they feel obligated to and certainly not because a few hundred forum posters asked them nicely to do it. 

[Ryzaki]

jbblue05 wrote...
Now you get it took you long enough

I did play DA2 I beat it 3 times.

Anders is whiny, demanding, a drama queen, he sounds feminime to me also. so he fits my definition of feminime, if he doesn't fit it for you than that's just your opinion.

So why didn't you just argue against my witty comment.
I didn't used the term PMS to be literal

 

So a whiny demanding drama queen = female to you?

I guess Merrill and Isabella were plain masculine then huh? 

The comment wasn't "witty" it was dumb. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[ipgd]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that it made for a pretty nasty LI and a bleak outlook for the way future LIs in that manner are handled. The performance may very well be given Academy Awards for it's world-renown spin on love, but it doesn't change the fact that I personally thought it was... well.. not my cup of tea; I'm not the only one.

That Anders was unhealthy and self-destructive was kinda the point of the romance. You don't have to like it, but for what it was, it was done very well. I resent statements that somehow conflate "I didn't personally like it" or "it wasn't typical" and "it was poorly done".

Berkilak wrote...

Note the post you rebutted. Both of your opinions are justified. I just think yours is very overly-analytical and injected the relationship with a lot of complexity that simply wasn't there in the game files. You inferred what was going on behind-the-scenes, but the actual relationship was no where as complex as you propose, as great as it would have been if it were.

I have a lot of stances I'd acquiesce to being called "overanalytical" but Anders's romance as a deconstruction really isn't one of them. It's not even particularly subtle, at that. If you look at it with any knowledge of romance tropes it is practically screaming in your face.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 juin 2011 - 04:58 .

[VegasVance]

Ryzaki wrote...
So a whiny demanding drama queen = female to you?
I guess Merrill and Isabella were plain masculine then huh? 

Yup, Isabella at least has a big boat, I've seen it. Plus Isabella can't get prego.  Only sensible option.  

[Computer_God91]

VegasVance wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

So Dr.Hacksaw being romanceable is reasonable, yet S/S romance isn't?

Why not? I think if things were flipped and there were a legion of Chakwas romance supporters and almost zip s/s supporters then there would be a Chakwas romance and no S/S romances. My point is Bioware is only doing what a vast majority of the fanbase tells them to do, where I think they should really make the damn game their way and take suggestions not orders.

Here's something to think about, people want a Samara romance. What makes this request any less reasonable? If it's about age then thats clearly not a factor.

[Ryzaki]

VegasVance wrote...

Yup, Isabella at least has a big boat, I've seen it. Plus Isabella can't get prego.  Only sensible option.  

 

So Izzy's a trap?  I knew it!