1269 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
It's not that the writing's bad per se... it's rather that they're a constraint on the imagination. Something like the Witcher is a deconstruction and GRRM had LoTR as an inspiration... but fantasy is such a potentially rich genre it's horrible to see everything constantly falling back to LoTR.

There's nothing about Tolkien's works that constrain the imagination- the opposite is true.  If writers are constrained, it's their own fault and hence bad writing.  I don't think audiences are constrained.  If it's good, people will read it.  And "originality" is not necessarily good.  Medieval audiences would listen to the same stories told and re-told, for instance.  They liked familiar stories.  A bard could distinguish himself by telling it well and by adding his own unique style.  There is nothing new under the sun, so as long as a story is told well, I don't care if it's inspired by something else or draws from something else.

And again- Tolkien himself was using source material.  We've inherited the Anglo-Celtic mythology trove.  Why I should be concerned that that's still being used, I don't know.  The Greco-Roman tradition gets endlessly recycled, why not elves and the Ragnarok?

[Alpha-Centuri]

Just finished it. Was better than AFFC for me. Page 913(Hardback American edition). Wow. I can't say that I didn't see it coming... Kinda shocked, but not surprised. I sat the book aside for about 5 minutes, but kept reading after until the end. I have plenty to say, but I'm going to get my wits about me first, as I feel like I've gone on a roller-coaster ride.

[WeRtheBrox]

I'm only about 150 pages in, but I've got to say -- every time Tyrion says "Where do ****s go?" I kinda cringe; I'm afraid of where that obsession is going to lead....

[Tasmen]

Addai67 wrote...

Tyrion will tell her the straight dope, if he can ever get to her. So close and yet so far away.

I really do want Dany to get together with Tyrion to have a chat.  That would be such a great conversation.

[Eski.Moe]

I really was expecting for them to meet in this book. I suppose it was more vital for her to moon about Daario for a bit. :|
Seriously though, there's gonna be a bit to get through next book. She has to deal with the new Khalasaar, meet Tyrion, maybe meet Victarion and get Meeren resolved unless we start off with her and all those guys on a boat heading to Westeros and commenting on what a difficult time they had uniting Meeren, haha.

[Addai]

Eski.Moe wrote...

I really was expecting for them to meet in this book. I suppose it was more vital for her to moon about Daario for a bit. :|
Seriously though, there's gonna be a bit to get through next book. She has to deal with the new Khalasaar, meet Tyrion, maybe meet Victarion and get Meeren resolved unless we start off with her and all those guys on a boat heading to Westeros and commenting on what a difficult time they had uniting Meeren, haha.

I like Dany, but every time she thought ohhh Daario, I wanted to kick her.  I think we're meant to have that reaction.  I kept thinking Fabio every time I saw his name.  lol

There's a fun thread on westeros.org talking about easter eggs and the like.  Someone speculated that Tyrion's final chapter was a self-insert, where he's having to sign the books and he says he's dancing as fast as he can. 

[Seagloom]

New drinking game! Take a shot every time Dany swoons over Daario!

[Maria13]

Dario is, in short, a cad but hey, seems he's good in bed so...

[Addai]

It made me think of poor Jorah- she told him he was unworthy of her and now she's taken up with a sellsword captain. 

[Seagloom]

That was code for "I'm just not that into you." >.< After having read Jorah's physical description, I can understand why too.

[AntiChri5]

Seagloom wrote...

New drinking game! Take a shot every time Dany swoons over Daario!

Are you trying to give me alcohol poisoning? 

[Seagloom]

Nope! I want everyone to get so drunk they forget how silly Dany is acting throughout the book. Poisoning is a bonus.

[Maria13]

But the Jorah of the series was right hot... When he said 'Kahleesi...' Uf!!!

Anyways I don't need excuses to drink.

[Seagloom]

The series, yes. His book counterpart? Ehh... no thanks. :[ A looker he isn't.

Come on Maria, be adventurous!

[Addai]

Seagloom wrote...

That was code for "I'm just not that into you." >.< After having read Jorah's physical description, I can understand why too.

That shouldn't matter, unless you're a shallow teenager- which Dany is, obviously.  Of course it would have made the revelation about Jorah all the worse if she had returned his feelings.

Unfortunately it does echo a little of Rhaegar falling for Lyanna when his plain, sickly wife was not enough to hold his attention.  I'm still a Rhaegar fan and I think ADWD all but makes R+L=J certain, but even the good Targs have their shortcomings too.  A sense of entitlement and bit of dreamy headedness among them.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 juillet 2011 - 08:00 .

[Seagloom]

Addai67 wrote...

That shouldn't matter, unless you're a shallow teenager- which Dany is, obviously.

Yep, that is what I was getting at. Conquering ruler or not, she is still a kid. GRRM has done a good job of showing how the youthful characters in this series, however much their circumstances force them to grow up, still cling to some sliver of immaturity.

[Brockololly]

Seagloom wrote...

New drinking game! Take a shot every time Dany swoons over Daario!

Or every time the phrase "Words are wind" is uttered!

[Eski.Moe]

Or 'nuncle'! :|

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
There's nothing about Tolkien's works that constrain the imagination- the opposite is true.

The works themselves are a cultural icon. The imagery, the metaphysics, the lore... all of this is part and parcell of our fantasy pop-culture. 

Why does fantasy (for example) need elves or dwarves at all, other than convention? The most interesting thing DA as a setting did is create the darkspawn and qunari. It would have been a better setting if it removed elves and dwarves entirely.

If writers are constrained, it's their own fault and hence bad writing.  I don't think audiences are constrained.  If it's good, people will read it.  And "originality" is not necessarily good.  

But a re-hash of the same story, over and over again, is boring. It's nothing more than what gaming companies are doing today by hashing out Modern Shooter 1133. 

Medieval audiences would listen to the same stories told and re-told, for instance.  They liked familiar stories.  A bard could distinguish himself by telling it well and by adding his own unique style.  There is nothing new under the sun, so as long as a story is told well, I don't care if it's inspired by something else or draws from something else.

There is a difference between finding an old gem, beyond the scope of popular culture... and writing a super hero movie called "General United States," about a 5'4 soldier who takes part in a super soldier program to become the champion for the Allies against ''The Green Spine''. 

And again- Tolkien himself was using source material.  We've inherited the Anglo-Celtic mythology trove.  Why I should be concerned that that's still being used, I don't know.  The Greco-Roman tradition gets endlessly recycled, why not elves and the Ragnarok?

Why is it a good thing that greco-roman tradition is re-hashed? Neither should be, if you ask me. 

[twincast]

I find nuncle (and naunt) kinda cute.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
Why does fantasy (for example) need elves or dwarves at all, other than convention? The most interesting thing DA as a setting did is create the darkspawn and qunari. It would have been a better setting if it removed elves and dwarves entirely.

Because they're part of a tradition.  People like that tradition.  You don't, or at least you're tired of it, but that's just your opinion.

Why is it a good thing that greco-roman tradition is re-hashed? Neither should be, if you ask me. 

See above.  There is nothing new under the sun.  All this postmodern storytelling, it's complete rot.  Stick to the old stories.  Even with something new added to them or with new twists, they work, and they'll always work.

[Brockololly]

I FINALLY finished ADwD today!

I liked it but god dammit- I am so sick of Dany. Seriously, beyond the world building stuff in her chapters, as a character she developed a major case of The Stupid and its painful (and painfully boring) to see her character development get stuck in a loop. Its like Dany was somehow hanging out with pre-Littlefinger Sansa or something- yes, you want to have hot sex with Golden Tooth Manly Man Dude and run around in your Plot Armor, we get it. So while everyone else in Westeros and Essos is dying, being maimed and barely scraping by, Dany is off in La La Land disconnected from reality. Ugh.

Fantastic book and I'll write more on it later but Dany's shtick is so boring and tiresome to me at this point. I just think she only developed a little as a character since Drogo died but most of that development was undone in ADwD.

Alpha-Centuri wrote...
Just finished it. Was better than  AFFC for me. Page 913(Hardback American edition). Wow. I can't say that I didn't see it coming... Kinda shocked, but not surprised. I sat the  book aside for about 5 minutes, but kept reading after until the end. I  have plenty to say, but I'm going to get my wits about me first, as I  feel like I've gone on a roller-coaster ride.

I punched my hardcover. How dare GRRM try and kill off Wun Wun!?

But one thing I don't like is how GRRM seems to be leaning more on the end of chapter/end of character POV death cliffhangers- with Brienne and now Jon. Those work ok within a book, but lose steam when it takes years to come up with a sequel. Whether Jon is alive or dead, it won't have the same impact of something like the Red Wedding or Ned's death.

And while I'm thinking of it- I loved Melisandre's chapter. Shows how she really is clueless on her visions. I'm wondering if she isn't going to end up screwing everyone over maybe inadvertantly through her visions and unintentionally leading everyone astray and right into the Other's hands?

Or if maybe, like how she used a glamor/charm on Mance, if she isn't hiding her real identity/appearance with her big huge ruby on her neck?

The stuff in the North in general was fantastic- from Bran's great chapters (not enough!) to Davos (off to Cannibal Island!) and Manderley ( The North Remembers!) to Reek/Theon's sort of redemption to Napoleon marching into Russia...I mean, Stannis marching on Winterfell to Val being a badass and of course the absolutely awesome Spearwives commando escape from Winterfell. 

And Tormund Giantsbane is totally Brian Blessed in my head. Har!

Modifié par Brockololly, 02 août 2011 - 06:26 .

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

I FINALLY finished ADwD today!

I liked it but god dammit- I am so sick of Dany. Seriously, beyond the world building stuff in her chapters, as a character she developed a major case of The Stupid and its painful (and painfully boring) to see her character development get stuck in a loop. Its like Dany was somehow hanging out with pre-Littlefinger Sansa or something- yes, you want to have hot sex with Golden Tooth Manly Man Dude and run around in your Plot Armor, we get it. So while everyone else in Westeros and Essos is dying, being maimed and barely scraping by, Dany is off in La La Land disconnected from reality. Ugh.

Fantastic book and I'll write more on it later but Dany's shtick is so boring and tiresome to me at this point. I just think she only developed a little as a character since Drogo died but most of that development was undone in ADwD.

A lot of people are upset with the "devolution" of both Dany and Jon.  I did say that I was struggling with Dany's chapters, but I don't see it as dimly as all that.  I think he's showing that despite their hereditary leg up and plot armor, you have to learn to lead people the old-fashioned way- by trial and error and suffering.  Marrying Hizdahr was a bold move, something she did to make peace in Meereen which could sacrifice her long-term ambitions.  She wasn't ready to go to Westeros, and recognized that.  I see growing pains, not character devolution.  Also, Drogon in the arena erased almost all my frustrations both with her and with the character arc.  That chapter was awesome!!!

How dare GRRM try and kill off Wun Wun!?

LOL  Have you heard the story that GRRM lost a bet and had to include a Ser Patrek as homage to the Dallas Cowboys or something?  Then he makes him Wun Wun's bludgeoning toy.  Hilarious.

And while I'm thinking of it- I loved Melisandre's chapter. Shows how she really is clueless on her visions.

"I keep asking to see Azor Ahai, and all I see is Jon Snow."  DUH  Wake up and smell the brimstone, Mel!

Or if maybe, like how she used a glamor/charm on Mance, if she isn't hiding her real identity/appearance with her big huge ruby on her neck?

She has flashbacks of being Melony from Lot Number Seven, so I don't think her identity is way off.  She could be an old hag or something, though.  Wouldn't Stannis be surprised. 

The stuff in the North in general was fantastic- from Bran's great chapters (not enough!) to Davos (off to Cannibal Island!) and Manderley ( The North Remembers!) to Reek/Theon's sort of redemption to Napoleon marching into Russia...I mean, Stannis marching on Winterfell to Val being a badass and of course the absolutely awesome Spearwives commando escape from Winterfell. 

And Tormund Giantsbane is totally Brian Blessed in my head. Har!

The North definitely made the book.  OMG, Manderly and his Frey pies... that just....  I love that guy.  And I was totally cheering once I figured out who the "camp followers" were.  It took me a long time to cotton on, until they started talking about "kneelers."  I was so psyched when we learned that Mance hadn't really been burned.  That was just no way for such an awesome character to go out.  I'm worried about him, now, but I can't imagine the Boltons will be the end of him.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 août 2011 - 03:14 .

[Maria13]

So with you on Mance.

Some of the spearwives may have been captured by the flayers but hopefully not Mance. Let's not forget he's very familiar with the layout of Winterfell apart from anything else because this is not the first time he's infiltrated it.

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
A lot of people are upset with the "devolution" of both Dany and Jon.  I did say that I was struggling with Dany's chapters, but I don't see it as dimly as all that.  I think he's showing that despite their hereditary leg up and plot armor, you have to learn to lead people the old-fashioned way- by trial and error and suffering.  Marrying Hizdahr was a bold move, something she did to make peace in Meereen which could sacrifice her long-term ambitions.  She wasn't ready to go to Westeros, and recognized that.  I see growing pains, not character devolution.  Also, Drogon in the arena erased almost all my frustrations both with her and with the character arc.  That chapter was awesome!!!

Jon didn't bother me quite as much since in the end he kind of gets harsh consequences for his actions in the form of maybe, you know, dying.

Meanwhile, what happens to Dany for being a naive, arrogant teen? She gets diarrhea and her period? 

Dany probably is my least favorite character but I don't hate her- I just want her to do something. Part of why I was bored with Mereen is how its basically putting everything on hold. It would be like if Sam and Frodo just decided to hang out in Rivendell for an indeterminant amount of time and maybe when they felt like it, they'd do the whole ring thing.

Its not that I want her to make a mad dash to Westeros either, but how she has her whole Holier Than Thou attitude in trying to change Mereen and yet she has the equivalent of unleashed giant flying mad dogs  that breath fire going about killing kids...ugh. I know Dany is a kid basically so her attitude makes sense, but she seems to me about the only character that is completely untouchable and never has to face the harsh consequences everyone else in the books does when they screw up. She can't be burned, she seems immune to disease, she has massive dragons, the masses love her despite the fact she is horrible queen...


I guess maybe my complaint is more with GRRM in having so much of the Mereen and Tyrion's later stuff so boring. I loved Tyrion's little river boat ride with Griff and Company but after that it got a bit boring. And while its world building, it ends up dragging, especially compared to everything in the North or even Arya/Jaime/Cersei's stuff. Essos is interesting, but I'd rather the characters be moving through it back to Westeros (go through Valyria!) or going all the way around through Asshai or something instead of digging in and setting up camp with not much going on over there to care about.

Addai67 wrote...
She has flashbacks of being Melony from Lot Number Seven, so I don't think her identity is way off.  She could be an old hag or something, though.  Wouldn't Stannis be surprised.

Yeah, thats more what I was thinking- maybe even like in The Witcher where the sorceresses use magic to make themselves look better. Especially with how the books deal so much with identity and people having multiple faces/personas.

Addai67 wrote...
The North definitely made the book.  OMG, Manderly and his Frey pies... that just....  I love that guy.  And I was totally cheering once I figured out who the "camp followers" were.  It took me a long time to cotton on, until they started talking about "kneelers."  I was so psyched when we learned that Mance hadn't really been burned.  That was just no way for such an awesome character to go out.  I'm worried about him, now, but I can't imagine the Boltons will be the end of him.

Haha- It took me so long to figure out who Abel and the washerwomen actually were. It wasn't until one of them mentioned raiding south of the Wall that it dawned on me.

I really hope all the spearwives weren't killed and flayed and made into a cloak for Mance. Or that Stannis was wiped out off screen.

I don't think GRRM would do that necessarily- if he kills off characters he usually leaves no doubt they're dead. While cliffhanger deaths like Davos at Blackwater in ACoK or Brienne at the end of AFfC or Theon in ACoK or Davos again mentioned dead in AFfC or even how Theon faked Bran and Rickon's death  with those ending up being fake.

Of course, the opening chapter of Winds of Winter could be the battle between Stannis and the Boltons with Stannis getting killed then. Yet, I don't think all of Ramsay's letter is a bluff as he seems to know quite a bit, yet doesn't have Theon, who last we knew made it to Stannis. So Theon got away even if Stannis got killed. I just hope Asha makes it out of there ok.


There are just so many cool moments- like Arya going into the room with all the faces and getting a new one, or Bran and Company with Coldhands fighting off the Wights and meeting the Children of the Forest. Thats a pretty bittersweet fate for Bran- I feel bad for him in that he'll never be able to have a normal life (he's clearly got the hots for Meera) and will end up as a tree zombie.

Modifié par Brockololly, 02 août 2011 - 09:36 .