1269 réponses à ce sujet

[Eski.Moe]

Dany's not mad? I think that's debatable.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
It is said Lyanna had the wolf blood, that she was a stronger Stark than others who bore the name.  So I don't disbelieve at all that her child would be as Stark as Stark comes.

Tyrion has a line in AGOT - he says that, when looking at Jon, his mother left nothing in him, as he's clearly pretty much all Stark (pun totally intended). Were Lyanna his mother at Rhagear his father, that line becomes deliciously ironic. 

There's also the Jon looks like Arya looks like Lyanna line. And "Promise me, Ned." The blue flower growing in the wall of ice, and Lyanna being found with blue flowers... there's just so much pointing to R+L = J.

[Addai]

Dany's no more insane than your average teenage girl.

[Eski.Moe]

Average Targaryen teenage girl.
I don't mind her that much but a lot of her internal logic just strikes me as odd. Aerys wasn't too crazy when he started off too so...

[Addai]

For someone who grew up hunted and was sold to a barbarian tribe at the age of 13, she's pretty well adjusted, I'd say. o_O Half of Westeros is more cracked than she is.

[FedericoV]

@TJPags and In Exile: I know, the text gives many indirect confirmation to the R+L=J theory. It's the most plausible theory out there about Jon's parentage since it's the one with most confirmation and I would not be surprised if it turns out to be true. But untill Howland Reed tell us what's happened at the ToJ, we don't know for sure and the argument is open to debate. I simply don't buy it maybe even because we discussed that theory for 11 years at Westeros and now I'm tired of it . Seriously, that's my argument:

- Jon does not show the typical Targaryen temperament. Just one little example: we have read a lot about him and he never showed a fascination for fire.
- I do not believe that Ned would take the risk of bringing a child to his house that growing could look exactly like Rhaeghar.
- Jon does not have a single physical feature associated with Valyrian blood.
- That's a meta argument, but the R+L=J story looks too much like an arthurian tale (the once and future king) and that does not fit with GRRM's style. Most importantly, Jon being a Targ does not seem to fit with the plans that George seems to have in mind for him (if he is indeed the Last Hero/AA reborn).
- Parris (GRRM's wife) have said something on the line of "do you really expect something so clichè from George"? Maybe she was just teasing the audience but who knows...

As I said, I do not believe anymore that Jon is Ned's son. I think that he is the illigitimate son of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark. That would fit with Tyrion insight very nicely, and most of the times Tyrion is right.

@Addai67: See above for R+L=J. About Dany and the madness. The only sane Targ we meet so far in the series is Aemon. And he is very old when we meet him so we do not know for sure his exploit as a young dragon. What's the catchprhase? Everytime a Targ borns the gods toss a coin, one side is greatness, the other is madness. For Dany it seems to me that the coin is still spinning in the air (hopefully the side we'll see by the end of the series will be the "greatness" one). But she show many signs of instability and momentary lack of rationality during the books. Mind, it fits the charachter. She is the closer thing to a messianic and religious figure Martin have written:. Coupled that with the difficult life she had (as you have point out) and some sort of mental disorder have to be expected. Most Targ show some signs of madness and instability, even the best ones... btw, that's one of the reason why I believe that Cersei and Jaimie are Targaryen bastards (they are Mad Aerys's illigitimate sons).

@jcainhaze: Yes, I believe that Jon is AA reborn. Most importantly, I hope that Melisandre come to the same conclusion, otherwise Jon is finished. Aegon? You mean Young Griff . For me he is a fake. I don't trust Varys and Illiryo. The text imply heavily that he is a fake/mummer/cloth dragon that Dany (slayer of lies) will have to fight (imho, the fight between Dany and Fake Aegon was the original plan for A Dance with Dragons). TPWWP is Dany. Maester Aemon confirms it at the end of AFFC and he is one of the few who knows exactly the prophecy. It is known.

@Eski.Moe: I don't think that we will know the truth about the ToJ untill the last book.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:07 .

[Nerevar-as]

The dragon has three heads, so there have to be that number of Targaryens. I don´t think Aegon is fake, at least from Griff´s POV he doesn´t seem to be. He also has the right hair color (which not all Targys have, read the first Dunk and Egg tale - insane/sane Targys are not 1:1, though there´s at least one for generation).

I´m not sure about Jon at all. It seems there´s a theory about who is his mother from every place Eddard walked through during the rebellion. It does seem L died from childbirth, but that doesn´t mean the baby made it.

And I don´t know what to expect from Martin anymore. Some things are obvious (I´m really surprised people were surprised by Ned´s fate - 1/4 through the book it was clear he wasn´t fit to survive the GoT, Red Wedding was also clear a few POV chapters before). On the other side, although there´s no combat magic, sorcery is getting more over the top than in pulp. So no idea what he´ll do next.

[Addai]

Aegon V was also not mad. Not even a little bit. Nor was his father or Baelor Breakspear.  That's more sane Targaryens that we know about than mad ones. Targ= crackers is by no means an ironclad thing.  The madness is probably an effect of inbreeding, and Jon is only half Targaryen so there is even less risk of that in him than for a silverhead.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:54 .

[TJPags]

FedericoV wrote...

@TJPags and In Exile: I know, the text gives many indirect confirmation to the R+L=J theory. It's the most plausible theory out there about Jon's parentage since it's the one with most confirmation and I would not be surprised if it turns out to be true. But untill Howland Reed tell us what's happened at the ToJ, we don't know for sure and the argument is open to debate. I simply don't buy it maybe even because we discussed that theory for 11 years at Westeros and now I'm tired of it . Seriously, that's my argument:

- Jon does not show the typical Targaryen temperament. Just one little example: we have read a lot about him and he never showed a fascination for fire.
- I do not believe that Ned would take the risk of bringing a child to his house that growing could look exactly like Rhaeghar.
- Jon does not have a single physical feature associated with Valyrian blood.
- That's a meta argument, but the R+L=J story looks too much like an arthurian tale (the once and future king) and that does not fit with GRRM's style. Most importantly, Jon being a Targ does not seem to fit with the plans that George seems to have in mind for him (if he is indeed the Last Hero/AA reborn).
- Parris (GRRM's wife) have said something on the line of "do you really expect something so clichè from George"? Maybe she was just teasing the audience but who knows...

As I said, I do not believe anymore that Jon is Ned's son. I think that he is the illigitimate son of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark. That would fit with Tyrion insight very nicely, and most of the times Tyrion is right.

@Addai67: See above for R+L=J. About Dany and the madness. The only sane Targ we meet so far in the series is Aemon. And he is very old when we meet him so we do not know for sure his exploit as a young dragon. What's the catchprhase? Everytime a Targ borns the gods toss a coin, one side is greatness, the other is madness. For Dany it seems to me that the coin is still spinning in the air (hopefully the side we'll see by the end of the series will be the "greatness" one). But she show many signs of instability and momentary lack of rationality during the books. Mind, it fits the charachter. She is the closer thing to a messianic and religious figure Martin have written:. Coupled that with the difficult life she had (as you have point out) and some sort of mental disorder have to be expected. Most Targ show some signs of madness and instability, even the best ones... btw, that's one of the reason why I believe that Cersei and Jaimie are Targaryen bastards (they are Mad Aerys's illigitimate sons).

@jcainhaze: Yes, I believe that Jon is AA reborn. Most importantly, I hope that Melisandre come to the same conclusion, otherwise Jon is finished. Aegon? You mean Young Griff . For me he is a fake. I don't trust Varys and Illiryo. The text imply heavily that he is a fake/mummer/cloth dragon that Dany (slayer of lies) will have to fight (imho, the fight between Dany and Fake Aegon was the original plan for A Dance with Dragons). TPWWP is Dany. Maester Aemon confirms it at the end of AFFC and he is one of the few who knows exactly the prophecy. It is known.

@Eski.Moe: I don't think that we will know the truth about the ToJ untill the last book.

There are of course arguments that can be made against R=L, and you point out many.  They can, of course be countered, as below:

1.  Lack of temperment can be explained partially by his upbringing - temperment is not always about blood, often - perhaps more often - its about influences around you.  Jon's influences (Ned, Cat, the NOrth) are nothing like those a Targ would get.  However, he does develop a large sense of "I know better than you" during aDwD, which may be a sign of instability, if not madness (a comparison could be made to Dany's desire to save everyone and everything she sees).

2.  Ned made a promise . . .he lives in the North . . never goes to Court . . .the King hardly visits Winterfell . . .Jon is easily hidden when notables arrive (as he was when the King DID visit).

3.  Physical features are rather simple to explain . . .see, Baratheon, Joffrey and that ponderous tome Jon Arryn was reading.

I could go on.

It's a mystery, one which may be moot depending on what happened to Lord Snow in that courtyard . . . although I hope not.  Jon is one character I'd hoped to see survive, even if it turns out he was nothing more than the bastard of Ned and some fishwife or such. And it's a mystery which, if it does not become moot, may become very important . . . personally, I'm not sure Dany has the temperment to rule, and so I find her perhaps more expendable to the story than Jon.

And while cliche, the "dragon has three heads" is mentioned often . . and we did just have a second Targ pop up (who also shows no obvious sign of madness, btw) . . .is it too cliche to pull out a third?

[FedericoV]

Addai67 wrote...

Aegon V was also not mad. Not even a little bit. Nor was his father or Baelor Breakspear.  That's more sane Targaryens that we know about than mad ones. Targ= crackers is by no means an ironclad thing.  The madness is probably an effect of inbreeding, and Jon is only half Targaryen so there is even less risk of that in him than for a silverhead.

Egg is only a child when we meet him in the Dunk & Egg novellas. Yes, he is closer to greatness than madness but remember that he is probably responsible for the tragedy of Summerhall. I'm not saying that every Targ is an Aerys. I'm saying that every Targ shows some sign of madness of instability: greatness and madness are two side of the same coin for what concerns their house. That's due to inbreeding off course (infact, the great bastards of house Blackfyre seems to be more on the "sane" side of things). But even to the "magical" power of their blood (Targs seems to have the "gift" of prophecies since the time of Old Valyria: that's probably the reason why they were able to save their house from the Doom).

Modifié par FedericoV, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:02 .

[FedericoV]

TJPags wrote...

And while cliche, the "dragon has three heads" is mentioned often . . and we did just have a second Targ pop up (who also shows no obvious sign of madness, btw) . . .is it too cliche to pull out a third?

I understand the rest of your points: I won't reply since you make a lot of sense. As I've said, I know I'm in the minority and I know that the text supports the R+L=J theory quite nicely. The most important "proof": the blue rose on the wall of ice that Dany sees during the visions of the House of Undying. The blue rose is the favourite flower of Lyanna Stark. The vision make sense only if Jon is R+L.

Just to say that I'm not blind to evidence, I've just a feeling (supported by my points in the previous post) that George has a different role in mind for Jon than ruling the realm but that's all (I agree that Dany would not be a great ruler, but she does not need to rule: she just have to understand that she needs Tyrion ruling in her place... if she make it to the end of the series, off course, a thing I'm doubtfull about).

So, just let me reply to the "Three heads of the Dragon" thing: GRRM recently explained in an interview that they have not to be proper Targargaryen. Maybe hinting the fact that the remaining two heads of the dragon could be Targ bastards (or "relatives" with Targ blood). In that sense, there are more candidates.

[Addai]

FedericoV wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Aegon V was also not mad. Not even a little bit. Nor was his father or Baelor Breakspear.  That's more sane Targaryens that we know about than mad ones. Targ= crackers is by no means an ironclad thing.  The madness is probably an effect of inbreeding, and Jon is only half Targaryen so there is even less risk of that in him than for a silverhead.

Egg is only a child when we meet him in the Dunk & Egg novellas. Yes, he is closer to greatness than madness but remember that he is probably responsible for the tragedy of Summerhall. I'm not saying that every Targ is an Aerys. I'm saying that every Targ shows some sign of madness of instability: greatness and madness are two side of the same coin for what concerns their house. That's due to inbreeding off course (infact, the great bastards of house Blackfyre seems to be more on the "sane" side of things). But even to the "magical" power of their blood (Targs seems to have the "gift" of prophecies since the time of Old Valyria: that's probably the reason why they were able to save their house from the Doom).

We don't know what happened at Summerhall.  Aegon V's obsession with dragons might be called madness of a sort (and we do see that in him already as a child), but I just think it's a human response to having the burden of ruling a kingdom put on your shoulders, with metaphysical consequences also looming.  Power makes all men mad, that sort of thing.  It is a rational response, not a lunatic one.  The dragons are the means to power par excellence in Westeros- the source of Targaryen power, and their decline mirrors the decline of that dynasty.  This is the tragedy of Rhaegar, too.  He was a nerdy guy who was trying to be a soldier and laboring under the fear that if he didn't fulfill the prophecy of the three headed dragon, not only the Targaryen dynasty but the world could end.

[Seagloom]

Having not read the Dunk and Egg story being referenced here, I have only Targaryens from the main series to reference. Based on them, I am inclined to agree all Targaryens are plagued with a hint of madness. However, that madness is not necessarily instability. Rather, I see it is a sort of megalomania. Every Targaryen in some fashion acts as if they believe in their heart of hearts that they know best. They believe it despite all logic to the contrary.

That attitude contributed to Viserys's downfall and Dany's hardships. Granted, in Dany's case it probably kept her from cracking completely. Believing in her bloodline so tenaciously helped give her strength to survive several trials. Unfortunately, that same confidence may come back to bite her later if she is not careful. There is not much information on Rhaegar; but based on his actions it is easy to surmise he believed in his influence and choices to the extent he was willing to commit a serious social faux pas in a land where politically missteps can get you decapitated.

Could it be a nurture versus nature thing? Possibly. Viserys was old enough to realize what he lost when Robert deposed Aerys. He then went on to fill Dany's head with tales of Targaryen glory. Rhaegar was born when they were still in power. Then we have Aemon who did not exhibit any signs of mental health issues based on what little we know of him.

Of course, with GRRM beating us over the head with clues of how Targaryens are special and all the harping about the blood of dragons, mother of dragons, yada yada, I think it clashes. Targaryens are depicted as so deterministic it is easier to believe they are all missing a chair in their kitchen.

Modifié par Seagloom, 07 janvier 2012 - 07:13 .

[Nameless one7]

Anyone know how long GRRM plans on making A song of fire and ice?

[Seagloom]

There are two more planned books coming: "The Winds of Winter" and "A Dream of Spring". Not that I will be remotely surprised if GRRM tacks on another book or two. Assuming he lives that long. ;p

[Nameless one7]

That's my concern, that he doesn't live long enough to finish it.

[Zanallen]

Nameless one7 wrote...

That's my concern, that he doesn't live long enough to finish it.

He could always pull a Robert Jordan.

[Seagloom]

ASoIaF is actually autobiographical to an extent. GRRM will rise again as an ice zombie after his death and finish penning the series. It will end with the glorious victory of the Others.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 janvier 2012 - 09:18 .

[Nameless one7]

Zanallen wrote...

Nameless one7 wrote...

That's my concern, that he doesn't live long enough to finish it.

He could always pull a Robert Jordan.

That's assuming he gets something that lets him know he's going to the other side.

[Nameless one7]

Seagloom wrote...

ASoIaF is actually autobiographical to an extent. GRRM will rise again as an ice zombie after his death and finish penning the series. It will end with the glorious victory of the Others.

The way the books have been going I wouldn't be suprised.

[Seagloom]

In all honesty, it probably won't happen as long as he doesn't extend the series; or take as long to write the next two as "A Dance with Dragons". If he does, well...

[TJPags]

Lord, oif he takes as long as he has been . . . . well, let's just say I have very limited patience for him lately.

On another note, should he pass before finishing (and I hope he does not) I think it would be impossible for anyone else to finish this series. Unlike RJ, GRRM does NOT work off of notes or any kind of coherent outline.

That said - GO OTHERS!!!!!!!! (yes, I seriously want to see more of the so-far nameless dread)

[Seagloom]

Definitely. There hasn't been nearly enough of them. What the heck have they been doing all this time anyway? Sunbathing? It will be hard to believe them as a credible threat if they don't show up in force until the eleventh hour; only to get routed.

Modifié par Seagloom, 13 janvier 2012 - 07:45 .

[Nameless one7]

*Spoilers*
























So does anyone think Jon is going to get brought back by Melisandre? Also, how would of Ramsay Boolton found out that it was Mance Rayder who rescued Arya Stark?

Modifié par Nameless one7, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:02 .

[TJPags]

@ Seagloom - seriously!!! Have we even SEEN an actual Other since the prologue of Book 1? We've seen wights, sure, but Others?

@ Nameless one - I'm hoping not. Not sure I want to see that much magic employed, when the series started with virtually none. However, my memory of that scene is that, while very indicative of Jon's death, it's not certain (could be wrong, still haven't finished a re-read). So he may simply be nursed back to health, which I can live with.