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[BigEvil]

Addai67 wrote...

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

Did Ser Barristan have a thing with Lady Dayne at Harrenhal or did I get that all backwards?

Had a thing for her, at least.

He laments that if he had been a better knight, he would have beaten Rhaegar in the final and then he'd have given the crown to Ashara Dayne and that might have prevented the war.

That was something I saw recurring in this book, several characters musing over something they could have done or something they hoped would have been done which would have prevented the war. Ser Barristan as you say, but I believe Ser Kevan had a thought about it, and Cersei thinking about if Joffrey had allowed Ned to take the black.

Even with the riverlands under control, the Lannisters are not in a strong position anymore, especially if their alliance with Highgarden fractures further, neither is Stannis, or even Dany anymore, the North is divided for the time being, and for all the Ironborn's gains they've taken losses. The ones in the best position militarily just now are likely the Vale and Dorne, mainly because they didn't get involved. I can see Doran Martell and Littlefinger coming out of all this rather well if they don't take the wrong side towards the end.

As for Qyburn, I believe he wanted to study living bodies for research in terms of what the maesters normally use corpses for, anatomy, but pain limits and stuff like that too. That's why the potential re-animated corpse knight seems odd to me, as while it could go the way of him doing through science what others do with magic, it doesn't seem to fit. We've spent so long with magic itself being at the fringes of the setting, and appearance of Beric Dondarrion and Stoneheart being fairly shocking when you learn they've been revived, that to now have something like that done with science just seems wrong somehow, to me at least.

I quite like that crackpot theory about Varys and the children of the forest. If it's not them, perhaps he refers to Rhaegar's children (the princess who is certainly dead, and the prince who possibly is not, still not convinced about young Griff) and removing the Lannisters as a threat to Aegon's return is what he wants to do. I'd imagine they'd be the main ones to oppose him, the North is too far away and busy, Highgarden might go over to him as they stuck with the Targaryens right until the end of the Rebellion, Dorne has more reason to side with them than not, and Euron Crow's Eye isn't likely to get involved with any other group. Or perhaps Varys wants to eliminate as many people who were around during the Rebellion and start fresh for the children still to come. Varys is a tricky one to figure out, very good poker face.

[Addai]

About Franken-Mountain... could Qyburn be a red priest? Thinking about how they said people heard screaming for days reminds me of Victarion getting his arm fried and having it regenerate.

Re Varys: The Children of the Forest are tied up with the Targaryens somehow, I'm sure of it. The Ghost of High Heart was at Summerhall during the disaster with trying to bring dragons back. And now we find out that Bran's greenseer is Bloodraven, the Targ bastard who opposed the Blackfyres. Maybe the Children are working to bring Targs back because they know that's what is needed to fight the Others. In which case Varys working for them is not completely crackpot. Hmmmmmmm.

Which might also mean that the Others are stirring precisely because the Targaryens are gone from Westeros??  They sense that they'll be unopposed?

Modifié par Addai67, 03 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[BigEvil]

I suppose he could be a red priest but he was also kicked out of the Citadel (or left because they were holding him back from advancing science). Most of the red priests seem to have been slaves given over to the temples of R'hllor, I just wonder why someone tried from childhood to be a red priest would then go to become a maester, give up that and take up with a group like the Bloody Mummers.

Now that does make it seem more likely. I take it Bloodraven appears in the Dunk and Egg stories, or is mentioned at least? Pieces of the puzzle I don't have access to yet. So we know dragonglass can fight them, and Valyrian steel, and fire, hence dragonfire as well. That does make a great deal of sense.

Modifié par BigEvil, 03 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

About Franken-Mountain... could Qyburn be a red priest? Thinking about how they said people heard screaming for days reminds me of Victarion getting his arm fried and having it regenerate.

And what irony would it be if Zombie Gregor had his face hidden because its all toasty, roasty, burned to a crisp?

As for Qyburn, I guess maybe he picked up some red priest stuff while with the Mummers? He seems a pretty well traveled guy, so maybe he only learned some of the stuff necessary for his little experiment?

Seems to me that there is some connection between all this zombie stuff. In that you have people being being brought back to life by the Others, but also by R'hllor. And now with whatever Qyburn did.

Something just seems fishy with the Others and the R'hllor stuff. It just all seems to make too much sense that  its Fire vs. Ice and that so conveniently fits with Dany and the Dragons versus the Others. For some reason I'm thinking that R'hllor is simply another facet of the Others, and that the red priests like Mel are unknowingly helping out the Others. Thats my conspiracy theory.

And with regard to Bloodraven, I really need to read the Dunk and Egg stories. I totally felt left out there with some of that stuff- like there were little tidbits with Bran and even with Aemon in AFfC that would have made more sense had I had some of that backstory.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[Addai]

BigEvil wrote...
Now that does make it seem more likely. I take it Bloodraven appears in the Dunk and Egg stories, or is mentioned at least?

Yep.  He doesn't personally appear in the stories, but during that time he is Hand of the King and Dunk hears a lot about him.  He's said to be a sorcerer and to have "a thousand eyes and one"- referring to the fact that he lost an eye during the Blackfyre Rebellion but had a vast spy network (** which Varys could have inherited!!  dun dun DUN **).  He was fairly hated in the realm, and eventually got sent to the Wall and became Commander of the Night's Watch.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 août 2011 - 12:06 .

[Eski.Moe]

Addai67 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
With Aerys going the way he was going, it might have started anyway.

True...

Maybe I've got the timeline of events wrong, but did Robert start his rebellion before Rickard and Brandon went to King's Landing? Cause, yeah, assuming the Starks were still murdered, it likely would have been Ned's Rebellion instead.

Aerys was going down one way or another.

That came after.  Rickard and Brandon went to demand Lyanna's return and Rhaegar's comeuppance.  Aerys thought Rhaegar was plotting to take over his throne, so he might have thought they were all in on it together, but in any event he had Rickard roasted in his armor and Brandon died trying to save him.  Then Aerys called for the execution of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark and they were off to the races.  But he and Ned might have already been calling banners at that point, I'm not sure.

Add to that that he killed Jon Arryn's heir as well and that spells Aerys' end pretty much.

I was under the impression that Brandon went to KL first to demand that Rhaegar be brought to heel and made pretty much an ass of himself and that Rickard came after to bail him out. Aerys just killed them both because that's how he was. 

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Because they're part of a tradition.  People like that tradition.  You don't, or at least you're tired of it, but that's just your opinion.

Well, I said I disliked tradition. You were the one that objected to that, and made me explain myself.

See above.  There is nothing new under the sun.  All this postmodern storytelling, it's complete rot.  Stick to the old stories.  Even with something new added to them or with new twists, they work, and they'll always work.

Or create new ones. Using a theme and using a story is not the same thing. 

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Or if maybe, like how she used a glamor/charm on Mance, if she isn't hiding her real identity/appearance with her big huge ruby on her neck?

Maybe... but I bet the glamor was more a hint that this is what she used to create "Lightbringer". 

[Maria13]

Addai67 wrote...

About Franken-Mountain... could Qyburn be a red priest? Thinking about how they said people heard screaming for days reminds me of Victarion getting his arm fried and having it regenerate.

The Mountain was heard screaming for days in pain but that was because he was inoculated with a particularly painful slow-acting poison by the Red Viper...  Qyburn's victims do not make noises audible outside the Black Dungeons which in my view is even more sinister than screams of pain...

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

About Franken-Mountain... could Qyburn be a red priest? Thinking about how they said people heard screaming for days reminds me of Victarion getting his arm fried and having it regenerate.

The Mountain was heard screaming for days in pain but that was because he was inoculated with a particularly painful slow-acting poison by the Red Viper...  Qyburn's victims do not make noises audible outside the Black Dungeons which in my view is even more sinister than screams of pain...

I was suggesting the screams could be something else.  Can't remember the exact phrase but it said when Victarion was healed, there were terrible noises coming from his cabin.  Most of Qyburn's "subjects" wouldn't be targets for re-animation, if that's what was happening to Clegane.

It at least seems GRRM is laying down either some clues that the Mountain isn't really dead, or red herrings to make us wonder.

[BigEvil]

Were there not terrible noises along the lines of Victarion's arm being healed when the Maegi was doing the spell that kept Khal Drogo alive?

Maybe if Clegane is alive (which I really hope isn't what's going on) Qyburn knows similar blood magic to Mirri Maz whatsername. *warning, bad joke follows* You could call it the "Mirri Maz Effect". *I warned you.*

Still, I think the implication of who Robert Strong is during the epilogue was so heavy-handed that it would be truly disappointing if it is a re-animated Mountain. Perhaps he's just some giant slave they brought in from outside of Westeros, so they need to conceal that fact since slavery is illegal there and there's probably some law against making him part of the Kingsguard.

[Addai]

The Dorne stuff also made me wonder about the Mountain- it just seemed they were saying "is he dead? REALLY dead or just MOSTLY dead?" with a little too much emphasis. Of course, the Martells are suspicious, but already there I felt like GRRM was waving a little flag.

About our discussion yesterday of Targ babymamas dying.... I wonder if there really is something to that. Daenerys' mother died in childbirth, too. Maybe it goes along with the principle of death paying for life. The Targs who get special immunities take a toll on their mothers, especially if they're not a Targ (Lyanna, Elia). Though Jon isn't immune to fire, so I dunno, GRRM just may like to kill mothers off for teh dramaz.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 août 2011 - 08:53 .

[Maria13]

Yay on the babymommas in pre-modern societies death in childbirth is horribly common (one in three?) and that's not taking into account permanent disabilities caused by complications. So there is nothing sinister as and of itself is such deaths (there's a reason why they call it the 'bed of blood').

@BigEvil that was a really bad joke...

[BigEvil]

Addai67 wrote...

The Dorne stuff also made me wonder about the Mountain- it just seemed they were saying "is he dead? REALLY dead or just MOSTLY dead?" with a little too much emphasis. Of course, the Martells are suspicious, but already there I felt like GRRM was waving a little flag.

I thought the Martells were just suspicious enough, due to waiting so long for justice and not trusting the Lannisters an inch. Plus, they got a big skull, not even the entire skeleton, which would have been more conclusive. I'd imagine looking at the whole skeleton would make it clearer if it was Clegane or not. For all they knew it could have just been taken from a guy with a big head, and not the eight foot tall behemoth of a knight they wanted dead. Still, they mentioned Clegane had to be dead, because they knew the poison used.

Still doesn't rule out him being brought back, but I hope it's red herrings and not foreshadowing.

As for the death by childbirth thing, it is a bit strange having several women dying from childbirth connected to Targaryens, but I'm not sure if it's anything of note. I mostly considered such things to just be GRRM showing us a bit of medieval realism. Between them, Stannis' wife Selyse (I think I'm right in thinking she suffered miscarriges or still births), and Lysa Arryn, it paints a picture that life is difficult. One of the things I like about the series compared to some other fantasy I've read, is that people don't have perfect health, there are frailities. We need more details on Targaryens and their births. If Dany or Aegon (if he is the real Aegon) manage to have a kid with someone who isn't a Targaryen, then it might give us a clear answer, depending on if it kills a non-Targaryen mother, or if the child of a non-Targaryen father is sickly or still birth.

[Maria13]

Yeah, life is tough... At the beginning Varamyr makes very clear that his preference is not to undertake his next life as a female... And he already 'died' once before in childbirth, so he knows what a rough deal it can be.

[Addai]

The livestream interview that GRRM did a couple weeks ago is finally up on YouTube.  He answers questions readers submitted ahead of time.

He answered one thing I was wondering- I had heard that there was a Tyrion chapter he struggled with, put in and took out and rewrote many times.  I wondered which one it is.  Turns out, it wasn't included in ADWD at all, because he felt it led him to a dead end.  He did say that he might put it up on the web at some point (squee!).

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...

The livestream interview that GRRM did a couple weeks ago is finally up on YouTube.  He answers questions readers submitted ahead of time.

He answered one thing I was wondering- I had heard that there was a Tyrion chapter he struggled with, put in and took out and rewrote many times.  I wondered which one it is.  Turns out, it wasn't included in ADWD at all, because he felt it led him to a dead end.  He did say that he might put it up on the web at some point (squee!).

Nice find!

*goes off to watch*

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 août 2011 - 07:42 .

[Addai]

He also did an unfortunately short list of books that are in his library for the NY Post.

Makes me want to look into Maurice Druon.

He got me hooked on Cecelia Holland via her short story in the Warriors anthology, about a Viking sea battle which reminded me somewhat of Victarion's march.

[WidowMaker9394]

Daario really needs a good, sharp axe to be lodged firmly into place between his eyes. I'm sick of him and he singlehandedly ruins the Dany chapters.

Here's hoping for him to be another one of her betrayals.

[GodWood]

Okay just finished the book a moment ago and am super tired so I can only list my thoughts in brief dot points:

~ Reek chapters definitely the best.
~ Asha is still awesome
~ Val is awesome
~ I still hate Dany.
~ Wtf Daario, can anyone actually read this guy's description and take him seriously (and Dany's swooning makes it all the more confusing)
~ Nooo Stannis (but I doubt he's dead)
~ Nooo Jon (but I hope he's dead)
~ Pretty Pig and Crunch
~ Hated that there was only 2 Arya chapters.
~ Hated that there was only 1 Jaime chapter (and it left on a cliffhanger >.>)
~ Although a great book definitely the weakest in the series so far.

Modifié par GodWood, 09 août 2011 - 02:38 .

[Addai]

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

Daario really needs a good, sharp axe to be lodged firmly into place between his eyes. I'm sick of him and he singlehandedly ruins the Dany chapters.

I'm sure Victarion would be happy to provide. 

[Eski.Moe]

I'll admit, I was amused by some of the things that happened in Victarion's POV, but he annoys me for the most part. Wattadouche

[BigEvil]

Addai67 wrote...

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

Daario really needs a good, sharp axe to be lodged firmly into place between his eyes. I'm sick of him and he singlehandedly ruins the Dany chapters.

I'm sure Victarion would be happy to provide. 

I'd love to see that, Victarion might be a scumbag, but he's my kind of scumbag. I just hope we get to see the Iron Fleet smash the Yunkish blockade in a damn good naval battle.

[Addai]

BigEvil wrote...
I'd love to see that, Victarion might be a scumbag, but he's my kind of scumbag. I just hope we get to see the Iron Fleet smash the Yunkish blockade in a damn good naval battle.

Exactly!  Victarion has replaced Jaime as the dude I hate to love.  Say what you will about him, he gets **** done.

I think it's time for some fan art. 



by Matt Olson

[Brockololly]

Victarion is such a dick- his offering to R'hllor is so coldblooded. I can't help but think he doesn't care one bit about Dany but would be just as happy to do whatever it takes to get the dragons from her and move on.

And I started re-reading certain bits of ADwD and one thing that struck me was all the mention of plague and disease. Greyscale in particular- I'm guessing its going to play a role in Connington's story going forward and I wonder what the deal is with Val getting freaked out by Stannis' daughter? Could greyscale really still be contagious even in children?