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A Song of Ice and Fire book discussion (spoilers)


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#351
Addai

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Carfax wrote...
How else would you explain the various phenomena that takes place throughout the series, particularly when it comes to R'hllor?

There seems to be a pagan philosophy that is operating "for real" in the universe, and one of its rules is "death pays for life."  In which case the followers of R'hllor have banked a lot of death to do what they do.  Melisandre indicates she's one of the most effective, and yet even she is pretty limited, and hints at a hidden cost to herself.

In an interview GRRM mentioned dualism, and I would guess that's the main operating mythology.  Ice vs. fire, darkness vs. light, only without the usual good vs. evil things we take for granted.  I am guessing we'll find out that the Others have a rationale for what they do that will not be just "we're evil, we kill things for fun."  Something about having to cull the herd once in a while, or something.

[/ramble]

#352
Eski.Moe

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The Others are clearly the precursors to The Reapers.

#353
bobthecrusher

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Carfax wrote...

Ramsay Bolton should be given to the flames. The sacrifice of such an evil being would please R'hllor mightily methinks..

Anyway, what do you guys think about the supposed deities in ASoIF? Are they true deities, or merely manifestations of raw magical power that can be tapped into by those in the know?

I'm not sure what to think at this point. Common sense tells me that Martin would never create a REAL deity that interferes in the lives of mortals, because that would eventually require a lot more explanation to fully make sense..

Deities being manifestations/concentrations of raw magical power on the other hand, would be much easier to accept and explain......except that all throughout ASoIF, divine manifestations of power seem to be driven by a SENTIENT force.

How else would you explain the various phenomena that takes place throughout the series, particularly when it comes to R'hllor?


I would think closer to raw magical power, as you may have noticed, it's not just the followers of Rhollor that have special powers granted by their 'God' the many faced god gives his followers the ability to change their faces at will, but even this seems to have been explained a bit in this most recent book.

#354
In Exile

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Carfax wrote...

Ramsay Bolton should be given to the flames. The sacrifice of such an evil being would please R'hllor mightily methinks..

Anyway, what do you guys think about the supposed deities in ASoIF? Are they true deities, or merely manifestations of raw magical power that can be tapped into by those in the know?


We've never seen the 7, so I think we can write them off (save for what may well have been Davos's halucinations). They've certainly never done anything of note.

We've seen what the old gods were - greenseers, who could see everything a weirwood can and could have. Of course, that's not to say that when they die they don't become something more and are essentially like gods, which I think is Martin's point. They certainly become something more than human then, and arguably they always were. 

How else would you explain the various phenomena that takes place throughout the series, particularly when it comes to R'hllor?


That could just be magic, with a personification added on to it to make sense of it. Like how people use to think the sun was a personified god instead of a ball of hydrogen. 

#355
TJPags

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Well. I just finished aDwD earlier today . . . .

And, well . . .

I WAITED 11 YEARS FOR THIS??????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!

#356
Brockololly

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TJPags wrote...

Well. I just finished aDwD earlier today . . . .

And, well . . .

I WAITED 11 YEARS FOR THIS??????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!


Image IPB

I can only hope The Winds of Winter delivers, because aDwD really feels like a whole lot of setup. But in the case of Dany, she's still stuck in Mereen. *sigh*

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 août 2011 - 11:42 .


#357
TJPags

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Brockololly wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well. I just finished aDwD earlier today . . . .

And, well . . .

I WAITED 11 YEARS FOR THIS??????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!


Image IPB

I can only hope The Winds of Winter delivers, because aDwD really feels like a whole lot of setup. But in the case of Dany, she's still stuck in Mereen. *sigh*



Seriously.  6 years waiting for this book, because the the "Meerenese Knot", wherein GRRM couldn't figure out how to match the timeline of Dany to the other characters, and how to link them all up together.  And here we are, 6 years after FFC, 11 years after SoS . . . Dany is still in Meereen . . . actually, she's not even there, but it's not like she went anywhere else.  Those looking for her are still .  . .looking for her.  Well, I mean, Quentyn found her . . and yea, he's dead.  His arrival meant nothing in the scheme of things, anyway.  Tyrion - still trying to get there.  Jorah -still trying to get there.  Etc.  Etc.

Six years after Cersei got locked up for treason, she . . . .walked across the city naked.  Hasn't been tried yet.  Neither has Marjorie.

Sam got sent to Oldtown . . .I guess he's still there.  Okay, some things happened at the Wall.  While interesting, did the story advance?  Not really.

Honestly, I didn't mind Feast - I thought it was fine for half a book, what with missing Jon, and Dany, and Tyrion.  It seemed to advance the plot, move the story forward for half the characters.  I was looking forward to the movement of the other half of them.

Unfortunately, it seems that part of the story got cut.

I enjoy his writing, I enjoy his characters, I enjoy the story he started to tell us.  I was enjoying the book, yet I kept waiting for something significant to happen.  I'd been waiting 11 years, since SoS was published.  I'd been waiting to see how Jon's story, Tyrion's story, Dany's story, Bran and Rikkon, etc. advanced.

It's been 11 years.  I'm still waiting.

Words on a screen cannot convey my anger and frustration right now.

#358
GodWood

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The Reek plot was pretty good...

#359
TJPags

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GodWood wrote...

The Reek plot was pretty good...


Yet it went absolutely noplace, the same as every other plot in the book.

To paraphrase a post I just read on another forum: "six years, huge launch event, and nobody realized the book still wasn't finished".

#360
bobthecrusher

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TJPags wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Reek plot was pretty good...


Yet it went absolutely noplace, the same as every other plot in the book.

To paraphrase a post I just read on another forum: "six years, huge launch event, and nobody realized the book still wasn't finished".


It went no where? it went from The Dreadfort to Winterfell to Stannis, along the way picking up Jeyne and having him meet his sister again. That, my friend, is not nowhere.

#361
TJPags

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bobthecrusher wrote...

TJPags wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Reek plot was pretty good...


Yet it went absolutely noplace, the same as every other plot in the book.

To paraphrase a post I just read on another forum: "six years, huge launch event, and nobody realized the book still wasn't finished".


It went no where? it went from The Dreadfort to Winterfell to Stannis, along the way picking up Jeyne and having him meet his sister again. That, my friend, is not nowhere.


Short response:  So?

Long response:  Okay, let's examine.  He trundled from Dreadfort to Winterfell, along with Roose.  Whining all the way - quite incessantly, if you ask me - about remembering his name and his missing parts.  Yawn.

Did he meet up with Stannis?  His sister?  Are any of them alive right now?  Oh, not sure - cliffhanger, like the rest of the book.

He picked up Jeyne along the way . . . Sorry, I'm back to "So?".  Jeyne Poole has some kind of relevance to this story?  The girl we haven't seen since Sansa walked out of her room in GoT to meet with Cercei and the Council has some kind of relevance?  Sure, nice to know what happened to her . . . but is there a point to her in this story?  I can't see it.  And he didn't actually pick her up . . . she was picked up by Roose, who got her from someone at King's Landing . . likely Varys.

As I said, I did enjoy reading the book.  It's just that now it's over, and I'm sitting here wondering . . . why did this take 11 years to write?

#362
Brockololly

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I think its more that with most of the plots in aDwD, they don't seem to be at all finished. Most seem to be right in the middle of something when the book ends. Whereas in something like GoT, you have Ned's complete arc, Dany and Drogo's complete arc and then it hints at the beginning of new arcs like with Robb as King in the North or the dragons or Tyrion as Hand.

I think a big part of the problem was how the book was structured, where you have some awesome Davos or Bran chapters and then half way through, you never read anything about them again. I just think one of the biggest strengths of GoT especially and CoK and SoS is how all the characters are involved and the plot moves along nicely skipping from POV to POV, In Feast and aDwD, often times the POVs just seem like they're spinning their wheels and not going anywhere or moving to some plot point.

I would just really love to see somebody try to edit aFfC and aDwD together. That would be an interesting read I think.

#363
TJPags

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Brockololly wrote...

I think its more that with most of the plots in aDwD, they don't seem to be at all finished. Most seem to be right in the middle of something when the book ends. Whereas in something like GoT, you have Ned's complete arc, Dany and Drogo's complete arc and then it hints at the beginning of new arcs like with Robb as King in the North or the dragons or Tyrion as Hand.

I think a big part of the problem was how the book was structured, where you have some awesome Davos or Bran chapters and then half way through, you never read anything about them again. I just think one of the biggest strengths of GoT especially and CoK and SoS is how all the characters are involved and the plot moves along nicely skipping from POV to POV, In Feast and aDwD, often times the POVs just seem like they're spinning their wheels and not going anywhere or moving to some plot point.

I would just really love to see somebody try to edit aFfC and aDwD together. That would be an interesting read I think.


Structure has a lot to do with it, I think.  The book essentially plays catch up for the first half - as you pointed out to me a few days ago - to make up for certain characters and plotlines not being in Feast.  But the bigger problem is, I think, the first one you mentioned - lack of completion.

The plots go noplace.  Dany is in Meereen, wondering how to bring order, why people won't let her do it, how to stop the Harpy's, maybe she should leave . . . .and when the book ends, she's still there.  Okay, technically, she just got picked up by one of Drogo's old Po's (Pono, I think?  Whichever).  But she never left Meereen, not anywhere that matters.

Tyrion's plotline seemed to be him trying to get to Dany.  Who knows how many pages later, and he's still outside Meereen.  Sure, he introduced us to Griff and Aegon . . . but did we need him for that?  And even so, the Griff/Aegon plotline seemed lost for a bit (Structure again) but then came back with . . . well, no ending.  Although this one did seem to advance more than any other.

Bran got to the Greenseer . . . and?  Cersei got out of the Great Sept . . .and?  Arya got her sight back . . . and?  Jeyne Poole resurfaced . . . and?  Brienne survived (apprently) her meeting with Cat . . .and?  Jon got Stannis off the Wall, has somewhat of a peace with the Wildings . . . .and?

As you say, plot arcs were finished in prior books . . . GoT had the end of the Ned Arc, the end of the Drogo Arc, etc.  Clash gave us the Renly story, SoS gave us the red wedding and the end of Robb. . . . what did we get in Feast or in Dance?  The end of Cersei?  Maybe . . . maybe not, what with Kevan gone now.  She still hasn't had her trial.  Hell, we don't know yet if Loras is alive or dead.  Sure, we got the end of the Quentyn arc . . . .but did that matter much?

What happened with Davos and the Manderly's?  Stannis, alive or dead?  Anulf Karstark - traitor?

For a book that was the second half of the prior book, it felt more like the first half of the next book.  And after waiting 11 years for this "resolution", and 6 years for this actual book . . . . to say it's a disappointment is beyond an understatement.

#364
Addai

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Why were you waiting for resolution? There are two more books.

#365
LTD

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TJPags wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Reek plot was pretty good...


Yet it went absolutely noplace, the same as every other plot in the book.

Oh,hey,whoa,dude.

Reek/Theon chapters  made a fine example of just how long way a character can walk within relatively modest amount of pages. Well justified/told story of his inner growth and recovery, some repulsion and suspense  and such ending to wrap it all up with! Lovely arch I says.
Other than that your frustration makes dangerous amounts of sense, I recognize pale shadows of similar rage within myself, and I only  had to wait for a mere year:p

Modifié par LTD, 16 août 2011 - 02:44 .


#366
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Addai67 wrote...

Why were you waiting for resolution? There are two more books.


Because there was so much build-up and no finale.

#367
Addai

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Capt. Obvious wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why were you waiting for resolution? There are two more books.


Because there was so much build-up and no finale.

I don't understand... you knew this was not the final book.  Why should there be a finale?

#368
bobthecrusher

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Addai67 wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why were you waiting for resolution? There are two more books.


Because there was so much build-up and no finale.

I don't understand... you knew this was not the final book.  Why should there be a finale?


I vaguely agree, maybe it's because I read all of the books at once, but they have never seemed seperate books, just different chapters to one large book (A Song of Ice and Fire). GoT had the exact same type of cliff-hangers, getting hardly anything done, and while each had a clear and defininte finale, it was because he was writing them as novels (FfC didn't really have a finale either, though i suppose Cersce(sry for bad spelling) getting arrested could count) while this one he knew where he was going, knew what would happen, and had to get in everything that he had left out of FfC. Dany had her dragon arc (the first of three and now resolved) Theon had the rediscovering himself arc, Asha had the fall of the Ironborn arc, Davos kinda ended but it's obvious where he's going, Bran had the realizing exactly what he was fated to become arc, Tyrion had the traveling to Meereen arc, Jon Snow had the dealing with command arc. Every character had a part to play, and he likes to be thorough. It takes time to go places, (especially during winter) and every character was going places. He wanted you to know how these travels effected the characters and the world around them.

And it took him this long because of how much time it takes to develop a truly great plot, to cut out as many loopholes as possible, and try to make it all make sense. he needed to insure that every action had proper ripples, and that those ripples effected the rest of the characters correctly.

#369
TJPags

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Addai67 wrote...

Why were you waiting for resolution? There are two more books.


Where to begin, how to explain . . . .

Yes, I knew this was not the last book.  Word is, there might be 3 more - which doesn't surprise me, what with the vast amount of nothing I just read, but anyway - so yes, I know the overall story is not over.

When you write a series, it's not enough - to me - to write part of a story, bind it, put a title on it, and sell it.  "Part 1 of aSoIaF".  Each bound edition is still a book in its own right.

A book - which tells a story - should have (again, according to me) a beginning, a middle and an end.  Introduce us to our characters, tell us their problems, show us the solution.  I'm not saying there should never be a cliffhanger in a series.  However, in each book, I do expect certain things to be resolved, or at least to move toward that cliffhanger.

GoT introduced us to the world, showed us the Lannister-Baratheon conflict, resolved that with Robert's death.  It introduced the Starks, killed Ned (resolving his arc) and led us to the rise of the young wolf.  We were introduced to Dany and her brother, and Drogo, saw the end of her brothers aspirations, and the growth of Dany into someone not willing to cower behind or be led by someone (her brother) or to simply let someone else make decisions and do things (Drogo), but become someone ready to take that role herself.

Did Robb's story end?  Dany's?  No, of course not.  The series wasn't over.

CoK fleshed out Renly, introduced us to Balon.  We saw the end of Renly, the introduction of Brienne, the rise of Balon, the continued demise of the Starks.  Littlefinger was fleshed out, Tyrion became a major player (more than before), Cersei's ambitions (and delusions) began to be revealed.  Plots began, some ended, some expanded, but there was an ending to the book.

SoS brought us the Red Wedding, Brienne's search, Arya's flight continued, Jon's election as Lord Commander, etc.  Sure, there were cliffhangers there - did Brienne live, is Arya blind forever, Did Tyrion escape, etc.  Yet Joffrey was dead, Tywin was dead, Robb Stark was dead, the north broken, the Vale in the hands of Littlefinger.  Things ended.

Feast, for all it was half a book, gave us some excellent ending points - Cercei's capture, Theon's capture, the Kingsmoot on Pyke (or whichever island), Sam's arrival on Oldtown.  Plots moved, some were resolved, some had ending points.  Yes, many plots were left out entirely.

Then we get Dance.  Dany hangs out in Meereen.  Was there really any advance in her plot at all?  Tyrion, we learn, is off to the Free Cities to find Dany . . . .and at the end of the book, is still trying to do that.  Jon has been letting wilders flood through the gates of the Wall . . . . and not much else.  Wights?  Others?  No sign of them.  Jorah was trying to find a way back into the graces of Dany . .  .and stumbled on Tyrion.  So he's now essentially lost as well.
We met Quentyn - and he died.  We met Aegon . . . and he's not doing much, except invading a minor keep in the middle of nowhere.  Him meet with Dany?  Yea, sorry, she's busy in Meereen still.

Where was plot advancement?  I didn't see any.  Dany's in Meereen, Tyrion, Jorah and now Victarion are all still trying to find her.  Margaery is still locked up.  Cersei walked across the city naked, and then had dinner with her son and uncle. 

What resolved?  Quentyn?  Big deal.  Was there further shakeup in the Seven Kingdoms?  Nope.  Consolidation of power?  None of that either.    Uncle Kevan died.  As with Quentyn . . . big deal.  Perhaps a shock, but was Kevan Lannister viewed as a major player here?  I don't think so.  Tywin was the brains of that family. Jon is (perhaps) dead.  That is a big shock.  But what had changed at the Wall, anyway . . . . well, we now have a ton of wildings outnumbering the Night's Watch, rather than Stannis and his people.  Is Bran found?  Where's Rickon?

The fact that he caught the timelines up at the end makes it even worse - more Cersei chapters, but they advanced nothing from Feast.  A few Jaime chapters, ending with him walking into what may well be a trap.  Cliffhanger.  Cliffhangers work if things are also being resolved.  He resolved none of the cliffhangers he left us after SoS, and simply added more.

No, I didn't expect everything to be resolved.  But I expected a beginning, a middle and an end.  Instead, what I feel I got was a middle.  Maybe a little beginning.  But no ending.  At all.  Just a place where the book stopped.

Understand that I love this series.  It's one of my favorites.  A lot of my frustration probably stems from the fact I've been reading it - and re-reading it - since GoT came out in paperback in 1997, when I bought it.  I gobbled up CoK the minute it was released.  I did the same with SoS.  I waited patiently for five years for Feast, and even though it was half a book, enjoyed it.  I felt it did the job for the characters presented.  I waited - rather impatiently, I admit - 6 years for Dance, the other half of Feast.  Dance failed to deliver.

#370
Addai

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I do see that this book is more positioning- more setup for the final than something self-contained. I guess it just doesn't bother me, but then I came to the series fairly late so all along I've read it as an ongoing story.

I would say the biggest advancement in Dance is the turn towards the supernatural elements behind the story.

#371
TJPags

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Addai67 wrote...

I do see that this book is more positioning- more setup for the final than something self-contained. I guess it just doesn't bother me, but then I came to the series fairly late so all along I've read it as an ongoing story.

I would say the biggest advancement in Dance is the turn towards the supernatural elements behind the story.



Yes, I do absolutely see it as a set up for the last few books.  And I understand that this needs to happen in a series.  But the book, standing alone, should still add something, be something - not just positioning.  That's my problem with this book, really.  Standing alone, it's nothing.  I see that a lot in series . . . .the middle book seems to be just filler, people moving around, etc.  I hate it.  I really was looking forward to better.

I did see the advancement in more supernatural elements in this book.  Not sure how I really feel about that.  On one hand, it adds another aspect to the story.  On the other hand, this was very much a story of ordinary people, with a supernatural enemy lurking on the horizon.  Not sure I want to see the ordinary people start to gain supernatural powers.  But I'm willing to wait and see on that.

#372
Brockololly

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I just get the impression GRRM has too many plots and POVs going on at once right now and needs to get things condensed a bit. I think thats a big part of the problem with Dance in that the narrative is basically spread too thin. So you might have some awesome Bran or Davos chapters, but you have all of about 2 of them and then nothing else. It seems obvious the endgame for the series lies in Westeros with the Others and/or the dragons so to see Dany spinning her wheels in Mereen and everyone like Tyrion, Victarion and so forth going further away is frustrating when GRRM claims there are only 2 books left.

Given how slow the past 2 books have gone and barely creeped the overall big plot points forward, I have a hard time seeing how all will be wrapped up in 2 books, let alone 3 or 4. I don't want a rush job to finish, but stuff needs to happen.

Dance just feels like its spread too thin and the characters who do get big parts (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) don't go very far, Tyrion and Dany especially. But cliffhangers are a problem, especially since I think they lose their effectiveness when its a "death" cliffhanger of whether someone is alive or dead- cause when its years for the resolution to the cliffhanger, it loses the impact it might have had if it was resolved in the same book- like Ned definitely dying in GoT, having the result of the Red Wedding clear by the end of SoS or even Blackwater clearly being a big failure for Stannis by the end of CoK.

Dance just needed at least one big moment of at least a little resolution for one of the big plot points , if the series is going to finish in 2 more books. Even if it was just Dany finally leaving Mereen or having the Others attack the Wall or knowing for sure what the result of Stannis versus the Bolton's was. It needed a Blackwater type battle to more clearly set the stage for WoW, I think.

#373
TJPags

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Exactly, Brock. That's what I'm trying to say.

The book felt empty - no "moment". Just . . .very bland . . . .

#374
Addai

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He has a lot going on- I don't agree that it's too much or too many POVs. He knows he has to start bringing them together, but he had to set it up first. A big story doesn't move on a dime.

#375
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Addai67 wrote...

He has a lot going on- I don't agree that it's too much or too many POVs. He knows he has to start bringing them together, but he had to set it up first. A big story doesn't move on a dime.


Yes, but the book's problem is that it is just a set-up,