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A Song of Ice and Fire book discussion (spoilers)


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#276
Addai

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Brockololly wrote...
Jon didn't bother me quite as much since in the end he kind of gets harsh consequences for his actions in the form of maybe, you know, dying.:whistle:

Meanwhile, what happens to Dany for being a naive, arrogant teen? She gets diarrhea and her period? :huh:

She nearly died, too.  She was burnt, starving, and the period was likely a miscarriage from being poisoned by the berries.  The poison probably would have killed her if she were not a Targ.  She does get some hereditary immunities.  Though Strong Belwas took the hit on the poisoned locusts and kept on keeping on... that dude and Selmy need to start kicking some Yunkai ass.

I think you're being too hard on our Dany.  Ruling an area and bringing peace after her invasions is doing something.  She's not moving or conquering, but she's learning statecraft the hard way.  And dragoncraft.  Certainly she is making mistakes- like her naivete about being able to single-handedly change the economy of the outer islands.

I did get impatient with Tyrion not making it to Meereen.


Of course, the opening chapter of Winds of Winter could be the battle between Stannis and the Boltons with Stannis getting killed then. Yet, I don't think all of Ramsay's letter is a bluff as he seems to know quite a bit, yet doesn't have Theon, who last we knew made it to Stannis. So Theon got away even if Stannis got killed. I just hope Asha makes it out of there ok.

I'm not sure who wrote that letter.  It's a bit up in the air in my mind.  I don't think it was necessarily Ramsay.

There are just so many cool moments- like Arya going into the room with all the faces and getting a new one, or Bran and Company with Coldhands fighting off the Wights and meeting the Children of the Forest. Thats a pretty bittersweet fate for Bran- I feel bad for him in that he'll never be able to have a normal life (he's clearly got the hots for Meera) and will end up as a tree zombie.

Bran warging into Hodor was one of those moments I was shouting YESSS at the page.  But yeah, his fate is pretty bittersweet, and more bitter than sweet.  Poor little guy.  Image IPB

Modifié par Addai67, 02 août 2011 - 11:32 .


#277
TJPags

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I'm about 24% into the book so far (on Kindle, don't know page numbers) and I have to ask:

At this point, was anyone else thinking this is another Crossroads of Twilight?

I also have to ask - does it remain that way?

Because thus far, I'm really rather disappointed . . . .

#278
LTD

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Few interesting SoIaF-related games/mods:

Westeros: Total War
Total conversion for Medieval: Total War . Haven't tried it myself but community building it looks very dedicated. Engine of Total War series is quite impressive so it's easy to look forward to this. 

War of the Usurper
Total conversion for Crusader Kings: Deus Vult. Even the unmodded Crusader Kings makes a very unique experience; can't recall seeing many dynasty/family simulators:p As such, it makes an incredibly fun framework for a SoIaF game. Sadly the mod inherits few severe flaws of the vanilla game. Combat is very poorly done and A.I as a whole makes dysfunctional mess. Still, it is very entertaining and unique game to try!

Ofc, we have the official game up and coming as well. Have you ever seen a trailer with less taste?
Seriously...:l Do these people have nobody in the room who'd be able to go " guys..." when a " guys...." is direly needed:l

Modifié par LTD, 03 août 2011 - 01:50 .


#279
Brockololly

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Addai67 wrote...
She nearly died, too.  She was burnt, starving, and the period was likely a miscarriage from being poisoned by the berries.  The poison probably would have killed her if she were not a Targ.  She does get some hereditary immunities.

I probably need to re-read the last couple chapters...I was half asleep when I finished the book and likely missed stuff.

Addai67 wrote...
Though Strong Belwas took the hit on the poisoned locusts and kept on keeping on... that dude and Selmy need to start kicking some Yunkai ass.

I was so happy to see Barristan get some POV chapters. And Barristan and Belwas need a buddy movie spinoff:lol:

Addai67 wrote...
I think you're being too hard on our Dany.  Ruling an area and bringing peace after her invasions is doing something.  She's not moving or conquering, but she's learning statecraft the hard way.  And dragoncraft.  Certainly she is making mistakes- like her naivete about being able to single-handedly change the economy of the outer islands.


It just seems like an ego thing with her- like she is naive enough and inexperienced enough (and still a stupid little kid really) but because of her name and her dragons, nobody is smacking her upside the head to get her romantic notions of being able to single handedly change things like slavery and and so forth from Mereen. I just want somebody to tell it to her face that she is a stupid little girl that needs to get out of that **** hole Slaver's Bay and get to Westeros where she is meant to be. Hopefully Tyrion is that guy or maybe Jorah.

Addai67 wrote...
I did get impatient with Tyrion not making it to Meereen.

Yeah...I think they likely could have cut the slavery bit and not lost too much. I thought he'd do something crazy in the Fighting Pit and that was why GRRM put him in that situation, but nope. Poor Crunch and Pretty Pig though :crying:


Addai67 wrote...
I'm not sure who wrote that letter.  It's a bit up in the air in my mind.  I don't think it was necessarily Ramsay.


True...cause doesn't he usually write on pieces of skin and use blood as ink? Whereas this was written in normal ink? Maybe it was Mance writing it? But then why? Why would he want to get Jon down from the Wall?

Really, Ramsay has 2 people to worry about- Theon and Jon. Cause they're likely the only 2 people nearby that could ID "Arya" as not really Arya. And thus that would likely turn the North against the Boltons as they'd lose the claim to Winterfell. 

I just want to see how Littlefinger and Sansa work into things with trying to claim the North. Not to mention if Davos is able to get Rickon back, as Rickon would come before Sansa....and I think Bran has taken root north of the Wall for good. (I'm sorry thats horrible:P)

TJPags wrote...

I'm about 24% into the book so far (on Kindle, don't know page numbers) and I have to ask:

At this point, was anyone else thinking this is another Crossroads of Twilight?

I also have to ask - does it remain that way?

Because thus far, I'm really rather disappointed . . . .


*googles Crossroads of Twilight*

Oh, I haven't read Wheel of Time...
But if you're 24% in thats... about page 230 in the hardcover. The beginning is slow and the book very much feels like the second half to AFfC. But I think it picks up- definitely with the stuff in the North. However the Essos stuff drags and in the end, the book leaves far more unresolved than it resolves (and even then its laden with cliffhangers).

It makes me wonder how in the world GRRM will supposedly finish this in 2 more books given how glacial some of the plots are moving.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 août 2011 - 01:49 .


#280
TJPags

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Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I'm about 24% into the book so far (on Kindle, don't know page numbers) and I have to ask:

At this point, was anyone else thinking this is another Crossroads of Twilight?

I also have to ask - does it remain that way?

Because thus far, I'm really rather disappointed . . . .


*googles Crossroads of Twilight*

Oh, I haven't read Wheel of Time...
But if you're 24% in thats... about page 230 in the hardcover. The beginning is slow and the book very much feels like the second half to AFfC. But I think it picks up- definitely with the stuff in the North. However the Essos stuff drags and in the end, the book leaves far more unresolved than it resolves (and even then its laden with cliffhangers).

It makes me wonder how in the world GRRM will supposedly finish this in 2 more books given how glacial some of the plots are moving.


I describe Crossroads quickly as the "meanwhile" book.  Much like FFC, Winter's Heart, the preceding book, focuses mainly on 1 major plot point.  Along comes Crossroads, which basically tells us what everyone else was doing while the events of Winter's Heart were occurring.  The timelines match up at the end, but nothing really ever gets resolved in Crossroads, and I - along with many other readers - were left wondering just what was so important about the other characters that we needed a whole book to tell us what they were doing when interesting things were happening.

So far, I feel the same way about aDwD.  Feast had its flaws, but I did think it was a good book, just not as complete as it should have been - clearly, since it was cut in half, essentially, leaving out several plotlines and characters.  At the point I am in aDwD, I'm wondering just what it is that's so important about the events of these characters that we need to devote a book to following them.

I like Jon's plotline.  I like Dany's plotline, and Tyrions.  I like them a lot.  But so far, Jon seems to be whining to himself about Stannis, Dany is doing nothing of any value in Meereen - and that REALLY irks me, having heard about the damn "MEEREENESE KNOT" for years - and Tyrion is taking a slow ride to nowhere.

Please tell me I didn't wait 6 years for a book that's basically full of, "Meanwhile, this other stuff happened, in case you were interested".  Because so far, I'm not interested.

#281
Addai

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The beginning is a bit slow, and disorienting, because you're going back in time to the beginning of AFfC, only seeing events from the other POV characters. At first I was thinking "huh, Sam's on the Wall?" Then I realized that we'd jumped back. Although I must say I loved the prologue with Varamyr Sixskins.

A lot of people do complain that not enough happens. I'm content to not be one of them, but you might be.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 03:33 .


#282
Addai

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LTD wrote...

Few interesting SoIaF-related games/mods:

I think ASoIaF is going to be like LOTR for me- too sacred to be messed with for the sake of gameplay shenanigans.

#283
Brockololly

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TJPags wrote...
So far, I feel the same way about aDwD.  Feast had its flaws, but I did think it was a good book, just not as complete as it should have been - clearly, since it was cut in half, essentially, leaving out several plotlines and characters.  At the point I am in aDwD, I'm wondering just what it is that's so important about the events of these characters that we need to devote a book to following them.


I think there is a fair amount of bloat in ADwD- to the extent that you end up with  practically most of Ilyrio and Tyrion's early stuff as elaborate descriptions of food. I don't mind some of that, but it gets repetitive. And again, I'd say especially Dany's stuff, it didn't get interesting for me until the point where Dance pretty much goes beyond the timeline of Feast.

TJPags wrote...
I like Jon's plotline.  I like Dany's plotline, and Tyrions.  I like them a lot.  But so far, Jon seems to be whining to himself about Stannis, Dany is doing nothing of any value in Meereen - and that REALLY irks me, having heard about the damn "MEEREENESE KNOT" for years - and Tyrion is taking a slow ride to nowhere.

Please tell me I didn't wait 6 years for a book that's basically full of, "Meanwhile, this other stuff happened, in case you were interested".  Because so far, I'm not interested.


Well, it kind of is just that.

But I'd say the stuff happening in the North with Davos, Jon (once Stannis stops being the annoying house guest that won't leave), Reek, Bran, Asha and the Boltons is some of the best stuff in the series. So the stuff in the North and then later on in the Riverlands, King's Landing, Dorne and the rest of Westeros is solid. It doesn't really resolve much, but it seemingly sets the table for The Winds of Winter to start with a bang.

The problem is with Dany and Mereen, as she seems perpetually stuck. And while you can see where some plot threads and characters will hopefully meet up with Dany, thats the problem in that hardly any of that happens in Dance.

I think the big thing is, the number of POVs needs to get cut down or at least people need to start coming back together in more common geographical areas. So many of the POV characters are so far apart and spread out that it feels like everything is spread so thin that the overall plot is stalled out. Stuff with like Bran only getting a couple chapters or how Davos' stuff is limited to the first half of the book.

Hopefully tWoW can sort that out, as I really though Game of Thrones managed the POVs and switching back and forth the best of all the books and especially with Feast and Dance things have gotten pretty messy.

#284
twincast

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LTD wrote...

Few interesting SoIaF-related games/mods:

Westeros: Total War
Total conversion for Medieval: Total War . Haven't tried it myself but community building it looks very dedicated. Engine of Total War series is quite impressive so it's easy to look forward to this. 

War of the Usurper
Total conversion for Crusader Kings: Deus Vult. Even the unmodded Crusader Kings makes a very unique experience; can't recall seeing many dynasty/family simulators:p As such, it makes an incredibly fun framework for a SoIaF game. Sadly the mod inherits few severe flaws of the vanilla game. Combat is very poorly done and A.I as a whole makes dysfunctional mess. Still, it is very entertaining and unique game to try!

Ofc, we have the official game up and coming as well. Have you ever seen a trailer with less taste?
Seriously...:l Do these people have nobody in the room who'd be able to go " guys..." when a " guys...." is direly needed:l

Installing mods for M2:TW's steam edition is a ****, so I haven't come around to try it out yet.

A while ago I got pretty far as Dorne conquering them all, but then the disloyalty downward spiral started up again. I'm so damn glad CK2's finally gonna tell the player what the other characters' freaking problems are (as will Sengoku, I dare presume). There's some titular bloopers as well, I wish they'd iron out.

Well, the trailer looks like something out of 2001 and I'm still a little bit confused how big the maps in the RTS are gonna be exactly, but I'm looking forward to both it and the RPG.

#285
BigEvil

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Just finished reading last night. Lots of thoughts swirling around so I'll see what I write. Feel free to skip chunks of my post, it's likely waffling.

I can safely say I enjoyed the book quite a lot. I don't mind things dragging a bit. After all, I'm Scottish, the most boring drudgery in a book is still more appealing than the local weather. I quite enjoyed learning more about the world during the travels of Tyrion, Quent, and Victarion (with his burnt, smoking, arm of badassery!) especially finding out more about grey scale. There were times in the Dany chapters that I was getting sick of Daario. I kind of hope that the corpses being flung from the trebuchets at the end of Ser Barristan's last chapter will include Darrio, but then when Dany finds out we'll have to suffer through her grieving for him.:sick:

Overall, I'd agree with most others that the North chapters were the best part of the book. I liked how Jon's chapters seemed to show him desperately struggling to point out the bigger picture to everyone (especially Bowen and Yarwyck) and them not getting it. Most of what he did would have likely been beneficial to fighting the Others but they did not seem to get it. They seemed far too intent on keeping their old hatreds than working against a foe they know is going to kill them all indescriminately. The ironic thing is, in aFfC we have the Lannisters setting up a plot to remove Jon Snow, and the rest of the Night's Watch did it for them. I can't remember if they actually sent those troops north, but those guys are gonna be disappointed when they finally reach the Wall. Especially since they'll lose guys through the winter, and the chaos in the North just now.

Bran's chapters were very interesting, although I'm going to re-read the part where he gets visions looking through the trees. I'm still wondering if Coldhands is Benjen Stark or if Benjen will somehow turn up alive elsewhere. Also, a thought, we know that both the Lord of Light and the Others can raise the dead in some fashion, but there are clear differences. From what we know of Coldhands, it seems to me he's somewhere inbetween the Wights and those revived by red priests.

After reading aFfC I had kind of disgarded Wyman Manderly as a fat fool who had likely caved to what the Lannisters wanted, even though they were in no position to do anything to him or Davos. Now I realise how foolish I was, because he's the god-damned Merman! So great, and I loved Davos' chapters. I had not realised about the Frey pie though, that went totally over my head. Looking forward to seeing more of Manderly, hopefully White Harbor will pay the Freys back properly. The North remembers!

After seeing Stannis gather the hill clans in the North, and a brief mention by Tyrion, is anyone else really starting to miss Shagga, Timmet and the others from the mountain tribes? IIRC they were in the woods south of King's Landing, maybe they could join up with Aegon at some point. I kind of doubt GRRM would kill off Stannis, Asha, and all the characters with them off screen. I agree that at the very least the battle will open the next book. I'm sort of wondering if all the flaws with Stannis being Azor Ahai will turn out to be red herrings or people (in world) clinging too much to the old story of Azor Ahai to believe that it is in fact Stannis. It would almost be worth it to give Stannis a big I told you so moment of victory and vindication, hopefully while buggering the Boltons with his magic sword.

I'm also thinking that since Asha's remaining crew turned up from Deepwood Motte, it's entirely possible they have the news about Arnolf Karstark being on Bolton's side. If Stannis believes them and cleans house before the Boltons show up, he at least eliminates the ace up their sleeves and just has to deal with superior numbers and a poorly defensible position.

Maybe this is obvious and that's why nobody has said anything, but I get the feeling that Brienne turning up and going off alone with Jaime is a very bad thing. It just screamed trap to me. It's still not been confirmed what Brienne said when she was being hanged to get out of it, but I think she's leading Jaime into an ambush for Stoneheart.

Thinking about the prophecy for Dany, with people mentioning Quentyn being the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, I wondered about the sea drying up. Maybe that refers to the Dothraki sea, which during Dany's final chapters there was an off-hand mention of the grass turning brown and dying (presumably due to autumn/winter) which would technically be the sea drying up. Also, quick thought, was the line about the mountains something to do with them turning to ash and blowing in the wind. The place where Drogon was nesting, "Dragonstone", there was a mention somewhere about ash rising from it. Of course this could all be foreshadowing, metaphor or simple misdirection.

Ser Barristan's chapters were great I thought, showing him as a badass, his thoughts on honour and so on. Also, from part of what he said about the tourney which Rhaegar won, it seems like he believes that Ned went with Ashara Dayne, but there was mention of a still-birth so I wonder why he didn't question where Jon came from. Unless he believes that Ned Stark was a lot less honourable than just one indiscretion. Strong Belwas is awesome, goes without saying, and I quite like the Shavepate too. He's kind of like a novice Varys.

Epilogue was great, although I'm kind of sad that Ser Kevan had to go, but glad to see the Spider again. Oooh, intrigue!

Tyrion as always was great, I do really wish he would have gotten to meet Dany though. I think it'd be rather amusing if when he does he thinks that people have hyped her beauty up a bit too much.

Probably other things I've forgotten to mention, but I'll leave it there for now.

#286
Addai

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BigEvil wrote...
I can safely say I enjoyed the book quite a lot. I don't mind things dragging a bit. After all, I'm Scottish, the most boring drudgery in a book is still more appealing than the local weather.

LOL  Here's the thing about a close third-person type of writing:  You either have to tell it all, or you skip around a lot and risk the reader losing track of where the character has been.  GRRM has decided to err on the side of telling it all.  I don't mind, because I find his character portraits and world building fascinating.

 Most of what he did would have likely been beneficial to fighting the Others but they did not seem to get it.

Yeah I thought his point that they either save the wildlings and have them fighting for the Watch, or wait until they're zombified enemies, was an especially big "DUH" that no one else seemed to get.

Bran's chapters were very interesting, although I'm going to re-read the part where he gets visions looking through the trees. I'm still wondering if Coldhands is Benjen Stark or if Benjen will somehow turn up alive elsewhere.

I got the idea that he'd been dead a long time.  I'm interested in who Coldhands is, too.

After reading aFfC I had kind of disgarded Wyman Manderly as a fat fool who had likely caved to what the Lannisters wanted, even though they were in no position to do anything to him or Davos. Now I realise how foolish I was, because he's the god-damned Merman! So great, and I loved Davos' chapters. I had not realised about the Frey pie though, that went totally over my head. Looking forward to seeing more of Manderly, hopefully White Harbor will pay the Freys back properly. The North remembers!

Davos working for the OG Manderly just makes me sooo happy.  Image IPB

Thinking about the prophecy for Dany, with people mentioning Quentyn being the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, I wondered about the sea drying up. Maybe that refers to the Dothraki sea, which during Dany's final chapters there was an off-hand mention of the grass turning brown and dying (presumably due to autumn/winter) which would technically be the sea drying up.

 Yep, that's the running theory.

Ser Barristan's chapters were great I thought, showing him as a badass, his thoughts on honour and so on. Also, from part of what he said about the tourney which Rhaegar won, it seems like he believes that Ned went with Ashara Dayne, but there was mention of a still-birth so I wonder why he didn't question where Jon came from. Unless he believes that Ned Stark was a lot less honourable than just one indiscretion.

He must think so, since he says Ashara had a stillborn daughter.  Although there is some discussion about whether "the Stark" Selmy refers to there is Ned or Brandon.  We learn from Barbrey Ryswell that Brandon was a bit of a playa.

Selmy's chapters seem to rule out Ashara as Jon's babymama.  R+L=J is all but certain.  Image IPB

Strong Belwas is awesome, goes without saying, and I quite like the Shavepate too. He's kind of like a novice Varys.

Epilogue was great, although I'm kind of sad that Ser Kevan had to go, but glad to see the Spider again. Oooh, intrigue!

I was really interested in the greater background on Illyrio.  He and Varys, what is their deal?  They are quite the kingmakers.  I wonder what it is about the Targaryens that has them working so hard for a Targ return?

#287
Eski.Moe

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Yeah, Illyrio's deal in all this interests me. Why is he involved in all this when he seems to be in a different world?
You've also got the wildcard, The Tattered Prince who seems intent on retaking Pentos. Will that do anything to Illyrio's plans?

Many, many questions. Haha.

#288
Addai

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Eski.Moe wrote...

Yeah, Illyrio's deal in all this interests me. Why is he involved in all this when he seems to be in a different world?
You've also got the wildcard, The Tattered Prince who seems intent on retaking Pentos. Will that do anything to Illyrio's plans?

Many, many questions. Haha.

Some people are suggesting Aegon is really Illyrio's son.

I want Aegon to be the real deal.  It was too sad to think the Targs were dying out.

The Westerosi were having fun with the Manderly stuff.

Image IPB

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 07:15 .


#289
Maria13

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There's speculation that after his 'Reek' interlude Theon stands a chance of being elected king of the iron isles. I think this is over-optimistic, certainly Asha may attempt to use him to make Euron's election invalid... But I was wondering more whether he is set to become a Damphair like his once jolly uncle...

#290
BigEvil

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Addai67 wrote...
I was really interested in the greater background on Illyrio.  He and Varys, what is their deal?  They are quite the kingmakers.  I wonder what it is about the Targaryens that has them working so hard for a Targ return?


Varys does seem to be about serving and saving the Realm, maybe they know about the Others and believe that the reborn Azor Ahai must be a Targaryen like some of the other red priests we've been introduced to? Mind you, that seems unlikely, as both seem to be men of logic rather than men of faith.

It's gonna be so exciting wondering though, and finding out eventually.

Another thing I forgot to mention, the identity of Ser Robert Strong. Obviously the epilogue heavily implies that everyone thinks it's Gregor Clegane under that helmet, but I can't see it being that simple. Even if the skull taken to Dorne is not Clegane's, it seems far too blunt to be true. Ser Kevan mentions that nobody sees Strong eat, drink or use the privy, pointing to him being undead. But the only one around who could have brought him back to life is Qyburn and I seriously doubt he could do it as he seems to be more about SCIENCE! than a mixture of science and magic like the arch-maester Sam meets. Franken-Mountain would seem kind of out of place next to the Wights and red priest revived folks like Dondarrion and Stoneheart. I'm kind of hoping he'll just be a new character concealing his identity for some reason.

#291
Brockololly

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BigEvil wrote...

I kind of doubt GRRM would kill off Stannis, Asha, and all the characters with them off screen. I agree that at the very least the battle will open the next book.


AT the very least, Theon and "Arya" seemed to have escaped if that battle really happened. Which makes me wonder if Asha would have gotten out with Theon, her crew and the Braavosi banker. Cause I have a feeling that Braavosi banker has a role to play yet- whether thats in maybe funding Stannis or maybe calling a certain new Faceless Man to take out a certain Lannister who doesn't pay her debts?

I think that letter is mostly BS the more I think about it. 

BigEvil wrote...
I'm also thinking that since Asha's remaining crew turned up from Deepwood Motte, it's entirely possible they have the news about Arnolf Karstark being on Bolton's side. If Stannis believes them and cleans house before the Boltons show up, he at least eliminates the ace up their sleeves and just has to deal with superior numbers and a poorly defensible position.


Thats one thing I want to see out of Stannis- we know he's supposed to be this very well respected commander and yet we've not seen him really win any big victories, except riding to the rescue against the Wildlings at the Wall. It would be nice if we could see him win some military victory on his own without having to cheat with instant kill Shadow Babies.

BigEvil wrote...
Maybe this is obvious and that's why nobody has said anything, but I get the feeling that Brienne turning up and going off alone with Jaime is a very bad thing. It just screamed trap to me. It's still not been confirmed what Brienne said when she was being hanged to get out of it, but I think she's leading Jaime into an ambush for Stoneheart.

Yeah, I was happy to see Brienne show up all for one second. It certainly seems like she's there to take Jaime back to Stoneheart, otherwise how did Brienne manage to get free from the noose? And what happened to poor Pod!?:(

BigEvil wrote...
Epilogue was great, although I'm kind of sad that Ser Kevan had to go, but glad to see the Spider again. Oooh, intrigue!


Yeah, Kevan was awesome and maybe the only decent Lannister. Of course, now that Jaime seems to be an ok guy, he'll probably get killed off too.:pinched: But it was nice to see Varys again. I was wondering where he had been and then he just shows up!

Addai67 wrote...
R+L=J is all but certain.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png


The one thing with that theory that always gets me is that it makes me feel terrible for poor Robert. That is, if Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, leaving Robert. Just watching the show and that one scene with Robert in the crypt, I feel really bad for him- that the one woman he loved left/or was taken from him and even though he won the throne, thats not really what he wanted out of his Rebellion. Bittersweet, I guess.

And I still want to know how Lyanna died? Did she just die in childbirth? That would be pretty lame.

Hopefully Howland Reed gets introduced soon. If there is one person that likely has tons of answers its probably him...or maybe Bran once he starts branching out :pinched:

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 août 2011 - 08:13 .


#292
Addai

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BigEvil wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I was really interested in the greater background on Illyrio.  He and Varys, what is their deal?  They are quite the kingmakers.  I wonder what it is about the Targaryens that has them working so hard for a Targ return?


Varys does seem to be about serving and saving the Realm, maybe they know about the Others and believe that the reborn Azor Ahai must be a Targaryen like some of the other red priests we've been introduced to? Mind you, that seems unlikely, as both seem to be men of logic rather than men of faith.

It's gonna be so exciting wondering though, and finding out eventually.

I keep wondering about his phrase "for the children."  What children?  What does he mean by that?  Is that just irony because he's a eunuch?  I feel like it's one of those things that must be staring me in the face and I just can't figure out his angle.*

I suspect that some of this has to do with the Blackfyre rebellion.  GRRM spent too much time in the Dunk and Egg stories setting that up for all the Blackfyres to just disappear.  Now we have Aegon showing up.  It's possible he's a Blackfyre, but which side are Varys and Illyrio really on?  Or don't they care- they want a dragon, even if it's a black dragon?

Franken-Mountain...lol


* You know.... this is a crackpot theory, but I wonder if Varys could mean the Children of the Forest.  We know that there was a dwarf woman who hung around the Targaryens and prophesied, she had red eyes, and probably is the Ghost of High Heart that Cersei hears rumors about in the Riverlands.  After Bran's chapters in ADWD it seems certain that she's a CotF.  Could Varys be working for her and his "for the children" is a play on words?

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 09:14 .


#293
Brockololly

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BigEvil wrote...
Another thing I forgot to mention, the identity of Ser Robert Strong. Obviously the epilogue heavily implies that everyone thinks it's Gregor Clegane under that helmet, but I can't see it being that simple. Even if the skull taken to Dorne is not Clegane's, it seems far too blunt to be true. Ser Kevan mentions that nobody sees Strong eat, drink or use the privy, pointing to him being undead. But the only one around who could have brought him back to life is Qyburn and I seriously doubt he could do it as he seems to be more about SCIENCE! than a mixture of science and magic like the arch-maester Sam meets. Franken-Mountain would seem kind of out of place next to the Wights and red priest revived folks like Dondarrion and Stoneheart. I'm kind of hoping he'll just be a new character concealing his identity for some reason.


Yeah, the fact that people seem to be taking "Robert Strong" in stride seems kind of jarring.

I don't know what the heck Qyburn was doing in that dungeon but didn't he use Falyse Stokeworth for whatever he was doing too? 

Another thing regarding the not needing to eat/drink  aspect is that apparently Melisandre doesn't need to eat/drink either. Don't know if there is any connection or if Qyburn is just a Dr. Frankenstein.

Just seems kind of weird seeing something like Strong which is pretty fantastical in King's Landing which has so far been mostly politics and next to no wierd, supernatural type stuff.

#294
Addai

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Brockololly wrote...
The one thing with that theory that always gets me is that it makes me feel terrible for poor Robert. That is, if Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, leaving Robert. Just watching the show and that one scene with Robert in the crypt, I feel really bad for him- that the one woman he loved left/or was taken from him and even though he won the throne, thats not really what he wanted out of his Rebellion. Bittersweet, I guess.

And I still want to know how Lyanna died? Did she just die in childbirth? That would be pretty lame.

I assume she died from complications of birth.  Why is that lame?  It's very sad.  Image IPB

Eh, I don't feel that badly for Robert.  He's a wh*remonger, Lyanna had his number, that's why she didn't want to marry him.  The vibe I get from Robert vis a vis Lyanna is "you're mine, no one else can have you."  Not a respectful affection.  What I would like to know is if he actually knew she went willingly with Rhaegar and started his rebellion anyway.

I love the idea that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and that Rhaegar fell in love with her when he figured it out and realized what a smoking badass she was apart from the pretty face.  That also gives context to his giving her the crown at Harrenhal- not just because he loved her, but because she deserved to win.  GRRM sure loves that "mystery knight" mechanic.  Don't we all.  Image IPB

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 08:35 .


#295
WidowMaker9394

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Did Ser Barristan have a thing with Lady Dayne at Harrenhal or did I get that all backwards?

#296
Addai

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WidowMaker9394 wrote...

Did Ser Barristan have a thing with Lady Dayne at Harrenhal or did I get that all backwards?

Had a thing for her, at least.

He laments that if he had been a better knight, he would have beaten Rhaegar in the final and then he'd have given the crown to Ashara Dayne and that might have prevented the war.

#297
Brockololly

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Addai67 wrote...
I assume she died from complications of birth.  Why is that lame?  It's very sad.  Image IPB


Oh, it would be sad, don't get me wrong. For some reason I can't help but think back to Episode 3 with Padme dying in childbirth and think how lame that was. In that she's perfectly healthy one minute and because the plot needed her dead, she dies.

Dying in childbirth for women characters in fiction often seems like a easy way for an author to quick, wave your hands and kill off a character. Obviously it can happen, but it can seem like a cheap out if not handled well.

Addai67 wrote...
Eh, I don't feel that badly for Robert.  He's a wh*remonger, Lyanna had his number, that's why she didn't want to marry him.  The vibe I get from Robert vis a vis Lyanna is "you're mine, no one else can have you."  Not a respectful affection.  What I would like to know is if he actually knew she went willingly with Rhaegar and started his rebellion anyway.


Thats true- its not like Robert was some bastion of moral integrity:lol:. And its likely that Robert had a very disconnected memory of Lyanna- one that had kind of warped with time, and he's not remembering things as they were.

Thats a good question too on whether Robert went to war anyway, if he knew Lyanna left him for Rhaegar willingly. Even if that was the case...I don't know, blame could likely go all around. Its an interesting backstory in any event and one we hopefully get a better picture of eventually.

#298
Addai

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Brockololly wrote...
Dying in childbirth for women characters in fiction often seems like a easy way for an author to quick, wave your hands and kill off a character. Obviously it can happen, but it can seem like a cheap out if not handled well.

I can see that, but it did happen a lot historically too.

The other sad irony being that Jon Connington tells us Elia would not have survived another childbirth.  Poor Rhaegar, his babies kill their mothers. 

....... which might be a clue about Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard?  Image IPB  Oh man, I'm in full Targ conspiracy theory mode today.  lol

Thats a good question too on whether Robert went to war anyway, if he knew Lyanna left him for Rhaegar willingly. Even if that was the case...I don't know, blame could likely go all around. Its an interesting backstory in any event and one we hopefully get a better picture of eventually.

With Aerys going the way he was going, it might have started anyway.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 10:30 .


#299
Brockololly

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Addai67 wrote...
With Aerys going the way he was going, it might have started anyway.


True...

Maybe I've got the timeline of events wrong, but did Robert start his rebellion before Rickard and Brandon went to King's Landing? Cause, yeah, assuming the Starks were still murdered, it likely would have been Ned's Rebellion instead.

Aerys was going down one way or another.

#300
Addai

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Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
With Aerys going the way he was going, it might have started anyway.


True...

Maybe I've got the timeline of events wrong, but did Robert start his rebellion before Rickard and Brandon went to King's Landing? Cause, yeah, assuming the Starks were still murdered, it likely would have been Ned's Rebellion instead.

Aerys was going down one way or another.

That came after.  Rickard and Brandon went to demand Lyanna's return and Rhaegar's comeuppance.  Aerys thought Rhaegar was plotting to take over his throne, so he might have thought they were all in on it together, but in any event he had Rickard roasted in his armor and Brandon died trying to save him.  Then Aerys called for the execution of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark and they were off to the races.  But he and Ned might have already been calling banners at that point, I'm not sure.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 10:53 .