889 réponses à ce sujet

[Sierra Crysis]

ipgd wrote...

It would not have been the same. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. You are supposed to see how he was and what he became and be able to immediately see exactly how much better off he was before he merged with Justice; his character in DA2 was not an "improvement" and it was not supposed to be. It is a tragedy.

It's a tragedy alright. Lets just say that I agree with you for a second that it was better that it was Anders and not Steve (to pick a random name), it still doesn't change that the LI was overly forward and crushing in his love-saturated lines. He's the person that just loves you too much, and maybe that's your thing. Maybe it makes sense that it's his thing because he uses it in Awakening a little.. But let me tell you, it was the furthest thing from my mind when I thought about the Anders' LI and I was completely underwhelmed with the overall arc. And even after all the coarsing I love yous and I'll hurt yous, it changed nothing at the end. He still does what it does, he still expects you not to understand. There's no saving him or changing his mind, he was/is doomed and though I know it's supposed to be climatic... But it just comes off as rubbish in my opinion.

[HopHazzard]

Computer_God91 wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

The S/S lobby demands it, though.

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

That's how it works though. In any situation, the people who shout the loudest get the most attention paid to them. That's really the whole point of shouting.

[Computer_God91]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sierra Crysis wrote...

not my cup of tea; I'm not the only one.

Should every romance always be everyone's cup of tea? 

Hell no.

That said I hate your avatar picture, lol. I can't stand when people chew like that!!!

[lv12medic]

Berkilak wrote...

Note the post you rebutted. Both of your opinions are justified. I just think yours is very overly-analytical and injected the relationship with a lot of complexity that simply wasn't there in the game files. You inferred what was going on behind-the-scenes, but the actual relationship was no where as complex as you propose, as great as it would have been if it were.

Which right there shows the underlying flaw of all romance subplots in every video game (Bioware just tends to have a lot of them).  It's either programmed in or it is not programmed in.  Bioware makes believable characters but their entire character is essentially bottled up into a couple hundred little chunks of Voice Over files, an animated pixel model, and some codex entries.  But I think the point of the characters isn't to see just what is there but to see beyond there.

I suppose it would be like how the brain translates rapidly changing still images into fluid motion.  Or something.

[Eurhetemec]

Berkilak wrote...

 Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against homosexuality, but he's shown no signs of "batting for the other team," so to speak, so far. And it would be quite odd to have him changing teams all of a sudden. Remember how weird it was when Anders came onto you out of the blue?

It would just feel incredibily forced if he were to "come out" at this point.

The reason people are gunning for it, is that you're quite wrong, and because he uses much of the same dialogue for MShep and FShep, he actually has a pretty strong romantic "vibe" going on with MSHep. This is, of course, because he was originally planned as romanceable by MShep, and they didn't really alter that except to automatically bump MShep onto the non-romantic path when they took it out.

Anyone who was surprised by Anders has no gaydar whatsoever, frankly.

[xassantex]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

But I digress - a bisexual Kaidan is a shallow copout as opposed to a character written to be bisexual or gay (preferably gay).

In a perfect world, sure.

But there are zots to consider.  I personally have zero interest whatsoever in S/S romances in ME3 or any other BioWare game, but in recognizing that others do, I wholeheartedly endorse giving them access to it in a manner which requires the least amount of zots.  Which is, quite simply, to make love interests bisexual (or ProtagonistSexual).  It's not "shallow,"  it makes efficient use of limited resources to appeal to the broadest possible customer base.

It doesn't harm me in the least, and it lets people who prefer S/S romances enjoy the love-interest content just as I do.  Those who do claim it harms them need - and often, immediately have - their motivations scrutinized.

Personally, I find many of the arguments against S/S inclusion in BioWare games as inherently selfish, considering that those in favor of them simply ask to be able to experience romance storylines with the same relatability and sexual preference that others in the majority take for granted.

Keep in mind that when you argue for a new gay (or even a new bisexual) character to be written to "appeal to the S/S crowd" you are endorsing directing zots away from existing characters to new ones for the express purpose of giving "those people" someone to sleep with.  I maintain it is in the interests of players who have little to no interest in S/S romances to support ProtagonistSexual or bisexual love interests because it costs few zots to accomplish an inclusive goal.

*bows* thank you . 

[Computer_God91]

HopHazzard wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

The S/S lobby demands it, though.

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

That's how it works though. In any situation, the people who shout the loudest get the most attention paid to them. That's really the whole point of shouting.

Apparently.

So then the S/S crowd is the equivalent to a screaming mob or a band of cry baby children? 

[upsettingshorts]

Computer_God91 wrote...

That said I hate your avatar picture, lol. I can't stand when people chew like that!!!

OT:  Fat Apollo doesn't care what you think, he's grown complacent and soft about everything from military tactics to chewing etiquette to the fate of the human race.

That said, I do believe it is Ron Swanson time.

[jbblue05]

Ryzaki wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Now you get it took you long enough

I did play DA2 I beat it 3 times.

Anders is whiny, demanding, a drama queen, he sounds feminime to me also. so he fits my definition of feminime, if he doesn't fit it for you than that's just your opinion.

So why didn't you just argue against my witty comment.
I didn't used the term PMS to be literal

 

So a whiny demanding drama queen = female to you?

I guess Merrill and Isabella were plain masculine then huh? 

Their are other qualities I find feminime,  Anders represnts the qualities I dislike the most in females

Isabela is a man in a woman's body, she doesn't broadcast her emotions for everybody to see

Merrill doesn't broadcast her emotions openly either

[VegasVance]

Computer_God91 wrote...

VegasVance wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

So Dr.Hacksaw being romanceable is reasonable, yet S/S romance isn't?

Why not? I think if things were flipped and there were a legion of Chakwas romance supporters and almost zip s/s supporters then there would be a Chakwas romance and no S/S romances. My point is Bioware is only doing what a vast majority of the fanbase tells them to do, where I think they should really make the damn game their way and take suggestions not orders.

Here's something to think about, people want a Samara romance. What makes this request any less reasonable? If it's about age then thats clearly not a factor.

You are missing the point, I asked why Chakwas romance is considered by you to be reasonable, yet same sex isn't? 

[Ryzaki]

jbblue05 wrote...
Their are other qualities I find feminime,  Anders represnts the qualities I dislike the most in females

Isabela is a man in a woman's body, she doesn't broadcast her emotions for everybody to see

Merrill doesn't broadcast her emotions openly either

 

Alright then.  I know a lost cause when I see one. 

[VegasVance]

Also if Isabela is actually a man, I'm gay. I'd like another Isabela in my Mass Effect then please. Carefree, fun-loving pirate, what more could I ask for?

[mesmerizedish]

I support Dr. Chakwas for f/f romance. Who doesn't sometimes fantasize about the older, wiser woman, teaching us the ways of the flesh?

[Computer_God91]

VegasVance wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

VegasVance wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

So Dr.Hacksaw being romanceable is reasonable, yet S/S romance isn't?

Why not? I think if things were flipped and there were a legion of Chakwas romance supporters and almost zip s/s supporters then there would be a Chakwas romance and no S/S romances. My point is Bioware is only doing what a vast majority of the fanbase tells them to do, where I think they should really make the damn game their way and take suggestions not orders.

Here's something to think about, people want a Samara romance. What makes this request any less reasonable? If it's about age then thats clearly not a factor.

You are missing the point, I asked why Chakwas romance is considered by you to be reasonable, yet same sex isn't? 

I never said I thought a chakwas romance was reasonable or unreasonable. Honestly I don't care if its either one. A reasonable request to me would be a gameplay suggestion that is over looked because there are 50,000 people screaming their faces off in a different thread to get what they want.

Also I don't even think a chakwas romance is possible anyhow, I'm mostly screwing around. However, I thought S/S in ME wasn't possible so I could be wrong.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 27 juin 2011 - 05:10 .

[jbblue05]

Ryzaki wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Their are other qualities I find feminime,  Anders represnts the qualities I dislike the most in females

Isabela is a man in a woman's body, she doesn't broadcast her emotions for everybody to see

Merrill doesn't broadcast her emotions openly either

 

Alright then.  I know a lost cause when I see one. 

I know right

[Lenimph]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I support Dr. Chakwas for f/f romance. Who doesn't sometimes fantasize about the older, wiser woman, teaching us the ways of the flesh?

  I do that all the time

[ipgd]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

It's a tragedy alright. Lets just say that I agree with you for a second that it was better that it was Anders and not Steve (to pick a random name), it still doesn't change that the LI was overly forward and crushing in his love-saturated lines. He's the person that just loves you too much, and maybe that's your thing.

Not my thing at all. I hate that entire character archetype. I like it because it deliberately subverts that archetype in a way that is intellectually appealing to me. I'd certainly hope people would hate it if it really were a face-value straight played buffet of romance tropes, but under approximately five seconds of scrutiny it becomes pretty obvious that it is not.

Maybe it makes sense that it's his thing because he uses it in Awakening a little.. But let me tell you, it was the furthest thing from my mind when I thought about the Anders' LI and I was completely underwhelmed with the overall arc. And even after all the coarsing I love yous and I'll hurt yous, it changed nothing at the end. He still does what it does, he still expects you not to understand. There's no saving him or changing his mind, he was/is doomed and though I know it's supposed to be climatic... But it just comes off as rubbish in my opinion.

I'm not sure how being able to change Anders's mind would have done anything but sabotage his character arc. He's a freight train barreling off the edge of a cliff, and throwing your squishy body in front of it is not going to counteract its momentum. You don't have to like that sort of thing, but for what it was, it was done well.

Helplessness and powerlessness was a theme that underpinned the entire narrative of DA2. It fit in seamlessly.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[Blacklash93]

Computer_God91 wrote...
So then the S/S crowd is the equivalent to a screaming mob or a band of cry baby children? 

Not at all. Being vocal does not equal being demanding or arrogant.

Anyone who says the s/s crowd has been demanding, arrogant, or over-entitled toward Bioware either doesn't know what they're talking about or had a very bad example to go off of.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 27 juin 2011 - 05:18 .

[ElitePinecone]

Imperium Alpha wrote...


Okay let's say i'm insecure and I take now Kaidan to survive because of the Ashley ME3 outfit disgrace they showed ? 

Firstly, they've announced more armour options for Ashley. 

Secondly, these forums represent a few thousand people out of a fanbase of several million. The telemetrics don't lie - 50% of players didn't import into ME2 (so Kaidan was dead in mShep games) and of the 50% that did import, I'd argue it's more likely that young, male, heterosexual players would leave Kaidan to die rathe than Ashley, if they were playing an mShep game.

Point is: he's dead in what I would argue are the majority of ME2 games. 

Bioware won't be alienating a majority of people with a bisexual Kaidan - even if they took offense at something so trivial - when he's dead in the majority of imported Shepards.

New players won't know who the heck Kaidan is anyway.  

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 27 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[upsettingshorts]

ElitePinecone wrote...

New players won't know who the heck Kaidan is anyway. 

Sure they would!

He's that "good kid" from the comic!

[HopHazzard]

Computer_God91 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

The S/S lobby demands it, though.

This little sentence pisses me off more then anything. I like how the S/S people are making demands of Bioware and like the little whipped animal the follow. Yet when people make reasonable requests nobody should listen to them.

That's how it works though. In any situation, the people who shout the loudest get the most attention paid to them. That's really the whole point of shouting.

Apparently.

So then the S/S crowd is the equivalent to a screaming mob or a band of cry baby children? 

Screaming mob. And personally, I don't have a problem with the behavior. It worked for the people who wanted to romance Tali and Garrus. Why shouldn't other groups with special interests employ the same tactic?

[ElitePinecone]

Just so we're all on the same page here:



It's already been confirmed. It was confirmed by Bioware.

It was a total surprise to people who were arguing for S/S.

We'd given up. We expected that it wouldn't be in the game.

[Sierra Crysis]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think it would.  Justice changed him.  Anders changed Justice.  This is, simply put, what ought to have happened once they went through with the merger.  Maintaining Alistair-lite, as you put it, was never on the table.  Nor should it have been, as long as they intended for him to go through with what he goes through.

I think they could've handled it in a very different light, one that would've been much better and made for a far more promising LI. If they intended him to be that way, then yeah I concede that. Bioware's vision for games is greater than what I or the community feels is right, but as a fan I should beable to critisize that vision after the fact and supplement it with the appropriate what-ifs and so on. I'm not saying that you or anyone is inhibiting that. I do think that you're a little bias that it could happen in any other shape or light then it did, and more importantly, I think that it makes all the sense in the world that whether or not Anders was a LI at all is appropriate for this thread.

Throwing an LI in there, heterosexual or not for the sake of having it isn't something I want to see in Bioware games, and we all know that they're prone to do it. It applies to this thread because you can turn around and say the same thing about bisexuality, and it's times like this that I reminisce about the single LIs per gender that happened in previous Bioware titles; where the romances were very sculpted for the gender.  
 

This would have undermined the narrative.  I literally do not understand this position at all, it's like... you experience fiction in a completely different way than I do to the extent that I cannot even begin to fathom the underlying premise of this thought process.

Haha, I don't think it undermines it at all, because... Many-many-many-many people that have played DA2 have -never- played Awakening. They could've easily made a new character for the role and kept the exact same story arc. Throwing Anders into DA2 in general was questionable because he was supposed to be like in Ameranthine for awhile as per the endings of that game, and surely it takes some time to travel there from the Free Marches, much less to deal with all the changes that taking Justice on, act normal after cannibalizing people, and then act like he's been coping with Vengence for years. It's a big slap in the face proverbial face, if you were one to be offended by such things.

[upsettingshorts]

HopHazzard wrote...

Screaming mob. And personally, I don't have a problem with the behavior. It worked for the people who wanted to romance Tali and Garrus. Why shouldn't other groups with special interests employ the same tactic?

Indeed.

If you hate interest groups, you hate democracy. 

...it just so happens I hate democracy, but that's neither here nor there.